127 réponses à ce sujet

[Fester Pot]

I can't see a difference in that video from the capture on the left vs. the one on the right.

FP!

[MayCaesar]

Are you mainly referring to the graphics here?  I mean, for the record, I recently tried Dragon Age: Inquisition's single player campaign (I've beaten both DA:O and DA2) and...the controls are significantly worse than NWN, to be frank.  Because the game expects you to control the whole party while having terrible party controls and default companion behavior that might be worse than NWN's all told...

 

Graphics, too, but I am talking not as much about graphics as about controls and mechanics. DAI is not a very good example of modern controls, since its controls were bombarded by criticism ever since it came out. But, say, soon after playing DAO I've always had a hard time returning to NWN games: the difference was so drastic in everything - combat fluidity, controls, visuals, inventory management, crafting, music and sounds...

 

NWN2 was much better in this to me personally. Camera there is quite weird, and ugly turn-based combat is still there, but at least controls are fine, you are not stuck controlling only PC, and visuals are good enough for me to feel that I am playing in a real virtual world, not in some set of ugly tiles pretending to be virtual world.

 

Then, again, my first Bioware RPG was KotoR. I imagine for people growing up on Infinity Engine games NWN graphics and controls might be good. It all depends on the point of reference: what is the threshold for you below which you have a hard time immersing yourself into games.

 

 

One thing I'm wondering, given that I'm a noob when it comes to all these technicalities...

 

Why hasn't NWN graphics been improved as much as some other games with comparable visuals? Take Morrowind, for example.

 

*video*

 

I mean, I don't need such graphics. But just... why? Was it impossible to achieve? Or is it that just nobody cared enough?

 

I might be wrong since I've never really dealt directly with textures and such, but I believe there are some fundamental flows in the engine the game was built around. Texture size is limited in the game, and it is incredibly small by modern standards. For example, the upper dimension of NWN cloak texture is 96 pixels, if I am correct. Modern textures often have resolution 4096x4096 and beyond, so the difference here is 40+ times. When most people have a monitor resolution of, at least, 1920x1080, sometimes higher (I play games in UHD, for example, that is 3840x2160), 96 pixel texture really isn't working well.

[rogueknight333]

...Then, again, my first Bioware RPG was KotoR. I imagine for people growing up on Infinity Engine games NWN graphics and controls might be good. It all depends on the point of reference: what is the threshold for you below which you have a hard time immersing yourself into games...

 

Speaking as someone who came to NWN from the Infinity Engine games, I would say that far from making NWN look good, that experience initially hurt my appreciation for NWN, which seemed to me a much worse game by comparison, with noticeably inferior controls, class balance, and general gameplay. Party control in particular is simplicity itself in the Infinity Engine games, unlike anything in the NWN series, and apparently the Dragon Age series as well (not that I know much about the latter).

 

Your more general point, that one's ability to appreciate a game can be greatly affected by the expectations set up by previous games one has played, is correct however, and certainly an important thing to keep in mind. A graphical style, control system, or style of play one is not accustomed to can certainly be off-putting, and given that there are far more games out there than any one person can play, I can certainly understand people passing on games that have this effect and sticking to what they know. On the other hand, I have often found that if I am willing to work through my initial distaste for an unfamiliar system, I can come to quite enjoy many games that at first did not seem that promising (like NWN itself), coming to appreciate them for what they in fact offer rather than remaining disappointed that they were not what my initial prejudices led me to expect.

[Tchos]

 Party control in particular is simplicity itself in the Infinity Engine games, unlike anything in the NWN series, and apparently the Dragon Age series as well

 

No, party control in NWN2 is the same kind as in the Infinity Engine and Dragon Age: Origins.

 

But I agree that the Infinity Engine games are nicer looking.

[MayCaesar]

Speaking as someone who came to NWN from the Infinity Engine games, I would say that far from making NWN look good, that experience initially hurt my appreciation for NWN, which seemed to me a much worse game by comparison, with noticeably inferior controls, class balance, and general gameplay. Party control in particular is simplicity itself in the Infinity Engine games, unlike anything in the NWN series, and apparently the Dragon Age series as well (not that I know much about the latter).

 

Your more general point, that one's ability to appreciate a game can be greatly affected by the expectations set up by previous games one has played, is correct however, and certainly an important thing to keep in mind. A graphical style, control system, or style of play one is not accustomed to can certainly be off-putting, and given that there are far more games out there than any one person can play, I can certainly understand people passing on games that have this effect and sticking to what they know. On the other hand, I have often found that if I am willing to work through my initial distaste for an unfamiliar system, I can come to quite enjoy many games that at first did not seem that promising (like NWN itself), coming to appreciate them for what they in fact offer rather than remaining disappointed that they were not what my initial prejudices led me to expect.

 

Interesting... I had the exact opposite experience with Infinity Engine games: I really disliked their art style, and I hated the controls with passion. They felt very sluggish and unresponsive. For example, to cast a spell, you need to first press F5 (if I remember correctly), then choose a spell, while in modern games you can choose a spell with one button press. Lack of any proper AI resulted in me pausing the game, issuing orders, unpausing it for a second, pausing again, issuing new orders and so on.

 

Now, an Infinity Engine game that I really liked in its gameplay and visual style was Planescape: Torment. Unfortunately, I played the English version back when I didn't know a word in English, and so the core of the game - the story - I managed to miss entirely. This game has a very high position in my list of games to play in the future.

 

I agree with you on working through initial distaste, and it is actually how I got into Bioware games in the first place. When I first tried KotoR, I disliked the controls and combat so much that I nearly quit 20 minutes into the game. But I decided to give it a chance, and in a couple of hours I was hooked. However, it didn't work for me in Baldur's Gate games: after having spent over 150 hours total in both of them, I still had to always struggle with my distaste. I desperately tried to focus on the story, ignoring other aspects I disliked, but I simply couldn't. In NWN1, I got to the point when I can ignore the things I dislike about the game and focus on the things I like - but that took over 200 hours of walking through 3 official campaigns. In NWN2, on the other hand, it took me maybe 2 hours to adjust to the camera settings and combat style, and I was playing it comfortably. Same in Dragon Age: Origins, everything felt very intuitive and easy to figure out. 

[rogueknight333]

No, party control in NWN2 is the same kind as in the Infinity Engine and Dragon Age: Origins...

 

It tries to be, but it is not implemented nearly as well. If there were no meaningful differences between them surely it would be inexplicable that I, who love the Infinity Engine's party control system, hate NWN2's? And I am hardly alone in preferring one over the other.

[Tchos]

Yeah, it is inexplicable to me, because I love both and don't see the difference.

[OldTimeRadio]

One thing I'm wondering, given that I'm a noob when it comes to all these technicalities...

 

Why hasn't NWN graphics been improved as much as some other games with comparable visuals? Take Morrowind, for example.

 

I mean, I don't need such graphics. But just... why? Was it impossible to achieve? Or is it that just nobody cared enough?

 

Well, yes, there was someone who came along and did something similar in the Neverwinter community.  The result of the first incarnation was called NWShader, which was strictly concerned with Neverwinter Nights 1 and which consisted of a series of builds/versions, some of which were better/more stable than others.  The second iteration of that was a multiple-game enhancer called VoodooShader, which was even more ambitious than the maybe-a-little-too-ambitious NWShader and which eventually appeared to topple over under its own weight.  No fault of it's creator, though.  Very talented and generous guy, in equal portions.  The problem was, after he was out of the picture, no one really had the skill set needed to "pick up the ball" and continue where he left off, even though he'd kindly made the source code available to the community.  I don't mean to mislead you, though, there are probably a lot of people still using NWShader.  Probably versions which have been recommended to them by their PW maintainers or similar.

 

There were a couple of insurmountable technical issues with NWShader, the first regarding a quirk of UV Mapping regarding how NWN orients (or auto-orients, to be more specific) certain ground and water textures on a tile, and which prevented bump-mapping from working well with them.  The second involved how NWN reads data assets from disk and was more a hindrance to further optimization than anything.  And yet, anyone with the skills necessary could not just pick up where PKPeachyKeen left off but also address a number of basic compatibility issues which are popping up more and more frequently as older OpenGL calls are depreciated.  Nothing flashy, but it could probably speed up the game a lot.

 

I hope that someday someone with the appropriate skills joins the community and helps us overcome those issues because I'm not sure the game will wind up getting the much-needed overhaul it deserves.

[Lilura]

It tries to be, but it is not implemented nearly as well.

 

I agree. Infinity Engine full party control is superior for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the ability to choose various rotatable formations.

[MagicalMaster]

But, say, soon after playing DAO I've always had a hard time returning to NWN games: the difference was so drastic in everything - combat fluidity, controls, visuals, inventory management, crafting, music and sounds...

Opposite for me. As bad as some of the problems in DnD/NWN are, I dislike many things in DA:O even more. And DA:O did not have the modding scene with custom content to remotely the degree that NWN did/does. Where, mind you, people completely overhaul a lot of the game on PWs and in some campaigns. Some of my favorite music is from NWN but I can really only name two songs offhand that I recall from DA:O (opening theme -- loved the first 30 seconds or whatever, didn't like the rest as much and Leliana's Song itself).
 

Then, again, my first Bioware RPG was KotoR. I imagine for people growing up on Infinity Engine games NWN graphics and controls might be good. It all depends on the point of reference: what is the threshold for you below which you have a hard time immersing yourself into games.

I don't think "good" is the right term here. "Acceptable" might be better. On a personal level I don't care much about graphics -- shiny stuff is nice but not at the expense of gameplay. I think styles like WoW and TF2 look just fine, even if they're hardly photorealistic. And in something like NWN I'm also considerably zoomed out from the action so the fact my character has blocks for hands matters a lot less.

And NWN2? I literally only played it for like 15-20 minutes before getting so disgusted with the camera/controls that I just never touched the game again. And this is coming from a person who had played a wide variety of N64 games (in multiple genres ranging from Perfect Dark to Starfox 64 to MarioKart 64 to Donkey Kong 64 and so on), many PC games (in multiple genres ranging from Command and Conquer: Tiberian Sun/Red Alert 2 to Lords of Magic to Star Wars: Rogue Squadron to Oregon Trail 1/2/3/4 and so on), and never before been so disgusted with a game's controls that I just thought it wasn't worth playing.

And it certainly took some adjustment to get used to the controls in some of those games...but at least I felt like there was a light at the end of the tunnel if I figured out the controls.

It tries to be, but it is not implemented nearly as well. If there were no meaningful differences between them surely it would be inexplicable that I, who love the Infinity Engine's party control system, hate NWN2's? And I am hardly alone in preferring one over the other.

I agree. Infinity Engine full party control is superior for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the ability to choose various rotatable formations.

Tchos...isn't really good at paying attention to finer details of things, apparently. Just some friendly advice to not waste your breath on the subject.

[Tchos]

Tchos...isn't really good at paying attention to finer details of things, apparently. Just some friendly advice to not waste your breath on the subject.

 

Oh, are we posting what we think of each other now?

[MayCaesar]

Heeey, let's keep this topic cool guys.

 

 

Opposite for me. As bad as some of the problems in DnD/NWN are, I dislike many things in DA:O even more. And DA:O did not have the modding scene with custom content to remotely the degree that NWN did/does. Where, mind you, people completely overhaul a lot of the game on PWs and in some campaigns. Some of my favorite music is from NWN but I can really only name two songs offhand that I recall from DA:O (opening theme -- loved the first 30 seconds or whatever, didn't like the rest as much and Leliana's Song itself).

 

I struggle to think of any musical tracks in NWN1 I would really like. I liked NWN2 vanilla much more in this regard (the main theme, for example, is spectacular), and NWN2: MotB had some of the best tracks I've ever seen in a video game.

 

 

I don't think "good" is the right term here. "Acceptable" might be better. On a personal level I don't care much about graphics -- shiny stuff is nice but not at the expense of gameplay. I think styles like WoW and TF2 look just fine, even if they're hardly photorealistic. And in something like NWN I'm also considerably zoomed out from the action so the fact my character has blocks for hands matters a lot less.

And NWN2? I literally only played it for like 15-20 minutes before getting so disgusted with the camera/controls that I just never touched the game again. And this is coming from a person who had played a wide variety of N64 games (in multiple genres ranging from Perfect Dark to Starfox 64 to MarioKart 64 to Donkey Kong 64 and so on), many PC games (in multiple genres ranging from Command and Conquer: Tiberian Sun/Red Alert 2 to Lords of Magic to Star Wars: Rogue Squadron to Oregon Trail 1/2/3/4 and so on), and never before been so disgusted with a game's controls that I just thought it wasn't worth playing.

And it certainly took some adjustment to get used to the controls in some of those games...but at least I felt like there was a light at the end of the tunnel if I figured out the controls.

 

Hmm, I've never understood what people disliked so much about NWN2 camera. Granted, I started playing when SoZ was already out and camera was overhauled. But now, really, three camera styles in NWN2 are very similar to those in NWN1. I can't stand "Drive mode" in either of the games, but "Exploration mode" works fine for me, and "Tactical mode" is very useful in NWN2, while in NWN1 it is kind of obsolete since you don't have to control your companions.

 

Still, camera in Dragon Age: Origins, WoW, KotoR and such always felt much more intuitive to me than that in NWN2 and NWN1. In DAO, I can hold right button to look around and hold left button at the same time to run forward, changing direction of movement with mouse motion. Unfortunately, in NWN1/2 such simple controls are unavailable.

[MagicalMaster]

Oh, are we posting what we think of each other now?

Nope, just trying to help some friends.

I struggle to think of any musical tracks in NWN1 I would really like. I liked NWN2 vanilla much more in this regard (the main theme, for example, is spectacular), and NWN2: MotB had some of the best tracks I've ever seen in a video game.

Off the top of my head (note that these sometimes aren't the technical song names but rather what I remember them from)?

- Menu main theme
- Aribeth's theme
- Gend's theme
- Forest theme
- Forest Boss theme (that 0:55 to 1:20 part!)
- Morag's theme (especially the 0:38 to 0:53 section where you have the almost "opposing" trumpets and french horns -- I love that bit way too much)
- HotU theme
- Lith My'athar theme (this and the Meph theme practically defined HotU)
- Vixthra's theme
- Illithid City theme
- Mephistopheles's theme

I can think of several more that I like quite a bit, just don't make it into the "stand-out" category, like Aribeth's Battle theme, City Battle theme, Valsharess theme, a *ton* of the atmospheric tracks, etc.

Could even listen to this as a whirlwind journey. Damn, now I'm going to go play through all three official campaigns again just for the music. You can't stop me.

Hmm, I've never understood what people disliked so much about NWN2 camera. Granted, I started playing when SoZ was already out and camera was overhauled. But now, really, three camera styles in NWN2 are very similar to those in NWN1. I can't stand "Drive mode" in either of the games, but "Exploration mode" works fine for me, and "Tactical mode" is very useful in NWN2, while in NWN1 it is kind of obsolete since you don't have to control your companions.

Possibly something they later changed (as you're indicating, a *lot* of people instantly loathed the camera/controls on release, not just me). Note sure exactly what you mean with your terms -- NWN has Driving Camera, Chase Camera, and Top Down Camera. "Drive mode" is presumably "Driving Camera" but not sure about the other two. I play in Top Down mode.

Note that I came to NWN having already played games like Legend of Zelda (which were third person over the shoulder), Command and Conquer (third person "battlefield" camera), and Perfect Dark (first person) -- so all I can say is that it definitely wasn't the camera being "different" than NWN in some way that made me loathe it so much. I'm fine with a variety of cameras, literally no other game has ever sparked that visceral disgust.

Still, camera in Dragon Age: Origins, WoW, KotoR and such always felt much more intuitive to me than that in NWN2 and NWN1. In DAO, I can hold right button to look around and hold left button at the same time to run forward, changing direction of movement with mouse motion. Unfortunately, in NWN1/2 such simple controls are unavailable.

Simple? In NWN you literally can just click where you want to move (which, incidentally, is also how I played DA:O and DA2) or use WASD. Can also rotate camera without having to actually click anything.

That said, in WoW I do play using mouse to move (plus A and D to strafe) because I need my left hand free for using abilities. But I'm not sure "simple" is really the right term here. If anything I'm more annoyed in NWN by the fact that your abilities are bound to F1 through F12 rather than 1 through =. Which means using an ability on Shift + F6, for example, really requires one hand to be pressing Shift and the other to be clicking that ability...which means you can't be holding down left and right mouse buttons to move at the same time. Which is also one reason why I wasn't playing DA:O in that manner (spells/abilities extended past the 0 key, had to click them).

[MayCaesar]

Nope, just trying to help some friends.


Off the top of my head (note that these sometimes aren't the technical song names but rather what I remember them from)?

- Menu main theme
- Aribeth's theme
- Gend's theme
- Forest theme
- Forest Boss theme (that 0:55 to 1:20 part!)
- Morag's theme (especially the 0:38 to 0:53 section where you have the almost "opposing" trumpets and french horns -- I love that bit way too much)
- HotU theme
- Lith My'athar theme (this and the Meph theme practically defined HotU)
- Vixthra's theme
- Illithid City theme
- Mephistopheles's theme

I can think of several more that I like quite a bit, just don't make it into the "stand-out" category, like Aribeth's Battle theme, City Battle theme, Valsharess theme, a *ton* of the atmospheric tracks, etc.

Could even listen to this as a whirlwind journey. Damn, now I'm going to go play through all three official campaigns again just for the music. You can't stop me.

 

How would I put it... I enjoy listening to the tracks you linked, but something is missing in them. Now, I am an amateur jazz/blue composer, so I may be looking at it a bit too "scientifically", but these songs don't sound "unique" to me. Take Gend's Theme, for example: it is a pleasant sounding song with the Renaissance European style, but I can't quite pick anything unique about it that would separate it from other songs of similar style.

 

In comparison, here is the fade combat theme from DAO:

https://www.youtube....h?v=8EIxp9jXHco

The rhythm, the drum sequence, the tone transition at 0:19, many elements from various styles (Afro music, christian music, horror music, Arabic music and so on) - this song immediately settled in my mental music database. And I found much more songs like this in DAO than in most other games, including NWN games. In fact, I would go as far as to say that DAO soundtrack is my favorite overall among all fantasy games (I really-really liked some songs from NWN2: MotB and Witcher 1/2, but not all of them caught my attention).

 

Although, like I said, I really liked some NWN2 tracks, such as these:

https://www.youtube....h?v=ysqQcsS2gGE

https://www.youtube....h?v=qvq2My4pfIc

https://www.youtube....h?v=4V1ZB1rWsS4

https://www.youtube....h?v=3cINoBFdZ3M

 

Note though that I am biased towards modern music which is essentially a mix of multiple different styles, and I get quickly bored with any music of purely particular style, so this might affect my perception.

 

 

Simple? In NWN you literally can just click where you want to move (which, incidentally, is also how I played DA:O and DA2) or use WASD. Can also rotate camera without having to actually click anything.

That said, in WoW I do play using mouse to move (plus A and D to strafe) because I need my left hand free for using abilities. But I'm not sure "simple" is really the right term here. If anything I'm more annoyed in NWN by the fact that your abilities are bound to F1 through F12 rather than 1 through =. Which means using an ability on Shift + F6, for example, really requires one hand to be pressing Shift and the other to be clicking that ability...which means you can't be holding down left and right mouse buttons to move at the same time. Which is also one reason why I wasn't playing DA:O in that manner (spells/abilities extended past the 0 key, had to click them).

 

To click on the ground, you need to incline your camera down to see the floor, and this is my main issue with mouse-clicking movement in 3D games. I see you said that you use Top Down camera most of the time, but I cannot do so in a 3D game such as NWN2 or DAO, I want to enjoy the scenery as I would if I were the character (I don't mind using Top Down camera in combat though). Driving Camera (if I correctly remember what it does) in NWN has the problem of delayed response: if you are standing in place and want to turn right, your character won't do so immediately, and it will take time for it to rotate - this makes this mode almost unusable for me. And Chase Camera is counter-intuitive to me, since I prefer sharing the sight with my character for the sake of immersion, rather than watching it moving from the side, as if I was watching a movie.

 

Controls such as in WoW, DAO, KotoR and so on are my favorite. Then, again, my first RPG with 3rd person view was KotoR (accurately saying, it was my second game, but the first one was too obscure and different to take it into account), so that might have influenced my taste.

[allen179gmail]

How about 'Pool of Radiance'? 2d and keyboard play.

[allen179gmail]

May be the 'quote' button will work this time. How about 'Pool of Radiance'? 2d and keyboard play.

 

I wanted to quote Lilura Pong post

[MagicalMaster]

How would I put it... I enjoy listening to the tracks you linked, but something is missing in them. Now, I am an amateur jazz/blue composer, so I may be looking at it a bit too "scientifically", but these songs don't sound "unique" to me. Take Gend's Theme, for example: it is a pleasant sounding song with the Renaissance European style, but I can't quite pick anything unique about it that would separate it from other songs of similar style.

For the record, I didn't say it (or any of the songs, Gend's is mainly on there as I found it very recognizable) was incredibly unique -- just that I really liked them and sprung to mind. Are there other songs that sound fairly similar? Sure, but I can still easily recognize those NWN songs as being from NWN and enjoy listening to them overall. I remember them even years later. I remember music from a lot of games too, for the record, not just NWN (ME2 has some of my favorite music).
 

In comparison, here is the fade combat theme from DAO:
https://www.youtube....h?v=8EIxp9jXHco
The rhythm, the drum sequence, the tone transition at 0:19, many elements from various styles (Afro music, christian music, horror music, Arabic music and so on) - this song immediately settled in my mental music database.

I don't know what to say here. I don't really care about that Fade combat theme. It's not *bad* I guess but I don't find it memorable/interesting. On the flip side, the first 50ish seconds of the main theme made me think "This is going to be awesome." The rest of the song is fine, I guess, but it's a massive shift in tone from the French Horn (I think?) and vocals of the first third of the song and I don't like it nearly as much. So perhaps you are looking at it "too scientifically" in the sense that you're more interested/impressed by complexity/blending while I'm interested in something I think sounds cool (which, mind you, can range from peaceful atmospheric melodies to reckless battle tempos within video games and pretty much any genre but rap/country overall -- though in all fairness there have been a select few rap/country songs I liked).
 

Note though that I am biased towards modern music which is essentially a mix of multiple different styles, and I get quickly bored with any music of purely particular style, so this might affect my perception.

I think it's affecting your perception to a massive degree. Again, the NWN2 tracks aren't *bad* but none of them made me think "This is awesome." Out of curiosity, what do you make out of this song and this other song from ME2?
 

To click on the ground, you need to incline your camera down to see the floor, and this is my main issue with mouse-clicking movement in 3D games. I see you said that you use Top Down camera most of the time, but I cannot do so in a 3D game such as NWN2 or DAO, I want to enjoy the scenery as I would if I were the character (I don't mind using Top Down camera in combat though).

In NWN, I use Top Down *all* of the time. In DA:O/DA2 I had the camera in a position extremely similar to NWN's "Top Down" as well. Even WoW is the same way -- scrolled out and overhead at an angle. I'd also point out that while NWN might not be as 3Dish as NWN2 or DAO, it's still 3D in the sense that there's a Z axis and you can look at an object from any angle -- it's not a game where the developer can just move pixels up on the Y axis and give them "priority" over the background so it "looks" 3D (and the player can't rotate the camera to discover the deception).

Controls such as in WoW, DAO, KotoR and so on are my favorite. Then, again, my first RPG with 3rd person view was KotoR (accurately saying, it was my second game, but the first one was too obscure and different to take it into account), so that might have influenced my taste.

Which is very weird to hear for me since (I've never played KOTOR) I have the same general camera style in WoW/DAO as NWN. And I used the same controls in DAO and NWN (hell, I even clicked to move every now and then in WoW too).

[MayCaesar]

For the record, I didn't say it (or any of the songs, Gend's is mainly on there as I found it very recognizable) was incredibly unique -- just that I really liked them and sprung to mind. Are there other songs that sound fairly similar? Sure, but I can still easily recognize those NWN songs as being from NWN and enjoy listening to them overall. I remember them even years later. I remember music from a lot of games too, for the record, not just NWN (ME2 has some of my favorite music).

 

Don't get me wrong, I have a good musical memory, and I will immediately recognize any song from NWN, should I hear it. However, among thousands of songs I have in my memory, very few NWN songs take a more significant place than just "heard, moved on". Again, I am not saying that NWN music is bad, it is just that it is not to my taste.

 

 

I don't know what to say here. I don't really care about that Fade combat theme. It's not *bad* I guess but I don't find it memorable/interesting. On the flip side, the first 50ish seconds of the main theme made me think "This is going to be awesome." The rest of the song is fine, I guess, but it's a massive shift in tone from the French Horn (I think?) and vocals of the first third of the song and I don't like it nearly as much. So perhaps you are looking at it "too scientifically" in the sense that you're more interested/impressed by complexity/blending while I'm interested in something I think sounds cool (which, mind you, can range from peaceful atmospheric melodies to reckless battle tempos within video games and pretty much any genre but rap/country overall -- though in all fairness there have been a select few rap/country songs I liked).

 

The problem in my case is that music has been a major part of my life since I was a kid. I've heard so many different songs from various styles that only something with some unique elements can catch my attention these days. As such, I now look at the interjections of various styles and national music cultures. In NWN, the music mostly has the traditional European style, with some minor elements from other styles, and there is little in this style that I haven't already heard countless times (especially given that first 6 years of my "musical career" I was forced to play in exactly traditional European style, as my instructor wasn't interested in anything else, and by the end of this period I climbed the walls trying to escape from it). In Dragon Age: Origins, it is much more varied in terms of styles, and I don't think there is a single song that doesn't embody many styles simultaneously in it. In terms of "pure quality", I'd say NWN and DAO music is similar, but in terms of my subjective taste I definitely prefer DAO, by far.

 

 

I think it's affecting your perception to a massive degree. Again, the NWN2 tracks aren't *bad* but none of them made me think "This is awesome." Out of curiosity, what do you make out of this song and this other song from ME2?

 

Hmm, in Mass Effect series, I think, music incredibly well fits the atmosphere and even creates it sometimes - I actually think this is one of the best series in terms of atmospheric music. It, again, is a little bit more uniform in terms of styles than in DAO though, so, as a standalone music, it is of not much interest to me. It is mostly electronic music of the kind that was mostly played in 80-s-90-s. Tali soundtrack really enhanced the atmosphere, but I wouldn't say I particularly liked it in itself. The Suicide Mission score, of course, is a different story, it is truly incredible in all regards. I liked Mass Effect 3 ending music even more.

 

By the way, I don't like MMOs, but World of Warcraft has some of my favorite music tracks, not just in games, but overall. 

https://www.youtube....h?v=VhhvWeXHjP0

https://www.youtube....h?v=No6jHwe0QoQ

They used the real orchestras to perform this music, which is something very few video game composers do nowadays, preferring to compose the music in parts, electronically. Which is a shame: there is something about real concert hall acoustics that no electronic instrument can simulate. Another MMO with stunning orchestra music is Guild Wars 2.

https://www.youtube....h?v=nT4lnDuI4Mc

 

 

In NWN, I use Top Down *all* of the time. In DA:O/DA2 I had the camera in a position extremely similar to NWN's "Top Down" as well. Even WoW is the same way -- scrolled out and overhead at an angle. I'd also point out that while NWN might not be as 3Dish as NWN2 or DAO, it's still 3D in the sense that there's a Z axis and you can look at an object from any angle -- it's not a game where the developer can just move pixels up on the Y axis and give them "priority" over the background so it "looks" 3D (and the player can't rotate the camera to discover the deception).


Which is very weird to hear for me since (I've never played KOTOR) I have the same general camera style in WoW/DAO as NWN. And I used the same controls in DAO and NWN (hell, I even clicked to move every now and then in WoW too).

 

This might be one of the primary reasons why I dislike NWN graphics so much: it is 3D, and yet, it is not. In 3D games, I like enjoying the scenery, so, unless I am in combat, I always use a 3rd person view "from the back" - and in NWN it doesn't work well.

[BelgarathMTH]

My answer to the OP is an emphatic yes.

 

I was going to join the discussion about music and post some links, but there seems to be no way to do it. The link button is not only non-responsive, but it crashes the website such that I have to shut down my browser to get out of it. It does not accept the "ok" button after I paste my link, and the "cancel" and "x" buttons do not work. That's a bit discouraging that I can't link anything if I want to participate in discussions here.

 

How did you link your musical links, MagicalMaster?

[Grani]

 

This might be one of the primary reasons why I dislike NWN graphics so much: it is 3D, and yet, it is not. In 3D games, I like enjoying the scenery, so, unless I am in combat, I always use a 3rd person view "from the back" - and in NWN it doesn't work well.

 

Not that there's anything wrong with personal opinions... but I don't get how this could be such a significant flaw.

 

Actually, it is 3D in every sense of this word but one. This one being that you cannot have a spot that's walkable at different heights. It is 3D for all other purposes. Rotating camera? Check. Objects of different heights? Check.

 

I mean, mostly when people discuss pros and cons of 2D and 3D games, it's all about visuals, which are fully 3D in NWN.

 

Also, you said you use a 3rd person view "from the back" which doesn't work well in NWN. I strongly disagree - I love the third person perspective as well and haven't had any significant issues. 3rd person camera and WSAD controls fall a bit short only during combat, but for these situations you need a mouse anyway, so why not move with it while you're at it. Plus you said you don't use this view in combat anyway. What's so bad about 3rd person view?

[Shadooow]

Not that there's anything wrong with personal opinions... but I don't get how this could be such a significant flaw.

 

Actually, it is 3D in every sense of this word but one. This one being that you cannot have a spot that's walkable at different heights. It is 3D for all other purposes. Rotating camera? Check. Objects of different heights? Check.

 

I mean, mostly when people discuss pros and cons of 2D and 3D games, it's all about visuals, which are fully 3D in NWN.

 

Also, you said you use a 3rd person view "from the back" which doesn't work well in NWN. I strongly disagree - I love the third person perspective as well and haven't had any significant issues. 3rd person camera and WSAD controls fall a bit short only during combat, but for these situations you need a mouse anyway, so why not move with it while you're at it. Plus you said you don't use this view in combat anyway. What's so bad about 3rd person view?

3rd person view really sucks in NWN, and the moment you use mouse to rotate camera the mode get messed up afaik, + since you have to use mouse the 3rd person mode or "driving camera" doesn't really offer enough view to be able to click on enemy you want.

 

There is a camera hack that allows to play 1st person view and that is quite interesting but has same drawback even bigger. That wouldnt be that big problem tho if it was able to controll the game better via kayeboard just like any mmorpg.

[icywind1980]

You guys are really just nitpicking the visuals and limitations of a 13 year old game at this point. A game which, I should remind you all, has given us countless hours of entertainment, not to mention a vivid and intelligent community. So the only answer at this point, to echo Belgarath, is a million times yes. There is nothing about this game that could diminish the amount of worthwhileness of playing it.

[Grani]

3rd person view really sucks in NWN, and the moment you use mouse to rotate camera the mode get messed up afaik, + since you have to use mouse the 3rd person mode or "driving camera" doesn't really offer enough view to be able to click on enemy you want.

 

There is a camera hack that allows to play 1st person view and that is quite interesting but has same drawback even bigger. That wouldnt be that big problem tho if it was able to controll the game better via kayeboard just like any mmorpg.

 

It's a matter of subjective opinions at worst. I can't imagine playing NWN in a different way that with a 3rd person camera setting.

You say it doesn't offer enough view to be able to click on an enemy I want, but I don't have such troubles - I simply zoom out and can pretty much click whatever I want.

[MayCaesar]

Not that there's anything wrong with personal opinions... but I don't get how this could be such a significant flaw.

 

Actually, it is 3D in every sense of this word but one. This one being that you cannot have a spot that's walkable at different heights. It is 3D for all other purposes. Rotating camera? Check. Objects of different heights? Check.

 

I mean, mostly when people discuss pros and cons of 2D and 3D games, it's all about visuals, which are fully 3D in NWN.

 

Also, you said you use a 3rd person view "from the back" which doesn't work well in NWN. I strongly disagree - I love the third person perspective as well and haven't had any significant issues. 3rd person camera and WSAD controls fall a bit short only during combat, but for these situations you need a mouse anyway, so why not move with it while you're at it. Plus you said you don't use this view in combat anyway. What's so bad about 3rd person view?

 

The thing is, the way NWN zones are built and played doesn't let me think of it as true 3D. In comparison, Doom was pseudo-3D too (3D representation of a 2D map), but the gameplay was built in such a way that you constantly moved in all 3 directions most of the time, plus you could fall in pure 3D. I didn't have any problems with thinking of Doom as 3D game. However, in NWN all zones are built of 2D tiles with 3D models built on top of them. Different tiles can have different heights, but each tile is large enough for it to not feel natural - to me, at least. I see NWN as a 2D game with 3D representation, and it really conflicts with what I see with my eyes. I can see an amazing scenery, but, since it is blocky due to being made of tiles, my suspension of disbelief is not enough.

 

One of the biggest reasons I like NWN2 so much better than NWN1 is that outdoor areas there are not made of tiles. Again, they are not pure 3D, but, since the height can be constantly changing in all points of the map, it feels more like true 3D. Indoor areas are still made of tiles there, but indoor areas are pretty much supposed to be 2D most of the time, so it is not an issue.

[Grani]

The thing is, the way NWN zones are built and played doesn't let me think of it as true 3D. In comparison, Doom was pseudo-3D too (3D representation of a 2D map), but the gameplay was built in such a way that you constantly moved in all 3 directions most of the time, plus you could fall in pure 3D. I didn't have any problems with thinking of Doom as 3D game. However, in NWN all zones are built of 2D tiles with 3D models built on top of them. Different tiles can have different heights, but each tile is large enough for it to not feel natural - to me, at least. I see NWN as a 2D game with 3D representation, and it really conflicts with what I see with my eyes. I can see an amazing scenery, but, since it is blocky due to being made of tiles, my suspension of disbelief is not enough.

 

One of the biggest reasons I like NWN2 so much better than NWN1 is that outdoor areas there are not made of tiles. Again, they are not pure 3D, but, since the height can be constantly changing in all points of the map, it feels more like true 3D. Indoor areas are still made of tiles there, but indoor areas are pretty much supposed to be 2D most of the time, so it is not an issue.

 

To each their own. Still, I'm intrigued. You said that you love 3rd person perspective and that gameplay in NWN is not as good as it should be with this setting, yet NWN2 does not have any sort of 3rd person camera (one of the reasons I dislike it) and you seem to have no problems with it. I mean, surely a bad implementation of an (optional) feature can't be worse than the lack of this feature altogether, can it?

 

As for the outdoor areas... there are pros and cons. NWN2's might look better, but they are a hell to build. TIme-consuming and outright frustrating at moments. NWN1's are easy and fast to create.