122 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Just to nitpick a bit, the Templar ability to disrupt ungoing spells is actually more effective against the traditional DAO type Arcane Warrior than the DAI Knight Enchanter (which makes it even more of a retcon IMHO for reasons already stated).  Why?  The Arcane Warrior depends almost entirely on expensive and slow recharge standing spells to use magic in place of martial prowess.  The Knight Enchanter's spirit blade is an 'instaneous' spell that is recast each time it's swung which makes dispelling it far less problematic to the mage.....exactly the opposite of what the Chantry would want.  BTW good catch on the 'informal' provings.  Yes that's the third place in DAO where we see the Arcane Warrior.

[Sifr]

 I find it hard to disagree with Ian's statement, but it strikes me that the Knight-Enchanter school is a school of magic specifically designed to allow for magic to be the focal point of the attacks, whereas Arcane Warrior allowed Mages to use their magic in place of strength. That is to say, an Arcane Warrior used their proficiency with magic to wield proper weapons and armor, whereas a Knight-Enchanter creates a blade of piercing magic.

 

Which the Chantry could easily contend with by having its Templars dispel such magic, thus rendering it controllable.

 

Took the words out of my mouth, this was what I assumed as well?

 

One can assume that if the essence in the gem was indeed once an Ancient Elf, then the Arcane Warrior spec is indeed the pure, original school of this practice that was used in the time of the Ancient Elven Empire that focused more on the warrior side.

 

Whereas the Knight-Enchanter technique is "Chantry-Approved" school that was derived (and slightly watered-down) from the techniques used by the Arcane Warriors, modified over the centuries, so it ended up focusing more on the battle-magic side.

 

It's really not a retcon in anyway, since as Solas says, KE is merely the Chantry's derivation of a much older Elven school of magic. How can it be a retcon when it neither contradicts nor negates anything that came previous, but instead merely adds another layer of context to something already established?

[TheKomandorShepard]

KC is pretty much the same thing that AW is now , as we have both classes in the game and it is the same.

 

So yes it is Retcon.

[Mykel54]

Most magic the circles know they inherited from elven knowledge, through tevinter. The knight-enchanter is the chantry version of the ancient "arcane warrior". Both are what is known in other settings as battlemages or warmages, basically mages who are adept in melee combat and focus on magic to be used in war.

[Sifr]

KC is pretty much the same thing that AW is now , as we have both classes in the game and it is the same.

 

So yes it is Retcon.

 

Pretty much the same thing in that they don't use armour, swords or shields, but instead channel magic into smacking a massive Spirit Blade into people? That's not in any way the same thing, even if they are based on a more martial form of magical combat.

 

A Retcon is when something contradicts some plot element or information that came before it... this doesn't do either?

 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Pretty much the same thing in that they don't use armour, swords or shields, but instead channel magic into smacking a massive Spirit Blade into people? That's not in any way the same thing, even if they are based on a more martial form of magical combat.

 

A Retcon is when something contradicts some plot element or information that came before it... this doesn't do either?

 

 

 

except both AW and KC use spirit blade in inquisition , and base around same skills so epic fail.

 

So yes it is Retcon because arcane warrior is now the same thing KC is and not what it was in dao , not mention about that being lost specialization.

[Br3admax]

What an Arcane Warrior is was retconned, but such things have always existed, such as the warriors of Tevinter. Also, even said in Inquisition, it's not like every mage gets the opprotunity to learn.

[Sifr]

except both AW and KC use spirit blade in inquisition , and base around same skills so epic fail.

 

So yes it is Retcon because arcane warrior is now the same thing KC is and not what it was in dao , not mention about that being lost specialization.

 

Except they don't, because a Knight Enchanter is not an Arcane Warrior, they are just based on them. They didn't change styles either, while KE use Spirit Blades now, AW still use swords and did in the past.

 

If you're still not getting it, what you're saying is that this painting on the right is the same as that on the left.

 

 

While it might be the same canvas that was used, the botched "restoration" of this painting made it so unrecognisable from the original, in truth, it really cannot be said to be the same painting at all anymore? But your argument would say that it's the same and that it'd always looked like that?

[TheKomandorShepard]

Except they don't, because as a Knight Enchanter is not an Arcane Warrior. KE now use Spirit Blades, AW still use swords.

 

If you're still not getting it, what you're saying is that this painting on the right is the same as that on the left.

 

 

While it might be the same canvas that was used, the botched "restoration" of this painting made it so unrecognisable from the original, in truth, it really cannot be said to be the same painting at all anymore? But your argument would say that it's the same and that it'd always looked like that?

  Execpt yes they do and they are the same , with difference KC is tied to the chantry and AW more to elves and now tevinter , skills are however identical.

[Sifr]

  Execpt yes they do and they are the same , with difference KC is tied to the chantry and AW more to elves and now tevinter , skills are however identical.

 

Err... no, read his backstory again.

 

Cillian wants to rediscover the art of the Arcane Warrior and lived apart from his people to try and do so. Meaning that the Dalish do not know how to be Arcane Warriors anymore and that knowledge is lost, just as we were told in Origins.

 

Which would mean that at best, his "Arcane Warrior" skills are based on patched together elven lore he might have found, but probably borrowed heavily from that of the Knight-Enchanters. He's not an Ancient Elf either, so he has no idea if what he's doing is actually what they did?

 

Calling Cillian a true "Arcane Warrior" is kinda like saying that Bull is an actual Reaver, just because he has some of the talents but never actually learned the technique nor drank dragon's blood?

[IanPolaris]

Pretty much the same thing in that they don't use armour, swords or shields, but instead channel magic into smacking a massive Spirit Blade into people? That's not in any way the same thing, even if they are based on a more martial form of magical combat.

 

A Retcon is when something contradicts some plot element or information that came before it... this doesn't do either?

 

 

Nitpick.  Cloth armor in DAI is just as protective as medium armor at the high end and almost as effective as heavy armor.  Not only that, but any mage can wear heavy armor (or medium armor) as long as it's silverite.

[IanPolaris]

It's really not a retcon in anyway, since as Solas says, KE is merely the Chantry's derivation of a much older Elven school of magic. How can it be a retcon when it neither contradicts nor negates anything that came previous, but instead merely adds another layer of context to something already established?

 

How can it be a retcon?  I would argue that it may not in fact be a retcon de-jure, but a retcon de-facto.  Why?  Because we already have established lore from DAO (see circle tower mission) that the Templars will go to great length (and with prejudice) to keep mages from having any martial training at all.  That flies directly in the fact of the Knight Enchanter specialization which is precisely that.

[Sifr]

Nitpick.  Cloth armor in DAI is just as protective as medium armor at the high end and almost as effective as heavy armor.  Not only that, but any mage can wear heavy armor (or medium armor) as long as it's silverite.

 

But isn't that a case of Gameplay and Story Segregation, since otherwise all mages would be wearing massive suits of armour? Same thing is why logically, using high end materials on Tier 1 weapons should mean that they'd have equal stats, but they clearly don't?

 

How can it be a retcon?  I would argue that it may not in fact be a retcon de-jure, but a retcon de-facto.  Why?  Because we already have established lore from DAO (see circle tower mission) that the Templars will go to great length (and with prejudice) to keep mages from having any martial training at all.  That flies directly in the fact of the Knight Enchanter specialization which is precisely that.

 

Leliana and Vivienne seem to imply that the Knight Enchanter spec is a prestiguous one and only available to a select few mages, those who've proven themselves to be loyalists to the Chantry? It's unlikely they'd ever teach it to someone like Anders, who's obviously not loyal to the Chantry and would have turned those skills on his instructors and the Templars the moment he saw a chance to make a break to the door?

 

It being something that only a select few ever learn and it not being something one can easily become fits with how it's presented in the game, kinda like how we're told only a few people are chosen to become Seekers, but most people end up being sent into the Templars?

[TheKomandorShepard]

Err... no, read his backstory again.

 

Cillian wants to rediscover the art of the Arcane Warrior and lived apart from his people to try and do so. Meaning that the Dalish do not know how to be Arcane Warriors anymore and that knowledge is lost, just as we were told in Origins.

 

Which would mean that at best, his "Arcane Warrior" skills are based on patched together elven lore he might have found, but probably borrowed heavily from that of the Knight-Enchanters. He's not an Ancient Elf either, so he has no idea if what he's doing is actually what they did?

 

Calling Cillain a true "Arcane Warrior" is kinda like saying that Bull is an actual Reaver, just because he has some of the talents but never actually learned the technique nor drank dragon's blood?

I have read his backstory , yes dalish don't know how to become arcane warriors , and i never said they knew or he learned this from dalish hm? He went to discover them and lived in solitude so no he couldn't learn that from KC and if somehow he did he would be Knight Enchanter , not Arcane warrior .If his skills come from arcane warrior that means spirit blade was always part of their abilities unlike in dao where it based on increasing strength and smiliar not summoning blade.

 

Iron Bull in fact may be reaver (at least to some extent) and don't know that considering that series tries tie qunari to dragons so dragon blood may be not be required to learn reaver skills for qunari.Of course this is only theory. 

[andy6915]

I just need to point out that KE might actually be closer to the true AW than what was in DAO. Our Warden got the idea from the scattered memories of a soul so old that it doesn't even remember its own name or identity and even the game notes that it had gone mad after so long. To say such a being is a good source of information would be... Not exactly accurate, to put it lightly. Whereas Tevinter probably got books and tomes on the true style as the elves used it as, directly from the pages of elven lore and history. And somehow, using a blade made of pure energy and using barriers that protect you far better than armor seems to be much more fitting for what ancient elves would have made than the clunky style the Warden used that required REAL weapons and armor to be effective. One makes its own weapon and armor, the other needs you to actually be wearing physical weapons and armor... Guess which seems more like an arcane warrior to you, based on wording and what we know of elves? And yes the soul shows images of people in silver armor, but the Warden doesn't note the actual weight of the armor. They could have been using armor no thicker than what a mage can use in DAI, silver armor doesn't mean massive silver plate armor like I think some people imagined in their heads.

 

And further, the Warden's AW was actually much weaker to Templars than KE is. Dispelling abilities were like a death sentence for a DAO AW, your sustained abilities were your life's blood. Without them, you're just a squishy mage who is easily killed. But KE's don't rely on sustained abilities at all, their barriers and weapons can be reactivated instantly. You'd dispel their barrier only for them to put it right back up the second they simply hit you with their blade again. DAO AW's were weak in comparison.

[TheKomandorShepard]

If that was in case the warden would get just poorer version of KC what wasn't in case.AW in dao was completely different fighting style than KC/AW in inquisition , dao AW foucused on increasing physical feats , KC/AW focuses on summoning magical blade. 

[Sifr]

I have read his backstory , yes dalish don't know how to become arcane warriors , and i never said they knew or he learned this from dalish hm? He went to discover them and lived in solitude so no he couldn't learn that from KC and if somehow he did he would be Knight Enchanter , not Arcane warrior .If his skills come from arcane warrior that means spirit blade was always part of their abilities unlike in dao where it based on increasing strength and smiliar not summoning blade.

 

But Cillian wanted to become an Arcane Warrior. Even if he ended up being more of an KE than an actual AW, he'd not likely take the name of the Shemlen bowlderised version of it, would he? As a matter of pride, he'd call himself Arcane Warrior regardless of whether or not what he's doing is actually historically accurate to the AW of the past?

 

If that was in case the warden would get just poorer version of KC what wasn't in case.AW in dao was completely different fighting style than KC/AW in inquisition , dao AW foucused on increasing physical feats , KC/AW focuses on summoning magical blade. 

 

Wait, does that mean you admit that they're not the same thing since they have a totally different fighting style?

[TheKomandorShepard]

But Cillian wanted to become an Arcane Warrior. Even if he ended up being more of an KE than an actual AW, he'd not likely take the name of the Shemlen bowlderised version of it, would he? As a matter of pride, he'd call himself Arcane Warrior regardless of whether or not what he's doing is actually historically accurate to the AW of the past?

As i said avoiding he pretty much he was learning that in solitude so he would have no way learning KC that was reserved for circle mages (and loyalists) ,not to mention if in fact pride was in case he wouldn't want chantry help in first place and if there was so big difference between KC and AW he would have no use in KC.So pretty much only way for him is find something in elven ruins and learn from that ,what means pretty much elven AW and KC are very similar (pretty much same skillset) ,what isn't in case when we will take aw from dao and compare to current .

 

 

 

Wait, does that mean you admit that they're not the same thing since they have a totally different fighting style?

Yes i admit dao arcane warrior is totally different fighting style than AW/KC in Dai   (what is pretty much is what i was saying )

[Ashagar]

Of course for all we know there could have also been different schools of acrane warriors amoungst the ancient elves just as there were different schools of medival to early modern european fighting stiyles, with the english style being about defense and counters while the german school was about offenense and speical techinques, the italian school focused on footwork and speical techinques etc.

[dragonflight288]

How can it be a retcon?  I would argue that it may not in fact be a retcon de-jure, but a retcon de-facto.  Why?  Because we already have established lore from DAO (see circle tower mission) that the Templars will go to great length (and with prejudice) to keep mages from having any martial training at all.  That flies directly in the fact of the Knight Enchanter specialization which is precisely that.

 

Actually I would say that we have evidence that the templars went to great length in Ferelden to keep them from learning any martial skills. 

[Sifr]

As i said avoiding he pretty much he was learning that in solitude so he would have no way learning KC that was reserved for circle mages (and loyalists) ,not to mention if in fact pride was in case he wouldn't want chantry help in first place and if there was so big difference between KC and AW he would have no use in KC.So pretty much only way for him is find something in elven ruins and learn from that ,what means pretty much elven AW and KC are very similar (pretty much same skillset) ,what isn't in case when we will take aw from dao and compare to current .

 

Just because the Arcane Warrior inspired the Knight Enchanter, that doesn't mean that they have the same skillsets or even are that similar? A katana and longsword are both swords, but have very different fighting styles applied to them.

 

Until we actually see an Ancient Elf who's an Arcane Warrior using techniques that are those of a Knight-Enchanter, rather than a modern elf who's self-taught and attempting to recreate a forgotten fighting style, then we cannot say for certain that the two are synonymous with each other?

 

If we do see an Ancient Elf AW who uses KE skills, then yeah, it'll be a retcon and they've just rebranded it.

 

At the moment, though, they come across as two very different schools of magic, that are tangentally related.

[Ashagar]

We have eviidence for one of Ferelden's two circles and Kirkwall's circle templars did not what all the circles did and further more the knight enchanters are a elite force asscioted with the divine not any one circle so aren't limited by the speicalizations and dictates of each of the different circles but their own speical requirements.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Just because the Arcane Warrior inspired the Knight Enchanter, that doesn't mean that they have the same skillsets or even are that similar? A katana and longsword are both swords, but have very different fighting styles applied to them.

 

Until we actually see an Ancient Elf who's an Arcane Warrior using techniques that are those of a Knight-Enchanter, rather than a modern elf who's self-taught and attempting to recreate a forgotten fighting style, then we cannot say for certain that the two are synonymous with each other?

 

If we do see an Ancient Elf AW who uses KE skills, then yeah, it'll be a retcon and they've just rebranded it.

 

At the moment, though, they come across as two very different schools of magic, that are tangentally related.

Pretty much all that you have pointed is answered in post you quoted...

[Sifr]

Pretty much all that you have pointed is answered in post you quoted...

 

No, because your post said they have the same skillsets, whereas I've been saying that we've seen no evidence for it... at least not yet?

[dragonflight288]

We have eviidence for one of Ferelden's two circles and Kirkwall's circle templars did not what all the circles did and further more the knight enchanters are a elite force asscioted with the divine not any one circle so aren't limited by the speicalizations and dictates of each of the different circles but their own speical requirements.

 

It wouldn't surprise me if Knight-Enchanters are limited to Orlesian Circle's, seeing as its the heart of the Chantry.