211 réponses à ce sujet

[Lumix19]

Why do you thing I replied to jack with the pic at the top of the page?

I know but my Critical Thinking lecturer says it's important to be charitable to other people (he says it more about the arguments of other people, as in not being to literal so as to reduce their argument to one that is easily ridiculed but I digress).

 

I'd produce it if I could, though it'd be difficult to scour through all of Origins to find a single mention of an Old God's gender. Tell me this though: if all the Old Gods ever mentioned so far are "hes", then what exactly is the point of making one a female? What is gained?

Exactly what am I supposed to do with this? Scour Origins myself? Simply take your word for it? I'll do neither of these things, the former because I don't believe the evidence exists and the latter because I don't trust evidence I can't see. Nothing is lost or gained, your point seems pointless.

[Dai Grepher]

Apart from the inscriptions, the Codex entry: Mouth of Echoes seems to indicate that the worshipers had heard her voice before. And why would something impersonate her? This "impersonation theory" is far too complicated. It would involve Razikale first disappearing and then a group of worshipers stumbling across an impersonation (whether it be dragon or spirit) and then believing that this was the true Razikale (despite this new form being female) before this new form mysteriously disappears again. It's far to convoluted just to justify the idea that Razikale is not female.

 

Edit: I would also point out that Eluvia is often related to Razikale, the constellation of the young woman with her head in the clouds?

 

No, it indicates they heard a female's voice before. That doesn't mean it was Razikale. It could have been a Fade spirit, or Razikale's priestess, or even Mythal. Does a dragon even have a female sounding voice? I would think it would just be a low grumbly sound. In which case... it actually could be Flemythal voice by Kate Mulgrew.

 

JoH shows that many Fade spirits imitate the gods of the Avvar tribes. They may have done the same with the worshipers of Razikale.

 

It wouldn't involve Razikale disappearing. If the worshipers stumble across an imposter to begin with, they will just talk to it, and Razikale will ignore them.

 

Eluvia was used by the Chantry to replace Razikale as a symbol of worship/greatness. Like how Christianity overwrote Ester with Easter where we celebrate the resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. So Eluvia take over of Razikale's constellation means nothing.

[Lumix19]

No, it indicates they heard a female's voice before. That doesn't mean it was Razikale. It could have been a Fade spirit, or Razikale's priestess, or even Mythal. Does a dragon even have a female sounding voice? I would think it would just be a low grumbly sound. In which case... it actually could be Flemythal voice by Kate Mulgrew.

 

JoH shows that many Fade spirits imitate the gods of the Avvar tribes. They may have done the same with the worshipers of Razikale.

 

It wouldn't involve Razikale disappearing. If the worshipers stumble across an imposter to begin with, they will just talk to it, and Razikale will ignore them.

 

Eluvia was used by the Chantry to replace Razikale as a symbol of worship/greatness. Like how Christianity overwrote Ester with Easter where we celebrate the resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. So Eluvia take over of Razikale's constellation means nothing.

It would have to. Why would worshipers turn from the true Razikale and worship an imposter? They have a living god who talks to them, why would they abandon it? Even more so: why would Razikale let them turn to an imposter? Why would she even let an imposter exist? Regardless I'm going to employ some critical thinking here and say that 1.) I have a good reason to believe that Razikale is female (the evidence) and 2.) I have no reason to believe she is not (no evidence, mere speculation) therefore 3.) I am inclined to believe that Razikale is female.

[leaguer of one]

No, it indicates they heard a female's voice before. That doesn't mean it was Razikale. It could have been a Fade spirit, or Razikale's priestess, or even Mythal. Does a dragon even have a female sounding voice? I would think it would just be a low grumbly sound. In which case... it actually could be Flemythal voice by Kate Mulgrew.

 

JoH shows that many Fade spirits imitate the gods of the Avvar tribes. They may have done the same with the worshipers of Razikale.

 

It wouldn't involve Razikale disappearing. If the worshipers stumble across an imposter to begin with, they will just talk to it, and Razikale will ignore them.

 

Eluvia was used by the Chantry to replace Razikale as a symbol of worship/greatness. Like how Christianity overwrote Ester with Easter where we celebrate the resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. So Eluvia take over of Razikale's constellation means nothing.

1. Nothing stated in the codex said they heard her from the fade. Re read the codex.

2. Added the teventer worshipers were there for years reporting to the main temple before the Razikale went silent. it's not a confusion nor an impostor

3. And you clearly don't get what going on with the Avvar gods. The spirirts aren't imitating there gods...They are there gods.

4. And you don't understand the silence of Razikale is in line with the silence of the old god that happen in old tevintor.

5.Also, eluivia is not used as something to be worship. it's a change of lore for a constellation. 

[Dai Grepher]

just because the main temple in in one place does not mean it's nearest to the resident of the god. if that were so the chantry would be in fereldin instead of Orlias. The main temple being there could be there because it's closer to the seat of power of tevintor. You don't think it's odd the a temple of a old god is here that connected to permanente  ice cave where a dragon god is sealed? Soeey, but the main temple does not mean being some where else does not mean this old god is not in the basen.

Also..http://dragonage.wik...r_Inscription_2

"Silence has fallen. Those who call out to her in dreams hear nothing. Our letters to the capital go unanswered. No supplies have been sent, and our messengers do not return from the north. We are alone. Razikale, O Shadow Which Obscures the Path Ahead, deliver your faithful, save us from the silence which devours."

 

 

And they refur  to the old god of mystery as her...it's clear.

 

And third, it very clear it's the old of mystery...

 

Line form line...

"To She Who Winds the Skein of Wisdom, we dedicate this citadel. Dragon of Mystery, bestow upon your faithful servants your ineffable truth. Grant us eyes to pierce the darkness and souls to bear the wounds of your labyrinth."

 

And do you really think Razikale was anywhere near the Frostback Basis? Look, the old gods were of Tevinter, which means they would be closer to the capitol, not out in the wilderness where no one lives.

 

The Chantry comparison is apples and oranges. We're talking about something that is the center of worship, not a place in which the religion's figure head resides. Moreover, the Chantry spreads the word across all of Thedas. The old gods each had Tevinters split up into their own factions. Each old god would be where the majority of the worshipers are, which would be near the capitol. The Minrathous temple is the original, while the Basin temple is a mere afterthought. Razikale would have been near the original temple, or at least in a more highly populated area. The only way I picture Razikale in a remote area is if he was pulling some kind of "survive the trials of such and such if you seek true enlightenment" sort of thing. In which case that would defeat the entire concept of building a temple and just reaching out to him in dreams.

 

Inscription 2 was explained already. This only works if you read my posts. The beginning of that inscription refers to "silence", which could mean Dumat. That would make sense with the end of the inscription which makes a plea to Razikale. Why would they make such a plea if they already established that it was Razikale who went silent?

 

"She Who Winds the Skein of Wisdom" is a title. Indicated by the fact that each word is capitalized. A Skein is like a ball or frame that collects a string or series of something. This "She" is one who collects wisdom, not one who dispenses it. This indicates that the "she" is actually Razikale's priestess. Razikale dispenses the wisdom, and the priestess collects it. This is no different from Dumat speaking to Corypheus.

[Dai Grepher]

It would have to. Why would worshipers turn from the true Razikale and worship an imposter? They have a living god who talks to them, why would they abandon it? Even more so: why would Razikale let them turn to an imposter? Why would she even let an imposter exist? Regardless I'm going to employ some critical thinking here and say that 1.) I have a good reason to believe that Razikale is female (the evidence) and 2.) I have no reason to believe she is not (no evidence, mere speculation) therefore 3.) I am inclined to believe that Razikale is female.

 

They would if they were ill-informed to begin with. Or they might speak to the real Razikale but never actually delve in to the issue of its gender. Perhaps that came much later, after the imposter starts answering the worshipers.

 

Keep in mind, none of these worshipers would have seen Razikale in the flesh. These people were all in the Basin. Razikale was nowhere near that area.

 

Razikale, assuming it does know when people are reaching out to it, would have many followers to listen to and answer. So having one sect drop off the radar wouldn't even register. And even so, he might just figure they stopped believing, or died.

 

1. What evidence?

 

2. I think Origins confirms all old gods are male, but I will check and get back on it.

 

3. That says it all. Believe whatever you want to believe.
 

[leaguer of one]

And do you really think Razikale was anywhere near the Frostback Basis? Look, the old gods were of Tevinter, which means they would be closer to the capitol, not out in the wilderness where no one lives.

 

 

First of all they are not. If they are then why was one in fereldin during the 5th blight, Aventiva in 4th, the Navara in the 3rd, and orlais in the 2nd and the anderfalls in the 1st. They are not in teventor...if they were all the blights would be in teventor.

 

 

The Chantry comparison is apples and oranges. We're talking about something that is the center of worship, not a place in which the religion's figure head resides. Moreover, the Chantry spreads the word across all of Thedas. The old gods each had Tevinters split up into their own factions. Each old god would be where the majority of the worshipers are, which would be near the capitol. The Minrathous temple is the original, while the Basin temple is a mere afterthought. Razikale would have been near the original temple, or at least in a more highly populated area. The only way I picture Razikale in a remote area is if he was pulling some kind of "survive the trials of such and such if you seek true enlightenment" sort of thing. In which case that would defeat the entire concept of building a temple and just reaching out to him in dreams.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Center of worship does not mean the physical location of there god. 

 

 

Inscription 2 was explained already. This only works if you read my posts. The beginning of that inscription refers to "silence", which could mean Dumat. That would make sense with the end of the inscription which makes a plea to Razikale. Why would they make such a plea if they already established that it was Razikale who went silent?

The 2nd inscription was about her going silent with all the old gods at the time. Which in line with the lore stating before the magesters tried go into the fade the old god went silent. It was not just dumat it was all the old gods.

 

 

 

"She Who Winds the Skein of Wisdom" is a title. Indicated by the fact that each word is capitalized. A Skein is like a ball or frame that collects a string or series of something. This "She" is one who collects wisdom, not one who dispenses it. This indicates that the "she" is actually Razikale's priestess. Razikale dispenses the wisdom, and the priestess collects it. This is no different from Dumat speaking to Corypheus.

THAT'S NOT A TITLE THAT A DESCRIPTION.

[Dai Grepher]

1. Nothing stated in the codex said they heard her from the fade. Re read the codex.

2. Added the teventer worshipers were there for years reporting to the main temple before the Razikale went silent. it's not a confusion nor an impostor

3. And you clearly don't get what going on with the Avvar gods. The spirirts aren't imitating there gods...They are there gods.

4. And you don't understand the silence of Razikale is in line with the silence of the old god that happen in old tevintor.

5.Also, eluivia is not used as something to be worship. it's a change of lore for a constellation. 

 

1. The texts state that the veil is thin in the cave, and so they plot to turn it to their own devices. They also say they reach out to the old gods in dreams. So yes, the Fade is used for this.

 

2. Reporting to the main branch and requesting supplies is irrelevant to this issue.

 

3. Really? The spirits are the ones who moved mountains and cried rivers? Come off it man. The Avvar know the spirits are not the Avvar gods. They continue to pray to them because they need each other.

 

4. I understand what happened to the old gods, but those worshipers didn't. So what else didn't they know? Hmmmm.

 

5. I agree, and that's what I wrote in my reply.

[leaguer of one]

1. The texts state that the veil is thin in the cave, and so they plot to turn it to their own devices. They also say they reach out to the old gods in dreams. So yes, the Fade is used for this.

 

2. Reporting to the main branch and requesting supplies is irrelevant to this issue.

 

3. Really? The spirits are the ones who moved mountains and cried rivers? Come off it man. The Avvar know the spirits are not the Avvar gods. They continue to pray to them because they need each other.

 

4. I understand what happened to the old gods, but those worshipers didn't. So what else didn't they know? Hmmmm.

 

5. I agree, and that's what I wrote in my reply.

1.The text said they only tried to contacted her through fade once she became silent.

2.You don't get it. that shows the old god is not at the main temple....All the old gods are not at the main temples.

3. this what is stated by the avvar. The avvar literally say the spirits are their gods. that is what they believe fully.

4.It mean they were talking to their female dragon god for years at that area before she went silent.

5. it also mean it has no reliance to the topic.

[Jackums]

Also, not that I use David Gaider as a source, but for those who do...
 
http://forum.bioware...e-3#entry508158
 
He says the old gods are not the elven gods. Again, not that I consider his statements canon, especially not now that he's no longer involved in the series. The story could go anywhere, but those are the words of the lead writer at the time, for any who are interested.

He didn't explicitly state anything of the sort. He said that the Elven religion predates the cult of the Old Gods. Emphasis on religion and cult, not "pantheon" and "old gods." These are belief systems he's separating, not the entities of worship themselves. 

 

That said, I don't necessarily think the Elven Pantheon are the Old Gods, though I'm very confident they're related.

[Dai Grepher]

First of all they are not. If they are then why was one in fereldin during the 5th blight, Aventiva in 4th, the Navara in the 3rd, and orlais in the 2nd and the anderfalls in the 1st. They are not in teventor...if they were all the blights would be in teventor.

 

Center of worship does not mean the physical location of there god. 

 

The 2nd inscription was about her going silent with all the old gods at the time. Which in line with the lore stating before the magesters tried go into the fade the old god went silent. It was not just dumat it was all the old gods.

 

THAT'S NOT A TITLE THAT A DESCRIPTION.

 

You're referring to a point in time AFTER the Maker imprisoned them. Obviously the Maker would imprison them all in different places. Otherwise the darkspawn would have found all of them in a close proximity to each other and cause a blight that was sevenfold.

 

Not automatically, but it is the more likely place. Certainly more likely than a remote area like the Frostback Basin.

 

Fine, but the beginning of the inscription could easily refer to Dumat. The end then makes sense, as they would logically turn to Razikale for instruction.

 

A description of what though? Not Razikale. The worshipers see Razikale as the dispenser of wisdom, not the collector of it. That is a job for Razikale's priestess, as depicted in the store carving.

[Dai Grepher]

He didn't explicitly state anything of the sort. He said that the Elven religion predates the cult of the Old Gods. Emphasis on religion and cult, not "pantheon" and "old gods." These are belief systems he's separating, not the entities of worship themselves. 

 

That said, I don't necessarily think the Elven Pantheon are the Old Gods, though I'm very confident they're related.

 

No, he clearly wrote that the old gods are not based on the elven gods, and Tevinter would have no reason to do so. He also wrote that the elven gods would have no reason to instruct Tevinter to stomp all over the elves.
 

[leaguer of one]

You're referring to a point in time AFTER the Maker imprisoned them. Obviously the Maker would imprison them all in different places. Otherwise the darkspawn would have found all of them in a close proximity to each other and cause a blight that was sevenfold.

 

Not automatically, but it is the more likely place. Certainly more likely than a remote area like the Frostback Basin.

 

Fine, but the beginning of the inscription could easily refer to Dumat. The end then makes sense, as they would logically turn to Razikale for instruction.

 

A description of what though? Not Razikale. The worshipers see Razikale as the dispenser of wisdom, not the collector of it. That is a job for Razikale's priestess, as depicted in the store carving.

1.You have no Idea what your talking about. Let's  make one thing strait. As of dai, we no the lore about the maker cursing the world with the blight is false. Added, the old gods are at the locations they are now well before the blights started and teventor worshiping them.

 

2.You do understand the the old god of beauty(5th blight) was even father and more remote place then teventor and it's make temple of worship was in teventer?

 

3.No, it;s not Dumat. he would of been stated.

4.Of the old god of mystery. Nothing in the description says anything about collecting wisdom. "winds" is a synonym of spreading.

[Dai Grepher]

1.The text said they only tried to contacted her through fade once she became silent.

2.You don't get it. that shows the old god is not at the main temple....All the old gods are not at the main temples.

3. this what is stated by the avvar. The avvar literally say the spirits are their gods. that is what they believe fully.

4.It mean they were talking to their female dragon god for years at that area before she went silent.

5. it also mean it has no reliance to the topic.

 

1. You're mistaken. Reaching out in dreams was their only method.

 

2. It shows nothing of the sort. Why would correspondence with the main temple prove that Razikale is not at the main temple?

 

3. If that's true then it only makes them truly deluded, as could have been the case with the worshipers of Razikale.

 

4. But how do you know? Razikale wasn't there with them, otherwise they would have known why he went silent.

 

5. Exactly. Glad we agree on that at least.

[madrar]

To the OP:  this basic theory has come up a handful of times over on the Lore boards, most obviously in the Dirthamen=Dumat dissection of the mosaic collections.  The core conflict (and resulting identity crisis) runs deeper than that, though.  If you examine religious beliefs found throughout Thedas, a persistent pattern emerges:

 

1)  A new religion is established.  Its earliest records suggest a distinctly humanistic bent with a focus on social harmony, free will, and balance.

 

2)  As time passes, these beliefs seem to twist from the inside, the religion's tenets being used to slowly but ever more stridently exalt the rule of Order and its dominance over the individual.

 

This is true of what we know of ancient Elvhen practice, the Tevine worship of Old Gods, the Andrastean Chant, and the Qun.  In the case of Tevinter and the Chant, the two we know best in game, both Dumat and the Maker seem to be the respective ropes in a tug-of-war between two oppositional philosophies.

 

In the case of Dumat, these sides are represented by Dirthamen-Falon'din and Elgar'nan.  There's little doubt that when "Dumat" first came into contact with humanity the entity behind the mask was Dirthamen-Falon'din: his original, non-dragon form reflects Dirthamen's history, he came in dreams, he gifted humans with magic, he demanded no sacrifice or obeisance.  That said, there's just as little doubt (in my mind, at least) that the "Dumat" worshipped at the height of the Tevinter Empire had been usurped entirely by Elgar'nan.  His fingerprints mark every aspect of Dumat's worship: the focus on electricity, the twined double-dragon DNA motif, even the hexagonal beehive flooring and honeycomb-like furnishings in his temples.   

 

I realize I probably need to write up a whole cosmogony walkthrough for anyone to take the above seriously, but the thought is kind of daunting.  TwT   It would be really, really long.  

 

That aside, I would tweak your Tevine Gods <-> Elvish Pantheon association like so:

 

Dumat, the Dragon of Silence - Dirthamen

Agreed.  While the "Dumat" that Tevinter worshipped at the time of his release was no longer Dirthamen, I believe Dirthamen's OGS was trapped inside the dragon they recognized as Dumat, and released when it was killed.  

 

Zazikel, the Dragon of Chaos and Old God of freedom - Andruil

Andruil's personal history points to her existence as an agent of Chaos, a counterpoint to Elgar'nan's Order.  This is also supported by Sera's perspective, if you adopt the popular theory that she's currently carrying Andruil's memory-wiped OGS.  Stick it to the Big Hats, yeah?

 

Toth, the Dragon of Fire - Sylaise

This is probably accurate.  Sylaise and her relationship to "fiery" Order is problematic, but the only alternative seems to be Toth as False-Sun-Elgar'nan, which gives him double duty in the Tevine pantheon.  Not impossible, but much less likely.  

 

Andoral, the Dragon of Slaves - June

Agreed.  June's relationship to dwarves is particularly interesting here, since we have evidence that there was something distinctly disturbing about the dwarves' dealings with early Kirkwall and the massive underground prison in which we find Corypheus.  It was clearly dwarven-built for another purpose long before the first Blight, abandoned, and then adopted by the Grey Wardens.  One of the most telling points is in one of Corypheus' early lines to Hawke after he establishes they are human but not citizens of the Empire: he immediately assumes "slaves, then, to the Dwarves?" pointing to an age of human-dwarven relations seemingly forgotten in modern Thedas.   Bonus crackpot theory: the local dwarven population unwittingly exposed themselves to red lyrium in their attempt to destroy Elgar'nan's focus (the red lyrium idol recovered from fleeing elvhen taking refuge in Cad'halash) and essentially became agents of his will.  The timeline is wonky, but it's a compelling narrative and we have evidence at least some of the imprisoned were post-civil-war elvhen in the ancient murals found in a few of the cells.

 

Urthemiel, the Dragon of Beauty - Ghilan'nain

Ghil often gets shoehorned here simply because everything else seems like more of a mismatch, but ignoring her connection to beautiful, graceful halla, I think the case could be argued in terms of a different kind of elegance: her skillful mastery of genetics.  The Chant revealed in WoT2 seems to hint that the promised "designs" may have been genetic in nature, further inferring that the Architect may be our most likely candidate for the Priest of Urthemiel.  

 

Razikale, the Dragon of Mystery - Mythal

If there was ever any doubt, the JoH DLC has pretty much laid it to rest.  Razikale's domain (and its point-by-point correlation with Mythal) is a theme that's hammered pretty hard.

 

Lusacan, the Dragon of Night - Falon'Din... or Elgar'nan.

Nailing down this association is rough.  The primary problem with Falon'din's connection to owls, night, the moon, etc in Dalish myth is that it directly counters what I believe his source to have been.  Dirthamen and Falon'din are two halves of a united whole: fragments of Order (Elgar'nan) and Chaos (the Sun) forced into the same body to create balance.  From this perspective, FD is Chaos- he's the active, aggressive, impulsive counter to Dirthamen's contemplative, static status quo.  Associating him with night, even assuming an inversion of his domain as part of his 'punishment', seems like a stretch.

 

That said, an association with Elgar'nan isn't impossible.  His attempt to usurp the domain of the Sun, presenting himself as the False Sun, points to his true domain: darkness, night, void.  Again, the fact that Dumat is already a convincing tug-of-war between Elgar'nan and Dirthamen-Falon'din leaves the door open for either to do double-duty in the Tevine pantheon.

 

To further complicate the issue, as always, each of these "gods" is simply a mask for a real entity: and one that doesn't necessarily map to the OGS-manned dragons we know as Archdemons.  Since I think Falon'Din's powers are what make it possible for entities to be shuffled into and out of OGS vehicles via the fade, I'm not sure it's possible that he himself is inhabiting one in the physical world... meaning that between him and Mythal, we're either left with the one Archdemon we really, really don't want loose, or Elgar'nan never took dragon form and we may already be out of archdemons to distract the darkspawn with Blights.  

[Dai Grepher]

1.You have no Idea what your talking about. Let's  make one thing strait. As of dai, we no the lore about the maker cursing the world with the blight is false. Added, the old gods are at the locations they are now well before the blights started and teventor worshiping them.

 

2.You do understand the the old god of beauty(5th blight) was even father and more remote place then teventor and it's make temple of worship was in teventer?

 

3.No, it;s not Dumat. he would of been stated.

4.Of the old god of mystery. Nothing in the description says anything about collecting wisdom. "winds" is a synonym of spreading.

 

1. We do? And where does it say that? Also, proof that the old gods were in what locations?

 

2. I already answered that. The Maker imprisoned them all in different locations. Even if you want to believe they were in those locations already, they were still sealed miles underground somehow. In which case their followers would know what happened. The ones in the basin did not. Which means they had no direct contact with Razikale, at the very least.

 

3. Not necessarily. Referring to "silence has fallen" could be a reference to Dumat, the Dragon of Silence.

 

4. Winds is a synonym of collecting, not spreading.

[leaguer of one]

1. You're mistaken. Reaching out in dreams was their only method.

 

2. It shows nothing of the sort. Why would correspondence with the main temple prove that Razikale is not at the main temple?

 

3. If that's true then it only makes them truly deluded, as could have been the case with the worshipers of Razikale.

 

4. But how do you know? Razikale wasn't there with them, otherwise they would have known why he went silent.

 

5. Exactly. Glad we agree on that at least.

1. The fact that the grey wardens know where the old gods are physically means that not the omly method.

2.Because all  the blights would be in teventer. We already went over this. 1st in anderfall, 2nd in orlis, 3rd in Navarra, 4th in Antiva, 5th in Fereldin and no the old gods were never moved by any one or thing.

3.Yes, she was there.

[leaguer of one]

1. We do? And where does it say that? Also, proof that the old gods were in what locations?

 

2. I already answered that. The Maker imprisoned them all in different locations. Even if you want to believe they were in those locations already, they were still sealed miles underground somehow. In which case their followers would know what happened. The ones in the basin did not. Which means they had no direct contact with Razikale, at the very least.

 

3. Not necessarily. Referring to "silence has fallen" could be a reference to Dumat, the Dragon of Silence.

 

4. Winds is a synonym of collecting, not spreading.

1. *points at every blight location...
*point at lore in the arbor wilds.

*points at Solas and Mythal.

Added...http://dragonage.wik...nd_imprisonment

And for the last time they were trapped well before human worshiped them.

2.No, the make did not trap them..the dread wolf did.

3.No, it refers to the time the old god were silents. It stated in the lore.

4. No it's not...http://www.thesaurus...browse/wind?s=t

[leaguer of one]

No, he clearly wrote that the old gods are not based on the elven gods, and Tevinter would have no reason to do so. He also wrote that the elven gods would have no reason to instruct Tevinter to stomp all over the elves.
 

That's not what it says and your not getting that the statement is from a perspective of an in lore character.

[BansheeOwnage]

I'd discredit Razikale being a female simply because there was no indication he wasn't a he in Origins, which to me is the baseline and Word of God for canon. Inquisition randomly making Razikale a woman to satiate the gratuitous whining of SJWs and progressives doesn't mean Razikale is actually a female. It means Bioware is losing their writing skills and very quickly.

Well... that escalated quickly.

[BansheeOwnage]

I'd produce it if I could, though it'd be difficult to scour through all of Origins to find a single mention of an Old God's gender. Tell me this though: if all the Old Gods ever mentioned so far are "hes", then what exactly is the point of making one a female? What is gained?

Do you know how many other questions as dumb as the one you just asked I could think of? What's the point of not making one female? What's the point of not making them all female? What's the point of Cole's hat? I mean, seriously?

[indorio]

One question i'm asking myself while reading through the discussion here is if it's really relevant which gender the dragon actually has? If we make the assumption that there is a connection between the old gods and for instance the elven pantheon (which I personally believe there is) couldn't the dragons only be powerful vessels for part of the elven spirit/soul? So when the disciples of the old gods are hearing their god (in their dreams) they are actually hearing said elven pantheon member? Do we have any other records from other disciples then Dumat and Razikale (who could genderize their god)? Killing the archdemon you might find that the actual dragon were male and thus the records could state the old god as male. But as we have seen when it comes to the soul of Urthemiel it has travelled from the dragon, to Kieran, to Flemeth (to Solas?). So the physical gender and the genus of the soul might not be relevant (they don't have to over lap).

[Jackums]

No, he clearly wrote that the old gods are not based on the elven gods, and Tevinter would have no reason to do so. He also wrote that the elven gods would have no reason to instruct Tevinter to stomp all over the elves.
 

Within the world. It's contextual. He was saying that the people of Thedas don't associate the two and that the Old God cults did not consider the two entities related. He did not confirm or deny anything as to how it actually is behind the scenes. 

 

His justifications as to why the Elven gods would not want Tevinter to destroy Arlathan is also his giving context to the perspective of the people of Thedas, and is again not a direct statement from him saying the entities themselves are unrelated.

 

"Consider also that it was the Old Gods that taught humanity its magic and encouraged them to destroy Arlathan -- why would elven gods do this? One could point to the Forgotten Ones (look at the codex entry on Fen'Harel for their mention) and suggest that they had reason for vengeance, though that would probably be against Fen'Harel and their good brethren and not against the elven people themselves, no? Still, all of that depends on how much of the knowledge given by Dalish tales is complete."

 

His whole post was explaining the origins of both groups from the point of view of the people of Thedas.

[megageeklizzy]

I'm pretty sure that Dumat is Mythal and Andraste.  

[Aulis Vaara]

Something to mention: there seem to be two groups of Forgotten Ones, the ones that Andruil hunted in the Void, and then there's Anaris, Geldauran, and Daern'thal, who seem more like rebellious elves. Rebellious elves seem like the kind of people that Solas would hang around with, whatever creatures that live in the Void, not so much.

 

 

 

That said, there's just as little doubt (in my mind, at least) that the "Dumat" worshipped at the height of the Tevinter Empire had been usurped entirely by Elgar'nan.  His fingerprints mark every aspect of Dumat's worship: the focus on electricity, the twined double-dragon DNA motif, even the hexagonal beehive flooring and honeycomb-like furnishings in his temples.   

 

I realize I probably need to write up a whole cosmogony walkthrough for anyone to take the above seriously, but the thought is kind of daunting.  TwT   It would be really, really long.  

 

 

 

Razikale, the Dragon of Mystery - Mythal

If there was ever any doubt, the JoH DLC has pretty much laid it to rest.  Razikale's domain (and its point-by-point correlation with Mythal) is a theme that's hammered pretty hard.

 

 

 

To further complicate the issue, as always, each of these "gods" is simply a mask for a real entity: and one that doesn't necessarily map to the OGS-manned dragons we know as Archdemons.  Since I think Falon'Din's powers are what make it possible for entities to be shuffled into and out of OGS vehicles via the fade, I'm not sure it's possible that he himself is inhabiting one in the physical world... meaning that between him and Mythal, we're either left with the one Archdemon we really, really don't want loose, or Elgar'nan never took dragon form and we may already be out of archdemons to distract the darkspawn with Blights.  

 

 

I would love your detailed thoughts about the first two of those. That's actually the kind of discussion I was after.

As for the latter, we're pretty sure we're not out of Archdemons, the song persists, and is even physically audible below the Western approach. Furthermore, the Wardens know where the remaining prisons of the Old Gods are. I'm pretty sure the world would know if only one was left, instead of two. Not entirely impossible of course, since those Warden shenanigans have to come from somewhere (though the truth of the blight would probably serve better here).