88 réponses à ce sujet

[Domiel Angelus]

They toned down everybody, not just mages. Templars used to rock the socks off everybody in DA:O, now they're a very niche support style melee class. I could play all of DA:O as a templar and not ever feel like a different class was out performing me, which is probably on par with how you feel about mages now. Now I feel like if I'm not dealing specifically with demons or mages I may as well leave Templars at home because they're neigh useless. When they opened up the trees and synergies became more and more of a requirement they toned absolutely all of the fun stuff down, and if you wanted to maximize efficiency you now have to learn a spread sheet. 

 

When they removed the Warriors decision to dual wield and use bows I should have known that we were going to see massive down turns in the powers as well. 

[Gya]

Everything in DA:I seems far more limited to me than Origins and DA2 in terms of combat. And it feels as though mages suffer more from the following issues than rogues or warriors. I'm not advocating KE style OP-ness because the game is easy enough as it is, but what irks me is the many arbitrary limitations.(For balance, I should admit that I still enjoyed my rift mage PT)

1. Fewer abilities and lack of DA "staples" such as blood mage. The lack of variety in active abilities lessens the replay value by limiting potential builds. I'm sure there were reasons for leaving out blood mage, for example, as it would look pretty bad if the inquisitor was a maleficarum. Whereas the champion of Kirkwall or the hero of Ferelden, totally doesn't matter if people think they bathe in the blood of 100 slaves.

2. 8 skill limit. Seriously, wtf? "It's more tactical"? Having to reload to change your hotbar is tactics?

3. Inability to change weapons or abilities in combat. This screws mages more than most because of elemental resistances. Gee, I guess I have to spend the next 5 minutes doing 1 damage with my electric staff because this rift spawned a Pride Demon halfway through. Awesome.

4. Small battles. This renders a mage's CC options less meaningful. I'm not suggesting we go back to DA2 infinite enemy paratroopers, but larger battles would be nice. Like the battle for Haven; wall of fire is fantastic there.

5. Poorly balanced mana costs on certain spells. Does anyone use winter's grasp or lightning bolt? Didn't think so. They could certainly use a mana cost reduction to give them some semblance of appeal; for balance (lol, "balance") their damage could be reduced. They're meant to be CC, not spike damage skills. This further narrows viable CC skills. Wall of Fire, PotA,

6 Friendly fire (optional, of course). The way it has been implemented is weird and annoying, and basically means certain skills can almost never be used, or only with frustration rather than tactical planning. Immolate hits for a wider area than indicated, for example. And the battle designs don't lend themselves to friendly fire in the way that they did in DA:O. Chain lightning is generally only useable once per fight, at the beginning, from a distance. Totally worth a slot as one of only 8 abilities ill ever use!

TL;DR Lengthy, opinionated and ultimately meaningless post. None of these issues are likely to be addressed. biower I am special snowflake pls fix.

[Saphiron123]

They toned down everybody, not just mages. Templars used to rock the socks off everybody in DA:O, now they're a very niche support style melee class. I could play all of DA:O as a templar and not ever feel like a different class was out performing me, which is probably on par with how you feel about mages now. Now I feel like if I'm not dealing specifically with demons or mages I may as well leave Templars at home because they're neigh useless. When they opened up the trees and synergies became more and more of a requirement they toned absolutely all of the fun stuff down, and if you wanted to maximize efficiency you now have to learn a spread sheet. 

 

When they removed the Warriors decision to dual wield and use bows I should have known that we were going to see massive down turns in the powers as well. 

Yeah templars took a hit, but in part that's because we don't fight any actual mages... I'm not even sure the mages we fight have mana to drain. Fire mine, ice mine, fire mine, ice mine.

[Saphiron123]

When Rogues and Warriors can clearly use magic, the mage isn't "magic" anymore.

Well put. Their skills are almost magical now, versus the riposte style stab abilities they once had. I mean  a rogue could cloak in origins, but now they're like nightcrawler.

[Saphiron123]

Magic abilities in DAO were always a little overpowered weren't they? I mean, certainly that's fun, but not because it's a fantastic design choice.

 

I did enjoy playing as a mage in Inquisition, but I would agree that the enemies with magical abilities could have been a lot more interesting. I mean, we've had templars telling us for ages that a single lone mage is ultra dangerous. I think it'd be kind of nice to see what they're talking about. As it is (and kinda has been, truthfully) I've always thought the templars were kind of a bunch of pansies, because of how much danger they seem to ascribe to mages, when they're often times relatively easy to steamroll over (I'm gauging this on the normal difficulty, since that's what I play the most often. Obviously, on NM everything is going to be tougher, but I still think it'd fit story wise to make mages across difficulties a little more dangerous).

They were, but you can't really build a world where mages ruled all and a whole class of templars was created to keep them in check if they aren't a little overpowered... I mean they're meant to be a massive threat in the eyes of most people.

Like you say, a single mage should be dangerous, and abomination should be worse. My mages in origins were dangerous, my mages in DAI? Not so much.

The key was the enemy had mages who were equal to your mages, they could use the same spells, they had different lists of spells so every fight was a little different. Hell, in origins every human had a unique face. Now every mage is a copy and paste of the last one, changed only for different groups.

Flying books, ho! The only unique mages were corypheus' right hand, and the lady I fought at haven with the dark hair.

DAI didn't recycle maps, but they recycled the crap out of the enemies.



This is storm of the century, sure the graphics are a little out date, but goddamn, you could unleash nature itself. Meanwhile, the extent of the Solas' power is casting barrier 20 seconds before you are in range of the enemy so you have no shield when you get there. The gods themselves do tremble.

[Winged Silver]

They were, but you can't really build a world where mages ruled all and a whole class of templars was created to keep them in check if they aren't a little overpowered... I mean they're meant to be a massive threat in the eyes of most people.

Like you say, a single mage should be dangerous, and abomination should be worse. My mages in origins were dangerous, my mages in DAI? Not so much.

The key was the enemy had mages who were equal to your mages, they could use the same spells, they had different lists of spells so every fight was a little different. Hell, in origins every human had a unique face. Now every mage is a copy and paste of the last one, changed only for different groups.

Flying books, ho! The only unique mages were corypheus' right hand, and the lady I fought at haven with the dark hair.

DAI didn't recycle maps, but they recycled the crap out of the enemies.

 

A fair point. I suppose I just feel that the balancing issues are weird in general. Like...I want the mages to be super dangerous, so that the templars actually seem like they're doing something. But I can totally also see why making them too OP might conflict with the idea of players who wish to play as rogues or warriors (fairness, or what have you). 

 

I wonder if they could even the playing field a tad by creating different limitations, other than simply lowering the bar. I recall the Keeper specialization in DAO:A had a spell that made you immobile (just in terms of movement - casting spells was still okay), while it...strengthened your spells. Or something. While that's not really a huge disadvantage in of itself, I wonder if they could implement something similar. Immobility like that would make the rogue who could use stealth and backstab extremely useful, while the warriors attracts the other enemies. I don't know, my grasp of DA/DA themed tactics is average at best XD

[Carmen_Willow]

I miss being a Force Mage. The "substitutes" didn't come close to what you could do with that specialization. I also miss the original "walking bomb" spell. The "BOOM" was so much better in origins. I agree, the magic is much more like Skyrim magic - much less magical - much more work, and less strategic.

 

I liked the Necromancy specialization until they had to ruin it by telling me it was accomplished by shredding spirits - or the equivalent of spirit embryos. I only played it once.

[TheOgre]

Not particularly. I always play melee characters. I'd rather have mages support me as I kick ass rather than having them kick my enemies' asses for me.

 

So you'd prefer they stick to what their current role is? mere barrier casters? Before you use the "they can control enemy targets with cold.." Yeah, that's about their only secondary role.. the current fear mechanic is actually a hinderance to everyone because the creature runs from your attacks. Why do you want them running out of the big fire wall of doom, away from your party :/ Rogues and Warriors also have their own forms of crowd control that rival the frost attacks. 

[TheOgre]

They toned down everybody, not just mages. Templars used to rock the socks off everybody in DA:O, now they're a very niche support style melee class. I could play all of DA:O as a templar and not ever feel like a different class was out performing me, which is probably on par with how you feel about mages now. Now I feel like if I'm not dealing specifically with demons or mages I may as well leave Templars at home because they're neigh useless. When they opened up the trees and synergies became more and more of a requirement they toned absolutely all of the fun stuff down, and if you wanted to maximize efficiency you now have to learn a spread sheet. 

 

When they removed the Warriors decision to dual wield and use bows I should have known that we were going to see massive down turns in the powers as well. 

 

I actually found Templars to be very powerful. 9k hitting big demons that take awhile to kill for example. I agree they are more support but I don't see how they are less powerful than say DA2 or DAO.

[Baalthazar]

I just played DA:O (second time) like three months ago, but this discussion is making me want to fire it up again.

[AlanC9]

A fair point. I suppose I just feel that the balancing issues are weird in general. Like...I want the mages to be super dangerous, so that the templars actually seem like they're doing something. But I can totally also see why making them too OP might conflict with the idea of players who wish to play as rogues or warriors (fairness, or what have you).

We've already had this argument, of course. We had plenty of complaints about DA:O's class balance back in the day. Though IIRC the lousy 2H Warrior was seen as a more serious problem.

It isn't just a problem for PCs of a different class. It's also an issue for party selection.

[Domiel Angelus]

Yeah templars took a hit, but in part that's because we don't fight any actual mages... I'm not even sure the mages we fight have mana to drain. Fire mine, ice mine, fire mine, ice mine.

 

I'm not talking about drain, they were spirit damage nastiness incarnate. Here's the abilities from DA:O as an example

 

Templar characters that you could control could use the following: Sword and shield, two-handed, archery, dual wield

Templars now get: sword and shield or two-handed; when did warriors forget to use bows?

 

Baseline Warrior stuff because you had to be a warrior first:

4 trees of skills per weapon set

2 baseline power trees, including taunt hitting more people 

 

Templar powers: 

(Baked in +2 to magic and +3 mental resistance)

 

Righteous Strike (Passive) -       Each of the templar's melee hits against an enemy spellcaster drains its mana

 

Cleanse Area (30 second CD) - The templar purges the area of magic, removing all dispellable effects from those nearby. Friendly fire possible

 

Mental Fortress  (Passive)      -  Massive increase to Mental Resistance

 

Holy Smite ( 40 second CD) -     The templar strikes out with righteous fire, inflicting spirit damage on the target and other nearby enemies. If the target is a spellcaster, it must pass a mental resistance check or else loses mana and takes additional spirit damage proportional to the mana lost. All affected enemies are stunned or knocked back unless they pass physical resistance checks.  (An attack that hits everyone, not just mages)

 

Plus you can have 2 other specializations to increase the efficiency of your lack of other powers, and you don't buy passives to increase stats you get them and choose where they go. The mana drain is no longer required because enemy mages have infinite mana, they do get teleports and some ranged powers but yes they do tend to just throw out landmines. 

 

DA:I Warrior to Templar

2 Weapon Trees

1 Tank style tree (Vanguard)

1 Debuff/Control Tree (Battlemaster)

 

No baked in bonuses for picking up the class + Fetch quest to learn it

 

Activated Powers:

Blessed Blades: Damage Increase for nearby allies, improved if you're fighting demons

        2nd point :  Reduce the cooldown of Wrath of Heaven and Spellpurge when attacking enemies with Blessed Blades

Spell Purge:    Area of Effect Dispell centered on the Templar

        2nd Point :  Spell Purge now does damage when dispelling barriers and beneficial powers (600% weapon damage)

Wrath of Heaven: Stuns nearby enemies and deals damage to demons (400% weapon damage against Demons)

        2nd Point:   Increased Damage component (300%) and increases stun by 2 seconds

Passive Powers:

Maker's Will: 5% weaken chance for you and your allies; +3 Willpower

Champion of the Just: 10% increased damage against Demons; +3 Strength

There is No Darkness: Fire, Ice, Electric and Spirit Resistance increased by 10%; +3 Willpower

The Last Sacrifice: +3 Constitution; When you get knocked out, heal your party 100% and increase their damage by 50% for 10 seconds (60 second CD)

Super Power (Rally): Increase base regen, guard generation and grant damage resistance depending on what tier you use (24 second CD, 15 second Duration)

 

Even the base Templar from DA:O seems better, and the basic DA:I Templar doesn't even get the power to allow his attacks to affect spirits and spell casters, that's exclusive to the Multi-player Templar. 

[Winged Silver]

We've akready had this argument, of course. We had plenty of complaints about DA:O's class balance back in the day. Though IIRC the lousy 2H Warrior was seen as a more serious problem.

 

Yeah...it felt a little better though with the DA2 style swing mods (where it hits multiple enemies). That's at least how I made use of it. I'm not really looking to argue, just point out that there's always been something off about class balances in every game. 

 

I enjoy the hell out of playing a mage in DAO, but I also acknowledge that it has its issues. I still enjoyed Inquisition's mages (as a PC) as well, just for different reasons. I'll probably also enjoy DA4's style of magey combat. Then again, combats never been something I'm picky about in a DA game.

[KaiserShep]

Well put. Their skills are almost magical now, versus the riposte style stab abilities they once had. I mean a rogue could cloak in origins, but now they're like nightcrawler.

After completing the game as a rogue, I don't see how they're any more "magical" here than they were in Origins and DA2. Awakening made it even worse with the ridiculous animal summoning. As for stealth, what's the difference? Enemies didn't teleport and you could knock them out of stealth with an AoE attack or if you land a hit as they sneak toward you.

Nothing beats the "templar" spec, especially in Origins. How my lyrium-free Cousland was able to do holy smite and dispel magic is beyond me.

[Domiel Angelus]

In accordance with it being a Mage thread I'll also do a rundown of how terrible the new Mage is compared to the old Mage. 

 

DAO Mage Stuff

Baseline stats: Health 85 (0), Mana 110 (+15) Willpower 14 (+4), Magic 15 (+5), Cunning 11 (+1) all other stats start at 10; mana increases at 6 (+2) per level everything else is the base speed progression.

 

Base Trees:

If the Mage meets the Dexterity or Strength requirement he/she can wear any armor or wield any weapon. If you take the Arcane Warrior spec he/she uses the Magic Stat in place of Strength.

 Arcane which includes the following trees with four powers each either passive or active:

Mastery

Attunement

Field

Primal (also four)

Fire *mainly AOE damage*

Earth *CC and Defenses*

Cold  *CC, dot damage and damage boosts*

Lightning *massive damage and stamina drains*

Creation

Healing 

Enhancements

Glyphs

Summoning

Spirit

Anti-Magic

Mana Alteration

Death 

Telekinesis

Entropy

Debilitation

Hexes

Sleep

Draining

6 specializations with 4 powers each and they each have a baked in bonus for doing just acquiring the spec.

 

DA:I Mage Stuff

Restricted to light armor and staves no matter how the strength or dexterity goes. 

No Base Trees and Lost Earth Elemental Magic as a power set on its own

Trees: 

Infernal (Fire, mainly fear CCs and DoT damage, with a small amount of good AOE power)

Spirit    (Barrier Tree, Dispell and CCs learn able)

Storm   (Lightning Damage, Good quality CC and no longer affects Stamina)

Winter  (Cold damage, only active defensive power without a specialization involved, CCs available and resource management tree)

Specializations:

Knight Enchanter (Mainly deals with use of the Spirit Blade and self barrier regen, Amazing CC at the bottom of the tree, also has Fade Cloak which used to be a Spirit Warrior power *Warrior spec*)

Necromancer (Fear CCs, self healing and life after death powers, Haste ??? )

Rift Mage  (Spirit damage when it feels more like a nature tree, Heavy amounts of CC, Weakness capable powers, Firestorm ??)

Of the three specs only one has a 'super' that actually seems to fit and its still stretching it. Mages got the serious short end of the stick.

[Medhia_Nox]

Dragon Age mages are among the least impressive mages I've ever seen represented in fantasy - and all the things that DID make them interesting to me are being sidelined or solved - that being said, I'm not sure I care much what they do with their powers. 

 

Still - my Spirit focused mage was very satisfying.

[Innsmouth Dweller]

mages seem to suck in every game nowadays.

 

they used to be useless cripples at first (sling, cuz resting every 2-3 spells is annoying), killing everything with one spell later in the game. this progression curve made mage class powerful, it was worth the struggle through first half of the game.

 

mages have similar level progression as rogues and warriors now... balance is boring

[M_Helder]

Yet another bad game design direction, not to mention the lore-contradicting elements. 

 

So, the 'epic' mage-templar war breaks out and as soon as the mages are finally free of chantry's shackles, you mean to tell me that none of them actually turn to blood magic, even when seeing their comrades die in front of them? Or get possessed by a demon in the process?
Seriously, have you seen a single mage-abomination in the game (outside the main Lyrium-demons-Corypheus storyline)? Or a blood magic at play? Anywhere? 
 

Nope. It's all sunshine and rainbows in Thedas.
Not even the Venatori mages can bring anything new or even remotely life-threatening to the table. And they are supposed to be the elite of the all-mighty Tevinter mages, for Maker's sake!

 

My point is, blood magic used to be a central theme in the previous games, raising the questions of morality and whether the end truly justifies the means. 

And yet in DA:I, everyone has suddenly fallen under a severe case of amnesia and decided to use... Elemental Glyphs. Cause, hey, reasons...

[M_Helder]

This is storm of the century, sure the graphics are a little out date, but goddamn, you could unleash nature itself. Meanwhile, the extent of the Solas' power is casting barrier 20 seconds before you are in range of the enemy so you have no shield when you get there. The gods themselves do tremble.

 

This!

[Domiel Angelus]

The stupidest part of them trashing so many really cool spells/power/abilities for the sake of MP is that its a completely Cooperative experience. Its like nerfing and buffing powers of the various characters in ME3. There's no reason to super balance a game unless its initially broken like the poor Katari. 

 

They ruined healing because they wanted to sell potions, it had nothing to do with 'tactical combat' and making your players think. The casters are dense as all get out because they didn't want to deal with complicated scripting to give them more than three abilities: One shot, one type of mine and one teleport that doesn't save them anyhow. If you kill the guards of a caster he should be easy prey, but until he's the only thing on the board it should be a hard fight because he should be raining spells on you. They also completely removed stamina and mana bars from the enemies which ruined so many of the specializations that its sad. It's a massive part of why we don't get Entropy which just meant it was one less set of spells they had to generate, which is probably why they did it. 

 

It all comes down to complacency which is obviously what has happened to our beloved company. We got a beautiful but empty and boring world because they're resting in their throne going "We put Dragon Age on it, people will buy it because of that" which in a lot of people's cases like mine is true. 

[Il Divo]

We've already had this argument, of course. We had plenty of complaints about DA:O's class balance back in the day. Though IIRC the lousy 2H Warrior was seen as a more serious problem.

It isn't just a problem for PCs of a different class. It's also an issue for party selection.

 

Eh, it never was an issue for me with party selection. But then, I just rolled with an Arcane Warrior/Blood Mage so for me party selection was more about whom I wanted to hear speak, so that might not be the best criteria to go by.

 

Mages were a lot of fun in DA:O, far more than they are in DA:I. At least Rogues got a pick me up since then. Playing a Rogue in DA:O was one of the most bland experiences I've ever had.
 

[Hexoduen]

Man, after playing origins, and now I'm into BG2ee on my ipad when I'm travelling, Inquisition is just such a disappointment with magic. 

Now, mages are just like any other class. They're support classes now, not cannons, their spells are lackluster, in single player firestorm is basically a rare ability you almost never get to use. Magic doesn't feel powerful anymore, I mean Varrick shouldn't feel stronger then Solas for god's sakes.

Mages in dragon age ruled the world, the chantry exists because of them, the templar order exists because mages are one of the most dangerous things in Thedas even before they become abominations. Mages used to be able to heal wounds, cast epic spells like storm of the century, turn enemies to stone, cast fireballs and other AOE attacks... and the enemy mages were the same, no floating books and runes on the ground (seriously, the mages in origins feel 10 years ahead of the mages in inquisition, at least they had an assortment of powers to cast on you and every encounter wasn't the same).

Now an archer is stronger then a mage. Is there going to be templar order aimed at controlling archers now? I mean how useless can the lore about templars become? There were blood mages who could control your blood and make you a puppet, elemental mages who could do huge damage with chain lighting (the real chain lightning, not the watered down version in DAI). You could cause earthquakes and paralyze rooms full of enemies and blizzard didn't drain all your mana to 0, it was a tool to thin out large enemy groups.

Magic was amazing, it was one of the best parts of dragon age. It made the big difficult fights manageable (of course large scale fights aren't in inquisition either, we usually fight 5-6 at a time at most)... Now it's a set of skills that really aren't any more impressive then the skills a 2H warrior has or a thief. They aren't needed except for barrier, and even that is a joke compared to healing magic. The only summon we have now is the necromancer purple spirit creatures... makes you really miss raise dead actually. Wynne could take on Vivienne, Solas, and Dorian and mop the floor with them all.

And don't get me started on BG2, there are some seriously powerful spells in that game, balanced out by the fact that when you cast them they're gone from your list until you rest. Dragon age is as much a game about magic, whose history revolves around magic, as any series I've ever player - why is magic a total joke now? For mutliplayer balance? That's not a reason.

I miss magic that mattered, powerful magic. Magic worthy of the lore about mages that entire world is built on.

This isn't a "I'm a special snowflake and I want to be super powered" thread. I miss the variety, I miss having enemy mages that were a real threat to the party, that could hit us with fireballs and horror spells and knock my teammates out of the fight. I miss magic feeling like magic, not a two bit skill that isn't really all that different from what anyone else has.

 

+1 for your post Saphiron123, I miss the original mage class as well, be it enemies or PC.

[publius1000]

is it ironic that the best spells in da:i are fade cloak/spirit blade, which basically involve walking vivienne into melee range and holding down the button for spirit blade (6 for me) and mashing fade cloak (7) every time it's off cd? might as well give her a real sword and call it a day.

 

remember when if a revenant grabbed you it was insta-death? now the knight enchanter not only doesn't care about getting grabbed, she can stand right in front of him and duel him 1v1. on nightmare. or that one fade rift in the dlc with the 4 pride demons? ya just stand in the middle and duel 1v4, why the **** not?

[sleasye74]

Yep mana clash all day
I also like the mark of death and death cloud combo

[Lethaya]

DA:I Mage Stuff

Restricted to light armor and staves no matter how the strength or dexterity goes.

 

But that's what silverite is for! >____>