122 réponses à ce sujet

[Solace]

Alright, the other day I was playing a Knight Enchanter, and learned it had eleven roots, and it originated from the Arcane Warrior magical practice.. In Origins, this particular magical practice is ancient and long forgotten...nobody knows this kind of practice during the time of origins. The Warden( if they are a mage), can learn this from an Arcane Warrior's spirit as a reward for freeing the sprit. Soooo....how did the circle get a hold of this practice, since what remained of that knowledge went with the warden and that spirit. .

[X Equestris]

Learned from the Dales way back in the day, most likely.

[Captain Wiseass]

Rediscovered lore, most likely. Or the Warden passed it on to the Ferelden Circle, which put it back into use.

[Frybread76]

I would have said the classes differ in their techniques, since the KE creates a spirit blade for melee while the AW increases his strength and combat prowess through magic.  Both classes have some form of damage resistance, though.

 

However, isn't the multi-player AW almost identical to the single-player KE?  I don't know because I've never played multi-player.

[Owlfruit Potion]

Yeah, multiplayer AW ≈ single player KE.

 

Still, I think AW =/= KE is the most satisfying answer to this question I've heard yet (edit: i.e., that channeling magic into the physical strength to wear armor and wield traditional weapons isn't part of the KE techniques, and that the KE magical techniques are based on fragmental knowledge of, but are not identical to, the AW ones). Another possibility is that the Warden just had never heard of AW/KE techniques because they were either not a mage at all or because Kinloch Hold was a fairly restrictive Circle that might have been less willing to allow Knight-Enchanters than Vivienne and Trevelyan's Montsimmard and Ostwick.

 

(As for why Cillian is practicing it and a Dalish Warden ostensibly hasn't heard of it, I think that can be chalked up to the major differences in tradition between Dalish clans that the games have alluded to in the past.)

 

I'd love it if WoT2 went into a bit more detail on this.

[Incantrix]

It's quite simple really.

Humans stole ancient elven technique and twisted it into something else. Any remnant of ancient elven glory have always been stolen by thedasian humans and called their own.

[Gervaise]

Solas only says it has its origins with the elves.   As with so much else, when Tevinter was scavenging the remains of Arlathan, they picked up on this technique and developed it their own way without knowing the intricacies of the original elven way.  Which is why, in my opinion, it isn't as impressive as Arcane Warrior.   After all you can't use full armour or weapons for a start.  

 

Vivienne says it is used by mages who form the personal guard of the Divine, which is obviously why Vivienne wanted to learn the skill.   Back in Tevinter I dare say it isn't widely known and probably mostly practised by the mages serving the Black Divine.    This would account for why the Warden as a Circle mage from Ferelden wouldn't be acquainted with the skill; you probably need to be in one of the Orlesian Circles to get the training.    A Dalish elf wouldn't know about Arcane Warrior because it counts among the lore that they had lost and wouldn't know Knight Enchanter because their magical traditions have nothing to do with the Circles.

[TheKomandorShepard]

It is called recton ,when series started (dao) arcane warrior was lost specialization that very few people knew about.Then later they said screw that it would be cool if tevinter had such mages and then they have decided throw everything before in garbage can and said lets make circle mage know about it too.

 

So now not only every major mage organization have that specialization but also changed how it worked.    

[LOLandStuff]

Everything is a retcon to you.

[Akkos]

hmm, The mages that works directly under the Divine are either healers or knight-enchanters actually. There are art-works about these "knight-enchanters". It's not exactly the way elves use to practice their magic but it's similar.

 

I don't think it was stated circle mages could teach how to be knight enchanter actually...  The practice is not from the Circle but taught by the chantry...

[TheKomandorShepard]

Everything is a retcon to you.

It is in fact retcon ,but i don't think you know what that means considering you have decided write this comment.

 

You will have to do better than that.

[thetinyevil]

Alright, the other day I was playing a Knight Enchanter, and learned it had eleven roots, and it originated from the Arcane Warrior magical practice.. In Origins, this particular magical practice is ancient and long forgotten...nobody knows this kind of practice during the time of origins. The Warden( if they are a mage), can learn this from an Arcane Warrior's spirit as a reward for freeing the sprit. Soooo....how did the circle get a hold of this practice, since what remained of that knowledge went with the warden and that spirit. .

If Wynne was part of the Warden's party. Or The Warden if they were loyal to the Chantry.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

It is in fact retcon ,but i don't think you know what that means considering you have decided write this comment.

 

WOW, this is a milestone right here..

[TheKomandorShepard]

WOW, this is a milestone right here..

Well you can call it that ,i call it truth or well response on poor attempt to get at me.

[SgtSteel91]

If Wynne was part of the Warden's party. Or The Warden if they were loyal to the Chantry.

 

Maybe if Morrigan got the spec, she shared that knowledge with Empress Celene to secure her place as Arcane Advisor, then Celene gave the knowledge to the Chantry for favors?

[LOLandStuff]

Well you can call it that ,i call it truth or well response on poor attempt to get at me.

 

And I call it paranoia.

[TheKomandorShepard]

And I call it paranoia.

Well then you have another word to check out.

 

But to get back on topic ,in first place Wynne and Morrigan are optional companions and that assuming that we even gave them that specialization.

[LOLandStuff]

I'd bother checking these big words for you but I'm not one for copy/pasting.

 

And Morrigan isn't an optional companion. You're stuck with her from the moment Flemeth sends her with you. You leaving her in camp and never adding her to your party is another thing.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I'd bother checking these big words for you but I'm not one for copy/pasting.

 

And Morrigan isn't an optional companion. You're stuck with her from the moment Flemeth sends her with you. You leaving her in camp and never adding her to your party is another thing.

You don't need to because i know them unlike some people.

 

Also yes morrigan is optional companion you can literally kick her out already in lothering if i recall (if im wrong here im pretty sure you can do that when you visit camp first time what is after lothering) ,what is pretty much 1 minute after she becomes your companion, 3-4 if you have RE with dog. 

[Bad King]

(As for why Cillian is practicing it and a Dalish Warden ostensibly hasn't heard of it, I think that can be chalked up to the major differences in tradition between Dalish clans that the games have alluded to in the past.)

 

Cillian seems like a knowledgeable scholar of elven lore (he acts as the Inquisition's elven scholar in a war table operation) and is a bit of a recluse who lives separately from his clan - it's likely that he discovered knowledge of the techniques himself through conducting some archaeological studies of his own during his travels away from his clan. So it's possible that the knowledge derives from his own research and not from his clan. He could have learned it from glyphs or from spirits: either way, it's unlikely to be such a 'pure' form of the discipline as the version practised by the Warden (which appears to have been derived from an actual ancient elven being).

 

As for how KE became a circle practice, I assume that it either:

 

a ). Was Tevinter's interpretation of Arcane Warrior lore that was taken from the conquered remains of the elven empire. They then passed it to the rest of Thedas after conquering it. This could have been passed down and re-interpreted each generation making it more and more different from the original Arcane Warriors. The Chantry, who respected the discipline, focus and martial prowess of the art, then adopted it as training for their mage guards.

 

Or:

 

b ). Was an art preserved by the elves of the Dales - a remnant of the Arcane Warriors of Arlathan. When the Dales were conquered during an Exalted March, the Chantry could have scavenged customs that were of use to them - the Knight Enchanter discipline could thus have entered the Circles/Chantry following the war in the Dales.

 

What's key is that Knight Enchanter =/= Arcane Warrior - it is a descendant discipline of it which is similar in some ways but different in other ways.

[dragonflight288]

Also, different Circle's practice different magic. 

 

I assume that Tevinter stole scraps of Dalish magic and artifacts, which is a fact, and poorly adapted them because they don't understand them, which is also a fact as we see with the eluvians. 

 

It'd be like asking why the Hero of Ferelden couldn't become a Force Mage. Or Hawke a shapeshifter. As Morrigan states, there are many forms of magic practiced, some of it utterly unknown or misconstrued.

 

A Knight-Enchanter is like a military rank, and are used to protect the Divine, but the magic itself doesn't make the wielder better at combat or physically stronger, like an Arcane Warrior does. I think a mage Warden who becomes one is pretty much the only true Arcane Warrior in Thedas. 

[Ashagar]

While the whole Knight Enchanter thing was adopted from the elves the chantry put its own spin on it which I don't think made it t weaker just different, some of the things knight enchanters do I do not recall Archane warriors ever doing or even being capable of doing. Whats clear Knight Echanters are rare being made of only the most loyal mages who serve the divine directly and that they are a elite force capable and trusted to carry out speical operations behind enemy lines and that they have delovoped their own tradtions like the creations of the spirit blades which are admitedly cool and I wouldn't mind seeing again in the future.

 

There is another factor as well if the last inqusitor who was a elf showed any thing some elves seemed have worshiped both the maker and the elven gods so the first  knight enchanters could well have been elves without it being stolen or gathered from the scraps of the dales of the ruins of the dales. Its certainly clear that the Knight Echanters don't seem to care about race given the Commander who teaches the Inqusitor was a elf of rank.

[stop_him]

It's quite simple really.

Humans stole ancient elven technique and twisted it into something else. Any remnant of ancient elven glory have always been stolen by thedasian humans and called their own.

[IanPolaris]

I think this is definately a retcon certainly in spirit if perhaps not technically in fact.  Not only was the Arcane Warrior specialty in DAO an extremely rare specialization (available only to the warden by a very special circumstance w./r/t an ancient elf spirit and only seen elsewhere by Cultists that were cut off from all other civilization), but if you remember the tower mission in DAO, the Templars and Chantry specifically and with prejudice  prevent mages from getting any effective martial training and with prejudice stomp out any magic that can be combined with martial training....including the 'liquidation' of said mages. 

 

It's very clear that the Templars and Chantry did NOT want mages having any form of effective battle magic and certainly none that would enable them to fight in the front lines (read against Templars).  Duncan in the mage origin also makes the same point.

 

Now fast forward to DAI.  Of all the specialites, it's the Knight Enchanter that enables a mage not only to survive but actually thrive on the front lines against front line fighters....including templars.  Definate retcon as I see it.

[TEWR]

 I find it hard to disagree with Ian's statement, but it strikes me that the Knight-Enchanter school is a school of magic specifically designed to allow for magic to be the focal point of the attacks, whereas Arcane Warrior allowed Mages to use their magic in place of strength. That is to say, an Arcane Warrior used their proficiency with magic to wield proper weapons and armor, whereas a Knight-Enchanter creates a blade of piercing magic.

 

Which the Chantry could easily contend with by having its Templars dispel such magic, thus rendering it controllable.

 

As for how it happened, possibly a carry-over from Tevinter, or the Chantry/Templars found something about Arcane Warriors and might've had some mages seek to replicate it (possibly bootlicking type Loyalists) and it came about.

 

Or the Chantry took it from the Dales following the EMotD.

 

only seen elsewhere by Cultists that were cut off from all other civilization

 

And a member in the hush hush Provings the Warden can be a part of.