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[leaguer of one]

The fourth blight went on for twelve years and was felt in the Anderfells, Free Marches, Antiva, Nevarra, Orlais, Orzammar, Rivain and the Imperium. So many griffons perished in combat as to spell the extinction of their species. I would find it very odd if Flemeth and her daughters weren't at all aware of that particular situation. Perhaps she didn't put herself at the forefront, but that doesn't mean she didn't involve herself. There seems to be little in which Flemethyal doesn't involve herself.

 

And on your third point, Solas still might well have been unaware. Just because Flemeth is gunning for vengeance and Solas is doing something vaguely-People related, doesn't mean their priorities can't intersect. Maybe Flemeth has multiple goals, and revenge is just top priority. Maybe she needs Solas to accomplish his goal as to fulfill her own. We don't know these things, so stating our view of them so plainly is unwise. Because there is still a lot of room for change.

 

Flemeth isn't aware of everything. Thus it stands to reason, as the newer player on the field, odds are Solas isn't either. How long did it take Flemeth to find Kieran? Look at Solas's obvious blunder with Corypheus. And yet Solas should and must have know who and what was where at all times just thanks to his nature? XD

 

 

Your interpretation. She was also worshiped by them, presumably lived amongst them, had temples, etc. I prefer she treated everyone equally on the horrible scale. ;D If someone kills several humans (Quizzy does all the time), doesn't mean they hate every human in existence.

 

On Sera... (devil's advocate warning) in theory, were Sera a host like Flemeth, or even an amnesiac vessel, she could avoid things that deliberately trigger Andruil to stir because such thoughts/feeling/whatevers make her uncomfortable or frighten her. Thus she stays far away from the Dalish religion, sticks to cities, and chums up with humans. And hates all them elf-elfs!

I mean she was not involved with the old god of the 4th. of course she may of manipulated the people in it but not the old god. that is a fact.

 

And flemeth is aware of everything via the voices. She's been shown many times over to be able to see into the future. Every time she meets a main character she give cryptic hints to future events. And Solas saw her die...he know what she wants.

[Lethaya]

Even still, just because she didn't capture that soul doesn't mean she didn't know how to do it, necessarily, though. Maybe she couldn't find the right pawns. Maybe someone turned down the Ritual (as the Warden can easily do, rendering Urthemiel lost despite her knowledge). Maybe whichever daughter she sent forth do manipulate decided she didn't care for being a pawn. Records are vague. I'm not going to be guessing at what Mythal has or hasn't known. Like I said before, enigma. XD

 

Not everything. More than normal (far more than normal), yes. But again, she couldn't track down Keiran before someone involved with him went to her temple and drank from the well, not to mention jumped back home via her eluvian. She has had her griomoire stolen in the past. She could be betrayed and killed (again) in DA:O, and was betrayed and murdered in her time as a goddess. She is not infallible. Close to it, but not quite there yet.

 

Solas is more than capable of making mistakes, and learns several lessons throughout Inquisition. He is no where near her level of know how and ability judging from his history and actions (that we've seen). Yet you assume he knew all? XD

[Ariella]

1.yes it is proof. it's proof of a connection. that's the big deal. think about it. Flemeth /Mythal was not around for the 2nd and 3rd blight. myhtal was too weak and Flemeth was only born after the 3rd blight. She was not involve in the 4th blight and we have the records to prove it. Yet in the she knows can manipulate an old god of the 5th into the body of a child? why would she know that and were did she learn it from? The manipulation is proof enough of a connection and the fact she could not know how to do that before the blights started.

Saying it's not proof does not mean it not proof.

 

2. Dear lord ..you don't get it. Solas statement is that there is no lore connecting them. That the truth, their is no lore connecting them. but them we have mythal manipulating an old god...it may not be written in the lore their is a connection but we can see as clear as day that there is. that the only way for mythal to control an old god.

 

3.Because he would of killed Mythal if he went to her. Mythal is a last resort. Mythals goal is revenge not unsealing the fade. 

 

How is it proof of a connection. There are a NUMBER of reasons why she would have taken the soul. Just because she arranged to have it done doesn't mean she's on Old God. Flemeth/Mythal is centuries old. The idea that she had to have that ritual just because she was an Old God is ridiculous. All we know is she took the soul. Why she took it or what she planned to do with it is unknown.

 

Yes, we have Mythal manipulating an Old God, but that doesn't make her one. His statement is that there's nothing that connects the old gods and the elves. Not one person (Flemeth/Mythal) but the elves as a people. What Flemeth is doing is recent. If the Elven Gods were also the Old Gods, then one would think there would be something about it mentioned somewhere. The ONLY connection between the old gods and the elven gods I've been able to find was the comment about Dumat supplanting Mythal, but it's also commented that there is nothing to indicate this is more than speculation.

 

Mythal was a last resort? Where do you get THAT? He neither says nor implies anything of that nature. As for unsealing the Fade? What?

When Solas goes to Mythal, he apologizes for his mistake and says he should be punished, but the People still need him. This implies that he's working toward helping the elves despite being ambivalent toward them during the game. And yes, I'm well aware of what was data mined. However, we've had no dev actually dome out and say that it is true, and there's been nothing to support it in game. I've seen data mined content be wrong before in several games. GW 2 with Marjory going evil in Live Season 1 comes to mind. So unless it comes in game ie a codex, is said by a character or the devs state it straight out, I'm going to take it with a LARGE grain of salt. 

 

Which takes me back to the whole Occam's Razor. Flemeth tells Morrigan in the Fade that her drive to preserve the OG soul and other magicks comes from the fact Flemeth raised her that way. It's possible. Even probable that Flemeth/Mythal is preserving these things because they need to be preserved, not because she happens to be an old god herself. 

[leaguer of one]

Even still, just because she didn't capture that soul doesn't mean she didn't know how to do it, necessarily, though. Maybe she couldn't find the right pawns. Maybe someone turned down the Ritual (as the Warden can easily do, rendering Urthemiel lost despite her knowledge). Maybe whichever daughter she sent forth do manipulate decided she didn't care for being a pawn. Records are vague. I'm not going to be guessing at what Mythal has or hasn't known. Like I said before, enigma. XD

 

Not everything. More than normal (far more than normal), yes. But again, she couldn't track down Keiran before someone involved with him went to her temple and drank from the well, not to mention jumped back home via her eluvian. She has had her griomoire stolen in the past. She could be betrayed and killed (again) in DA:O, and was betrayed and murdered in her time as a goddess. She is not infallible. Close to it, but not quite there yet.

 

Solas is more than capable of making mistakes, and learns several lessons throughout Inquisition. He is no where near her level of know how and ability judging from his history and actions (that we've seen). Yet you assume he knew all? XD

1. I did not say she did not know how to do it then. that was not my point. My point is she could not of learned how to do it from the last 4 blights thus she had to know how to do so before the blights stated. And being that Mythal is older then the blights, that would mean the info to manipulate the old god could only come from Mythal.

 

2.With the Grimoire, it can easily be said she let that happen. And she saw here death coming from the warden based on what Happen to her in da2. The only thing that show she did not see was her betral and the location of Keran...but that can just be lampshaded that the only fates she can't see are the elven gods.

 

3.He's capable of mistake but he's fantastic and reading people. added he is cautious.

[leaguer of one]

How is it proof of a connection. There are a NUMBER of reasons why she would have taken the soul. Just because she arranged to have it done doesn't mean she's on Old God. Flemeth/Mythal is centuries old. The idea that she had to have that ritual just because she was an Old God is ridiculous. All we know is she took the soul. Why she took it or what she planned to do with it.

 

 

No there isn't . As I pointed out, she had no way of interacting with the old god of blights 2-4. So she can't of learned how to do it from the bast blights. The magisters did not know how to do it and no human did. The elves were equally clueless as well as the Avvar and dwarves. That only leaves older information. And note Mythal is the carrier of older information. 

 

Yes, we have Mythal manipulating an Old God, but that doesn't make her one. His statement is that there's nothing that connects the old gods and the elves. Not one person (Flemeth/Mythal) but the elves as a people. What Flemeth is doing is recent. If the Elven Gods were also the Old Gods, then one would think there would be something about it mentioned somewhere. The ONLY connection between the old gods and the elven gods I've been able to find was the comment about Dumat supplanting Mythal, but it's also commented that there is nothing to indicate this is more than speculation.

 

 

Wrong. Just because something exsists now does not mean it was always called the same thing. Azul and Blue are two different word but the mean the same thing. What teventor called the old god was names something else by the elves.

 

 

 

Mythal was a last resort? Where do you get THAT? He neither says nor implies anything of that nature. As for unsealing the Fade? What?

When Solas goes to Mythal, he apologizes for his mistake and says he should be punished, but the People still need him. This implies that he's working toward helping the elves despite being ambivalent toward them during the game. And yes, I'm well aware of what was data mined. However, we've had no dev actually dome out and say that it is true, and there's been nothing to support it in game. I've seen data mined content be wrong before in several games. GW 2 with Marjory going evil in Live Season 1 comes to mind. So unless it comes in game ie a codex, is said by a character or the devs state it straight out, I'm going to take it with a LARGE grain of salt. 

 

 

 

1. The entire ending shows she is the last resort. He when to a darkspawn magister ans newly appointed inquisitor before going to her and that was only because the foci he had was distoried. And Solas tell this that he want to unseal the fade indirectly... Once when he tells us what the world was like with the elves of old while in Heaven and next when you get him angry enough in skyhold.

2.The fact that to help the elves means he has to kill his friend means it's a last resort.

 

 

Which takes me back to the whole Occam's Razor. Flemeth tells Morrigan in the Fade that her drive to preserve the OG soul and other magicks comes from the fact Flemeth raised her that way. It's possible. Even probable that Flemeth/Mythal is preserving these things because they need to be preserved, not because she happens to be an old god herself. 

Even if that is the case that still means there is a connection...Which is my point.

[Ariella]

1. I did not say she did not know how to do it then. that was not my point. My point is she could not of learned how to do it from the last 4 blights thus she had to know how to do so before the blights stated. And being that Mythal is older then the blights, that would mean the info to manipulate the old god could only come from Mythal.

 

2.With the Grimoire, it can easily be said she let that happen. And she saw here death coming from the warden based on what Happen to her in da2. The only thing that show she did not see was her betral and the location of Keran...but that can just be lampshaded that the only fates she can't see are the elven gods.

 

3.He's capable of mistake but he's fantastic and reading people. added he is cautious.

 

1) She could have come up with, or learned the ritual at any given point. And considering the fact she didn't NEED it until the Blights started, tells me that it's a recent development since one doesn't need to preserve the soul of a old god from an archdemon unless there's an archdemon.

 

2) She knew she MIGHT die. She pretty much says that her little bit of soul was an insurance policy (If I know my Morrigan), since the Warden can choose not to kill her. She also heavily implies she knows this because she knows Morrigan's character, not out of some foresight. And where do you get that she can't see the fates of the elven gods? The more likely explanation for why she couldn't see Kieran was the fact that Morrigan had him squirreled away "inbetween" for most of his life, and she only got back recently. Flemeth probably would have found him sooner or later anyway, just drinking from the Well made it easier. 

[leaguer of one]

1) She could have come up with, or learned the ritual at any given point. And considering the fact she didn't NEED it until the Blights started, tells me that it's a recent development since one doesn't need to preserve the soul of a old god from an archdemon unless there's an archdemon.

 

2) She knew she MIGHT die. She pretty much says that her little bit of soul was an insurance policy (If I know my Morrigan), since the Warden can choose not to kill her. She also heavily implies she knows this because she knows Morrigan's character, not out of some foresight. And where do you get that she can't see the fates of the elven gods? The more likely explanation for why she couldn't see Kieran was the fact that Morrigan had him squirreled away "inbetween" for most of his life, and she only got back recently. Flemeth probably would have found him sooner or later anyway, just drinking from the Well made it easier. 

1. from were...thats the point I'm making. Flemeth was only around during the 4th blight and never met  old god of that time. So she can fastion a rutiaul at that time. and no one else in thedus know how to do the ritual. it made a point that many way to stopped the blight failed. so no one has this info. Sorry, but their is no way she could learn the ritual during the age of man.

 

2.the fact she can predict it as well as many many thing show she can see the future. it may not be 100% perfect but she can see the future and the fates of beings. it only show that exception for god like beings. kieran and who ever murdered her are the exceptions.

[Ariella]

1. from were...thats the point I'm making. Flemeth was only around during the 4th blight and never met  old god of that time. So she can fastion a rutiaul at that time. and no one else in thedus know how to do the ritual. it made a point that many way to stopped the blight failed. so no one has this info. Sorry, but their is no way she could learn the ritual during the age of man.

 

2.the fact she can predict it as well as many many thing show she can see the future. it may not be 100% perfect but she can see the future and the fates of beings. it only show that exception for god like beings. kieran and who ever murdered her are the exceptions.

 

Unless she came up with the ritual on her own based on the knowledge she has. None of which makes her an old god.

 

Kieran is not a god. He carries the soul of one, but considering the fact the soul can be removed without KILLING him... I'd say he ain't an Old God. Unless you're saying he has no soul now if you took the DR path. We don't know much about her murder except that she was. We don't know who or what. And it's not like there's no precedent in Dragon Age for mortals killing gods *cough* archdemon *cough*

 

Solas wanted to unlock the Orb. Corypheus was the best he could find, you said, iirc, that he didn't go to Mythal first because he'd have killed her, but if he had the Orb, he wouldn't have had to, thus she was not a last resort when talking about unlocking the blasted Orb. She was a last resort after the Orb was destroyed but that's a different story. Most likely he didn't know she was out there still or maybe it has something to do with that appointment Flemeth had to keep in Da2.

[leaguer of one]

Unless she came up with the ritual on her own based on the knowledge she has. None of which makes her an old god.

 

Kieran is not a god. He carries the soul of one, but considering the fact the soul can be removed without KILLING him... I'd say he ain't an Old God. Unless you're saying he has no soul now if you took the DR path. We don't know much about her murder except that she was. We don't know who or what. And it's not like there's no precedent in Dragon Age for mortals killing gods *cough* archdemon *cough*

 

Solas wanted to unlock the Orb. Corypheus was the best he could find, you said, iirc, that he didn't go to Mythal first because he'd have killed her, but if he had the Orb, he wouldn't have had to, thus she was not a last resort when talking about unlocking the blasted Orb. She was a last resort after the Orb was destroyed but that's a different story. Most likely he didn't know she was out there still or maybe it has something to do with that appointment Flemeth had to keep in Da2.

1. she did came up with the ritual on her own based on the knowledge she had. and she got it from Mythal.

 

2.Actually, he is. the elven gods were stated to be powerful mages bounded to spirits. So yes he is what the elven gods were.

 

3. Your looking at the wrong end. The orb was a means to an end. With the orb gone he can't get to that end. That's why mythal is his last resort. Because he has no other why to get to his end with out using her power. and the fact he was able to find her so easilly after the ending means he still knew she was around. Added, Morrigan and the quis never tells anyone else who Mythal is now.

[Heimdall]

1. she did came up with the ritual on her own based on the knowledge she had. and she got it from Mythal.

Which does not make her an Old God. Just knowledgable and powerful.
 

2.Actually, he is. the elven gods were stated to be powerful mages bounded to spirits. So yes he is what the elven gods were.

Solas says that that's what the Elven Gods MIGHT be, or just powerful mages. While he would know, he certainly doesn't state it with certainty and may not be telling the truth.

[TexasToast712]

Making stupid decisions seems to be a prerequisite for elven godhood.

Touché

[Ariella]

1. she did came up with the ritual on her own based on the knowledge she had. and she got it from Mythal.

 

2.Actually, he is. the elven gods were stated to be powerful mages bounded to spirits. So yes he is what the elven gods were.

 

3. Your looking at the wrong end. The orb was a means to an end. With the orb gone he can't get to that end. That's why mythal is his last resort. Because he has no other why to get to his end with out using her power. and the fact he was able to find her so easilly after the ending means he still knew she was around. Added, Morrigan and the quis never tells anyone else who Mythal is now.

 

Yes, but that doesn't MEAN she (Mythal) is an Old God. It just means she has knowledge. 

 

Please state where it says the Elven Gods are spirits bound to powerful mages? They ONLY instance I've heard of that is in the Avvar lore, and even then the Avvar augars aren't gods, just vessels for them, much like the Dragon in JoH. Solas does say something along the lines of that the elven gods might have been mages or spirits or something else all together. Again that does not make Kieran a god. 

 

First, we don't know if he found her "easily". All we see is him approaching her and the eluvian. We don't know where exactly they are or how long it is after things happened. And yes, the Inquisitor CAN tell at least one person about Flemeth. Romance scene in the chapel with Cullen if you do it post meeting, you can say: I met a god. So, I'm not sure it's as big a secret as you think it is.

 

Yes, he needs the Orb or its power, but you claimed he didn't go to Mythal to unlock the Orb because he would have killed her. If the Orb is unlocked, he has the power he needs, though I think it's much more than that because it required power to open it, but that's a guess. He either didn't know where Mythal was, or he didn't realize a part of her was still around. Which seems to pan out after the Temple where he says something to the effect of: so a piece of Mythal lives on.

 

And none of this connects the Elven Gods to the Old Gods. It makes more sense to believe that the Old Gods were somehow connected to the dwarves. The Claw of Dumat statue in the Fade is similar to the ones in the Primeval Thaig. Now that may be the Gods of Art reuse instead but considering the flack they get, it's possible it's not. But there's more evidence for that connection than the elves.

[leaguer of one]

Yes, but that doesn't MEAN she (Mythal) is an Old God. It just means she has knowledge. 

 

Please state where it says the Elven Gods are spirits bound to powerful mages? They ONLY instance I've heard of that is in the Avvar lore, and even then the Avvar augars aren't gods, just vessels for them, much like the Dragon in JoH. Solas does say something along the lines of that the elven gods might have been mages or spirits or something else all together. Again that does not make Kieran a god. 

 

First, we don't know if he found her "easily". All we see is him approaching her and the eluvian. We don't know where exactly they are or how long it is after things happened. And yes, the Inquisitor CAN tell at least one person about Flemeth. Romance scene in the chapel with Cullen if you do it post meeting, you can say: I met a god. So, I'm not sure it's as big a secret as you think it is.

 

Yes, he needs the Orb or its power, but you claimed he didn't go to Mythal to unlock the Orb because he would have killed her. If the Orb is unlocked, he has the power he needs, though I think it's much more than that because it required power to open it, but that's a guess. He either didn't know where Mythal was, or he didn't realize a part of her was still around. Which seems to pan out after the Temple where he says something to the effect of: so a piece of Mythal lives on.

 

And none of this connects the Elven Gods to the Old Gods. It makes more sense to believe that the Old Gods were somehow connected to the dwarves. The Claw of Dumat statue in the Fade is similar to the ones in the Primeval Thaig. Now that may be the Gods of Art reuse instead but considering the flack they get, it's possible it's not. But there's more evidence for that connection than the elves.

1. even if she's not.(which is still beleive she is) this still is a connection of the elven gods and the old god. Which makes Solas' point mute. even if there is no lore stating a connection with the way Flemeth can control an old god it show there is a connection.

 

2. Bring Solas to the arbor wild and talk to Flemeth in the fade. Play jaws of Hakkon to the end .Also, Look a Finryeil in Da2.

 

3.Yes we do. It was a summon. How would the dread wold not know how to summon mythal?

 

4.yes it does. The fact an elvn god can control and manipulate an old god means there is a connection. she had no way of learning how after the blights started and could only learn how during the age of the elven gods.

[Lethaya]

1. Nah, it doesn't. His point is there is no lore that states there is a connection. That's it. Mythal knowing how to do something isn't Thedas-world-lore. XD Thus, his point holds.

 

2. I've done most of that (no JoH yet, sigh!), still don't think that's what the Elvhen gods are. Just because you believe something doesn't make it truth.

 

3. So you think... so no, "we" know nothing. Personally? I think they may have easily met up as according to planning between the two of them, not because he summoned her. An eluvian is right there, after all. Point is, there is no definite way you can know that. And we still don't know where they were or when that scene occurs.

 

4. I daresay Mythal could manipulate just about anything she wanted to. Doesn't mean she is one, though. Mages manipulate demons and spirits all the time - doesn't mean that's what they are.

 

Yes, he needs the Orb or its power, but you claimed he didn't go to Mythal to unlock the Orb because he would have killed her. If the Orb is unlocked, he has the power he needs, though I think it's much more than that because it required power to open it, but that's a guess. He either didn't know where Mythal was, or he didn't realize a part of her was still around. Which seems to pan out after the Temple where he says something to the effect of: so a piece of Mythal lives on.

 

Yep. Even if he did know about Mythal, she may have also been too weak to aid him. She is, after all, only a fragment of what she once was, what Mythal was. *shrugs*

[Heimdall]

4.yes it does. The fact an elvn god can control and manipulate an old god means there is a connection. she had no way of learning how after the blights started and could only learn how during the age of the elven gods.

The only thing it proves is that Mythal is an ancient being knowledgable of forgotten magic. It doesn't prove that Mythal needed special knowledge of the Old Gods to make it work.

[Ariella]

1. even if she's not.(which is still beleive she is) this still is a connection of the elven gods and the old god. Which makes Solas' point mute. even if there is no lore stating a connection with the way Flemeth can control an old god it show there is a connection.

 

2. Bring Solas to the arbor wild and talk to Flemeth in the fade. Play jaws of Hakkon to the end .Also, Look a Finryeil in Da2.

 

3.Yes we do. It was a summon. How would the dread wold not know how to summon mythal?

 

4.yes it does. The fact an elvn god can control and manipulate an old god means there is a connection. she had no way of learning how after the blights started and could only learn how during the age of the elven gods.

 

Okay, Flemeth isn't controlling an old god. She's preserved a soul of one. Controlling it, ie making the thing do what she wants is different. And just because she knows how to do this doesn't make her an old god. I know a lot about Roman Catholicism even something about their rituals. Doesn't make me a Roman Catholic priest.

 

I've taken Solas to the Arbor Wilds. And I've played JoH all the way through, and I'm well aware of Feynriel. I don't see where this has to do with anything with the old gods being connected to the elven ones. We're told... TOLD that the Tevinters learned a lot of their magic from what they could scavenge from the elves. 

 

A summons? If I remember correctly, and it may be dim since I'm ancient myself and can't remember a scene I saw only a month ago, we see Flemeth looking at an Eluvian and then Solas walks up. That's all. No indication she got summoned, no real indication where they are, but a good guess is the part of the Fade she called Kieran to. We know nothing else.

 

Flemeth/Mythal is a freaking deity! Do you really think she was unaware of who and what any contemporaries of hers were. The idea that she couldn't know much about the old gods, unless she was one is silly. She an old powerful being who existed at the same time. It'd be damn foolish not to gain as much knowledge of a potential adversary as possible. So I think it's pretty likely that Mythal was familiar with the old gods without being one of them. As I said the only connection I had found was the whole Silentir codex, though the Claw of Dumat codex makes an interesting point that Corypheus may have sacrificed a number of elves (because Dumat told him to) in order to enter the Fade the first time. If the codex is to be believed. I think this is a good indicator that the old gods aren't the elven ones. Okay sacrifice of sentient beings, yeah that's historical, but having a bunch of humans sacrifice your own people. Hell, even tell them to do so. Doesn't make sense to me. Again, it also doesn't make sense that if the Old Gods are the Elven Gods they would start convincing a bunch of unwashed HUMANS to worship them when the elves are still out there.

[leaguer of one]

Okay, Flemeth isn't controlling an old god. She's preserved a soul of one. Controlling it, ie making the thing do what she wants is different. And just because she knows how to do this doesn't make her an old god. I know a lot about Roman Catholicism even something about their rituals. Doesn't make me a Roman Catholic priest.

 

I've taken Solas to the Arbor Wilds. And I've played JoH all the way through, and I'm well aware of Feynriel. I don't see where this has to do with anything with the old gods being connected to the elven ones. We're told... TOLD that the Tevinters learned a lot of their magic from what they could scavenge from the elves. 

 

A summons? If I remember correctly, and it may be dim since I'm ancient myself and can't remember a scene I saw only a month ago, we see Flemeth looking at an Eluvian and then Solas walks up. That's all. No indication she got summoned, no real indication where they are, but a good guess is the part of the Fade she called Kieran to. We know nothing else.

 

Flemeth/Mythal is a freaking deity! Do you really think she was unaware of who and what any contemporaries of hers were. The idea that she couldn't know much about the old gods, unless she was one is silly. She an old powerful being who existed at the same time. It'd be damn foolish not to gain as much knowledge of a potential adversary as possible. So I think it's pretty likely that Mythal was familiar with the old gods without being one of them. As I said the only connection I had found was the whole Silentir codex, though the Claw of Dumat codex makes an interesting point that Corypheus may have sacrificed a number of elves (because Dumat told him to) in order to enter the Fade the first time. If the codex is to be believed. I think this is a good indicator that the old gods aren't the elven ones. Okay sacrifice of sentient beings, yeah that's historical, but having a bunch of humans sacrifice your own people. Hell, even tell them to do so. Doesn't make sense to me. Again, it also doesn't make sense that if the Old Gods are the Elven Gods they would start convincing a bunch of unwashed HUMANS to worship them when the elves are still out there.

1. yes, she is controlling the old god. She called it into the fade and then took it out of it's holder into herself. That's controlling.

2. We're told the the elven god are powerful mages, spirits or both by Solas. He state it as a speculation but knowing him it's a fact. Then we have Flemeth who is Mythal. And she has Mythal spirit binded to her and discribes it just like how Anders describes being bounded to Justice. Joh shows the god are spirits bounded to power living thing and it's not a coincidence the a shrine to the 6th old god is in the valley. and it makes no sense for a civilization older then teventer not to know about the old gods.

 

3.The warrior flemeth was at was dedicated to the dread wolf and mythal...also, Flemeth said she new Solas would find her...He would have to know she exsist to look for her.

 

4.Is she would no of know of the old gods unless she had a connection to them..That does not mean big one. but even then this is a being who can turn into a dragon. And joh we learn the the dragon god(they are the old gods) are just powerful being with spirits in them.....And flemeth is just that.

And the Silentir codex did not say Cory did that because Dumat told him to..It said Cory did that to try to get in contact with Dumat who went silent. And there were elven god who did demand sacrifices.

[Lethaya]

1. Nah, it's beckoning. Or convincing. Could it be forcing? Yes. It could also be those other things, though. We don't know, we weren't in Kieran's head when it happened.

 

2. Nooo, we're told: "I don't believe they were gods, no, but I believe that they existed! Something existed to start the legends! If not gods, then mages, or spirits, or something we've never seen." No both mentioned there. The options given are mages, spirits, or something unknown. Basically, limitless options, here. All we know is they were powerful. As for Flemeth and Mythal - true, they have a similar relationship to Janders. But why do you assume that means all the Elvhen Gods were such? Mythal is operating under special circumstances. She was murdered and took a human host to make Flemythal. What of when she was just Mythal, however?

 

3. Doesn't that imply he was seeking her, though? Not that he summoned her? So didn't you just go against the original statement you made, there? XD

 

4. And in DA:O Morrigan was able to turn into a wolf. Didn't make her one, though. Heck, the Warden could learn to shapeshift, no? It's also a skill known by some Dalish Keepers, if I recall rightly.

 

As for Cory being told, I'll pull this up again: post.

[midnight tea]

Boy, this is such a bizarre thread.... reasonable speculations and crackpot theories going toe-to-toe. Logic and madness, tied together in eternal battle, fighting for dominance - who shall win!? *cue dramatic music*

 

Anyway... back to Sera! (somewhat)

 

How can we firmly stand on the principal of truth of anything on a cannon that can be changed by the stroke of Bioware's pen?

 

While many details are prone to change, I think it's been confirmed by at least a few Bioware writers that they already know where this ship is sailing. I myself read that in an interview with Gaider, who reveals that most things - at least when it comes to major events and plot twists - have been planned since DAO.

 

And it's only logical. With a story this big (and containing many variables!), it would be madness to leave everything to chance or whim of either writers or fans.

 

 

They certainly went to extremes to dangle IDEAS.

 

And many fans, including myself, went...oh...shiny (no Sera reference intended (um this statement gives away too much geekdom)).

 

Old god vs Elvan gods...Bioware led us to connect the dots.  Is it true?  Who knows what they are writing as of this second.  All things considered though, the thought is dangled before us.  

 

Well, if I learned anything from Bioware is that they like to subvert expectations and introduce red herrings.

It's cool, because for those who don't take the story at face-value it keeps things fresh and intriguing (and introduces a game of who's smarter: writers or the audience?), but it also introduces the danger of... well... what we sometimes see here: sprawling theories held together by a piece of string and used chewing gum.

 

Connecting the dots is all fine and cool, but it doesn't mean that it can be done indiscriminately. 

 

 

Solas is not happy about the idea of the old gods being slain.  The reasons could go on for pages.  In reality, Bioware put a great deal into DA:I for fans to go, huh(?) so are Elvan gods and old gods the same.

 

Conclusive pruff.  No implied repeatedly.  Yep.

 

Um, no, it's not implied repeatedly. At best we can establish that there's SOME sort of connection, but we cannot say for sure what exactly that connection is... Were Old Gods elven gods once? Were they Forbidden Ones? Are they just elven gods' pet dragons? Or are they something older, that regained its voice after the fall of elven gods? Maybe they're just similar? Or maybe they imitate them, just like Corypheus tried to imitate Old Gods?

 

There are too many questions that yet remain unanswered.

 

 

Is Sera an old God?  Proof? No.  Implied...well it's definitely implied there's some strange stuff going on with her and the Fade, she definitely has a connection well beyond any regular city elf...that is spelled out...repeatedly, and all over the place, especially with party banter with Cole and Solas.  Bioware writers wrote that specific dialogue, it's not like the actors were improving it.  If we are fans and into the lore, the more they subtly shove it in your face, the more you are asked to think about it, or you can ignore the puzzle and wait for the next game.

 

The only thing I see implied is that Sera is special, because elves are special... And I'm pretty sure it's obvious for most people now, seeing how much of the story revolves around glorious elven past, as well as the Fade to which elves have special connection to.  

 

So, Sera is unique only in a sense that she's been raised predominantly around humans - therefore many things she thinks are weird (like, say, deja-vu) are weird for her, because she either doesn't know that it's an 'elfy thing' or nobody taught her how to react to those. It's pretty apparent in this banter (direct quote):

 

Sera: (shivers) Weird.

Solas: Sera? What are you feeling?

Sera: Ugh, here we go. It’s nothing, it just feels like I've seen this. Exactly this. It happens.

Solas: Not to everyone.

 

(If Inquisitor is an elf)

Sera: It’s not an elf thing. Inquisitor's not shaking.

 

(Otherwise)

Sera: It’s not an elf thing. You’re not shaking.

 

Neither Solas, nor elf Inquistor make a big deal out of it, because - in all likelihood - for them this is a thing they're familiar with and one they either know how to cope with or ignore, since they've been raised in a community to which it was also a familiar thing. So, for any other elf is likely just a part of life - and since they usually stick to their own, most may not even be aware that something they do is unique to themselves or worth mentioning. They live in their own, 'elfy bubble', so to speak.

It's like... it would be weird for an elf or human raised around dwarves to say that they have dreams since dwarves have no idea how is it to dream - yet among elves and humans dreaming is just part of life, therefore they don't go around being all "Uh, WEIRD!" every time it happens to them.

 

Also - it's a bold statement to claim that Sera has stronger connection than any other city elf, considering that there's no other city elf we spend equal time around.

There's also a tidbit in DAI that flies in the face of such assessment - easily missed, but already caught by fans, namely: after events in Temple of Mythal, if you go to Val Royeaux, you can find an elven servant there, talking about a woman calling herself Mythal in his dreams, which makes him wake up screaming every night.

 

And that's just a random city elf we know nothing about.

 

Like I said - it's more reasonable to asses that Bioware writers made Sera "special" only in a sense, that through her they've shown that elves are indeed special - even those who fervently deny any connection with their heritage, which only makes elven gifts or uniqueness of them stick out even more than they usually do.

If you look at it that way, it's actually pretty goddamn ingenious. There's no need to make it a giant (and totally unnecessary) plot twist to be meaningful to the story.

 

 

 

People throughout the game ask you what's going to happen to the Inquisition after this is over.  Why?  Because it's a big deal in Thedas.  It's suppose to make you think.  Extrapolate from the data and make you think beyond the established guideline.  Hell, you can still play after Corypheus is dead.

 

What's in the cannon?  Nothing.  BioWare lets you use your mind and think.

 

 

That's a wrong way to look at things. Dragon Age is an interactive story - that is, a story in which we can decide some elements of it.

It's however, not a story that depends ENTIRELY on ourselves or our decisions. Therefore there are parts of it on which BW has no official canon on, and on some parts they do.

 

Therefore WHO Inquisitor is (gender, background, love life, attitude, competence, etc) is canon only to ourselves - same with decisions like, say, who becomes Divine or who stays in the Fade after Adamant. But the fact that there's Inquisitor and Inquisition, that Flemeth is Mythal or Solas is Fen'Harel - yes, that's official canon, and it's definitely not nothing.

 

 

It's conjecture, speculation, and flat out guessing.  Even if you laut or poo-poo an idea, don't you want to be right when the next expansion comes out?  Well, I guess I'd like to be right, but I'd like a nice Aristotelean reversal where we all sit and stare at the thing and go...why didn't I see that coming?  You know, like Revan in KOTOR.

 

 

.... Why bring Revan in KOTOR, when Solas revealed to be Dread Wolf exploded quite a few heads? But how many things pointed towards such reveal? A ton, in retrospect. 

(even I - a complete newbie to Dragonage back when I began DAI was like "Hmmm... wolves, wolves, wolves... why is this game throwing so many WOLVES at me? They're EVERYWHERE! ....Important, huh? Wait, why is Solas wearing this ugly piece of blackened bone around his neck? Sticks out like sore thumb on his nerdy, beige sweater... wait, is that a WOLF jawbone?")

 

Not that many things point towards Sera being Andruil though, as it was already pointed out.

 

In fact - we have more pointers suggesting that the Inquisitor might be more special (even if unaware of it) than a random Joe who stumbled upon a special magic ritual... yet I don't see many people wonder about that?

 

[Ariella]

1. yes, she is controlling the old god. She called it into the fade and then took it out of it's holder into herself. That's controlling.

2. We're told the the elven god are powerful mages, spirits or both by Solas. He state it as a speculation but knowing him it's a fact. Then we have Flemeth who is Mythal. And she has Mythal spirit binded to her and discribes it just like how Anders describes being bounded to Justice. Joh shows the god are spirits bounded to power living thing and it's not a coincidence the a shrine to the 6th old god is in the valley. and it makes no sense for a civilization older then teventer not to know about the old gods.

 

3.The warrior flemeth was at was dedicated to the dread wolf and mythal...also, Flemeth said she new Solas would find her...He would have to know she exsist to look for her.

 

4.Is she would no of know of the old gods unless she had a connection to them..That does not mean big one. but even then this is a being who can turn into a dragon. And joh we learn the the dragon god(they are the old gods) are just powerful being with spirits in them.....And flemeth is just that.

And the Silentir codex did not say Cory did that because Dumat told him to..It said Cory did that to try to get in contact with Dumat who went silent. And there were elven god who did demand sacrifices.

 

The soul is passive, it's not DOING anything one way or another. 

 

He says mages, spirits or something we haven't seen yet. He does not say that spirits were bound into mages. And Lethaya makes the case for this point quite well, so I'm just going to leave it.

 

Say huh? Decoding this is making my head hurt.

 

Again, The Old Gods were contemporaries of the Elven Gods, not a big stretch to think they might know a little about one another. 

 

And I said the only connection I found between the Elven Gods and the Old Gods was the Silentir constellation codex, where it mentions that some scholars speculate that the symbolism indicates Dumat supplanting Mythal. The Claw of Dumat note is the one that talks about Dumat telling Corypheus to sacrifice elves.

This is the exact text of the note from the Fade at Adamant: 
 

Master unveiled a new altar. It stands higher than a man, like a great statue, and great spikes jut out from its length, hungry for blood. Master calls it "the Claw ofDumat" and says that the altar will help bring Tevinter to glory. I praised it, as was expected, and Master smiled. It was good to see him smile again. He has been fearful of late, vexed by the loss of followers. He has met with the other priests, and in secret, I have heard them discussing ways to return the people of Tevinter to the ways of the Old Gods, as is only just.

He spoke to me later in the day, and asked that I call him Corypheus, as it was the name he would take for himself after a ritual. Master - now Corypheus - told me that my people, the elves of old, were tied to the Fade, and that in order to carry out the will of Dumat, he would need to call upon the magic that lives in our blood.

Corypheus told me to gather all of the elven servants and bring them to the western hall of our home at midnight. That is the hall where the Claw of Dumat is now kept. There are shackles across the top of the great altar, and pools lined with runes beneath the claws.

I have sent my wife and children away, but have not warned the others. A few I may save. If I tried to save us all, we would only be killed in some other way, and others would die in our place.

Master once laughed and joked. He could be stern, but he was not a cruel man. The weakening of the temples brought fear into his heart, and that fear has changed him. The cuts upon his arms are deeper and longer where he used his blood magic more often. He speaks to his wife little. He listens only to the voices in his dreams.

It is almost midnight. The Claw of Dumat, great and spiked and merciless, is all my mind can see. I must gather the others. My family is safe. Corypheus will take me, but not those I love.

- Words somehow preserved in blood at the statue's base

[midnight tea]

4.Is she would no of know of the old gods unless she had a connection to them..That does not mean big one. but even then this is a being who can turn into a dragon. And joh we learn the the dragon god(they are the old gods) are just powerful being with spirits in them.....And flemeth is just that.

 

Morrigan also turns into a dragon if we let her drink from the Well. It only shows that it requires special knowledge to do so, even if we assume that Morrigan is special herself in some way.

[midnight tea]

And I said the only connection I found between the Elven Gods and the Old Gods was the Silentir constellation codex, where it mentions that some scholars speculate that the symbolism indicates Dumat supplanting Mythal. The Claw of Dumat note is the one that talks about Dumat telling Corypheus to sacrifice elves.

 

Quite a few codexes on Astrariums suggest that constellations and their meaning have been supplanted by Tevinter. Here's one from astrarium near Coracavus: http://dragonage.wik...llation:_Fenrir

 

... Not sure it means anything more other than "Tevinter is a rip-off of Elvenhan" and if such assessment means anything (well, it could mean A LOT, but it doesn't have to).

[Ariella]

Quite a few codexes on Astrariums suggest that constellations and their meaning have been supplanted by Tevinter. Here's one from astrarium near Coracavus: http://dragonage.wik...llation:_Fenrir

 

Agreed, most of them are, and then supplanted by the Chantry in turn. But Silentir specifically mentioned Dumat supplanting Mythal. What the man is holding can be seen as a horn and a wand or a set of scales, and according to the Codex some scholars think that it indicates Dumat supplanting Mythal considering part of her persona was a deity of justice. The Codex goes on to say that there's no real proof only speculation.

http://dragonage.wik...ation:_Silentir

 

The only reason I mention it is that it's the only real piece of lore I've found mentioning the Old Gods and the Elven Gods in this kind of context IE Dumat's ascension at the expense of Mythal. It's not all that much and it's speculative as hell which tells me I have no freaking clue what it may mean, but it's a reference so I put it out there.

[midnight tea]

I mentioned this before and I know this is TOTALLY a far-fetched speculation, but I won't be surprised at all if we'll see Dumat again.

 

Him being a god of Silence is too much of a meaningful distinction, especially if we take into consideration that a lot of things about magic, Fade or life in Thedas itself is being constantly compared to or directly referred to as being a song. There has to be some sort of meaningful connection, although right now clues are so vague, it's hard to extrapolate anything, really.

[xPez]

 

4.Is she would no of know of the old gods unless she had a connection to them..That does not mean big one. but even then this is a being who can turn into a dragon. And joh we learn the the dragon god(they are the old gods) are just powerful being with spirits in them.....And flemeth is just that.

And the Silentir codex did not say Cory did that because Dumat told him to..It said Cory did that to try to get in contact with Dumat who went silent. And there were elven god who did demand sacrifices.

 

Jaws of Hakkon spoilers below

 

 

 

 

Sorry, I had to point this out in case other posters hadn't yet played JoH. The sentence I've put in bold you've kind of stretched the truth slightly there, or just taken something that is hinted at and decided that it is absolute fact (something which has happened a lot in this thread  ). Although maybe I've misunderstood what you have written.

 

For anyone who hasn't played the Jaws of Hakkon DLC, the Avvar have a war god called Hakkon that they are trying to manifest in Thedas so it can lead them against the lowlanders. We find out that they somehow managed to capture a dragon and bind a powerful spirit to it, and that is their god.

 

The message behind that being that what the Avvar think are gods are actually just powerful spirits. They are not "dragon gods". They just happen to bind the spirit to a dragon because dragons are cool. IIRC the same spirit briefly gets binded to a man, and it could just have easily been a bear or a mongoose or a seagull.

 

There is nothing to confirm that the "god" in JoH is anything like the Old Gods. It is not related to the darkspawn in any way, and there is nothing like a song attached to it.

Once again, JoH does not confirm that the Old Gods are dragons with spirits bound to them.