129 réponses à ce sujet

[Geth Supremacy]

I feel like that's a bigger issue with developers listening to fans too much, ie: Mass Effect fans aren't really sure of what they want from a new game and Bioware is damned no matter what they do. Really the best option is for them to ignore most of us and just be as creative as possible and do what they want.

 

I agree with that as well.  I think this is a very big part of it.  I think you should always listen to the people that support you and keep your company going, at the same time there are limits.  You are making games and that should be your first priority.  If its not then thats fine....once you move too far one way and its not about the games anymore then people will just move on from your product.

 

I just don't like it because their games were amazing.  The game was the front line and all the other stuff was added to it.  Now that is reverse.  I still have not been able to complete DAI and I even tried to force myself.  I completed DA2....if that says anything.

[Bison]

Too mainstream for you hipsters

[Handsome Jack]

If you're worried about BioWare pulling back from LGBT stuff, you shouldn't be. It's a very vocal and active fanbase for them and the writers are probably meditating on any progressive criticism they receive the way Anthony Burch did with Anita Sarkeesian.

 

I really don't mind it either. Inquisition did it much better than DA2. I do have two issues with these topics in BioWare's games however -

 

1. The whole subject of homosexuality is so sanitary in Dragon Age. It lacks any substance to it because it's so prevalent and accepted, so when they do something like the Dorian storyline where suddenly it isn't, it just falls flat.

 

2. It's hamfisted. As soon as I saw and heard Krem for the first time I rolled my eyes. Everything about the character screams tryhard and checking a box.

 

The problem is, you can't really ever satisfy these kinds of progressive critics because they're never satisfied; they'd be out of a job if they were. The kinds of characters that get the Sarkeesian seal of approval have no character. As soon as they say or do anything, there has to be a way that it's problematic. Critical Theory is the core of their being. Not to mention that a lot of people that live and breathe this kind of constant moral outrage don't actually play games.

 

I can't tell if you're praising or condemning Cuckanthony and Psychokeesian or not. I really do hope you're not expressing support for their agendas.

 

The farther Bioware distances itself from the "LGBT" movement, the better off we'll all be.

[Dermain]

"The overwhelming majority of games have violence at core"

 

Yeah, because violence is the foundation that humanity built its existence upon. Durr.

 

If you want games to change that dynamic, change that dynamic in human society first.

 

That's never going to happen until SkyNet wipes us all out.

 

Or people trying to slam Spielberg for not portraying U.S. marines in 'The Pacific' as heroes but as desperate soldiers trying to survive hell. There were people who genuinely tried to do something about this because the marines were racist, cold hearted killers (as anyone would in a situation like that).

 

It's rare that you have a Pacific WWII veteran that actually wants to talk about what happened in that theater.

 

There's a reason there's usually more coverage of the European theater.

 

If you're worried about BioWare pulling back from LGBT stuff, you shouldn't be. It's a very vocal and active fanbase for them and the writers are probably meditating on any progressive criticism they receive the way Anthony Burch did with Anita Sarkeesian.

 

I really don't mind it either. Inquisition did it much better than DA2. I do have two issues with these topics in BioWare's games however -

 

1. The whole subject of homosexuality is so sanitary in Dragon Age. It lacks any substance to it because it's so prevalent and accepted, so when they do something like the Dorian storyline where suddenly it isn't, it just falls flat.

 

2. It's hamfisted. As soon as I saw and heard Krem for the first time I rolled my eyes. Everything about the character screams tryhard and checking a box.

 

The problem is, you can't really ever satisfy these kinds of progressive critics because they're never satisfied; they'd be out of a job if they were. The kinds of characters that get the Sarkeesian seal of approval have no character. As soon as they say or do anything, there has to be a way that it's problematic. Critical Theory is the core of their being. Not to mention that a lot of people that live and breathe this kind of constant moral outrage don't actually play games.

 

The issue with Dorian wasn't that he was gay, it was that he didn't want to follow tradition by marrying a women to produce an heir or two. 

 

Unfortunately, that wasn't picked up on by the audience for whatever reason.

[AlanC9]

The farther Bioware distances itself from the "LGBT" movement, the better off we'll all be.

We all will be better off? I don't see what's in it for me, since I don't have a problem with anything Bio's done in this area.

Can you sell me on it? How will I be better off if Bio listens to guys like you?

[mybudgee]

Perception is reality, so don't let some else's perception change your reality.

Uh ... No. Perception is one's biased, subjective version of reality

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

- SJWs as a group are never satisfied. Ever. That's because their analysis on games and media are hinged on the idea that authorial intent or even context is irrelevant. They see what they want to see. No, really. You have a strong independent female protagonist designed by a Japanese woman who is sexy for herself, kicks ass, with a motivation that has nothing to do with men, and SJWs still attack it for being sexist. Bayonetta dindu nuffin wronk mang.

- Luckily, SJWs are not a big market in gaming. The problem they pose is when they take their thinking and apply it to other issues. The silent majority of egalitarians in western society agree with the basic ideals of equality so they are unaware of how vindictive the internet SJW mob is, or how horrible their tactics are (censorship, harassment, humiliation, extremism, etc). Just look at Brendan Eich or Matt Taylor for example. But them potentially turning on BioWare won't bring the studio down in the least. Maybe if journalists collude to lie about BioWare to paint them as misogynists (been done to devs before) but games journalism lost whatever it had left of it's credibility last year.

- That doesn't mean you need to abandon a diverse cast of characters. It just means you can't rely on arbitrary diversity as a selling point. Not saying BioWare does that, though it probably gives off that impression. Gamers are generally apolitical when it comes to their tastes in games. If you can have a diverse cast of characters without trying to attach it to a political statement, it won't harm sales in the slightest. New Vegas has LGBT companions and characters and it sold like hotcakes. Because it was a trusted franchise and a type of game that gamers enjoyed on it's own merits.

- If BioWare goes down in a potential crash, there will be others to take their place. Even in the AAA arena, quality games are rewarded. Perhaps not the guaranteed megabucks of a Call of Duty or GTA, but there is room for developers at both the AAA and Indie level to make games that promote diversity. It's just that gamers like to focus on games as an enjoyable product rather than a (shoehorned) sociopolitical statement. Make good games first and the rest will come (hopefully).

TL;DR if BioWare sinks, it'll be because their products suck on their own merits. Not because SJWs are eternally buttblasted or because a few homophobes in the gaming community took exception to getting hit on by a guy.

[Celtic Latino]

No, I don't think BioWare's in it's 'last moments'. I just think that BioWare's products are experimental with each incarnation, a combination of what sells, what they can include, and what will generate the most positive feedback. And how to make the most money while doing all three. 

 

Having pretty much played all of BW's games (save for MDK and the Sonic game), I'd say each of their series was 'mainstream' in their time. 

 

Baldur's Gate- Pretty much designed for the 'traditional' crowd. 3 male romances (all blonde and elven) and 1 female romance (with a character that's almost universally disliked by the fanbase), all of them straight. However party members were a mixed bag as far as character types go, including ones that weren't politically correct (Edwin being magically changed to Edwina, treated as humor, Shar-Teel being misandrist, etc...). 

 

Jade Empire- The s/s romances were fade to black without a mod, the sole m/m romance was more of an afterthought (Sky). Had strong male and female characters regardless. 

 

Star Wars: KOTOR- Juhani was to be a f/f romance but she was cut (but still has dialogue). Otherwise you have your traditional romances (Bastila and Carth). Gender is a non-issue. 

 

TOR- Only straight romances, any gay content was relegated to a planet exclusive. Also met with extreme hostility by traditional SW fans. 

 

Mass Effect- 

Mass Effect 1- Asari...f/f was represented (at least, asari/FHuman couplings), otherwise s/s content was cut. Still there were male and female leaders and squadmates were evenly represented

 

Mass Effect 2- Same as ME1 though you can allude to f/f human couplings if you count Kelly Chambers. 

 

Mass Effect 3- The only ME game that acknowledged m/m romance (with one character that could be established as 'straight' now being bi, or at least available to men, and the other created exclusively (Cortez), which like any part of a series last to be introduced, the relationship wasn't deep to begin with. Also Samantha. (I don't count Diana personally, although having Jessica Chobot's cameo probably didn't hinder IGN's ratings of the vanilla game, ending and all). 

 

Dragon Age-

Origins- There's Leliana and Zevran (Sky 2.0, prefers girls but available to men). Gender and sexual views are across the board, though its pretty much established that women have prominent roles in Thedas (and in later incarnations, possibly more influence than men). 

 

DA2- Aside from Anders being given the gender-neutral treatment (could be the case of different writer as well), all romances were playersexual, an experiment in having all options (sans Sebastian) for all genders. It was actually the 'I don't want Anders hitting on me or rivalry' folk that had the most hostility to all that, even if the score was negative. Gender and sexual views across the board there too although it seemed more gender-neutral aside from Isabela's innuedo and Gamlen's remarks. 

 

Inquisition- This is probably the only BW game that I really see as caving into the mainstream movement of today honestly, and even then I think a lot of people from multiple camps overreacted. However, I also do feel the 'look at us, we have gay characters!' thing was pushed, especially from some of the interviews (Alix Winton Reegan, Miranda Raison). Sorry but some of what was said really did feel forced towards the end of those interviews. It was a more a selling point to say "look how progressive we are! We have gay characters!", especially in an era where same-sex marriage is a hot button topic. 

 

-Some people weren't happy with the straight female options (though it can be noted that gay men and women also had the same number) so naturally blamed others for it

-Dorian DID feel like a writer insert with his backstory, especially in a setting where homosexuality has been established as a non-issue. Yet I believe it's been stated that Tevinter did take a dim view towards it, but it was never shown until Inquisition and Dorian. Even despite the 'Dorian can't produce a heir' thing, the blood magic alluded to reparative therapy/brainwashing 

-Krem was not inherently a bad addition, but I do feel the whole questionnaire thing regarding identity was kind of an 'insert political views' or teaching moment thing. That felt forced and unnecessary. Maevaris wasn't given the 20 question treatment from what I've seen of the comics/read about her, she just simply was. Should've been the same way with Krem. The only way that could've been warranted was if Krem was a companion and not mere NPC (not even significant at that other than being IB's buddy). 

-Many elements of character interaction did feel like there was tip-toeing around certain gender and racial paradigms. In previous games there were villains of both genders (esp DA2), could potentially betray your party and attack (Leliana, Wynne, Zevran, Anders, Fenris, Merrill), whereas in Inquisition you had Cassandra physically assaulting Varric and the option to punch Dorian/Solas with low approval. Everyone else could either leave of their own volition (Cole, Blackwall) or make your character out to be a doormat/idiot (Vivienne), get away with everything but merely dismissable (Sera), making me think certain characters were handled 'with extra special care' so as to not offend someone. Plus very few female enemies, generally speaking. Even the story and writing itself, which can be pretty darn gritty in previous games, was given the lite treatment. I do think there were many outside influences (spokespeople in the Tumblr/SJW movement) where any little 'trigger' was potentially avoided (though of course with Tumblr there's always something to be offended by. Just the nature of people like that). 

 

BW, like any company, knows the SJ movement is what's 'in' right now. Having the support and approval of spokespeople for the movement makes money and gives a good word (whereas criticism hurts their ratings). The checkboxes keep the Tumblristo/as placated. The careful writing ensures that these people won't have a reason to lash out. Especially nowadays where anything that offends someone is up for being doxxed, shamed, harrassed, humiliated, and given a scarlet letter. 

 

But, I also add this. I do think some people who are offended by s/s relationships/transgender and content also contribute to this. As I've stated, the reaction to the straight female options in Inquisition generated enough hate as to direct anger towards the LGBT community (who has the SAME amount of options). Having the overwhelming majority of the strongest, leading roles be female (Cassandra, Leliana, Flemeth, Morrigan, Celene, Briala, Josephine, Calpurnia, Mother Giselle, potentially the Inquisitor) can make some feel threatened (I have seen complaints about most of Inquisition's leading roles being female). Also, some of the dev/mod reactions to those complaints could've contributed to that anger (all people want to be heard, no matter their opinion. Having a scathing response, no matter how well intended, can stoke those fires). 

 

My take is this. Other companies have had LGBT characters with little to no bad reactions. I've seen few complain about Arcade, Manny, Veronica or the ghoul couple in FO3. Skyrim's playersexual romance options haven't really been met with hostility. Saints Row 4's 'romances' also haven't been met with that kind of reaction. However BW, at least in the case of Inquisition, have used the LGBT community as a selling point. The bulk of the LGBT community lean towards liberal, many of them leftists. Identity politics, checkbox writing, and political correctness are the hallmarks of the leftist schools of thought. When you are merely just inclusive, things can go either way (people from all sides can find something to be offended by, but yet you stick to your guns). When your end goal is to pander to a certain political movement or group or make them your selling point, its then where you encounter more demands (and the expectation that your writing and product will mostly or exclusively cater to those of your group). 

 

I'm pretty sure if BW had went the other way and wrote the world of Thedas and Inquisition to cater to hardline right wingers, you'd have different people complaining. There'd be complaints about having female characters in battle or leadership, there'd be a demand to make it more *insert religion/dominant group* and whatever is touted isn't enough (or offensive). Do remember it was Fox News that got itself in a tizzy over Mass Effect 1's sex scene, and Jack Thompson who despises video games, and they aren't exactly liberal.   

 

Btw I love Sefton Hill's comment. And I'm not anyone's shield. Especially not McIntosh's/Sarkessian/Wu/whoever else. I'm my own person before I'm someone's tool or political voicing system. 

[Seraphim24]

No, I don't think BioWare's in it's 'last moments'. I just think that BioWare's products are experimental with each incarnation, a combination of what sells, what they can include, and what will generate the most positive feedback. And how to make the most money while doing all three. 

 

Having pretty much played all of BW's games (save for MDK and the Sonic game), I'd say each of their series was 'mainstream' in their time. 

 

Baldur's Gate- Pretty much designed for the 'traditional' crowd. 3 male romances (all blonde and elven) and 1 female romance (with a character that's almost universally disliked by the fanbase), all of them straight. However party members were a mixed bag as far as character types go, including ones that weren't politically correct (Edwin being magically changed to Edwina, treated as humor, Shar-Teel being misandrist, etc...). 

 

Jade Empire- The s/s romances were fade to black without a mod, the sole m/m romance was more of an afterthought (Sky). Had strong male and female characters regardless. 

 

Star Wars: KOTOR- Juhani was to be a f/f romance but she was cut (but still has dialogue). Otherwise you have your traditional romances (Bastila and Carth). Gender is a non-issue. 

 

TOR- Only straight romances, any gay content was relegated to a planet exclusive. Also met with extreme hostility by traditional SW fans. 

 

Mass Effect- 

Mass Effect 1- Asari...f/f was represented (at least, asari/FHuman couplings), otherwise s/s content was cut. Still there were male and female leaders and squadmates were evenly represented

 

Mass Effect 2- Same as ME1 though you can allude to f/f human couplings if you count Kelly Chambers. 

 

Mass Effect 3- The only ME game that acknowledged m/m romance (with one character that could be established as 'straight' now being bi, or at least available to men, and the other created exclusively (Cortez), which like any part of a series last to be introduced, the relationship wasn't deep to begin with. Also Samantha. (I don't count Diana personally, although having Jessica Chobot's cameo probably didn't hinder IGN's ratings of the vanilla game, ending and all). 

 

Dragon Age-

Origins- There's Leliana and Zevran (Sky 2.0, prefers girls but available to men). Gender and sexual views are across the board, though its pretty much established that women have prominent roles in Thedas (and in later incarnations, possibly more influence than men). 

 

DA2- Aside from Anders being given the gender-neutral treatment (could be the case of different writer as well), all romances were playersexual, an experiment in having all options (sans Sebastian) for all genders. It was actually the 'I don't want Anders hitting on me or rivalry' folk that had the most hostility to all that, even if the score was negative. Gender and sexual views across the board there too although it seemed more gender-neutral aside from Isabela's innuedo and Gamlen's remarks. 

 

Inquisition- This is probably the only BW game that I really see as caving into the mainstream movement of today honestly, and even then I think a lot of people from multiple camps overreacted. However, I also do feel the 'look at us, we have gay characters!' thing was pushed, especially from some of the interviews (Alix Winton Reegan, Miranda Raison). Sorry but some of what was said really did feel forced towards the end of those interviews. It was a more a selling point to say "look how progressive we are! We have gay characters!", especially in an era where same-sex marriage is a hot button topic. 

 

-Some people weren't happy with the straight female options (though it can be noted that gay men and women also had the same number) so naturally blamed others for it

-Dorian DID feel like a writer insert with his backstory, especially in a setting where homosexuality has been established as a non-issue. Yet I believe it's been stated that Tevinter did take a dim view towards it, but it was never shown until Inquisition and Dorian. Even despite the 'Dorian can't produce a heir' thing, the blood magic alluded to reparative therapy/brainwashing 

-Krem was not inherently a bad addition, but I do feel the whole questionnaire thing regarding identity was kind of an 'insert political views' or teaching moment thing. That felt forced and unnecessary. Maevaris wasn't given the 20 question treatment from what I've seen of the comics/read about her, she just simply was. Should've been the same way with Krem. The only way that could've been warranted was if Krem was a companion and not mere NPC (not even significant at that other than being IB's buddy). 

-Many elements of character interaction did feel like there was tip-toeing around certain gender and racial paradigms. In previous games there were villains of both genders (esp DA2), could potentially betray your party and attack (Leliana, Wynne, Zevran, Anders, Fenris, Merrill), whereas in Inquisition you had Cassandra physically assaulting Varric and the option to punch Dorian/Solas with low approval. Everyone else could either leave of their own volition (Cole, Blackwall) or make your character out to be a doormat/idiot (Vivienne), get away with everything but merely dismissable (Sera), making me think certain characters were handled 'with extra special care' so as to not offend someone. Plus very few female enemies, generally speaking. Even the story and writing itself, which can be pretty darn gritty in previous games, was given the lite treatment. I do think there were many outside influences (spokespeople in the Tumblr/SJW movement) where any little 'trigger' was potentially avoided (though of course with Tumblr there's always something to be offended by. Just the nature of people like that). 

 

BW, like any company, knows the SJ movement is what's 'in' right now. Having the support and approval of spokespeople for the movement makes money and gives a good word (whereas criticism hurts their ratings). The checkboxes keep the Tumblristo/as placated. The careful writing ensures that these people won't have a reason to lash out. Especially nowadays where anything that offends someone is up for being doxxed, shamed, harrassed, humiliated, and given a scarlet letter. 

 

But, I also add this. I do think some people who are offended by s/s relationships/transgender and content also contribute to this. As I've stated, the reaction to the straight female options in Inquisition generated enough hate as to direct anger towards the LGBT community (who has the SAME amount of options). Having the overwhelming majority of the strongest, leading roles be female (Cassandra, Leliana, Flemeth, Morrigan, Celene, Briala, Josephine, Calpurnia, Mother Giselle, potentially the Inquisitor) can make some feel threatened (I have seen complaints about most of Inquisition's leading roles being female). Also, some of the dev/mod reactions to those complaints could've contributed to that anger (all people want to be heard, no matter their opinion. Having a scathing response, no matter how well intended, can stoke those fires). 

 

My take is this. Other companies have had LGBT characters with little to no bad reactions. I've seen few complain about Arcade, Manny, Veronica or the ghoul couple in FO3. Skyrim's playersexual romance options haven't really been met with hostility. Saints Row 4's 'romances' also haven't been met with that kind of reaction. However BW, at least in the case of Inquisition, have used the LGBT community as a selling point. The bulk of the LGBT community lean towards liberal, many of them leftists. Identity politics, checkbox writing, and political correctness are the hallmarks of the leftist schools of thought. When you are merely just inclusive, things can go either way (people from all sides can find something to be offended by, but yet you stick to your guns). When your end goal is to pander to a certain political movement or group or make them your selling point, its then where you encounter more demands (and the expectation that your writing and product will mostly or exclusively cater to those of your group). 

 

I'm pretty sure if BW had went the other way and wrote the world of Thedas and Inquisition to cater to hardline right wingers, you'd have different people complaining. There'd be complaints about having female characters in battle or leadership, there'd be a demand to make it more *insert religion/dominant group* and whatever is touted isn't enough (or offensive). Do remember it was Fox News that got itself in a tizzy over Mass Effect 1's sex scene, and Jack Thompson who despises video games, and they aren't exactly liberal.   

 

Personally as a gay male gamer, in one way I'm quite happy that there are s/s romance options available should I so choose. I'm happy to see conventional tropes and roles challenged. In cases where gender doesn't really define a player character's role, I'm all for choice. However I don't like being made as a selling point either. I don't NEED a gay character to enjoy a game, in fact I don't even need romance (Pillars of Eternity, Fallout, pre-Skyrim Elder Scrolls. In fact I enjoyed the Mass Effect series long before ME3 came out, and then ME3 it was more just a convenience than anything else. I've learned to be quite open when it comes to making protagonists whether male, female, straight, bi, gay, lesbian, different ethnicities, etc...). I don't need celebrities voicing opinions that are 'pro' in their interview in order to make me like a product more or less. In fact, I don't even care if stereotypes are or aren't in. I've met plenty of Dorians IRL (gay stereotype being we're full of ourselves, obsessed with looks, self loathing, anti establishment/progressive, fashionable, catty, gets along well with women) just as I've also met plenty of Kaidans, Zevrans, Fenrises, Cortezes and Anders'. Even Sebastians. Some people don't like me by virtue of my existence IRL, some tolerate me (some barely, others okay), and others are accepting, whether its my race, sexuality, gender, personality, whatever. What someone says or does in a video game is irrelevant. It's just a game, and with that just a character's opinion or descriptor. And as a writer I'm more for artistic integrity than I am shoehorning or pandering. If people don't like or are offended by what I write/design, they are free NOT to like or buy it. Same with me and franchises written/design/made by others. 

 

Btw I love Sefton Hill's comment. And I'm not anyone's shield. Especially not McIntosh's/Sarkessian/Wu/whoever else. I'm my own person before I'm someone's tool or political voicing system. 

 

I think you are kind of making my point... Bioware views the sex question through the lens of set orientations, specifically cordoned off romance sequences.

 

I'm saying the discussion should be perhaps about the absurdity of labels generally or things of that nature, but they seem unwilling to move past that because again labels were originally the means by which people approached the sex question.

 

Not to mention for the most part pretty much all their games are "Bioware" characters, they just find new labels for most of them. They're sense of "progress" is built into a kind of dated infrastructure to a degree, and who can blame them it was a different time many years ago.

 

Which is again why I liked BG1 so much, no one was really anything in that game (aside from maybe Minsc and Dynaheir).

 

Actually to be even more precise that's why I liked each iteration less than the previous BG > NWN > DA

[BroBear Berbil]

I can't tell if you're praising or condemning Cuckanthony and Psychokeesian or not. I really do hope you're not expressing support for their agendas.

 

The farther Bioware distances itself from the "LGBT" movement, the better off we'll all be.

 

Nah, I'm just saying BioWare's writers probably react to the criticisms from somebody like Sarkeesian the same way - enthusiastically. This is the team that removed a plot point from Inquisition because one writer interpreted it as a "form of rape". In a series where the first game has rape. Then Kotaku tells us all to thank them [the writers]. This is the team that gets their undies in a twist if torture is even mentioned; that has a torture scene in DA:I with a fully armored victim. This series is turning to ****, I know that.

 

My support is kind of irrelevant to be honest. I think all of the writers besides Gaider are women, and Gaider is gay. They write what they write and I don't really expect them to craft a story that's relevant or gritty. Sure, I'd love it if DA had gone in a bit different of a direction after Origins, like I wish Star Wars would go in a different direction, but these things won't happen. They belong to their creators and they'll make the story they want and appeal to the audience they want.

 

In the case of Dragon Age, that story is kind of an idealized progressive world in a lot of ways. Lots of characters of different sexualities and tons of women in power.

 

I can still enjoy the series for what it is and look to other games for better stories and worlds.

[Riven326]

Agreed.

 

That's a good example of a developer not giving a damn what SJWs think and just doing what they do best.

Which is, I think, what every developer should do. They are the ones making the games and if they want to prioritize political correctness in their games, like modern Bioware so often does, then so be it. But developers who stick to a vision that does not include political correctness or choose to not let it dominate the forefront of their games, are being criticized and it's fans ostracized. Meanwhile, the developers that are trying to be as inclusive as possible, and adjusting their vision to fit that particular model, are the only ones receiving praise and pats on the back. In other words, freedom to make the games how you want unless you don't adhere to these sets of rules that society or some other outside force have created.

 

There is a very clear double standard that is being applied here.

[AlanC9]

Uh ... No. Perception is one's biased, subjective version of reality

Well, yeah, but since we don't have any access to reality, perception=reality isn't all that bad a way to describe things..

[AlanC9]

I think all of the writers besides Gaider are women, and Gaider is gay. They write what they write and I don't really expect them to craft a story that's relevant or gritty.

Hmm.... did you really mean to juxtapose these sentences in a way that seems to imply that gay men and women can't or won't write stuff that's "relevant or gritty"? I'm guessing yes, but it seems like a bit of a stretch.

Also, instead of "thinking" that all the writers besides Gaider are women, you might have tried looking at the credits.

[BroBear Berbil]

Hmm.... did you really mean to juxtapose these sentences in a way that seems to imply that gay men and women can't or won't write stuff that's "relevant or gritty"?

Also, instead of "thinking" that all the writers besides Gaider are women, you might have tried looking at the credits.

 

Not all gay men and women, just these ones. Sorry, I thought by the content of my post it was easy to tell that I was talking specifically about the Inquisition writing team and BioWare.

[AlanC9]

OK. So why did you bring up their gender and orientations? I couldn't figure out what that was doing there.

And how'd you miss the other males on the writing team? Especially Weekes, who's now the head writer.

[BroBear Berbil]

OK. So why did you bring up their gender and orientations?

 

Because I'm responding to a poster who stated.

 

 

 

The farther Bioware distances itself from the "LGBT" movement, the better off we'll all be.

 

LGBT has been brought up before in the thread in regards to Dragon Age, so it's relevant I'd say. Pointing out that the lead writer being gay might have something to do with how many LGBT characters are in the Dragon Age franchise. A heavily female writing team may also have something to do with so many powerful women in the series as well.

 

It's merely an observation, and if these are the stories they want to make and the audiences they want to attract; like I said, I'm fine with it. I just wish they executed it in a better way. Chris Avellone is straight afaik and does a better job with these issues.

[In Exile]

It's a sign of the times to come. If Cisquisition is nothing but social-justice pandering, then clearly social justice is a "big" thing right now, and that will be more catastrophic on society than anything in recent decades.

 

Again, if you think that including, I don't know, a transgendered character in a video game is a sign of the coming apocalypse, you need to get some help, man. There are probably few things less relevant than video games when it comes to social change. 

[Hellion Rex]

Again, if you think that including, I don't know, a transgressed character in a video game is a sign of the coming apocalypse, you need to get some help, man. There are probably few things less relevant than video games when it comes to social change. 

Transgressed, or transgender?

[In Exile]

Nah, I'm just saying BioWare's writers probably react to the criticisms from somebody like Sarkeesian the same way - enthusiastically. This is the team that removed a plot point from Inquisition because one writer interpreted it as a "form of rape". In a series where the first game has rape. Then Kotaku tells us all to thank them [the writers]. This is the team that gets their undies in a twist if torture is even mentioned; that has a torture scene in DA:I with a fully armored victim. This series is turning to ****, I know that.

 

My support is kind of irrelevant to be honest. I think all of the writers besides Gaider are women, and Gaider is gay. They write what they write and I don't really expect them to craft a story that's relevant or gritty. Sure, I'd love it if DA had gone in a bit different of a direction after Origins, like I wish Star Wars would go in a different direction, but these things won't happen. They belong to their creators and they'll make the story they want and appeal to the audience they want.

 

In the case of Dragon Age, that story is kind of an idealized progressive world in a lot of ways. Lots of characters of different sexualities and tons of women in power.

 

I can still enjoy the series for what it is and look to other games for better stories and worlds.

 

This is so embarrassingly ignorant about DA's development history. First off, no, DA writers were not "all women" beside DG. Patrick Weekes, the new lead writer of the series, being the most prominent example here. What I can't understand is how you'd even think this - it takes literally no time to fact check this by looking at the DA:I writing credit.

 

Secondly, and more importantly, the plot didn't get cut because it was about "rape". It got cut because it wasn't intended to be perceived as a sexual assault, but the writers - when it was pointed out to them that the whole scene could be quite filled with squick - decided that it wasn't worth it. 

 

As to torture, well, Bioware's always been against letting the player torture. They've always featured torture. They just don't believe in enabling sadism. Which is notably something other games do as well, like TW2. There's a scene where a character outright laughs at the idea Geralt would torture anyone. 

[In Exile]

Transgressed, or transgender?

 

Whoops. 

 

Apparently I butchered it enough chrome thought it was a very different word... 

[Handsome Jack]

Again, if you think that including, I don't know, a transgendered character in a video game is a sign of the coming apocalypse, you need to get some help, man. There are probably few things less relevant than video games when it comes to social change. 

 

It's a sign that some are becoming willing to accept them, is my point.

 

It's an argument for neither here nor there, though. I've made my views on transsexuals clear in the past and arguing about it will no doubt get me reported.

[BroBear Berbil]

This is so embarrassingly ignorant about DA's development history. First off, no, DA writers were not "all women" beside DG. Patrick Weekes, the new lead writer of the series, being the most prominent example here. What I can't understand is how you'd even think this - it takes literally no time to fact check this by looking at the DA:I writing credit.

 

Secondly, and more importantly, the plot didn't get cut because it was about "rape". It got cut because it wasn't intended to be perceived as a sexual assault, but the writers - when it was pointed out to them that the whole scene could be quite filled with squick - decided that it wasn't worth it. 

 

As to torture, well, Bioware's always been against letting the player torture. They've always featured torture. They just don't believe in enabling sadism. Which is notably something other games do as well, like TW2. There's a scene where a character outright laughs at the idea Geralt would torture anyone. 

 

Fair enough. I did say, "I think". I don't exactly keep up with everyone on the dev team. Apparently there are two male writers that I didn't know about. So only a majority of the writers are women.

 

I understand it wasn't about rape. I said it was interpreted as a form of rape. Apparently this is triggering, and Inquisition can't be triggering, regardless of whatever themes were in Origins. I had to look up what "squick" meant. I guess this is another way to say "gross" or "eww" like some women like to do. So, to recap, Inquisition had to remove something because some women, as pointed out by a female writer, might take it the wrong way, be triggered, and/or find it yucky. I can't say if the removal was an improvement or not, I'm just fascinated by the editorial process.

 

Good point honestly, though Gaider in particular seemed to have an extreme aversion to even the mention of torture. I'm not looking for a QTE for torture, but I did criticize how stupid it was in one of the trailers way back for a fully armored Leliana to be tortured and then easily overpower an armored guard with her legs. Somebody back then assured me that BioWare had said the scene wasn't 100% so as to avoid spoilers. What was in the actual game was even more laughable. A game with an M rating having a torture scene like a Saturday morning cartoon. I don't even want them to match TW2 or Kane and Lynch, but Origins. At least Origins had corpses, people on racks, and raspberry jam.

 

BioWare Austin, however, does allow you to torture. Not in an interactive way of course, but as choices. As an Inquisitor no less.

[devSin]

Transgressed, or transgender?

His auto-correct is legendary.

[AlanC9]

It's a sign that some are becoming willing to accept them, is my point.

Hmm.... so your problem is actually with reality, not the games. Is this a pure escapism play? Say, the way some RPG players don't want time pressure or hard decisions in their games?

[AlanC9]

I understand it wasn't about rape. I said it was interpreted as a form of rape. Apparently this is triggering, and Inquisition can't be triggering, regardless of whatever themes were in Origins. I had to look up what "squick" meant. I guess this is another way to say "gross" or "eww" like some women like to do. So, to recap, Inquisition had to remove something because some women, as pointed out by a female writer, might take it the wrong way, be triggered, and/or find it yucky. I can't say if the removal was an improvement or not, I'm just fascinated by the editorial process.

Triggering didn't come up anyplace. That's just you.

As for the rest, the problem was only that the "eww" was unintentional. The interesting thing is the writer having to be told that.