127 réponses à ce sujet

[MayCaesar]

To each their own. Still, I'm intrigued. You said that you love 3rd person perspective and that gameplay in NWN is not as good as it should be with this setting, yet NWN2 does not have any sort of 3rd person camera (one of the reasons I dislike it) and you seem to have no problems with it. I mean, surely a bad implementation of an (optional) feature can't be worse than the lack of this feature altogether, can it?

 

As for the outdoor areas... there are pros and cons. NWN2's might look better, but they are a hell to build. TIme-consuming and outright frustrating at moments. NWN1's are easy and fast to create.

 

Hmm, I'm not sure I understand your comment about the lack of 3rd person camera in NWN2. As far as I'm concerned, NWN1 and NWN2 (in its latest version) have pretty similar camera settings.

 

Yes, the areas in NWN2 take eternity to build and polish. But the result feels very intimate. While tile-based areas in NWN1 have always looked generic to me personally. I've never really dug through community-made tiles in NWN1 though; I suspect one can do a lot with custom tiles. 

[Grani]

Hmm, I'm not sure I understand your comment about the lack of 3rd person camera in NWN2. As far as I'm concerned, NWN1 and NWN2 (in its latest version) have pretty similar camera settings.

 

Yes, the areas in NWN2 take eternity to build and polish. But the result feels very intimate. While tile-based areas in NWN1 have always looked generic to me personally. I've never really dug through community-made tiles in NWN1 though; I suspect one can do a lot with custom tiles. 

 

Oh, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you can have a 3rd person camera setting in NWN2 that allows for simple WSAD controls with auto-rotating camera? Or am I missing something?

[NWN_baba yaga]

I've never really dug through community-made tiles in NWN1 though;

 

That is the problem. 

[MayCaesar]

Oh, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you can have a 3rd person camera setting in NWN2 that allows for simple WSAD controls with auto-rotating camera? Or am I missing something?

 

There is "Driving Mode" camera that functions essentially like similar camera in NWN1 (I don't remember what it's called though). WASD controls, camera rotating along with your character and so on. I know that upon release the camera settings were much more limited than after Storm of Zehir expansion, so this might be the reason you didn't find a 3rd person camera if you haven't played since then.

 

 

That is the problem. 

 

Perhaps... But I still cannot fully accept the tile-by-tile area building, even if something spectacular can be made with it.

[MayCaesar]

I was going to join the discussion about music and post some links, but there seems to be no way to do it. The link button is not only non-responsive, but it crashes the website such that I have to shut down my browser to get out of it. It does not accept the "ok" button after I paste my link, and the "cancel" and "x" buttons do not work. That's a bit discouraging that I can't link anything if I want to participate in discussions here.

 

How did you link your musical links, MagicalMaster?

 

Hmm, this is weird. Have you tried running the website in a different browser?

Anyway, you don't really have to use the link button. Just post your links as text, maybe putting a space after http, so the website doesn't automatically block them.

[Grani]

There is "Driving Mode" camera that functions essentially like similar camera in NWN1 (I don't remember what it's called though). WASD controls, camera rotating along with your character and so on. I know that upon release the camera settings were much more limited than after Storm of Zehir expansion, so this might be the reason you didn't find a 3rd person camera if you haven't played since then.

 

Ah, good to know. I played the game with SoZ installed, but it's true that earlier than that I played it with no expansions and that might be when I got my impressions. Anyway, there are other reasons why I dislike NWN2, but that's not the purpose of this thread, I guess.

[BelgarathMTH]

MaeCaesar, thanks, but the links won't post as text either. I know the text is copied into my clipboard, because I can paste it into a document, but when I click "paste" here, nothing happens. I suspect my McAfee security software is involved. but I don't want to take the chance of coming to this site with that disabled.

 

It's not that huge a deal. I appreciate your trying to help.

 

[olnorton]

MaeCaesar, thanks, but the links won't post as text either. I know the text is copied into my clipboard, because I can paste it into a document, but when I click "paste" here, nothing happens.

Hit the little paperclip on the top left hand corner of the reply box.

[MagicalMaster]

Don't get me wrong, I have a good musical memory, and I will immediately recognize any song from NWN, should I hear it.

I won't.

I mean it -- I'm sure there's at least a few songs I won't recognize and, frankly, I wouldn't recognize most music from most video games I've played. And I think I *still* care more about the music than the average person in my experience.

Just kind of seems like a wine expert complaining about how he was served a '68 rather than a '67 or something.
 

The Suicide Mission score, of course, is a different story, it is truly incredible in all regards. I liked Mass Effect 3 ending music even more.

Suicide Mission is amazing, yeah. Was there a specific song in the ME3 ending (in all fairness I've mainly been trying to forget the ME3 ending for well over a year now)?
 

By the way, I don't like MMOs, but World of Warcraft has some of my favorite music tracks, not just in games, but overall.

You should look at some of the recent music if you haven't -- stuff like this song seems to be to your taste.
 

How did you link your musical links, MagicalMaster?

I got annoyed enough with the Bioware forums that I flipped the "raw" switch in the upper left (above the "bold" button). At which point you just do something like this

[ url=www.thisisawebsite.com]click this text[ /url]

Except you remove the space before the u and then before the /.

However, in NWN all zones are built of 2D tiles with 3D models built on top of them. Different tiles can have different heights, but each tile is large enough for it to not feel natural - to me, at least. I see NWN as a 2D game with 3D representation, and it really conflicts with what I see with my eyes. I can see an amazing scenery, but, since it is blocky due to being made of tiles, my suspension of disbelief is not enough.

Isn't there a difference between "natural looking" and "3D?" You could easily make a game with NWN's general tile system that is in fact fully 3D (instead of tiles in the X and Y coordinates you have tiles in the X, Y, and Z coordinates).

[Verilazic]

Most everything has been covered at this point, and I'm not too interested in reading about specific disagreements over aesthetic details (Though I always find posts by OldTimeRadio to be really educational). I will mention one interesting comparison: Skyrim and modding versus NWN.

 

If you enjoyed Skyrim, you dabbled in some modding, right? NWN's custom content is even more extensive than Skyrim, and as such, it's an even deeper rabbit hole you can fall down. When I first got Skyrim this spring, I fell in the hole for a couple months. With NWN, I get into building and hakpaks, and I don't come up for half a year... every year or two. Whether you consider that a good or a bad thing will probably be a big hint as to whether you'll like NWN. I find custom content in NWN to be easier to get into than Skyrim, and at least as complex if you decide you want to go deep. What's the phrase? Easy to learn, hard to master, while I found Skyrim to simply be hard to learn, hard to master. I never would've even tried modding Skyrim if I hadn't had so much experience with NWN.

[MayCaesar]

I won't.

I mean it -- I'm sure there's at least a few songs I won't recognize and, frankly, I wouldn't recognize most music from most video games I've played. And I think I *still* care more about the music than the average person in my experience.

Just kind of seems like a wine expert complaining about how he was served a '68 rather than a '67 or something.

 

It might seem that way, but it really comes natural with musical experience. The thing is, the overwhelming majority of music (like 99.99%, I'd say) is based on very simple rules and patterns, which are all described clearly in musical theory. Know the theory well enough, have a decent share of experience in listening and playing - and music becomes very clear and logical. It usually takes me 3-4 listenings to a medium sized musical track (5 minutes or so) to learn it intuitively by heart, and after that it is ingrained in my brain forever. It is just one of those things that seem impossible at the first glance, but become natural once you've learned some underlying principles.

 

 

Suicide Mission is amazing, yeah. Was there a specific song in the ME3 ending (in all fairness I've mainly been trying to forget the ME3 ending for well over a year now)?

 

The entire song was amazing, in my opinion:

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=_zQrw4zvHaQ

 

I must confess though that one of the major reasons I enjoy it so much is that the melody is played on piano. Piano sound always makes my heart melt.

 

On a side note, I've never had any trouble with ME3 ending.

 

 

Isn't there a difference between "natural looking" and "3D?" You could easily make a game with NWN's general tile system that is in fact fully 3D (instead of tiles in the X and Y coordinates you have tiles in the X, Y, and Z coordinates).

 

Well, let's separate purely visual representation and physical "skeleton". The representation is in 3D, but the "skeleton" is 2D: set of 2D tiles represented visually in 3D. Somehow it feels wrong to me, and I always see NWN1 unconsciously as 2D made into 3D by some ugly trick.

[Lazarus Magni]

To answer the OP question is this worth playing?

 

That depends on your definition of "worth it".

 

It certainly doesn't have the graphics or powerful game engines of modern day games.

 

But it still remains the one and only game out there that you (and the community at large) can modify this extensively (to make it truly your own) AND share collectively with a player experience online.

 

Games like fallout, and skyrim, sure you can also modify (and they have better graphics), and are awesome for those reasons, but you can't share and play that experience together like you can in NWN in an online format (e.g. PWs.)

 

It still remains the one defining feature that sets NWN aside from any other game out there, even if it is nearing 15 years old.

 

So you tell me, is it still worth playing?

[MagicalMaster]

It is just one of those things that seem impossible at the first glance, but become natural once you've learned some underlying principles.

If you say so.

I'm not trying to be dismissive, I'm just not sure what else to say. Your experience/attitude/approach is just so vastly different from that of the vast, vast majority of people -- we don't really have a good way to process what you're saying.
 

On a side note, I've never had any trouble with ME3 ending.

Out of curiosity, did you play it before or after the "Extended Cut?" Regardless, this isn't an appropriate venue to slice apart the ending at length but can PM me if you really want (though I doubt I have anything really new to add compared to everything that's been said on the ME3 forums hundreds of thousands of times).
 

Well, let's separate purely visual representation and physical "skeleton". The representation is in 3D, but the "skeleton" is 2D: set of 2D tiles represented visually in 3D. Somehow it feels wrong to me, and I always see NWN1 unconsciously as 2D made into 3D by some ugly trick.

I'm not sure you get what I'm saying -- I'm saying you could easily have a system using tiles/boxes/etc with a 3D skeleton. Regardless, I'm not sure there's anything really to be gained by discussing this further as, regardless of whether you're being accurate/honest about your distaste, your distaste will presumably exist.

[MayCaesar]

If you say so.

I'm not trying to be dismissive, I'm just not sure what else to say. Your experience/attitude/approach is just so vastly different from that of the vast, vast majority of people -- we don't really have a good way to process what you're saying.

 

Well, the majority of people never learned anything about musical theory. Which is a shame: with the way music is incorporated in everyone's life these days, I think teaching musical theory in schools is a must. It used to be required in schools and universities of Europe a few centuries ago, but then people started caring more about things useful in professions and less about helping people live their everyday lives well and develop versatile skills and cultural traits.

 

I don't think I will be mistaken if I say that every single person that has played some (tonal) musical instrument for more than, say, a couple of years, is able to memorize any 5 minutes long song after hearing it for a few times.

 

 

Out of curiosity, did you play it before or after the "Extended Cut?" Regardless, this isn't an appropriate venue to slice apart the ending at length but can PM me if you really want (though I doubt I have anything really new to add compared to everything that's been said on the ME3 forums hundreds of thousands of times).

 

I played it twice before Extended Cut appeared, and, I believe, 5 times after that (or 4, I'm not sure). Never understood the complaints. But I understood long time ago one thing: trust your opinion more than anyone else's. If a million people say the ending is bad, and I liked it, then it is good for me.

[Grani]

I don't think I will be mistaken if I say that every single person that has played some (tonal) musical instrument for more than, say, a couple of years, is able to memorize any 5 minutes long song after hearing it for a few times.

 

Confirmed. Kind of. I have played piano since I was 6 years old and I have no problems memorizing music. What actually surprised me is MM's statement that he wouldn't recognize all of NWN's soundtrack despite having played this game for a long time.

[Elhanan]

Confirmed. Kind of. I have played piano since I was 6 years old and I have no problems memorizing music. What actually surprised me is MM's statement that he wouldn't recognize all of NWN's soundtrack despite having played this game for a long time.

Not surprising; also tend to notice and recall tracks that are annoying and irritating, such as a certain tavern selection, or having some Techno music play over the radio in my Normandy cabin. A great soundtrack augments the game, and can be pleasantly be enjoyed without becoming engrossed in it by itself.

[MayCaesar]

Confirmed. Kind of. I have played piano since I was 6 years old and I have no problems memorizing music. What actually surprised me is MM's statement that he wouldn't recognize all of NWN's soundtrack despite having played this game for a long time.

 

It surprised me a bit too. I've seen so many people without any musical knowledge or experience humming songs they've heard somewhere, in perfect tonality, rhythm, lyrics. Of course, my observations are biased in that there is no way to tell if someone is unable to do it, but it is easy to tell if someone can do it. Still, I thought everyone could, at least, remember some parts of the songs they hear multiple times automatically.

[MagicalMaster]

I don't think I will be mistaken if I say that every single person that has played some (tonal) musical instrument for more than, say, a couple of years, is able to memorize any 5 minutes long song after hearing it for a few times.

I played the piano, violin, and/or alto saxophone for over nine consecutive years (perhaps more).

Never understood the complaints. But I understood long time ago one thing: trust your opinion more than anyone else's. If a million people say the ending is bad, and I liked it, then it is good for me.

Of course, going with your logic, I can completely dismiss your opinion as well

Me, I'd be at least curious as to why so many people felt so strongly in a manner contrary to my opinion -- especially when those people are dedicated fans who would normally be promoting/defending the game.

What actually surprised me is MM's statement that he wouldn't recognize all of NWN's soundtrack despite having played this game for a long time.

You do realize there's over 80 songs, without even counting the premium module tracks? If you played Tavern track #6 or Rural music #4 (note: I'm just making those numbers/names up to illustrate my point, I may actually recognize those specific songs) I'm not confident I'd be able to place it. Then throw in custom music for mods/PWs to keep straight and, of course, all the music from other games.

[MayCaesar]

I played the piano, violin, and/or alto saxophone for over nine consecutive years (perhaps more).

 

Hmm... This is really surprising to me. I thought memorizing songs one hears becomes natural after some musical experience. Perhaps I was wrong. Still, the fact that you won't recognize some of the songs seems strange to me.

 

Although your answer to Grani's comment gives me impression that we are talking about different things. If you play some track from Neverwinter Nights, of course I won't be able to say what it is called (especially since I don't know the titles of most of them), and for most I probably won't be able to say where exactly I heard them. Also, if you ask me what game I heard a certain track in, I might sometimes be taken aback, if that particular track didn't impress me and I didn't really care about it (at least, if last time I heard it was many years ago). But if someone plays a track and I've heard it before more than a couple of times, I will immediately be able to say, "I know this song", and I will, in almost every case, be able to recall it in high detail.

 

 

Of course, going with your logic, I can completely dismiss your opinion as well

Me, I'd be at least curious as to why so many people felt so strongly in a manner contrary to my opinion -- especially when those people are dedicated fans who would normally be promoting/defending the game.

 

Of course you can, and you will be right to do so. You have no reason to like the ending just because I liked it. Different people like different things. If someone likes cabbage, and I hate it with disgust, then, even if that guy will find 2 more billion people signing a paper in which they state that cabbage is awesome, it won't make me like cabbage, right?

 

I am not interested in the slightest why someone would dislike something I like. Why should I purposefully read something negative about something I like? It is like, I don't know, loving your girlfriend and asking your friends to write an essay on what they dislike in her. Someone might be a fan of it, but that someone isn't me.

[MagicalMaster]

But if someone plays a track and I've heard it before more than a couple of times, I will immediately be able to say, "I know this song", and I will, in almost every case, be able to recall it in high detail.

That I can generally do.

Of course you can, and you will be right to do so. You have no reason to like the ending just because I liked it. Different people like different things.

You were acting intelligent up until now, are you suddenly going to reverse that trend? That goes doubly given your knowledge/experience with analyzing music -- just like your music, there's more involved than simply liking or disliking something like ME3's ending. It's not a matter of chocolate vs vanilla preference that has no logical reasoning involved. If Return of the Jedi ended with the Emperor revealing he was really Yoda all along, the whole thing was a test for Luke, and everyone lived happily ever after would you claim that anyone upset at the ending was solely acting on "different people like different things?"

By your logic if ME3 booted up, showed a picture of Commander Shepard, and then said "The End" before running the credits no one could complain because different people like different things. Maybe it's just really ahead of its time!

[MayCaesar]

You were acting intelligent up until now, are you suddenly going to reverse that trend? That goes doubly given your knowledge/experience with analyzing music -- just like your music, there's more involved than simply liking or disliking something like ME3's ending. It's not a matter of chocolate vs vanilla preference that has no logical reasoning involved. If Return of the Jedi ended with the Emperor revealing he was really Yoda all along, the whole thing was a test for Luke, and everyone lived happily ever after would you claim that anyone upset at the ending was solely acting on "different people like different things?"

By your logic if ME3 booted up, showed a picture of Commander Shepard, and then said "The End" before running the credits no one could complain because different people like different things. Maybe it's just really ahead of its time!

 

If you are going to twist my words like this, then I am not going to continue this discussion. It is pointless.

[MagicalMaster]

If you are going to twist my words like this, then I am not going to continue this discussion. It is pointless.

You said, exact quote:

"You have no reason to like the ending just because I liked it. Different people like different things. If someone likes cabbage, and I hate it with disgust, then, even if that guy will find 2 more billion people signing a paper in which they state that cabbage is awesome, it won't make me like cabbage, right?"

There's no logical reason for liking or not liking cabbage -- it literally is a matter of taste. Same thing as preferring vanilla or chocolate.

You're then stating that this is analogous to liking or not liking the ME3 ending -- that it is solely a matter of taste. You either like it or you don't, there's no actual reasoning behind it.

How am I twisting your words?

[MayCaesar]

You said, exact quote:

"You have no reason to like the ending just because I liked it. Different people like different things. If someone likes cabbage, and I hate it with disgust, then, even if that guy will find 2 more billion people signing a paper in which they state that cabbage is awesome, it won't make me like cabbage, right?"

There's no logical reason for liking or not liking cabbage -- it literally is a matter of taste. Same thing as preferring vanilla or chocolate.

You're then stating that this is analogous to liking or not liking the ME3 ending -- that it is solely a matter of taste. You either like it or you don't, there's no actual reasoning behind it.

How am I twisting your words?

 

There is a logical reason for liking or disliking everything. You like cabbage when eating it causes chemical reactions in your body associated with positive feelings, and you dislike it when it is otherwise. I never said there wasn't any reasoning to liking or disliking something. But people are different, and reasoning is different for everyone. Different people get positive/negative emotions out of different things. I don't care why some people disliked Mass Effect 3 ending, this information means nothing to me. I did try to understand the reason a few people did, close friends, but I never managed to do it, since their impressions differ too much from mine, and I just couldn't relate to anything they said. Just like with cabbage, someone trying to explain what they like about cabbage won't click with me, since I won't be able to relate to that.

 

This is a thread about Neverwinter Nights, not ME3 ending. And I'm tired of this discussion, it is not going anywhere. If you want me to agree that people hated ME3 for some compelling reasons, then you don't need to waste your time, as I agree with this already. But what those compelling reasons are, I couldn't care less, to be honest.

[MagicalMaster]

There is a logical reason for liking or disliking everything.

 

You're conflating two senses of the word "logical."

 

You're using it in terms of "an unconscious decision that you have no control over but can be explained by science."

 

I'm using it in terms of "a conscious decision made after evaluating arguments."

 

It's why you can logically determine one idea is better than a second *even if emotionally you like the second idea more* (hence the whole "paradox" you can have where you're doing something you know is right but feels wrong, not referring to ME3 with that).

 

And not everyone who wound up hating ME3's ending did so initially.  Many either liked or were ambivalent about it initially (including me)...until they gave the matter more thought and their *conscious* processes wound up changing their *unconscious* state.

 

If you want me to agree that people hated ME3 for some compelling reasons, then you don't need to waste your time, as I agree with this already. But what those compelling reasons are, I couldn't care less, to be honest.

 

I was primarily looking for you to agree that they even *had* reasons, whether or not you find them compelling at all.  You came across as saying "Well, if I liked ME3's ending and someone else didn't, that's like me liking vanilla and them liking chocolate.  Purely a matter of taste with no real rationale"...which also implies you think people being very vocal about ME3's ending are complete idiots.  Not for disliking the ending (matter of taste), but for even thinking about making a case why the ending was bad (I can assure you that I have never thought of trying to convince someone why chocolate is better than vanilla).

 

On a *personal* level, I find your lack of interest in what even *you* think might be compelling reasons extremely disturbing and somewhat frightening/disappointing, but that's another matter.

[MayCaesar]

Discussing this any more doesn't make sense, when you keep butchering my words. Farewell.