53 réponses à ce sujet

[thats1evildude]

Never heard rabbit used against an elf in any DA media I've heard of.

 

'Rabbit' is a slur used against elves in The Masked Empire. It's considered milder than knife-ear.

[springacres]

Just because many humans are turned on by elves doesn't mean they feel comfortable talking to or interacting with them as equals, or even fully see them as people. Bann Vaughan is proof that just because he likes to sleep with elves doesn't mean he regards them as people or wants to see them treated as equals. ("If you [Revered Mother] wish to dress up your pets and have tea parties, that's your business--but don't pretend this is a proper wedding." "That's the trouble with talking to knife-ears--they occasionally get this idea in their head that they're people.") 

 

Not that most humans are anywhere near as bad as Bann Vaughan--as Leliana demonstrates above, plenty of kind, average, good-hearted humans can subconsciously and unintentionally view elves as lesser than humans without even realizing they're doing it. 

^This.  Although Vaughan isn't a bann, he's an arl's son, and I doubt he'd be quite as interested in a willing elf partner.  (To be fair to him, we have no evidence that he wouldn't treat lower-class humans the same way, but there would probably be more repercussions if he did.)

 

And one of my issues with DA2 is the hand-waving that happens when Hawke takes an elven lover.  Granted, it's probably tolerated because of Hawke's social position in acts 2 and 3, but I'd still expect some pushback.  In Origins, there seems to be less hand-waving (although I haven't yet tried romancing Zevran as a human, I did try romancing Leliana as an elf.  My character was not comfortable with continuing the relationship after the exchange Faerunner quoted, though.)

[springacres]

Yeah, the "handsome elf" dialogue line is weird enough to have when playing as a fellow elf, but the power dynamics in an elven/human relationship bug me no end.  In fact, the only way I can see myself going that route in Origins is if the human is a Circle mage, because elves are (in theory at least) treated as equal in the Circle.  So a human mage who was taken to the Circle at a young age might not be aware that elf/human relationships are frowned on in the outside world.

[springacres]

Well, based on in-game lore, there are fewer elves than humans, so even if they do have a greater propensity for magic, they may still not be represented in significant enough numbers to reach senior leadership positions in the Circle.  But you're right, there are hints that the Circle (at least the Ferelden Circle) isn't quite as racially equal as it's supposed to be.  Regardless, it's still one of the more integrated institutions in Thedas, and thus a human mage who had spent most of his or her life in the Circle might not feel quite the same way about an elf/human relationship as a Cousland or a Guerrin would.

 

Then again, they might.  Gotta love that ambiguity at which RPG writers are such experts.

[Sifr]

Never heard rabbit used against an elf in any DA media I've heard of. Knife ear is just an exaggeration of a trait for the sake of insulting, like how people used to call Asians "yellow".  Do non-Asians find Asians to be freaky looking now, because someone called them a yellow skin tone? Not really. And Leliana thinks that because she grew up in the same country that subtly practices elven slavery still, the culture where she grew up is why she thinks that and it has nothing to do with appearance.

 

"Rabbit" is used often in Masked Empire and I believe that Gaspard does use it at least once in Inquisition in reference to Briala.

 

And while I'd rather not get into a discussion about real world prejudices (even though I did obliquely refer to it in my earlier example), your argument doesn't make a lot of sense because bigotry at it's core is often based on not liking someone because of a perceived difference of some kind? As I pointed out earlier, the same example qualities might also be seen as attractive by other people?

 

But of course, it's obviously not just either/or situation and appearance and attraction are entirely subjective from person to person?

 

Take Varric for instance, who admits to finding a female Hawke to be a "beautiful woman", but at the same time, makes it clear that she simply doesn't do it for him in that way because he's got a preference for female Dwarves? It's not that he looks down on humans or finds them unattractive by any stretch of the imagination, he simply doesn't find them as attractive as the woman of his own race?

 

Same thing as Sera having a clear preference for Qunari women and makes her attraction to a female Qunari Inquisitor obvious from the start, unlike the other races? And indeed, it being somewhat harder to romance her as an elf because she's got so much disdain for other elves?

[andy6915]

Wait, isn't he?? I could have sworn I heard him called a Bann at different points. I thought he wore the honorary title of Bann while his father, the Arl of Denerim, was still alive, and then he'll get promoted to/inherent the title of Arl once his father kicks it.
 
 
 
 
Yeah, I'm not fond of DA2's hand-waving either. It seems Hawke's social position protects him/her from EVERY trouble that should realistically plague every other person in the city, including other Hightown nobles. No worry about the Templars (despite Bethany getting taken in the alternate timeline and Emile de Launcet having to stay in the Circle despite his parents also being Kirkwall nobility), no backlash for moving a mage and/or elf into his/her home (if you romance Anders or Merrill), no backlash for having an elven lover, etc.
 
I think Origins is much better about it. Alistair and an Elven Warden can discuss it at one point (he doesn't like you even though you're an elf; finds you especially attractive for it  ), and obviously it becomes a huge problem if Alistair takes the throne. Leliana has her own subconscious prejudices that get brought up in the aforementioned conversation. Morrigan is completely foreign to all society, so she thankfully doesn't share human society's prejudices against elves, but neither does she see elven culture as "so entirely different" from human culture.
 
Zevran? I don't know, because I've never played a human. One thing I noticed that bothers me is a flirt line, "There's always a use or two for a handsome elf," which he is charmed by. It struck me as odd to see that dialogue option for an Elven Warden, but then I thought about it being there for a human character and felt very uncomfortable. Granted, it's an optional dialogue option, but I'd still feel very icky if my human character casually objectified his/her love interest; especially if my character was part of a privileged majority that still exploits said love interest's people.
 
It turns up again in DA2, where one of Hawke's flirt options for Fenris is "There's always a use or two for a handsome elf," which he is apparently charmed by. 

 
Vaughan is in the exact role as the human noble at the beginning of their origin, their house leader is taking the majority of their men and leaving to go fight in Ostagar, leaving him with the duty of watching over the castle and being ACTING arl for that time.
 
Thing about Merrill is actually subtly brought up. Merrill flat-out calls Hawke crazy when s/he suggests it, and even the codex mentions it was a scandal.
 
Merrill moved into Hawke's Mansion in Hightown ― and not as a servant, much to the horror of the neighbours. She further scandalized the neighborhood by wandering around with no shoes on, picking the flowers out of other people's gardens, and cooing cheerfully at their attack dogs. Several angry letters were sent to the Champion and the seneschal, but the situation remains unchanged.

 

So yeah, there isn't a massive backlash but it is brought up. And what would the backlash be? Are people going to revoke Hawke's noble rank for it? That doesn't seem like something you can legally do for such a reason. And Hawke is the type to give so little of a f*** about what other people think that they do it anyway. In fact, I think I recall sarcastic purple Hawke basically saying it would be fun to troll the neighbors by doing so.

 

The line about Zevran, it doesn't matter if it's racist because it's a line the Warden knows Zevran well enough to know that he would actually like hearing that. For any other elf it would be bad, but not for him. He likes hearing it.

[Handsome Jack]

So Bioware already broke the lore? at DA2 hahaha. . .if they were going to do that atleast start with Origins lol

 

Exactly why I ignore 2 and Inquisition. Only Origins is canon to me.

 

Bioware's retcons and visual mishaps aren't an issue.

[DeadEyeMaster1]

The people who know about Alistair's true mother are either dead (Maric, Duncan) or have a very good reason not to reveal it (Fiona - though she could be dead too - and maybe Arl Eamon). If Loghain or any other nobles knew about this, they would have revealed it during the Landsmeet.

Talking about this, in the inquisition, I've allied the mages whose leader is exactly Fiona, and she said something to me I can barely remember but it's something connected to the Alistair's birth background, coz she's talked about the "mother" I remember. And Fiona is an elf.

[Taki17]

Talking about this, in the inquisition, I've allied the mages whose leader is exactly Fiona, and she said something to me I can barely remember but it's something connected to the Alistair's birth background, coz she's talked about the "mother" I remember. And Fiona is an elf.

Yes, Fiona is Alistair's mother. It happened in the Calling novel. But Fiona did not want Alistair to know who his true mother was, that's why Maric and Eamon led him to believe that he is the son of a Redcliffe servant.

 

If you recruit the mages and Alistair is the warden who helps you, Fiona can be heard asking about Alistair, but she will not reveal herself to her son.

[luna1124]

God, the elves were ugly in DA2.

[andy6915]

Dude, no.

 

Dude, yes. Zevran likes being considered a sexual object, he revels in it. One of the very things he lists when trying to convince you he's worth letting him join you is being able to stand around and look pretty and being a "bed warmer". He literally objectified himself before you even get the chance to, and every single time you say he's attractive in any way at all you get approval for it. He LIKES the idea of you keeping him around for the sole sake of f*cking, he literally approves of it and is more likely to side with you over the Crows for it.

 

So yes, absolutely. It's not racist, it's appealing to his personality. A personality he makes clear when he lists being a pretty decoration as one of his uses. And don't think that he actually approves of REAL racist comments. When he asks "am I an old man then" when you ask about his adventures, and you respond with "you can never tell with you elves"... You get a rather substantial amount of disapproval.

 

(around 5:09 or 5:10 for the part where he objectifies himself... And them saying you like the idea of him in your bed gets a rather clear verbal approval from him.)

 

[springacres]

I think the key word in both Zevran and Fenris' cases is "handsome".  Neither of them minds being told they're attractive.  And as andy pointed out above, Zevran likes it when you appeal to his vanity.  (Only to a certain extent, however.  During Zev's initial post-recruitment conversation, when he asked if my character could picture him doing something else, I once picked the line "Handsome elf like you?  I can think of a few things" and his reaction was along the lines of "I can picture you doing a few things, too" in a mildly scolding tone, with a small approval drop.  Had to reload that save because it wasn't the reaction I'd expected.)

 

Then, too, there's a difference in context.  In the immediate post-fight conversation, Zevran is trying to ensure his own survival, so he's trying various tactics that he thinks will appeal to the Warden to convince them of his usefulness.  I don't know that his objectifying himself in that context is necessarily a good indicator of how he would like others to treat him.

Modifié par springacres, 03 mai 2015 - 07:35 .

[andy6915]

I think the key word in both Zevran and Fenris' cases is "handsome".  Neither of them minds being told they're attractive.  And as andy pointed out above, Zevran likes it when you appeal to his vanity.  (Only to a certain extent, however.  During Zev's initial post-recruitment conversation, when he asked if my character could picture him doing something else, I once picked the line "Handsome elf like you?  I can think of a few things" and his reaction was along the lines of "I can picture you doing a few things, too" in a mildly scolding tone, with a small approval drop.  Had to reload that save because it wasn't the reaction I'd expected.)

 
No... Quite the opposite, he actually approves of that line. He doesn't just approve, it starts the romance. If you got disapproval, you said something else to cause it.
 
http://dragonage.wik...rainai/Approval
 
Do you actually enjoy being an assassin?
(available after first three conversations have taken place including "Can you teach others to be an assassin?")

    You've never killed an innocent?
        That sounds like an excuse. (-2)
        That's a very practical attitude.
        That's despicable! You're a murderer. (-5)
        I suppose that's true (-2)

    I disagree completely. (-7)
        That's different. I'm not an assassin.
        The darkspawn are monsters.
        Of course they have.
    No, you're probably right.
        I take no pleasure in killing. (-2)
        I enjoy violence, myself. (+3)
        That's a bit sick (-4)
        I know what you mean (+3)
            Handsome elf like you? I can think of a few things. (+3) (begins Romance)
            Why not? You can do whatever you like. (+3)
            Don't you have any other skills? (+1)
            No, I suppose not.

[TheMyron]

I think Elrond was half-human...

[springacres]

Huh.  You're right, I must have said something else earlier in the conversation to get his negative reaction, then.  My mistake.

 

I still don't think Zev enjoys being objectified as much as he implies he does, though.   At best, I read him as being comfortable with it rather than liking it.

[BioWareMod03]

Hello everyone. Please avoid profanity and keep it civil. Thank you.

[springacres]

After you sleep with him for the first time, if you ask him, "And what about love?" He immediately gets irritated and snaps something like, "I'm the son of a ****** and raised in a whorehouse, there is no room for love for someone like me" or something like that. (Can't find it on Youtube, since everyone keeps posting the same damn dialogue options.) What's telling is how angry he suddenly gets. Zevran rarely gets outright angry or irritated, even when he secretly disapproves. I think this shows that the Warden accidentally hit a sore spot for him; that on some level he might want or feel okay with love, but he's been conditioned to feel he's unworthy of it since he's been told all his life that he's a filthy "whoreson" (as Ignacio keeps calling him) / whorehouse urchin / assassin that's good for nothing except seducing and killing.

I've never heard Ignacio call him a "whoreson", but that may be because my Wardens to date never let the guy live after he said Zev was already dead in his eyes.

 

Anyway, back on track, this is further highlighted if you're romancing him and someone else at the same time and he asks you to choose.  When you tell him you've made your decision, even before you tell him what it is, the look on his face when he waits for you to tell him who you've chosen... the best description I can come up with is that he's like a puppy expecting to be kicked.  (Long story short, I once chose the wrong line when giving the golden mirror to Morrigan, then went to 'break up' with her - as much as you can break up with someone YOU never thought you had a romance with in the first place - and accidentally clicked Zev instead.  Epic feels and some serious Zev/Warden fluff ensued.)

[sylvanaerie]

I've never heard Ignacio call him a "whoreson", but that may be because my Wardens to date never let the guy live after he said Zev was already dead in his eyes.

 

Anyway, back on track, this is further highlighted if you're romancing him and someone else at the same time and he asks you to choose.  When you tell him you've made your decision, even before you tell him what it is, the look on his face when he waits for you to tell him who you've chosen... the best description I can come up with is that he's like a puppy expecting to be kicked.  (Long story short, I once chose the wrong line when giving the golden mirror to Morrigan, then went to 'break up' with her - as much as you can break up with someone YOU never thought you had a romance with in the first place - and accidentally clicked Zev instead.  Epic feels and some serious Zev/Warden fluff ensued.)

 

Ignacio calls him whoreson if you bring him along.  Zev gives as good as he gets.  Being with the warden is good for his self esteem I think even friended.  

[springacres]

I've always brought Zev along, but both times my Wardens heard "already dead in my eyes" and went straight into killing mode.  My Dwarf Commoner might prove less thin-skinned, however.  I would dearly love to hear what Zev has to say in response to that "whoreson" comment.

[sylvanaerie]

The only line I remember is "You're a cautious little weasel" (from Zev).  I like to think Ignacio might be one of the first Crows Zev brings down.  I love bringing Zevran to that conversation, really adds a lot to it.