42 réponses à ce sujet

[wintersdreaming]

It's an interesting concept and theoretically something that should set this main quest apart from others. Politics are something that can be really hard to integrate into a game, but it's nice to have some quest variety, something more than just 'go there and kill things.'

 

In practice however, I can't be the only person who thought the implementation just didn't work. I've never been the most fond of timer mechanics and cleverly disguising it as something else just made me resent the quest even more. Especially since this one seems set up to punish you for trying to complete the quest, which seems...rather antithetical to what most people look for in games and escapism. The Winter Palace has caused me to abandon this game 3 times now.

 

I love politics. I hate this quest.

 

I would have liked to have seen it act like a much more complex version of the Dalish Approval quest. Maybe you have to get the approval of different groups of nobles? Or maybe doing certain things gained you the approval of one person, but lost you another? Something more, well, political feeling than just trying to run through the place before too many people notice you're gone. Also not tied up in a timer where you can't even see when the next point will drop. Just. No.

 

Anyone else have ideas?

 

[Winged Silver]

I enjoyed the idea of it. I laughed when my mage human and rogue elf both got less points in the beginning because of people's perceptions of mages and elves. Things like that were interesting, and in my mind, brought some of the attitudes that get mentioned often in game to the player (whereas in Origins, for example, if you were a mage most people just kind of shrugged it off).

 

I agree that the timer was poorly implemented. Particularly since there were multiple rooms. Like damn, is everyone whispering to each other about where the Inquisitor is going? Most normal people would have simply assumed the Inquisitor was in the next room over XD

 

That being said, I've finished the Winter Palace twice now without too much trouble. I did peruse a guide my second runthrough to see what kinds of things I missed. You may already know this, but in case not, it's much more difficult to finish the little side missions during the Winter Palace than it is to just ignore them (they leave your quest log afterwards anyway, if I remember correctly). If those are part of what's tripping you up, I highly recommend just tossing them into the back of your mind.

 

My only issue with the idea of 'gain some approval with this person, lose it with another' is that is sort of kills the idea of subtlety for me. It was a mechanic I disliked in Fallout: New Vegas as well, where I had no option to at least try to be on amicable terms with everyone. However, allowing a player to ally themselves with a certain political party could've had some fascinating consequences. It would have been a neat path to explore.

 

One of the last features I liked that I wanted to mention was that Halamshiral offered longtime players a small opportunity to make use of their codex knowledge. I enjoyed seeing the dowager and knowing that any proper noble would ask a dance of her. Felt kind of like a reward for reading the codex entries from games past. I wouldn't mind seeing this sort of thing come into play more (allowing players who know of certain nobles - perhaps from DAO or DAII - or of certain codexes to find little rewards)

[katerinafm]

I agree that while in theory court approval was a cool concept, in the end it just added stress to the whole thing because you basically had a timer and couldn't explore freely if you wanted good court approval. And 'failing' at getting court approval didn't result in anything special, it just made you reload. So you couldn't really roleplay as a character who was bad at this because at the end of the day you had to pick specific options. Sad.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

The Winter place was the King of fetch quests.

[wintersdreaming]

I laughed when my mage human and rogue elf both got less points in the beginning because of people's perceptions of mages and elves. Things like that were interesting, and in my mind, brought some of the attitudes that get mentioned often in game to the player (whereas in Origins, for example, if you were a mage most people just kind of shrugged it off).

 

I agree that the timer was poorly implemented. Particularly since there were multiple rooms. Like damn, is everyone whispering to each other about where the Inquisitor is going? Most normal people would have simply assumed the Inquisitor was in the next room over XD

 

1000% agree there. I love to see the player encountering aspects of the world Bioware has built that have, in many cases, simply been informed traits as far as gameplay goes. I don't know, I enjoyed how it made you experience of some of Thedas's social issues first hand.

 

Also I am so glad I wasn't the only one thinking that second part! haha

 

That being said, I've finished the Winter Palace twice now without too much trouble. I did peruse a guide my second runthrough to see what kinds of things I missed. You may already know this, but in case not, it's much more difficult to finish the little side missions during the Winter Palace than it is to just ignore them (they leave your quest log afterwards anyway, if I remember correctly). If those are part of what's tripping you up, I highly recommend just tossing them into the back of your mind.

 

Here I'll admit it unfortunately comes down to my personal circumstances. Timers and anxiety don't mix well, but are manageable. Timers and anxiety really don't mix well when you're playing on an xbox 360 and the game keeps freezing and crashing, extending the pressure and the experience way way past what I'm willing to put up with in my fantasy escapism. Usually, (not always haha) I play games to get away from negative stress, not create more of it.

I'd probably feel a bit differently about this quest if it would just stop glitching.

 

But in any case, I like your idea with influencing political parties as opposed siding with one group and alienating another. It's more subtle, and hopefully wouldn't lead to Fallout style frustration

[Massakkolia]

*snip*

 

I would have liked to have seen it act like a much more complex version of the Dalish Approval quest. Maybe you have to get the approval of different groups of nobles? Or maybe doing certain things gained you the approval of one person, but lost you another? Something more, well, political feeling than just trying to run through the place before too many people notice you're gone. 

Oh yes, I was sorely disappointed how very little actual politicking was involved in the whole quest. I expected Halamshiral to be my absolute favourite part of the game, but it ended up being one of the low points. It was, frankly, an unfocused mess filled with tiresome halla statue hunting. And I've read The Masked Empire. I can't imagine how alienating that quest was to players who had never even heard of Briala or Gaspard. 

 

I would have loved trying to discern the important nobles from the unpopular ones and form these mini-alliances during the ball. Leliana and Josie could have helped with this. The eaves-dropping part could have also been utilized. And borrowing OP's idea, maybe interacting with different groups of nobles could have effected the final outcome of the ball. There could have been, for example, Celene's supporters, Gaspard's supporters, and maybe some liberal-minded progressives that would like to shake things up a bit through Briala.

 

There could have been alliances, blackmailing, bribery, political debate, a duel even...you name it. Unfortunately, there was hardly any actual interaction with the nobles in Halamshiral. Socializing should have been the key part of the quest.

 

*Sigh*, so much potential wasted. I was really looking forward to an extended version of the Landsmeet (my favorite part in all of DA). 

[Xerxes52]

Once I stopped hunting for those caprice coins and ignored the eavesdropping, my enjoyment of the quest increased considerably. I've memorized the locations of the halla statues and just use them for the quest critical doors now.

 

Still hate timed missions though. Also the Grand Ballroom/Vestibule door is still broken six patches later just adds to the frustration. The other quest, "Champions of the Just" also combines broken doors and timed missions for maximum fun as well.

[Dai Grepher]

I didn't like the timer because it made me feel rushed, but I can't deny that getting back into the safe zones gave me a feeling of relief. Weird, but true. And ultimately it didn't really matter because there were more than enough ways to gain court approval. Also, if you get back to a safe zone fast enough, the point goes back up.

 

The timer did seem to make the fights better though. I felt like I had to end them quickly, rather than pull off fancy tactics and combos. It made my party seem more brutal.

 

I think you would like the timer as long as it counted down slower.

 

The true problems with Halamshiral are the lack of custom clothing, the clothing change scenes for battle areas, and not enough halla statues to get to all areas.

[devSin]

What you suggest was already there in how you could influence the outcome. There aren't really that many important players to have a more complex faction-like approval system.

Anyway, court approval is just a gimmick for that mission; it has little actual effect. It's also really easy to game (you have a grace period when you lose approval for being outside the party areas, so you can avoid all losses if you just run back to the party each time it drops, and there are some places that are incorrectly marked and act as "safe spots" where you won't lose approval), and they loaded the later stages with secrets and coins so you could always get a decent approval by the end.

[Massakkolia]

What you suggest was already there in how you could influence the outcome. There aren't really that many important players to have a more complex faction-like approval system.

Anyway, court approval is just a gimmick for that mission; it has little actual effect. It's also really easy to game (you have a grace period when you lose approval for being outside the party areas, so you can avoid all losses if you just run back to the party each time it drops, and there are some places that are incorrectly marked and act as "safe spots" where you won't lose approval), and they loaded the later stages with secrets and coins so you could always get a decent approval by the end.

We are led to believe that Orlais is a pit of vipers, driven by political ambitions. The country is defined by the Grand Game. If Bioware had chosen a different route with Halamshiral, of course faction-like setting could have worked.

 

Yes, gaining court influence is very easy. Just choosing the witty answers during the dance with Florianne pretty much fills the meter. The problem isn't how difficult or easy gaining influence is, the problem is that the system is used so poorly.  

[CDR Aedan Cousland]

"I haven't seen the Inquisitor for an entire minute!"

 

[disapproves]

[luna1124]

Court approval does make a difference. My first play-thru, Game ended because I lost all my approval. It just so happens I am getting ready to play that quest now. I hate it. I would rather do anything than hang out with these masked weird-ass people.

[katerinafm]

Court approval does make a difference. My first play-thru, Game ended because I lost all my approval. It just so happens I am getting ready to play that quest now. I hate it. I would rather do anything than hang out with these masked weird-ass people.

 

When I was playing as my 'evil' male qunari I had saved right before the...what's her name, Gaspard's sister or something that dances with you, and I already had low approval so I kept getting a game over screen as soon as I finished the dance until I picked just the right combination of dialogue options. Agh.

[devSin]

Yes, gaining court influence is very easy. Just choosing the witty answers during the dance with Florianne pretty much fills the meter. The problem isn't how difficult or easy gaining influence is, the problem is that the system is used so poorly.

But the system exists in service to the gameplay (to create tension between the talking and the exploring/fighting sections).

It's not actually a part of the plot, and doesn't really try to be one.

[Massakkolia]

But the system exists in service to the gameplay (to create tension between the talking and the exploring/fighting sections).

It's not actually a part of the plot, and doesn't really try to be one.

True. But, as far as I understand, the point of this topic is to discuss how the court approval system and the whole Halamshiral quest could have been so much more. Tying the court approval more strongly to the narrative and allowing players to truly take part in the Grand Game (instead of picking up random statuettes) would have increased my enjoyment, at least. 

[KaiserShep]

"I haven't seen the Inquisitor for an entire minute!"
 
[disapproves]

Well, this is the same party where losing a ring was a matter of life and death.

[CDR Aedan Cousland]

Well, this is the same party where losing a ring was a matter of life and death.

 

Good point.

 

I hate Orlesians.

[Darkly Tranquil]

The whole Court Approval idea was a cool concept, but the execution was off. I love the idea of an entire quest line that has to be solved through dialogue and other non-combat skills rather than combat, but the idea is done a disservice by the lack of such skills in DAI. The winter Palace could have been a perfect opportunity for the old skills from Origins like Coercion, Lock Picking, Stealing, etc. to have been worked in to a series of noncombat puzzles.

I feel like there needed to be a lot more opportunities for conversations with random nobles (in place of the eavesdropping mechanic) that would allow you to gather info to use against others or to trade for favours, which would both immerse the player more in the intrigues of the court, and would make the Court Approval system make more sense (judging the player on his skill at playing The Game rather than whether he is visible).

At the Winter Palace, I was really hoping for a puzzle game where I would be required to juggle different competing agendas, remember what characters said to use later, and generally lie, cheat, and scheme my way through the Court. Instead I got sneaking away from the party to fight strategically placed packs of goons, interspersed with the occasional cutscene. It was like the Hinterlands with fancier decor. Meh. Unrealised potential is unrealised.

[wintersdreaming]

We are led to believe that Orlais is a pit of vipers, driven by political ambitions. The country is defined by the Grand Game. If Bioware had chosen a different route with Halamshiral, of course faction-like setting could have worked.

 

Yes, gaining court influence is very easy. Just choosing the witty answers during the dance with Florianne pretty much fills the meter. The problem isn't how difficult or easy gaining influence is, the problem is that the system is used so poorly.  

 

I feel like there needed to be a lot more opportunities for conversations with random nobles (in place of the eavesdropping mechanic) that would allow you to gather info to use against others or to trade for favours, which would both immerse the player more in the intrigues of the court, and would make the Court Approval system make more sense (judging the player on his skill at playing The Game rather than whether he is visible).

 

I feel like the cutscenes were meant to achieve this - feeling like you were being judged by your ability to 'play' their dangerous Game - but they fell really short of the mark. They just didn't balance out the rest of it. 

 

Outside of gameplay mechanics there was a storytelling issue that was, not missing, but maybe lacking? The mood and atmosphere never quite settled right.

 

The closest I got to how I wanted the quest to make me feel was probably during one of Celene's earliest lines,

"We look forward to seeing you dance." 

It was just such a layered comment: the ominous warning of what you had gotten yourself into, the underhanded slight that said no one thought you up to the task, the idea that to them you are merely as powerful as a puppet jerked about on it's strings for their entertainment, and the mutual understanding that while you knew all of this was being said you couldn't acknowledge it without losing.

[Dai Grepher]

Another thing... climb out a window = -10 approval for being too obvious.

 

Climb up a lattice in a courtyard full of people = eh, no big deal, I like this song.

[wintersdreaming]

Another thing... climb out a window = -10 approval for being too obvious.

 

Climb up a lattice in a courtyard full of people = eh, no big deal, I like this song.

 

I always took Dorian with me so for my own amusement I just imagined him causing some sort of scene to cover for you. He said himself that he's good at distractions.

[Mihura]

It's an interesting concept and theoretically something that should set this main quest apart from others. Politics are something that can be really hard to integrate into a game, but it's nice to have some quest variety, something more than just 'go there and kill things.'

 

In practice however, I can't be the only person who thought the implementation just didn't work. I've never been the most fond of timer mechanics and cleverly disguising it as something else just made me resent the quest even more. Especially since this one seems set up to punish you for trying to complete the quest, which seems...rather antithetical to what most people look for in games and escapism. The Winter Palace has caused me to abandon this game 3 times now.

 

I love politics. I hate this quest.

 

I would have liked to have seen it act like a much more complex version of the Dalish Approval quest. Maybe you have to get the approval of different groups of nobles? Or maybe doing certain things gained you the approval of one person, but lost you another? Something more, well, political feeling than just trying to run through the place before too many people notice you're gone. Also not tied up in a timer where you can't even see when the next point will drop. Just. No.

 

Anyone else have ideas?

 

I found it really lacking too, the first time I played the game most of the things did not made sense.

 

For example if you are not a noble or verse in politics why would Josephine let you go there without any preparation (sure one option would be to refuse her but you would do moderately to poorly), maybe having some quests to gain entrance on the party with Gaspard or Celene or even a third party (like Morrigan and Leliana knowing which others). Making your agents going on table missions to gain influence and allies, which would influence the result of the mission.

Also if you fail at The Game, the story should go on. The consequence would be Celene getting killed and Orlais being divided, you could catch Flo but as a side mission after the main one(of course you would not have the Orlesion army in the end). 

 

There is so much they could go for, most of the fetch quests could had been replaced with side missions connected with the main story, instead we got nothing of relevance. Climbing in the middle of the garden and nothing happens? no one comments or there is no distraction with the companions. If you bring Sera shouldn't she have some information and gossip that concerns the main problem? what a waste. 
Why the companions are even there? Why would anyone lose political influence because it is gone from the party 10 minutes, you are not even the host? Why is a guy tied to the bed that no one sees, even has influence in The Game? you do nothing with the information in public.
Why is even Cole on a place that gets the influence bar depleted? I couldn't even talk to him properly, shouldn't he be at the party to reveal secrets or detect the traitor? again the companion does nothing.

 

I was really disappointing with this, I expect a lot more after TME book. We saw nothing changing with our choices, only pictures in the prologue and really poor design. 

[wintersdreaming]

Definitely agree that there should be some side quest preparation before the ball. Only two out of the eleven race/class combinations would be going into Halamshiral with any sort of experience in dealing with nobility. At the very least Bioware missed out on what could have been a funny cutscene with Josephine.

 

I inherited some very very old etiquette books from my grandmother, there were five volumes huge tomes. There's no way that Orlesian nobility isn't at least that bad.

[Elleria]

Oh yes, I was sorely disappointed how very little actual politicking was involved in the whole quest. I expected Halamshiral to be my absolute favourite part of the game, but it ended up being one of the low points. It was, frankly, an unfocused mess filled with tiresome halla statue hunting. And I've read The Masked Empire. I can't imagine how alienating that quest was to players who had never even heard of Briala or Gaspard. 

 

I would have loved trying to discern the important nobles from the unpopular ones and form these mini-alliances during the ball. Leliana and Josie could have helped with this. The eaves-dropping part could have also been utilized. And borrowing OP's idea, maybe interacting with different groups of nobles could have effected the final outcome of the ball. There could have been, for example, Celene's supporters, Gaspard's supporters, and maybe some liberal-minded progressives that would like to shake things up a bit through Briala.

 

There could have been alliances, blackmailing, bribery, political debate, a duel even...you name it. Unfortunately, there was hardly any actual interaction with the nobles in Halamshiral. Socializing should have been the key part of the quest.

 

*Sigh*, so much potential wasted. I was really looking forward to an extended version of the Landsmeet (my favorite part in all of DA). 

I agree that the whole court approval thing in Winter Palace is a let down and the above comment sums it up to what it should have been...

[KaiserShep]

I always took Dorian with me so for my own amusement I just imagined him causing some sort of scene to cover for you. He said himself that he's good at distractions.

 

This makes me think about Mass Effect 3: Citadel, and how the companion you take with you to the casino can distract the guard while you mess with the security system.