125 réponses à ce sujet

[Rasande]

 

Hearing things about procedurally generated planets numbering close to a hundred just makes me apprehensive that we will get another mile wide, inch deep approach.

 

Oh man, procedurally generated worlds? Man that is not good.. a huge reason why games like Skyrim and GTA are so successful is that the worlds are so well built, and is also why so many of their clones fail. Besides being gorgeous, what makes exploring Skyrim fun is that there's always something interesting to find, a random dungeon, a point of interest, a hermit that has fled her home after taking revenge on some Imperial soldiers and will teach you archery... and as successful as Skryim was, it sure as hell was mile wide and 1 inch deep.

Just driving aimlessly around a barren wasteland isn't even fun, i loved the idea of ME1 exploration but i thought the execution was terrible.

 

I think a good story could exist in an open world game but you'd have to be able to set your own pacing if it's still going to be a major part of the game, and in a exploration focused game it rarely is, it's just a part.

A tight focused, cinematic story is what i think is an integral part of Mass Effect, and something Bioware is acually good at.. if only they'd stick to it.

 

I really wish developers would stop hopping on bandwagons... but that's not going to happen. I also wish they'd stop sticking familiar brand names on things while tossing everything that's associated with them in the air, but that's also never going to happen.

 

Man i hope i'm just being pessimistic and i'm completely wrong. But this new Mass Effect is starting to sound really.. well...meh...

 

...

 

Mehss Effect... a fusion of both Skrim and Mass Effect that fails to capture what was great about either

[Cheviot]

Disagree about there being loads of story based side content in DAI. It's full of grind and fetch.

I disagree about your disagreement (and fully anticipate that you will disagree with my disagreement of your disagreement, in which case, I will pre-emptively disagree with that). For example, Emprise du Lion is entirely side content, but is at the same time narrative driven (a town under seige; a quarry owner who sold not only her lands but her fellow townspeople down the river; a Darkspawn infestation allowed because of the disappearance of the Grey Wardens, etc.)

[Sanunes]

There's loads of story-based side content in Inquisition. It seems, reading between the lines, that what you guys want is a more restrictive critical path, one that forces all players to play the majority of story side missions to get to the end.

 

There is and isn't, what I want is more cohesion to the story instead of feeling like I am doing a bunch of unrelated story content.  The problem with Inquisition is that if you just do the critical path you are barely in the zone because they wanted to have the option of finishing the game in 20 or so hours.  Some zones had a really good flow for me such as The Fallow Mire where the story within the zone itself felt well balanced and made good use of the zone. Then there are other zones like The Emerald Graves where there didn't feel like there was any cohesion at all and all it was a bunch of random independent quests.

[TheLoneDeranger]

I agree. I'm on my second playthrough of DA: I and to be honest, it's such a slog this time around and I loved it the first time. I'm finding it boring, mundane even with too much quantity and not enough quality.

[Torgette]

Disagree about there being loads of story based side content in DAI. It's full of grind and fetch.

There is a ton of story based side content in DAI, it's just that it's all told via text instead of being shown - in that respect most players probably got none of it and if a game's lasting impression is off your experience then yeah DAI is an MMO-lite.

ME1 also had tons of lore and side stories buried in codexes but at least they ended in some kind of "shown" climax.

[MrFob]

@Rasande: I think, according to "the leak" they have a system that can create randomized environments as a "canvas", which the level designers then take and customize by hand. So the final result would still be hand made. I actually think this is a pretty smart approach to generating large amounts of content and if done right, can give us a large amount of content in a reasonable time frame.

 

@Cheviot: First of all, one should never preemptively disagree before hearing the other side out, it's kinda bad form in a discussion IMO.

As for Emprise du Lion (and a lot of DA:I content for that matter), yes, there was some backstory there but the pacing was the problem (as it usually is in open world games). I did spend a fair amount of hours in EdL but the story was told in a couple of minutes within this time. And EdL was one of the better regions in that regard. Don't get me started on lands like the Hissing Wastes or the Exalted Planes (to this day I have no idea why I actually went there in the first place). Also, in the particular case of DA:I, presentation was also an issue because the distinction between full cinematic presentation of the main quest and rather cheap ambient presentation of the side quests was very obvious (but that's another matter in a way).

Now, I think that if ME:N is focused on an explorer story, than we do have the background to visit uncharted planets for no reason and I am good with that (in fact, I hope we do, just like in ME1). But even there, the pacing needs to be right. Different people have different thresholds of course but in ME1 for example, I never spent more than 20 minutes riding my Mako around on a planet. After that, something has to happen to tell me why exactly I am actually doing it (and finding 3 shards is not enough btw ).

Look at the geth invasion quest in ME1, IMO one of the most tedious side quests in the game. We have four planets in a cluster and pretty much do the same thing on every one of them, then we get a fifth, go there, do the same thing again, all for a lousy text message. If it weren't for Tali's data, I would skip that. If the planets were designed better, it may help but even then, it would still be a tedious quest to do because you spend a lot of time fighting with very little story progression. OI don't even have anything against one or two of those kinds of quests but they cannot be the majority of the game.

So there is your problem, not the absence of a story, but the pacing.

 

EDIT: By the way, I am fully against a linear approach. I think ME did very well with the modular open semi-open world approach. I wrote this before but I'll write it again: I do hope that we get planets of all kinds of sizes, big ones like in ME1 (and maybe even a bit bigger at times) to explore with the Mako, small ones like ME2's N7 missions for small and short but intense story arcs and medium ones like ME3's side quests or ME2's loyalty missions that can tell a bit more elaborate but still very intense episodes. If we come into a new star system and we never know what kind of content we will find next, that would be ideal.

[We'll bang okay]

has no one ever played xenoblade chronicles here? It did story and open world very well.

[Dr. Rush]

Given that some of the best roleplaying games in existence are open-world, I would say, don't focus on story or world-design, focus on roleplaying in ME4.

 

ROLEPLAYING!

[Rasande]

@Rasande: I think, according to "the leak" they have a system that can create randomized environments as a "canvas", which the level designers then take and customize by hand. So the final result would still be hand made. I actually think this is a pretty smart approach to generating large amounts of content and if done right, can give us a large amount of content in a reasonable time frame.

 

That's good, though still abit concerning. That's the way Bethesda made Cyrodiil in Oblivion and that world wasn't nearly as good as Skyrim or Morrowind that were completely hand made.

On the upp side though you're right that it lets them create stuff more quickly, which gives them more time to spend on story and quests, i just hope that's what will end up happening.

 

E3 can't come soon enough, i'd really like to see one of these planets in action.

[Belgrade_Phantom]

I agree , I like story centric games and I do not like too many boring and repetative side quests which do not have any influence on the story and which use only to prolong the lenght of the game artifically.

The only games where I really enjoyed in side quests were Batman Arkham Asylum and City and those riddles and in Assassin's Creed 2 and Brotherhood ( glyphs and tomb missions) and AC4 : Black Flag (naval battles and fortresses)

[MrFob]

Speaking of Assasins Creed, I think Assassins Creed 1-Brotherhood (maybe even Revelations) did a pretty good job of balancing story with an open world. Another example, whee it worked really well are Gothic 1 and 2. All of them had fairly dense story content and they did not overdo it on the seize of the world. Also, all of those were structured in chapters (AC through the Animus sequences and Gothic had chapters directly). The advantage of Chapters is that you can see the world change over time, which makes it less static and gives the player the feeling that things are happening in this world without the player actively influencing events as well.

The ME games did this as well to some extent (in ME1 for example, you do get a couple of events that trigger after a certain number of main missions is completed, ME2 only has a few key events like this but ME3 is pretty strong with this as well).

[Steppenwolf]

There's loads of story-based side content in Inquisition. It seems, reading between the lines, that what you guys want is a more restrictive critical path, one that forces all players to play the majority of story side missions to get to the end.

 

90% of the side-missions are just "go get a thing" or "go kill some stuff" and 90% of the story content of these side-missions is either in overly-long text form that is uninteresting or it just hints at something without telling you anything. I love digging into the lore, but it has to be engaging. Unlocking a massive wall of text after spending 10 minutes walking around a barren landscape to find a small group of people to kill on sight is not fun or engaging. It's purely filler.

[Lethaya]

Honestly, I like to think DA:I was a learning experience for Bioware. I would rather them take those lessons and apply them then abandon them entirely.

 

Could the open world be better? Certainly, but this was their first go at it, and I didn't think it'd be perfect. Comparing it to Bethesda's open worlds, when that's what Bethesda has been doing for years, is just a bit unfair. I thought this was a pretty good attempt, actually. I would hope that time taken during DA:I's development to learn what they were doing and how these levels should be built and laid out could be applied to the stories of future titles instead, since now they have a bit more of a handle on things. Or an idea of a handle, anyway.

 

If it takes away from the story they aim to achieve, would I like less open world? Probably, yes. But if not, if they feel like, looking over DA:I, they have a better grasp of what to go for, then I'd prefer they at least make the attempt. But then I enjoyed DA:I quite a lot, so. xD

[Golden_Persona]

I thought Inquisition handled it's main story content really well. It actually took me back to ME1 if you can believe it. In ME1 it wasn't just about how a mission ended that the player could decide, you were also able to choose how you wanted to approach the mission in the first place. If you go to Noveria you can do the long quest chain for the garage pass which in and of itself had multiple outcomes to choose from. Or you could just give Anoleis however you spell his name the smuggled cargo. Heck, the smuggled cargo had multiple outcomes where you could complete the mission, haggle with the Hanar, undercut him and go straight to Innamorda, OR you could keep the darn thing and then have a showdown with the Krogan bounty hunter itself. When you finally made it to peak 15 yet again you had the option of killing all the guards, or doing a side mission which allowed you to sneak by everyone and spare their lives. ME2 and 3's missions were all the same, the only choice was how the mission would end.

 

Then you get to the whole Empress Celene mission in DAI and yet again you can choose how to approach the mission, not just how things result. I was pleasantly surprised when during my second time through I found out I could skip the boss fight at the end if I did things a certain way. Not to mention being able to choose who leads Orlais was awesome. DAI suffered from a very bad villain who became the Inquisitor's punching bag... the second he showed up and absolutely succeeds at nothing, even at the end he's just an idiot punching bag. Also the ending was rushed beyond my comprehension.

 

It shows Bioware can still handle story content well with open worlds. I felt like Inquisition's main story content was really well done. It wasn't impeded by the open world in the least imo. Another thing ME has over Inquisition is that the explorable planets will actually feel like fresh, new, and exotic locations with cool skyboxes. Bioware can let their imagination flourish. Compare that with fantasy worlds where you get the same desert, forest, and snow levels because it has to look like the planet we're born on.

[Jaquio]

The main problem with DAI wasn't that it was open instead of story-driven, but that they didn't incorporate the story elements well enough into the zones that they created.

 

There's two problems at play here:

 

1.  If you amp up the dial to 11 and push the "end of the world" storylines, you provide disincentives for exploration, because the immediacy of the threat demands action from the player.

2.  If you're going to insist on narratives that require immediate action, then you need to touch as many of these zones as possible, to make it feel like a journey.

 

I finished the game in my first playthrough without touching Emprise du Lion.  Yet that zone has a huge story element about red templars mining red lyrium.  Stuff that could have easily been incorporated into the main quest line, but they decided to just allow you to rush through and finish the game without attending to it.

 

Emerald Graves, Emprise du Lion, Fallow Mire, Hissing Wastes... all of these were good zones that you had no reason to actually visit in game if you were singularly focused on the narrative push to stop the Big Threat.  They could have easily threaded the main quest storyline through a number of these zones and made them a part of the greater whole.  I would appreciate more of that in the future.

 

I don't like this modern limitation on "you can only make games that do X or Y, you have to choose."  It seems like we're being directed by the limitations of publishers rather than demanding the best possible product from artists.  I want to challenge a game to do both, and create the best of both worlds.

[Cheviot]

I finished the game in my first playthrough without touching Emprise du Lion.  Yet that zone has a huge story element about red templars mining red lyrium.  Stuff that could have easily been incorporated into the main quest line, but they decided to just allow you to rush through and finish the game without attending to it.

So you don't want story-based side content?  You want everything story-based to be part of the critical path?

[Jaquio]

So you don't want story-based side content?  You want everything story-based to be part of the critical path?

 

Both, I guess?  I think the way to balance it is to have a main quest storyline touch upon the zone, but the decision to delve deeper be yours to choose to do or not to do.

 

I'll explain: 

Perhaps instead of Emerald Graves and Emprise du Lion being unnecessary for the main quest, let's say that your forces are unable to get to the Temple of Mythal because of a Red Templar fortress that stands in the way.  Your advisors tell you that until you break the Red Templars of their supply of red lyrium, it's going to cost considerable time and manpower to break down their fortress.  Leliana provides a clue that there's a man named "Fairbanks" who may hold the key to the source of the red lyrium.

 

Thus, now you have to go to Emerald Graves and speak to Fairbanks.  Maybe he'll help you, for a price.  You provide service, and sets up a meeting with the red templars and from there you can unlock Emprise.  All of the other elements of the Emerald Graves are still side quests, and even some of the issues regarding Fairbanks himself.  But you've now given the player a reason to even enter the zone.  If they just want to go in, do the bare minimum for Fairbanks and then leave, great.  But if they want to investigate further in the zone, they can do that as well.

 

The same can be done in Emprise.  You have to break the red lyrium mines to weaken the fortress and move along with the main quest.  All of the other side quests involving the red templars (like the Grey Warden fortress, the keep, the mayor selling citizens as slaves, etc.) can all be side quests you choose to attend to or not to attend to, but you still have to go there and perform a certain task (ending the mining operation) to move the story along.

 

 

Ultimately, I guess I reject the notion that large zones and side quests are what hurt DAI.  I think the pacing of the main quest fell apart at the end, and it made it seem like there was a lot of flab and fluff to attend to but the main quest was zooming along.  I just think it should be threaded through more, but there should still be ample opportunity for completionists and explorers to explore.

[Steppenwolf]

So you don't want story-based side content?  You want everything story-based to be part of the critical path?

 

There's a middle ground between only plot-critical content and side content that is entirely skippable and unimportant. There could have been a cut scene at Haven or Skyhold that explains the situation in Emprise du Leon and gives you reasons to go there and take care of things. Instead you have to go there, interact with nondescript NPCs, run all over and generally just **** around for a long time to realize there's important stuff going on. They buried the story and intrigue in that map.

[wright1978]

90% of the side-missions are just "go get a thing" or "go kill some stuff" and 90% of the story content of these side-missions is either in overly-long text form that is uninteresting or it just hints at something without telling you anything. I love digging into the lore, but it has to be engaging. Unlocking a massive wall of text after spending 10 minutes walking around a barren landscape to find a small group of people to kill on sight is not fun or engaging. It's purely filler.

Yep I want my story content to be more engaging and interactive. Let's have character informing choice in there rather than pure filler grind.

[RoboticWater]

So you don't want story-based side content?  You want everything story-based to be part of the critical path?

Just give a better incentive to explore. If there was meaningful content under every turned stone rather than meaningless tchotchkes and fetch quests, people might feel more inclined to turn over stones. It's not the player's fault if they don't particularly want to explore every nick and cranny, and the game should accommodate that to a certain extent. It's the game's job to get me interested in a world and the game's job to keep me interested, so a few hints leading me towards some of the good stuff would be nice.

 

Also, BioWare should probably lessen the stakes of their main quest. No one in their right mind is going to go looking for ram's meat when everything is quite literally going to hell. If the plot's beckoning, that's where the player is going to go.

[Cheviot]

There's a middle ground between only plot-critical content and side content that is entirely skippable and unimportant. There could have been a cut scene at Haven or Skyhold that explains the situation in Emprise du Leon and gives you reasons to go there and take care of things.

I agree; I think a cutscene like that, which gave an overview of the important stuff in the side areas, would've been helpful, and may have threaded it into the main story in the way Jaquio suggests without forcing it to become part of the critical path.  However, I disagree with this:

Instead you have to go there, interact with nondescript NPCs, run all over and generally just **** around for a long time to realize there's important stuff going on. They buried the story and intrigue in that map.

Harding gives you the basics of the situation, and by the time you leave the town, you know about the Keep, the demon and the Quarry, while at the same time setting up the next part of the quarry story (why the owner did the deal she did with the Red Templars).

Also, BioWare should probably lessen the stakes of their main quest. No one in their right mind is going to go looking for ram's meat when everything is quite literally going to hell. If the plot's beckoning, that's where the player is going to go.

I agree with this.  I think the whole Power thing was supposed to help with this (by giving players a nudge towards side missions); however, since you had to spend Power to make Power, it seems that a lot of players tried to do as much side stuff in already-opened areas (even if it was just fetch questing) rather than opening new areas and doing more interesting stuff.  Bioware should've communicated the benefits of spending Power on new areas more.

[Heimdall]

As for DAI, I believe Laidlaw actually admitted that they hadn't got the balance right. Jaws of Hakkon was meant to be another stab at finding the balance with a stronger zone story. (I can't comment on its success, haven't played)

[capn233]

If ME4 takes place in a different galaxy, the reapers have already won.

 

Also, a bunch of gigantic levels or worlds are not particularly necessary for a Mass Effect game.  Even considering the Uncharted Worlds in ME1 (which I on the whole appreciated), the actual core mission portion of each world is a relatively small area.  Focusing on giving relatively unique areas where you can do a bit of exploration should be the goal, not a 100 planets that you can blow 10 hours looking around for potassium, and picking up all the quarianroot plants.