211 réponses à ce sujet

[Shechinah]

(to BansheeOwnage) Was it the "-for upsurping His worshippers" part that got you?

When I gave it a glance over, I thought it was referring to Razikale too until I saw it was with a capital letter and was in reference to the Maker.  

[BansheeOwnage]

I don't find Razikale being female interesting or shocking. Honestly, isn't it weird that the other Old Gods are referred to as male? Doesn't that automatically mean they're possessed dragons or something similar, since high dragons are female?

[Heimdall]

Based on the alleged passage authored by Geldauran, one of the forgotten ones, in JOH, I don't think that's true. That passage made it seem like the FOs were against the concept of worship. It would be a big 180 to turn into the Tevinter OGs. Though maybe that's a means to an end to free themselves from what good ol' Solas did the first time around. Nice job breaking it, hero, indeed. 

I think it probably was a means to an end, they needed followers to be freed.  Then again I got the sense that Geldauran was not so much against worship as wanted to be worshiped in a different way.

[Sifr]

I think the confusion with Razikale is due to a message in Jaws of Hakkon about his alleged worshipers using the Cave of Echoes to contact him again after he went silent. But I think their message is much to vague to be taken literally. They could have been mistaken because they think all high dragons are female, or they could have been referring to Razikale's priest(ess) who is depicted as female on Razikale's carving, or they may have been hearing Mythal's voice for some reason.

 

But I am pretty sure that previous lore established all the old gods as male.

 

Except they weren't looking for a High Dragon or confusing their God with a Dragon they encountered (like the cult in Origins that believed one was Andraste reborn), the note seems to imply that they had always believed Razikale was a She?

[Heimdall]

I don't find Razikale being female interesting or shocking. Honestly, isn't it weird that the other Old Gods are referred to as male? Doesn't that automatically mean they're possessed dragons or something similar, since high dragons are female?

Not necessarily, I think they're the same type of being as the Elven Gods, not "gods" necessarily but powerful entities that we haven't seen before.

[BansheeOwnage]

(to BansheeOwnage) Was it the "-for upsurping His worshippers" part that got you?

When I gave it a glance over, I thought it was referring to Razikale too until I saw it was with a capital letter and was in reference to the Maker.  

Sorry, I'm not sure exactly what you're talking about.   Just noticed that the wiki says Razikale was worshipped like her siblings. The Old Gods are all one family?

[BansheeOwnage]

Not necessarily, I think they're the same type of being as the Elven Gods, not "gods" necessarily but powerful entities that we haven't seen before.

It just seems odd that they would refer to them as male unless they're shapechangers or something similar. And we do know some elven gods could shapeshift into dragons, though that doesn't have to be related. There just seems to be a trend of worshipping dragons in general.

[leaguer of one]

Except they weren't looking for a High Dragon or confusing their God with a Dragon they encountered (like the cult in Origins that believed one was Andraste reborn), the note seems to imply that they had always believed Razikale was a She?

or maybe the cultist had a point. Maybe the her ashes were more then ashes And she need a new form?

[Aulis Vaara]

They're using different names, that's all.

 

Why? Why bother, especially when their enemies are gone and the people they speak to don't even know of them? This makes no sense, nor does it fit what we know. They were denied dragon forms (which were reserved for the gods), so why would they be buried Dragons? And if they were buried/trapped underground, why would they not demand their followers simply dig them out? No, it seems more to me like the Forgotten Ones were simply normal elves who rebelled against their gods.

 

Plus, you know, they were kind of opposed to the whole "gods" thing.

 

 

I imagine it wasn't a question of "allowing".

 

"A soul is not forced on the unwilling." Seriously, the only way someone can get possessed is with his or her approval. I see no reason why it would be different for a dragon.

[BansheeOwnage]

"A soul is not forced on the unwilling." Seriously, the only way someone can get possessed is with his or her approval. I see no reason why it would be different for a dragon.

 

Doesn't that only apply to another person's soul, not spirits and demons? I don't remember Wynne letting that spirit possess her.

[leaguer of one]

 

 

 

 

"A soul is not forced on the unwilling." Seriously, the only way someone can get possessed is with his or her approval. I see no reason why it would be different for a dragon.

Only if the big has the will to refuse. Remember A demon can break a mind of a person to the point they can't decline.(Example:)

[Aulis Vaara]

Also, I'm pretty sure not all Elven gods were the same type of being. Mythal seems to have strong similarities to a spirit of justice (including become corrupted into vengeance, and being to possess Flemeth), yet Ghilan'nain was a normal elf before she was made a goddess by Andruil according to the stories.

​That's also why I am pretty sure the Old Gods are NOT in fact the Elven gods. However, I do think dragons were important to the Elven gods and that's why the Old Gods are in some way related to the Elven Gods. If there was a pantheon of dragon gods that could rival the Elven gods, don't you think the Elves would have tried to take their power? Or at least wouldn't they have been part of their lore?

 

Doesn't that only apply to another person's soul, not spirits and demons? I don't remember Wynne letting that spirit possess her.

 

1. Wynne thought she was dead.
2. Wynne couldn't survive further without the spirit.
3. Justice still had Kristoff's memories.

Are we sure the actual Wynne was still alive here? Though she wasn't decomposing, of course. Still, it seems like such a borderline case.

Regardless, if demons did not need your permission to possess you, there would be a whole lot more possessions. Like every person who dreams themselves into the Fade without realizing it. They wouldn't even resist, because they wouldn't be aware of the danger, they're dreaming afterall.

[Aulis Vaara]

Only if the big has the will to refuse. Remember A demon can break a mind of a person to the point they can't decline.(Example:)

 

Indeed. Tried to break the will of any dragons lately?

[leaguer of one]

Indeed. Tried to break the will of any dragons lately?

Spoiler

Into the jaws of hakkon dlc the Hakkonits to have a concoction that makes being(that includes Animals like bears and dragons) open and weaken to allow Possession...So yes, it can be done.

[leaguer of one]

Also, I'm pretty sure not all Elven gods were the same type of being. Mythal seems to have strong similarities to a spirit of justice (including become corrupted into vengeance, and being to possess Flemeth), yet Ghilan'nain was a normal elf before she was made a goddess by Andruil according to the stories.

​That's also why I am pretty sure the Old Gods are NOT in fact the Elven gods. However, I do think dragons were important to the Elven gods and that's why the Old Gods are in some way related to the Elven Gods. If there was a pantheon of dragon gods that could rival the Elven gods, don't you think the Elves would have tried to take their power? Or at least wouldn't they have been part of their lore?

 

 

1. Wynne thought she was dead.
2. Wynne couldn't survive further without the spirit.
3. Justice still had Kristoff's memories.

Are we sure the actual Wynne was still alive here? Though she wasn't decomposing, of course. Still, it seems like such a borderline case.

Regardless, if demons did not need your permission to possess you, there would be a whole lot more possessions. Like every person who dreams themselves into the Fade without realizing it. They wouldn't even resist, because they wouldn't be aware of the danger, they're dreaming afterall.

It more of a how long the body is dead that's the issue. With kristoff his soul was long gone but Wynne and Evangeline it was mere moments.

[Heimdall]

Why? Why bother, especially when their enemies are gone and the people they speak to don't even know of them? This makes no sense, nor does it fit what we know. They were denied dragon forms (which were reserved for the gods), so why would they be buried Dragons? And if they were buried/trapped underground, why would they not demand their followers simply dig them out? No, it seems more to me like the Forgotten Ones were simply normal elves who rebelled against their gods.
 
Plus, you know, they were kind of opposed to the whole "gods" thing.

Maybe they were literally unable to use their old names. Maybe when their names were erased by the pantheon they did something more profound than making an official edict. Maybe they needed to abandon their names to use dragon forms. Or maybe they just wanted to redefine themselves. Maybe their enmity extended to no longer wishing to be known by the names the elves knew them by. There are myriad reasons they would change their names. I'm convinced that the Forgotten ones and the Elven Gods are the same type of being, whatever they are, that chose different paths.

I'm not convinced of that interpretation of Geldauran's words.
 
 

"A soul is not forced on the unwilling." Seriously, the only way someone can get possessed is with his or her approval. I see no reason why it would be different for a dragon.

Approval can be forced, see Uldred and Tahrone.

[BansheeOwnage]

Also, I'm pretty sure not all Elven gods were the same type of being. Mythal seems to have strong similarities to a spirit of justice (including become corrupted into vengeance, and being to possess Flemeth), yet Ghilan'nain was a normal elf before she was made a goddess by Andruil according to the stories.

​That's also why I am pretty sure the Old Gods are NOT in fact the Elven gods. However, I do think dragons were important to the Elven gods and that's why the Old Gods are in some way related to the Elven Gods. If there was a pantheon of dragon gods that could rival the Elven gods, don't you think the Elves would have tried to take their power? Or at least wouldn't they have been part of their lore?

 

 

1. Wynne thought she was dead.
2. Wynne couldn't survive further without the spirit.
3. Justice still had Kristoff's memories.

Are we sure the actual Wynne was still alive here? Though she wasn't decomposing, of course. Still, it seems like such a borderline case.

Regardless, if demons did not need your permission to possess you, there would be a whole lot more possessions. Like every person who dreams themselves into the Fade without realizing it. They wouldn't even resist, because they wouldn't be aware of the danger, they're dreaming afterall.

If Ghilan'nain created all of those creatures before even becoming a god, that story is even more ridiculous! Anyway, I don't remember the specifics of Wynne's case, but I don't remember her saying "Sure, inhabit my body" or anything to that effect, that's all. I don't see how thinking you're dead changes that.

[ModernAcademic]

Maybe there are two kinds of gods. Wasn't the Elven Pantheon split between Elgarnan, Mythal, Falon Din, Dirthammen, etc and "the Forgotten Ones"?

[Kantr]

http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Razikale

 

Read this please.

 

Edit: Should have read the whole thread before posting

Oh, last time I looked at the entry it said that she was a he. Or that scholars were mistaken. ah well.

 

Still doesnt prove much evidence to the Theory. As the rise of Tevinter was after the fall of Arlathan. Cory only went into the fade because Dumat stopped talking,

[Lethaya]

Are you sure? I thought Dumat asked Cory to go to the Fade. Same with the Architect and presumably the other High Priests and their Gods, no? Perhaps I'm wrong, wouldn't be surprised. XD

 

Also, I'm pretty sure not all Elven gods were the same type of being. Mythal seems to have strong similarities to a spirit of justice (including become corrupted into vengeance, and being to possess Flemeth), yet Ghilan'nain was a normal elf before she was made a goddess by Andruil according to the stories.

​That's also why I am pretty sure the Old Gods are NOT in fact the Elven gods. However, I do think dragons were important to the Elven gods and that's why the Old Gods are in some way related to the Elven Gods. If there was a pantheon of dragon gods that could rival the Elven gods, don't you think the Elves would have tried to take their power? Or at least wouldn't they have been part of their lore?

 

If you follow the idea that perhaps originally Elves were spirits or something similar, hence the immortality and all-magicalness they possessed before the Veil, and Kieran's lines to the Elven Quizzys, then the whole possession thing from Mythal and Ghilan-nain being able to achieve godhood and yet still be.... spirit-y isn't that unbelievable.

 

Kind of a stretch, though, I know. XD

 

 

As for the Elvhen and Old Gods, this is my current personal list:

 

Spoiler

Elgar'nan: Dumat

Falon'din: Lusacan

Dirthamen: Razikale

Andruil: Andoral

Ghilan'nain: Urthemiel

Sylaise: Toth

June: Zazikel

Mythal: Draconis?

 

Both Dumat and Elgar'nan were the eldest and heads of their particular Pantheons, for one. And then you have the take of Barindur, which seems pretty vengeful on Dumat's part to me. Like... damn. xD The main reason I linked Andoral and Andruil here is the name similarity, which isn't the strongest connection in the world, buuut, the alternate list deals with that. I'm also pretty sure that, if these guys are connected, Urthemiel = Ghilan'ain. Both represented beauty, and I thought it was interesting that Urthemiel is the only one of the Old Gods said to have sired anything (Urzara). His constellation also depicts a beautiful woman. June and Zazikel are the weakest connected, I think. Frustrating. D:<

 

As for Draconis - the Draconis constellation represents a serpintine creature, theorized by Tevinter scholars to represent a potentially now-unknown eighth Old God, long since striken from historic records. What makes this interesting is the fact that in tales Mythal took on a serpentine shape of her own, such as in her fight with Andruil.

 

Alternatively:

Elgar'nan: Dumat

Falon'din: Lusacan

Dirthamen: Andoral

Andruil: Razikale

Ghilan'nain: Urthemiel

Sylaise: Toth

June: Zazikel

Mythal: Draconis?

 

I also rather like this line up, as  both Andruil and Razikale bear feminine representation, with Razikale's constellation having ties to sacrificial tales, and both Dirthamen and Andoral represented unity, either via chains or loyalty, as well as sharing a masculine representation.
 

Basically? I have NO idea. ;D Given it what sums up to probably too much thought, though.

 

Anywho, new names could connote many things, too. Maybe their Old God names were given to them by those of Tevinter in relation to their nature, or taken to differentiate them further from everything Elvhen. Eh?

 

It's also interesting to note that codex from Mythal's temple mentioning, what, the winged form of the Gods or whatever? Dragons, perhaps?

 

Its also possible they could be the Forgotten Ones, in a kind of... anti Elvhen Pantheon kind of way. Representing similar things, taking similar prospective roles, mirroring one another, but opposing each other as well. Hum.

 

Ramblings! Sorry. XD

[MACharlie1]

I just discovered this from one of the many theorists on Youtube but...there is a hidden Codex entry that might connect the Old Gods to the Elven Pantheon.

 

 Found in the Temple of Mythal and revealed with the veilfire, there is an entry that is untranslatable unless the Inquisitor drinks from the well. To which the codex entry reads: 

 

His crime is high treason. He took on a form reserved for the gods and their chosen, and dared to fly in the shape of the divine. The sinner belongs to Dirthamen; he claims he took wings at the urging of Ghilan'nain, and begs protection from Mythal. She does not show him favor, and will let Elgar'nan judge him.

 

As we know, Mythal takes the form of a high dragon (and we know this is an ability of Mythal since her statues depict her with dragon wings and Flemeth passes the knowledge to Morrigan of becoming a dragon after drinking from the well) so there might be some overlap in the Old Gods being the Elven Pantheon or being Horocruxes of some sort. 

 

Furthermore, Draconis (the stricken eighth Old God), is the symbol we've seen before. It was all over the place in Kirkwall as a symbol of freedom and rebellion. The symbol is also seen with the statues of Fen'Harel which makes sense.

[Dai Grepher]

I don't find Razikale being female interesting or shocking. Honestly, isn't it weird that the other Old Gods are referred to as male? Doesn't that automatically mean they're possessed dragons or something similar, since high dragons are female?

 

The old gods are not high dragons, they are great dragons. Basically, the male version of winged dragons, only more powerful and more magical. The comics show this.

 

Personally, I think dragons achieve sentience when sentient beings worship them. Like people's mental energy projected at the dragon eventually expands the dragon's consciousness little by little. Which would explain the high dragon at the temple that the cultists worshiped.

[BansheeOwnage]

The old gods are not high dragons, they are great dragons. Basically, the male version of winged dragons, only more powerful and more magical. The comics show this.

 

Personally, I think dragons achieve sentience when sentient beings worship them. Like people's mental energy projected at the dragon eventually expands the dragon's consciousness little by little. Which would explain the high dragon at the temple that the cultists worshiped.

I really need to read the comics!

[Dai Grepher]

Except they weren't looking for a High Dragon or confusing their God with a Dragon they encountered (like the cult in Origins that believed one was Andraste reborn), the note seems to imply that they had always believed Razikale was a She?

 

I mean that they may have mistakenly believed that Razikale was a high dragon, and then assumed Razikale was female simply because all high dragons are female. In other words, they may have assumed that all the old gods were female.

 

They may have always believed Razikale was female, but I'm saying they may have been mistaken, or talking to something else the entire time, such as a Fade spirit, or even Mythal.

 

I just don't think that quote is enough to go on in proclaiming Razikale female. Plus, Razikale's high priest is depicted as female, so it could be possible that Razikale's worshipers were actually hearing HER voice as she spoke for Razikale.

 

I think discovering when Razikale went silent might shed some light on the matter. If these particular cultists came about much later after the old gods were imprisoned, then it would indicate that they never actually heard Razikale at all.

 

Part of the text seems to imply that they first worshiped Dumat. They say that silence has fallen, and they called out to her and received no answer. So they may have thought Dumat was female. Then they make a plea to Razikale at the end of the inscription. Now, this could mean they called out to Dumat first, got nothing back from "her", and then turned to Razikale, or it could mean that they were calling out to Razikale all along, got nothing back from "her", and then tried pleading to Razikale again for some strange reason. I would think the first option would make more sense.

[Dai Grepher]

I really need to read the comics!

 

Yep, the comics, specifically The Silent Grove, is where the existence of the great dragons is revealed.