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An interesting old 2009 interview with Mr. Karpyshyn on game endings.


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#1
Rosstoration

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So I was digging through some old game magazines and ended up finding a great little piece on the poor video game endings of games from 2008 (Fallout 3, Gears of War 2 and Fable 2 were all mentioned). But tucked away in a side column was a brief but enlightening interview with Drew Karpyshyn himself.

 

I don't want to stoke fires or bring up the whole ending debacle again, I think we've all moved on from that and are looking more positively towards the future of the Mass Effect series, which is fantastic. But it's a piece worth reading and worth learning from, especially in how so spectacularly the Mass Effect 3 team didn't head the advice of it's former lead writer.

 

Also, the magazine is long out of print, and somethings are just worth archiving. I emboldened some of the more interesting thoughts.

 

What does it take to craft a good ending for a videogame story?

 

One of the big things is that we do story development first on a high level. But we do it with the lead designer, the artist, [and other key team members] working together so that everyone gets the elements they'll need. For example, [with the first Mass Effect], the art director was concerned with what would make a visually stunning ending, the designer wanted a big fight, [and that led the Saren battle]. Narratively, I made sure that the idea that Saren is indoctrinated and turns into a giant robot tied in with all the stuff established throughout the game! But that co-development - the fact that story is so integrated for the entire two to three years of the project - seems fairly rare in the industry.

 

How do you prevent game mechanics, like boss battles from getting in the way of the narrative?

 

It's a matter of having writers working side-by-side with everyone else. You have to have give-and-take: as you develop the game, you might tweak who the final boss battle will be. We considered getting inside Sovereign, but it didn't fit with the mechanics, so we changed the story to have you fight an avatar that represents Sovereign.

 

How do you balance the desire to create a series with the need for game to tell a tale of its own?

 

That's probably the trickiest part. With Mass Effect being a trilogy, we want to escalate with each chapter. We broke down the story of [the first game] into acts - become a Spectre through to the conclusion - and then we did the same for the trilogy. The first game is Act 1 - it's about discovery and learning things. Act 2 is a complication, a twist on what you learned in Act 1. And Act 3 brings it all together. We know where want the trilogy to end, so it's about picking high points along the way that feel satisfying. [With Mass Effect 2], We don't want to do that kind of thing where we leave people hanging. We'll wrap up the threads that have been playing out in that game, but we'll plant seeds so you known something is coming down the road.

 

Any insight into how the standard development process could end up neglecting the story or its ending?

 

The general feel in the industry is that most studios don't give writing that much of a priority; one of the scripters or the artists just whips something up. Or they just compartmentalize the writers, and it's very difficult to make something that feels like part of the game if you aren't involved in the process. And sometimes, deadlines just get in the way, and you don't have time to polish [the story enough].

 

Karpyshyn, D., 2009. 'Choke!'. Official Xbox Magazine, (96), pp. 63 - 64.

 

Of the actual Mass Effect 3 ending, what allegedly took place:

 

"No other writer did, either, except for our lead. This was entirely the work of our lead and Casey himself, sitting in a room and going through draft after draft.

 

Every other mission in the game had to be held up to the rest of the writing team, and the writing team then picked it apart and made suggestions and pointed out the parts that made no sense. This mission? Casey and our lead deciding that they didn't need to be peer-reviewe.d [sic]".

 

Hope some others found it an interesting read. Greatly looking forward to Mass Effect Next!


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#2
CINCTuchanka

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I mean, they decided not to have you fight a "Reaper-ized" Illusive Man at the end of ME3 because it fit the story better.  Drew K.'s story about having the Saren fight sounds like the sort of narrative compromise that was avoided in this case.  Sometimes having writers keep to themselves is good, work by committee isn't always the best.  Few would really claim that the Robo-Saren fight in ME1 was the height of narrative excellence.

 

What Drew K is speaking to is the idea that writers are isolated from the general game-making process.  What the "allegation" you quoted is speaking to are two writers exasperating themselves from the other writers.  Drew K. is speaking to writers having too little power while the "quote" is referring to two writers not having their work peer reviewed.



#3
Torgette

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I think it's fair to say the ending wasn't as fleshed out as the rest of the trilogy's ideas and concepts were. One thing Miyamoto said about Zelda 2 was that what was made was exactly what they had planned on making and nothing more - that the lack of tweaking and re-working prevented it from being a great Zelda game. Obviously every creative professional works differently, but it's true that sometimes the best ideas happen by accident and the collaborative process + time makes those "accidents" come easily. I didn't mind the ending myself as it provokes thought and debate, but it was abrupt and in some cases requires people to justify the ending to begin with or not at all and nobody wants an ending that can't stand on its own.

 

The opposite can be true too, MGS4 had two endings, the first was very short and very powerful - the second dragged on way too long.


Modifié par Torgette, 01 mai 2015 - 03:45 .


#4
Golden_Persona

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I don't want to stoke fires or bring up the whole ending debacle again, I think we've all moved on from that and are looking more positively towards the future of the Mass Effect series.

 

Being on BSN for even 5 minutes would make one realize this is far from the case lol. People are just as angry now spouting vitrol about the future of ME and ME3 (even beyond the endings) as they ever were.

 

Interesting post though, I love hearing about design philosophies from developers.

 

I will say that the first ME trilogy really was a bumpy ride on the development side of things. I mean, they even admitted they focus on the story one game at a time, which I don't think can be done successfully. Things need to be planned out from the get-go. Not set in stone, but having the motives of your enemies should be top priority. I seriously hope with this fresh start things stay consistent. I can think of so many great works that have failed due to horrendous planning and development issues (Lost, Code Geass R2, obviously ME although I don't consider any ME game to be a failure).

 

Compare that to products like Breaking Bad and Avatar TLAB which were planned out nearly every step of the way (obviously even they go through changes, but they had consistent talented staff during the whole production) and had fantastic development and conclusions.


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#5
HydroFlame20

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The mass effect 3 ending wont die as long as there is Mass effect sadly lol it would take years if anything for people to heal I give it five or ten years more years.

#6
prosthetic soul

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The mass effect 3 ending wont die as long as there is Mass effect sadly lol it would take years if anything for people to heal I give it five or ten years more years.

Nope.  I will be on my death bed still cursing the day I saw the ME 3 ending in its entirety.  It will never heal my friend.

 

St. Peter and his angels will then ask me "Are you still mad about the ME 3 endings?" and my answer will be a resounding...

 

Spoiler


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#7
Tonymac

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I think its a good read.  To get a success, it makes sense to have the writers work side by side with the rest of the development team.  This seems intuitive to me.  Everyone puts in their touch, and you can end up with a really good piece of work.   Conversely, not having the writers along with  the rest of the dev team causes a disconnect.  As the team works to breathe life into the game many good ideas could be lost by not having the writers working in parallel.  

 

In the case of ME3 and its ending, the lead writer and the executive producer 'took over' and forced the rest of the team to follow their lead - most likely due to time and budget constraints.  In either event, not having all of the development team working in unison causes less than optimal results.  The flip side to that is that the development cycle can be a rather long and drawn out process - or the job turns into a pressure cooker.  

 

What bothers me in all of this is that the mistakes made in ME3 with its endings will carry over into ME4/next/pathfinder/arcon/whatever.