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[Norapinephrine]

It seems odd to be focused on the gender of the Old Gods or the Elven pantheon or anyone else who is super powerful and super inhuman. I'm not sure how the language stuff works in Thedas-- a recent replay of Legacy has me a bit confused as to how the hell Corypheus is speaking in a language Hawke and co understand-- but given how it evolves, changes and diverges in the real world, it seems entirely possible that references to gender would get mixed up weirdly in translations and interpretations; if you had, for example, Tevinters taking Elven ideas and the Elven language used a gender-neutral pronoun but the Tevinters were more sexist in favor of men and so interpreted that as "he", you'd end up with a bunch of gods who were genderless suddenly becoming men in the mythos; this can happen in a lot of other convoluted less straightforward ways as well. Throw in the change over time of social constructions of both gender and godhood and you've got a million ways for the mythos to lose stuff in translation.

[madrar]

Something to mention: there seem to be two groups of Forgotten Ones, the ones that Andruil hunted in the Void, and then there's Anaris, Geldauran, and Daern'thal, who seem more like rebellious elves. Rebellious elves seem like the kind of people that Solas would hang around with, whatever creatures that live in the Void, not so much.

Giving this one more shot, since the boards ate my last attempt. TwT This try will probably be much less coherent, so if anything seems pulled right out of nowhere or doesn't make sense, just ask- I'll double back and elaborate.

Anyway! I'm not sure the Forgotten Ones can be considered a united faction. I think it’s basically a catch-all term for elvhen whose crimes against the Pantheon were considered grave enough to justify blotting their names/existence from society and historic record. In reality, I think they probably ran the gamut, from Chaos-for-the-sake-of-Chaos anarchists, to those whose infractions probably weren't objectively serious but were punished harshly as Elgar’nan’s rule became increasingly draconic (heh), to those who were driven to rebellion when it became clear the old Order had to be torn down to create a new one.

Spoiler

Side note: being stricken from history was only part of the Forgotten Ones' punishment. One of the ToM codices strongly suggests imprisonment in one of Ghilan’nain’s abyssal forms and exile to the void was standard fare for treason, pointing to Fen’Harel’s temporary membership among the Forgotten Ones in the time he spent as the monstrous Dread Wolf. (full explanation buried here).

From what we know of Solas, I think it's safe to say he tends to fall on the far end of the spectrum, taking action (particularly violent action) only when absolutely necessary. That said, once he was committed to the cause, he couldn't afford to be picky about his allies. Reflections on those days come up in his party banter with Sera:

Spoiler

Solas: Once you have the aristocracy weakened, Sera, you will have to redirect your lieutenants.
Sera: Oh, this again. All right, what am I doing?
Solas: Some of your forces, valuable until now, have no interests beyond creating disruption. Chaos for its own sake. They must be repositioned where they can do no harm, or removed if necessary. You replace them with organizers willing to build a new system and carry out the ugly work that must be done.
Sera: What? Why? What ugly work?
Solas: That is up to you. Do you wish to disrupt the nobility, secure a title? Or change the political structure entirely?
Sera: None of it! I don't want any of that!

Note that this also gives us a potential context for the Forbidden Ones. Elgar’nan could imprison rebels who survived the revolution in the Void, but the spirits of the dead were beyond his reach. And again, we’re given a hint in Solas’ banter with Sera: “Some of your forces, valuable until now, have no interests beyond creating disruption. ... They must be repositioned where they can do no harm, or removed if necessary.” Falon’Din’s OGS power, I believe, is the ability to redirect souls via the fade- a bit like an eluvian is able to move physical bodies from place to place. Once he had no more use for them as allies, these fringe elements -too dangerous to be unleashed on the physical world again- were left trapped within the fade. They retained some measure of their former selves, including their knowledge of blood magic (an established tool of the failed rebellion) and sought to continue the fight the only way they could: through the human tribe that became the Tevinter Imperium.

Getting back to Andruil: whether or not you subscribe to the theory that Sera is carrying her memory-wiped OGS, it’s clear even from Dalish fragments that Andruil was fundamentally wild - a Chaotic foil to her sister Sylaise, represention of community and social Order. Given that, she’s an obvious suspect to be a thorn in Elgar’nan’s side, and we have some evidence (by way of the Temple of Mythal) that she seriously overstepped her bounds at least once.

Of all the mosaics of Pantheon members, two share a very distinct circular pattern of tiles in the center of their foreheads: June and Andruil. In June’s case, knowing what we do about his connection to the dwarves and his potential identity as their literal forefather, it’s not an unreasonable leap to suggest that this pattern might represent an ancient Elvhen tranquility brand, cutting him off from the fade.



I would argue that Andruil’s mark is the same, though I would imagine it was received far less willingly.

Keep in mind that Elgar’nan had very limited options in terms of controlling or punishing her. Passing a death sentence would be meaningless, given her alliance with Dirthamen-Falon’din and his domain. Similarly, her personal relationship with Ghilan’nain precluded imprisonment because the monstrous abyssal forms relied on Ghil’s cooperation. Cutting her off from magic seems to have been his only viable option.

This, however, didn't seem to have had the desired effect. Rather than turning Andruil into a compliant lapdog, lore suggests she became more determined and desperate. And from this perspective, Andruil’s trips to the Void take on another meaning: she was not hunting for prey, but allies. She ventured into the Pantheon’s prison, suffering longer periods of (rebellious) madness each time she returned, howling things “meant to be forgotten”- an apt description of rebel ideals silenced by the existing Order.
 

I would love your detailed thoughts about the first two of those. That's actually the kind of discussion I was after.

Hmm. The Dirthamen-Falon'din <= / !=> Dumat thing is tough to explain without getting pretty deep into how I think the DA universe works, which I can't seem to do without turning into Dagna ("I’m telling you, the universe is ALIVE") Or Mordin ("Dalish myth combines two prehistoric cataclysms: creation of moon and later dinosaur/dragon extinction event. Sun 'touching' the Earth is metaphor for meteor impact. Order vs Chaos from the very beginning, but Order not inherently evil: radiation from Sun is genetic Chaos- oppositional 'fire at the heart of the world' forms protective geomagnetic field for life, etc, etc...")

Might give it a shot later anyway, though. >w< I'm sure it'd give the writers a good laugh.

Mythal <=> Razikale, on the other hand, has much firmer in-game support. It’s just a matter of breaking down what we know of Mythal and matching it, point by point, with her Tevinter-warped version. We know from the ToM that ancient elvhen paid homage by walking her labyrinth, a metaphor for the twists and turns of life. (The branching of Mythal's tree iconography is similar, suggesting potential diverging paths toward the future.) These concepts are tied together by the nature of her domain, the Fade- the literal spirit of her former incarnation, Earth, and window into the Thedas-limited multiverse. The fade is potential in its raw form, the ultimate indeterminate state. As Cole describes it, “In the soft, thin places, spirits push with memories that didn't happen. Or did. Or might. Before the door is open. They could let the cat out, and it would always be alive." The obvious reference here is to Schrodinger -and by extension chaos theory, event divergence, and the multiverse- and the significant word is “might”. The fade is not just a reflection of the past, but also a window into potential futures. Mythal, as Flemeth, is infamous for guiding players and NPCs alike toward an end that only she can perceive. "I nudge history, when it's required. Other times, a shove is needed." And though less pointedly relevant here, the fade is also the source of emotion for (non-dwarf) sentient beings.

Compare that to what we know of Razikale. Her priests describe themselves as “those who serve the twisted path”, imploring her to grant them “eyes to pierce the darkness” (a scrying/wisdom reference) and “souls to bear the wounds of your labyrinth” (emotional resilience in the face of life’s twists and turns). Razikale herself is described as “the Shadow that Obscures the Path Ahead”, suggesting that she can lift this veil at will for her chosen. This is further supported by the inscriptions that date after she disappears. Without her guidance, “the paths ahead are lost in darkness, and those who walk them find only ruin”. Razikale is also “She who winds the skein of wisdom”- a suggestive pointer to not just Fates and Norns, but also the myth of Ariadne- the wisdom Razikale grants being a metaphorical thread that guides her faithful through life's labyrinth. This basic connection could also plausibly extend to the spider iconography we find in Frostback Basin, rounding out the eternal triad we’ve come to expect:



Obviously the Avvar have interpreted these figures in a way that makes sense in their own cultural context, just as “melting Dirthamen” was adopted as Bjorn Reedbeard, or Andruil’s Vir Tanadhal adapted to fit the hunting-gathering Dalish. Still, I think the triad fits too well to be coincidental, which would put future spider symbolism squarely in Mythal's corner, along with the Dragon and the Tree.

As for the latter, we're pretty sure we're not out of Archdemons, the song persists, and is even physically audible below the Western approach. Furthermore, the Wardens know where the remaining prisons of the Old Gods are. I'm pretty sure the world would know if only one was left, instead of two. Not entirely impossible of course, since those Warden shenanigans have to come from somewhere (though the truth of the blight would probably serve better here).

The problem here is that we can't assume the Old Gods (unblighted Archdemons) are the only source of the Song of Creation. I'm not entirely sure what the source here is, honestly, but given that it seems intense enough to affect the surrounding earth, it's likely considerably more powerful than the Old Gods we know, barring Mythal and Elgar'nan. To me, it seems like either the Maker's "empty throne" means the Sun's OGS remains trapped in some form, or it's the heartbeat of the fetal Stone.  Could be both actually, given the Stone's potential to be a primordial Kieran- the first Dark Ritual.  

 

Or it might be something else entirely.  @w@    I have no idea.

[Lethaya]

Very well done post, madrar! Lot of interesting stuff there, and it's perfectly coherent, so no worries about that. ;D

 

I would rep you for it, but I'm (perpetually) out.

 

1. That horribly low res.

2. You can still clearly see one of those hands doesn't have fingers, but it does have a wing.

 

1. Well, I'm very sorry for that, hun. I hope (against all hope, I'm sure) that you can still make out the pixels alright. ;D

 

2. The hands are different because you are seeing different sides of them (and of course, they've been simplistically stylized). On the left, the hand is pointed downwards, so we're seeing the back of his hand, expressing his knuckles and tendons plainly. On the right, the hand is pointed upwards, so this time the palm is facing the viewer rather than the back of the hand as before, and the lines shown here are the creases of his palm combined with the muscles that function in relation to the thumb. The directions of the "beaks" even fit those in which your thumbs would be pointing in such a position, no?

 

Wordy description, I know. I hope that was a better job of it, though? XD Couldn't find any adequate photo references.

[Andromelek]

I think that the Forgotten Ones can be consider an united faction, otherwise Anaris wouldn't be hunting Fen after Arlathan's fall, talking about that, the myth of Fen'Harel and the tree tales place after the Gods were sealed away, meaning that both; Andruil and Anaris are free, but where the hall are they?

[Heimdall]

Well, the elven "gods" aren't really gods if Solas is anything to go by, so it wouldn't really come down to the elves so much as it would come down to a group of megalomaniacs being really good at shapeshifting. Though it's just as plausible they're either dragon abominations (like a certain DLC boss) or the Forgotten Ones (so elven "gods", but not the ones that are worshiped).

I don't want to quibble over the definition of "god" on this matter but I don't particularly trust Solas' viewpoint. He may be disillusioned about the idea of powerful entities like himself being worshipped but I don't know I that says anything about what they really were. I'm convinced they were something more than powerful mages or abominations, whatever they were.

[Bad King]

Hands don't have beaks or wings.

 

Ravens don't have knuckles or palm lines. Due to the appearance, context and positioning of the images (including their relationship with the elven orb in the painting), I'm certain that these 'ravens' are in fact Corypheus' hands:

 

 

The beaks and wings you speak of are in fact his thumbs and fingers respectively: his right hand is pointing downwards with the back of the hand facing us (his knuckles are visible) while his left hand is pointing upwards with his palm facing us (you can see the lines of his palm). Between his two hands is the focussing orb.

[Heimdall]

Ravens don't have knuckles or palm lines. Due to the appearance, context and positioning of the images (including their relationship with the elven orb in the painting), I'm certain that these 'ravens' are in fact Corypheus' hands:



The beaks and wings you speak of are in fact his thumbs and fingers respectively: his right hand is pointing downwards with the back of the hand facing us (his knuckles are visible) while his left hand is pointing upwards with his palm facing us (you can see the lines of his palm). Between his two hands is the focussing orb.

I actually think they are wings, dragon wings specifically, as in the dragon Cory has at his beck and call. Would explain the scales.

[madrar]

I think that the Forgotten Ones can be consider an united faction, otherwise Anaris wouldn't be hunting Fen after Arlathan's fall, talking about that, the myth of Fen'Harel and the tree tales place after the Gods were sealed away, meaning that both; Andruil and Anaris are free, but where the hall are they?

I... have no idea why you would think the historic basis for that myth took place after the fall of Arlathan. o_O

The most likely time frame (assuming the Dalish aren't simply substituting "Fen'harel" for Dirthamen-Falon'din) is between the failed rebellion and the successful one, probably shortly after he was restored to the Pantheon, which would have been considered a serious betrayal by surviving rebel forces.

As for Andruil, we have reason to believe that Sera is her current incarnation. Anaris is less certain, though given that the Dalish remember him as a Forgotten One, the Void is a safe bet.

[Lethaya]

Hands make sense just considering the context of the image, though - Corypheus holding the orb and using its power to destroy Haven, which is pretty literal when the event itself is considered.

 

As for the dragon, I always took the... dark branching shapes? XD Behind him as potentially symbolizing wings, thanks to that scaly texture. *shrugs*

 

I feel like Solas would be really frustrated by this discussion topic... :V

[Heimdall]

Oh! You guys are talking about the little shapes inside the circle? Those are definitely hands.

[In Exile]

I don't want to quibble over the definition of "god" on this matter but I don't particularly trust Solas' viewpoint. He may be disillusioned about the idea of powerful entities like himself being worshipped but I don't know I that says anything about what they really were. I'm convinced they were something more than powerful mages or abominations, whatever they were.

 

We see that the elven "gods" seem to be wholly reliant on tools. Solas needed his foci, which non-humans (and even blighted creatures) could slowly master. To strip him of that power without consent - to use it like technology - suggests that the "gods" are just ascended base elves in some way. That follows up on how Morrigan can transform into a dragon using the knowledge of the Well. Applied magic. 

 

The only thing we see so far that makes these "gods" unique is their body surfing, and we've seen both Corypheus and the ADs possess the ability. 

[Heimdall]

We see that the elven "gods" seem to be wholly reliant on tools. Solas needed his foci, which non-humans (and even blighted creatures) could slowly master. To strip him of that power without consent - to use it like technology - suggests that the "gods" are just ascended base elves in some way. That follows up on how Morrigan can transform into a dragon using the knowledge of the Well. Applied magic. 
 
The only thing we see so far that makes these "gods" unique is their body surfing, and we've seen both Corypheus and the ADs possess the ability.

Well, I wonder about that. I got the impression that the power stored in the Foci was Solas' own natural power, stored there by him for unknown reasons long ago.

Considering the Archdemons may be "gods" themselves and Corypheus is something altogether peculiar, I'm not sure how much that means.