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More Story and Less Open World please...


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#51
MrFob

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To be fair, IIRC, if you speak to Cullen enough, you do get a reason to go to EdL (not so much a few of the other areas though). As I said before, the problem IMO is not the content but the pacing and the presentation.

 

And I also agree with Golden_Persona, the main story content of DA:I was very good (especially the Winter Palace mission IMO). The problems were mainly happening in the side content. In fact, I do plan to make a DA:I run where I skip most of the side stuff (something I rarely do, even when repaying games) and I think it will make for a much better experience. But that's not the way I want ME to be. I want all content to be fun, even when playing the game a 2nd or 3rd time.

ME (at least the trilogy) is designed to be played multiple times IMO, so I don't think that's an unreasonable request.


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#52
Jaquio

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As for DAI, I believe Laidlaw actually admitted that they hadn't got the balance right. Jaws of Hakkon was meant to be another stab at finding the balance with a stronger zone story. (I can't comment on its success, haven't played)

 

Stuff like that makes me happy.

 

I have no problem with a game trying something new and then evaluating where their weaknesses were.  Like I said earlier, it worries me that people want game devleopers to limit what they do so they can get a super polished product.  If that were the case back in the day, today we'd be playing beautifully textured side-scrolling platformers.  I want game developers to venture forth and try new things.


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#53
CronoDragoon

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As for DAI, I believe Laidlaw actually admitted that they hadn't got the balance right. Jaws of Hakkon was meant to be another stab at finding the balance with a stronger zone story. (I can't comment on its success, haven't played)


From what I've heard, at the very least it does a much better job than the vanilla Inquisition zones. Whether a large zone with balanced story content is actually what the "cinematic" people (including me to some degree) are looking for may depend on the person.

#54
MrFob

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Stuff like that makes me happy.

 

I have no problem with a game trying something new and then evaluating where their weaknesses were.  Like I said earlier, it worries me that people want game devleopers to limit what they do so they can get a super polished product.  If that were the case back in the day, today we'd be playing beautifully textured side-scrolling platformers.  I want game developers to venture forth and try new things.

 

I agree. DA:I was their first game with a new engine and a fairly new concept, so I don't fault them at all for not getting it perfect the first time. In fact, I think they did an amazing job with the game. However, I hope that the teams have discussions, similar to the ones we have here on the boards. And our "complaining", which I rather like to think of as "more or less constructive criticism" can't hurt. Either they do read some of this stuff and maybe think about some of the ideas mentioned here (in which case it may be beneficial) or they ignore it altogether (in which case it is inconsequential).

 

On a side note, there is one thing that I really like about the DA team and that is that they are fairly open with the community. Much more so than the ME team has been, at least since ME2. I don't mind anyone making mistakes or not hitting things on the spot all the way but it sure feels better if you get to know some inside opinions on matters, that go beyond the PR double speak or silence, which is what we have seen a lot in this section of the forums.


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#55
Golden_Persona

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I do plan to make a DA:I run where I skip most of the side stuff (something I rarely do, even when repaying games) and I think it will make for a much better experience.

 

I can attest to the fact that it indeed makes for a way better experience. The only issue is that power will force you to do it to some extent. Not Hinterlands 10 hours finding people's rings and other trite, but it's still there. Which is all fine and good anyway since you need to be lv10 to choose a specialization. I find even when sticking to the story as much as possible I still end the game around Lv18-20. I also can't resist hunting down every dragon in each playthrough.

 

The only thing really missing by sticking to story content as much as possible is that crafting becomes almost nonexistant unless you still plan to farm for schematics, but if you don't care for crafting and just stick to loot you should be fine. I personally still get sucked into sidequests that take you to holds and hideouts and caves though. Even my most minimalist playthrough last me 50+ hours, even just by sticking to the rewarding content.



#56
Torgette

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I agree. DA:I was their first game with a new engine and a fairly new concept, so I don't fault them at all for not getting it perfect the first time. In fact, I think they did an amazing job with the game. However, I hope that the teams have discussions, similar to the ones we have here on the boards. And our "complaining", which I rather like to think of as "more or less constructive criticism" can't hurt. Either they do read some of this stuff and maybe think about some of the ideas mentioned here (in which case it may be beneficial) or they ignore it altogether (in which case it is inconsequential).

On a side note, there is one thing that I really like about the DA team and that is that they are fairly open with the community. Much more so than the ME team has been, at least since ME2. I don't mind anyone making mistakes or not hitting things on the spot all the way but it sure feels better if you get to know some inside opinions on matters, that go beyond the PR double speak or silence, which is what we have seen a lot in this section of the forums.


Well I still enjoyed parts of DAI enough to finish the game with tons of power to spare and a max lvl character and almost all dragons slayed. That said i've always been way more into mass effect and doubt i'm alone there - so voicing concerns can be motivated by passion as much as anything else here :)
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#57
Heimdall

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Actually I did very little side content in my first playthrough (At the time I knew I wouldn't have access to my console for the next month, so I was just trying to finish)

It definitely feels like a much smoother and less cluttered experience,
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#58
Pasquale1234

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What if...

... the overall goal is to give us a setting and the tools with which to create our own stories? That is generally the province of open world RPGs.

... you're in a completely uncharted star cluster. No maps, no planet names, no information about any of these heavenly bodies aside from what your long-range scanners can detect. You need to find supplies, food sources, and establish a new home for your species.

There are a lot of chapters of side stories that could unfold and taken together, make up a complete, non-linear narrative where you ultimately complete your goal of establishing a foothold with some number of well-defended, well-supplied settlements that have achieved and are capable of maintaining some target growth rate.

Would you...

... invade a planet that already has a small population of sentient beings, or let them be?

... try to make peace between warring clans or incite them to wipe each other out?

... introduce food crops, insects, etc. suited to meet human nutritional needs to a planet whose ecosystems could be destroyed by them?

... hire / enslave / educate / uplift lesser species?

... establish mining colonies on resource-rich worlds with hostile environments that would be dependent on imported food supplies that could be interrupted?

... try to establish trade with other species?

... move onto a previously well-developed world whose former occupants mysteriously vanished?

If there are multiple factions of allied species, with which would you align?

Would you try to establish your power in this environment via military might, espionage, technological supremacy, straightforward diplomacy, political manipulation, or some combination of these characteristics? What are you willing to do for power, dominance, security?

That sort of game sounds pretty interesting to me, and could have a lot of replay value - especially if some of the uninhabited worlds were randomly generated per playthrough. And, yeah, a lot of those scenarios could play out with interesting characters and full cinematics.

One of my biggest issues with some of the linear narrative games I've played is the pacing. The supposed urgency of the main narrative often makes me feel like I'm being irresponsible if I do other side content. Planet-hopping in search of orbs, relics, books, etc. while millions of people are being harvested by reapers doesn't feel right to me. The non-linear, create your own story sort of narrative I've outlined here would not have that problem.
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#59
Malanek

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Pasquale, I thought that was a very good post. My only qualm is whether or not this should be the focus of a "mass effect" game where it plays as a a hybrid third-person shooter/RPG. It sounds more like a hybrid roleplaying/strategy game. Perhaps you can merge all 3 but then you add in a driving game (mako) and possibly even a flight simulator (flying spaceship), there is every chance the game could become too unfocused with individual components not up to scratch, or simply too diluted so that players who only like parts of it get bored with the parts they don't like.


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#60
MrFob

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@Pasquale1234: It's a very interesting concept because it's very different. Sort of like a Civ game or a Master of Orion with a very sophisticated story presentation and from the perspective of one guy. I can see how that can be intriguing but I guess it would only work for side content. I think the audience for a Mass Effect game would expect a more focused main story. That said, it would be interesting to have a game like ME2, where the main story is really happening in the background and the focus of the game is on the side content. Only this time, your mission is not to build the team but to expand your colony.

It would be tough to implement properly though, I think. First of all, Malanek is right, you'd have to be careful not to water down the different components too much and second, I am always very skeptical of randomly generated content as you suggest. Especially in this case because a new settlement would usually have very specific needs.

But the idea is an interesting one for sure.


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#61
Pasquale1234

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Pasquale, I thought that was a very good post. My only qualm is whether or not this should be the focus of a "mass effect" game where it plays as a a hybrid third-person shooter/RPG. It sounds more like a hybrid roleplaying/strategy game. Perhaps you can merge all 3 but then you add in a driving game (mako) and possibly even a flight simulator (flying spaceship), there is every chance the game could become too unfocused with individual components not up to scratch, or simply too diluted so that players who only like parts of it get bored with the parts they don't like.


@Pasquale1234: It's a very interesting concept because it's very different. Sort of like a Civ game or a Master of Orion with a very sophisticated story presentation and from the perspective of one guy. I can see how that can be intriguing but I guess it would only work for side content. I think the audience for a Mass Effect game would expect a more focused main story. That said, it would be interesting to have a game like ME2, where the main story is really happening in the background and the focus of the game is on the side content. Only this time, your mission is not to build the team but to expand your colony.
It would be tough to implement properly though, I think. First of all, Malanek is right, you'd have to be careful not to water down the different components too much and second, I am always very skeptical of randomly generated content as you suggest. Especially in this case because a new settlement would usually have very specific needs.
But the idea is an interesting one for sure.


I was just generally trying to point out that exploration and story content are not incompatible.

What my post described does sound a lot like an RPG/RTS hybrid. They are my favorite genres, and I tend to approach both as a role-player creating (or co-creating) a story via emergent narrative derived from the choices I make. Not only the obvious choices (conversation options, how to resolve conflict) but also priorities in terms of which quest, mission, goal my character will take on first, how my character approaches problems / combat, etc. I personally enjoy that freedom, and like it when the narrative leaves some blank spaces for me to fill in.

It does sound like the team is highly invested in making the Mako much more responsive and fun to drive than it was in ME1. I think, too, that a lot of the dissatisfaction with it was due to the terrain, copied levels, and lack of interest in prospecting for minerals and completing item collections. If crafting and customization are a thing, players might be more interested in collecting the materials required.

Having a narrative emerge from open world sort of exploration is certainly not new to BioWare; it was their foundation - though they have certainly departed from that in some of their more recent titles. With a new engine and the ability to create and populate bigger worlds in higher resolution, etc. - they might actually be wanting to do more of that.

The current fanbase seems to have some fairly disparate interests, as exemplified by ME3's modes - which were action, rpg, and story IIRC. Some people loved ME1's exploration - others, not so much. I can't say I envy the team in trying to figure out how much to focus on what elements.

I do think that folks who expect a strong connection between the trilogy and MENext might be disappointed. A trilogy with a focused narrative was promised and has been delivered. This new thing is very much a product of its success, and might be very different in what it attempts to accomplish. I shudder to think about all the baggage they drug through the trilogy - replacement characters, alternate content to account for character deaths, etc. - that had to be hella expensive to do.

I also think the ME3 backlash - and perhaps DA2 to a lesser extent - might impact the types of stories they try to tell going forward. We might see more and more of the choices with consequences in side content, where the results will only impact that specific title. There is still a lot of grief over whether we should have expected Shepard would die or have a chance to live on - and I think BioWare would like to be able to satisfy people who come down on both sides of such questions.

At this point, I would expect MENext will have a focused narrative smaller in scope than previous titles. It may be along the lines of ME1, with a few main missions punctuated by exploration and side content. It could also be similar to ME2, where the main story percolates in the background, occasionally asserting itself while you're doing other things.
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#62
Reorte

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I find openeness really helps make me feel I'm in that world instead of just having snippets handed to me, and with too much constraint the borders become more and more obvious. Whilst it's true that it impinges storytelling developers should, I feel, keep trying to push the world more open without losing the storytelling ability. That isn't easy of course but if it was easy it would've been done ages ago and not be progress. It has to be done carefully, it's difficult and expensive but avoiding it or taking an easy route produces an unsatisfactory product. Throwing away the openess is just taking the easy path.


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#63
MrFob

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I find openeness really helps make me feel I'm in that world instead of just having snippets handed to me, and with too much constraint the borders become more and more obvious. Whilst it's true that it impinges storytelling developers should, I feel, keep trying to push the world more open without losing the storytelling ability. That isn't easy of course but if it was easy it would've been done ages ago and not be progress. It has to be done carefully, it's difficult and expensive but avoiding it or taking an easy route produces an unsatisfactory product. Throwing away the openess is just taking the easy path.

 

I see your point but IMO ME didn't really have that problem so much because the scenario is ideal for the modular approach. The entire thing is built on the premise that you have a space ship and fly to different planets. Therefore, it makes sense that you use one main hub (the ship) to access this modular content. (That by the way is also why I feel ME is destined for mods. New content can be added into the game much more naturally as in one persistent world like Skyrim). As long as you have a certain level of openness within these modules, I think the believability and immersion in a perceived single universe is maintained. Of course, one can argue about the size that each planet needs. Personally, I think they should vary in size and boundaries, according to their story content (on one planet, you may be in an open plane and need lot's of space, on another, your target area may be a narrow canyon, on a space station, you are constrained anyway, etc.). This would emphasize the difference between the places you visit and also conceal the ME1-issue where it was very clear that all planets were made from one single template. As long as the boundaries are well explained and believable, I have no problem with using smaller modules if that is what best transports the story.



#64
Mcfly616

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They're not mutually exclusive. 



#65
RoboticWater

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I see your point but IMO ME didn't really have that problem so much because the scenario is ideal for the modular approach. The entire thing is built on the premise that you have a space ship and fly to different planets. Therefore, it makes sense that you use one main hub (the ship) to access this modular content. (That by the way is also why I feel ME is destined for mods. New content can be added into the game much more naturally as in one persistent world like Skyrim). As long as you have a certain level of openness within these modules, I think the believability and immersion in a perceived single universe is maintained. Of course, one can argue about the size that each planet needs. Personally, I think they should vary in size and boundaries, according to their story content (on one planet, you may be in an open plane and need lot's of space, on another, your target area may be a narrow canyon, on a space station, you are constrained anyway, etc.). This would emphasize the difference between the places you visit and also conceal the ME1-issue where it was very clear that all planets were made from one single template. As long as the boundaries are well explained and believable, I have no problem with using smaller modules if that is what best transports the story.

I don't think we'll ever see mods in Mass Effect. EA is far too protective of their Frostbite engine.



#66
MrFob

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I don't think we'll ever see mods in Mass Effect. EA is far too protective of their Frostbite engine.

 

You know me, I had to put an underhanded argument for mod support into that post. :D

 

Believe me, I know the chances are less than small. I just think the game is such a good candidate, it such a shame, we can't all just capitalize on that.



#67
BabyPuncher

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(That by the way is also why I feel ME is destined for mods. New content can be added into the game much more naturally as in one persistent world like Skyrim).

 

Yeah, if you don't care about story or characters. Or you're okay with everyone being silent. Since, you know, mods don't have access to the voice actors and the equipment and voice talent of the modding community simply isn't even remotely close to that of professional studios and voice actors.

 

Also, the modding community generally hasn't done much with cinematics so far as I'm aware, which are a pretty important staple of modern BioWare games.



#68
General TSAR

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Either way, I hope to have respawnable baddies and not an empty universe. 



#69
Br3admax

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DA:I's story wasn't lackluster because of the open world. It was lackluster because BioWare wrote it. 



#70
RoboticWater

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Yeah, if you don't care about story or characters. Or you're okay with everyone being silent. Since, you know, mods don't have access to the voice actors and the equipment and voice talent of the modding community simply isn't even remotely close to that of professional studios and voice actors.

 

Also, the modding community generally hasn't done much with cinematics so far as I'm aware, which are a pretty important staple of modern BioWare games.

Considering they're optional, I don't see how mods could be a bad thing. Even if they don't have the same voice talent or any decent cutscenes, more content is more content.



#71
MrFob

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@BabyPuncher: I don't want to derail this thread too much, as it is not about modding but I think you are vastly underestimating the possibilities that arise with a properly supported modding community. True, there will not be many new lines from the original voice overs but if you look at a lot of the content in the ME trilogy, Shepard's answers and statement are often fairly short and simple. Most of the stories is told through NPC, which can be voiced. Cinematics are not a problem at all with access to a basic camera and animation tool and even easier if we can get access to the in-game assets, like animations, etc. The reason it hasn't happened a lot so far is because we had to HEX edit and stitch our mods together, write our own tools and hacks etc.

 

I am not saying it's easy but with a proper mod kit, it is completely feasible to make mods like ME2's N7 missions at least and with more effort, even more elaborate story mods should be not too much of a problem. I am not saying that every mod would be on par with the quality of the main game (that kind of comes with the territory) but dedicated fans are capable of remarkable achievements if they have the proper tools, just look at the better mods, made with the Creation Engine or the Source Engine.

 

The Mass Effect community is massive and very dedicated and even without any tools, supplied by the devs, ME3 is in the top 20 of all games on Nexus, in terms of mod numbers. Given those numbers, I would expect we'd see a few high quality content mods released, given the opportunity.



#72
BabyPuncher

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I think you're the one 'vastly underestimating' things if you're assuming that with 'basic camera and animation tools' modders are going create cinematic content on par with what we see in the games.

 

The Source Film Maker has been out for out how long now? And how many movies have we seen that equal the kind of quality Valve has achieved with their various shorts? There's plenty of 10 second clips on YouTube of characters reinacting scenes from cartoons and films certainly, but 5+ minute, fully voiced acted and meticulously animated content...?

 

And that's with the SFM. Which, from what I've heard, is vastly easier to use than more complex animation suites, such as the sort I'm assuming BioWare uses.

 

Two characters waving hello while standing still and a conversation giving the player a mission with kooky voice acting? Sure. I can see that happening. Fast and intricate combat scenes, space battles, particle effects, scenes with huge and detailed creatures, machines, or environments? Seriously doubt it.


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#73
goishen

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 BioWare Montreal is overhauling the gameplay and philosophy of Mass Effect.

 

 

Man, I really don't mean to pick on you, but source...    ?

 

I'll give you gameplay...   But philosophy?  



#74
MrFob

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I think you're the one 'vastly underestimating' things if you're assuming that with 'basic camera and animation tools' modders are going create cinematic content on par with what we see in the games.

 

Maybe, maybe not. Here is a random example of what's possible even without tools.

 

Anyway, we could argue about this all day but unfortunately, due to EA/BW's stance towards mod support, we'll probably never find out.

 

So for the sake of this thread, I'll let it be. I just find it sad that it is exactly this kind of rather unfounded doubt about the outcome, which will justify and solidify the devs' position, not to support a modding community and therefore stop us from even trying in the first place.



#75
JamieCOTC

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Thedas is not Tamriel nor is the ME galaxy. I love open world games, Fallout NV being one of my favs, but I have to agree that this is not BW's strength. I understand they want to grow and I'm all for bringing back exploration but it needs to complement the story, not be the story. DAI did good w/ zones like Crestwood, but too many were filled w/ weightless MMO style fetch quests. The problem w/ BW's fetch quests, from DA:O to ME3 is there is no meat to them. DA:I just copied that and multiplied it. In ME1 you had side quests w/ cookie cutter buildings, but about half of them had some kind of story. I'd love to see a return to that format (w/ better buildings obviously).


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