402 réponses à ce sujet

[Ariella]

I mentioned this before and I know this is TOTALLY a far-fetched speculation, but I won't be surprised at all if we'll see Dumat again.

 

Him being a god of Silence is too much of a meaningful distinction, especially if we take into consideration that a lot of things about magic, Fade or life in Thedas itself is being constantly compared to or directly referred to as being a song. There has to be some sort of meaningful connection, although right now clues are so vague, it's hard to extrapolate anything, really.

 

That's interesting. I like it, but then it becomes a question of "what exactly did we kill"? IF the whole Grey Warden soul destruct thing is right, Dumat is gone. If not, it's an interesting question as to where he's been hiding.

[Ariella]

Thank you, XPez.

[midnight tea]

If anything, the Avvar leader from Stone Bear Hold says that binding Hakkon to dragon twisted their god, and made him vengeful and thinking only of attacking lowlanders. Therefore it can't be as simple as 'god is just a powerful being with spirit in them', if it runs a risk of twisting their nature as much....

[xPez]

If anything, the Avvar leader from Stone Bear Hold says that binding Hakkon to dragon twisted their god, and made him vengeful and thinking only of attacking lowlanders. Therefore it can't be as simple as 'god is just a powerful being with spirit in them', if it runs a risk of twisting their nature as much....

 

Exactly! I think there is something there about gods being spirits because there is a lot of evidence pointing to it with Mythal etc, as well as gods turning out to just be advanced/powerful beings is quite a common fantasy/sci-fi theme, but there isn't really anything that links the JoH dragon god to the Old Gods. Apart from being dragons obviously.

 

 

Another thing that I wanted to point out is that Flemythal can take the shape of a dragon, as can Morrigan (Morrigan is a shapeshifter mind). There's also a codex entry that has something about an elf being punished for daring to take the winged form that is reserved only for the gods, i.e. shapeshifting into a dragon. The Old Gods can't take the form of a human, and from what we saw neither can JoH dragon god.

[Reznore57]

Jaws of Hakkon spoilers :

 

Spoiler

What we lean with Jaws of Hakkon is Avaar worship spirits , they know it .

Hakkon , Father Mountain Something , the Lady of the Sky are all spirits.

What they do is they pray to one spirit , give offerings , and since the spirits mirror mortals wishes well they grew into what the Avaar want.

That's why they don't care if you kill their gods , they'll find another spirit or the wisp of the slained one , began praying again and rebuild their gods.

 

With Hakkon the main problem was putting a spirit in a dragon.I don't think it twisted the spirit exactly , the friendly Avaar chief tells you those spirits gods have no place in Thedas and they should stay in the fade.

Hakkon was a god of war , of course as a dragon he went rampaging.In the fade , he probably just helps Avaars on the battlefield. 

[midnight tea]

That's interesting. I like it, but then it becomes a question of "what exactly did we kill"? IF the whole Grey Warden soul destruct thing is right, Dumat is gone. If not, it's an interesting question as to where he's been hiding.

 

True... though existence of Corypheus seems to suggest that powerful, blighted beings are harder to kill than people thought. After all he can't be killed by Wardens - he has to be sealed away. He's unique in a sense that he's the magister who entered the Golden City, turned it black and released Blights and darkspawn on the world, but truth be told we know even less of Old Gods and what they can do.

 

Also - if Flemeth could have roamed the world for many centuries and do so unnoticed (and so does Fen'Harel and Uthremiel... to a degree), it's possible other wisps of powerful beings can too.

[Ariella]

True... though existence of Corypheus seems to suggest that powerful, blighted beings are harder to kill than people thought. After all he can't be killed by Wardens - he has to be sealed away. He's unique in a sense that he's the magister who entered the Golden City, turned it black and released Blights and darkspawn on the world, but truth be told we know even less of Old Gods and what they can do.
 
Also - if Flemeth could have roamed the world for many centuries and do so unnoticed (and so does Fen'Harel and Uthremiel... to a degree), it's possible other wisps of powerful beings can too.

True on Corypheus, but at the same time it might also be a case of how and where. And I've seen mention that the magisters embraced the taint willingly. This was in passing and I may be completely wrong but if it's the case then that might be the key to why Corypheus can and the archdemons can't.

But you are right. If it is the case I'd really like to know where he is and what he's been up to. Also would like to know where the Dread Wolf's been sleeping, and if Flemeth's mysterious appointment from DA 2 has anything to do with him waking up.

[leaguer of one]

Jaws of Hakkon spoilers below

 

 

 

 

Sorry, I had to point this out in case other posters hadn't yet played JoH. The sentence I've put in bold you've kind of stretched the truth slightly there, or just taken something that is hinted at and decided that it is absolute fact (something which has happened a lot in this thread  ). Although maybe I've misunderstood what you have written.

 

For anyone who hasn't played the Jaws of Hakkon DLC, the Avvar have a war god called Hakkon that they are trying to manifest in Thedas so it can lead them against the lowlanders. We find out that they somehow managed to capture a dragon and bind a powerful spirit to it, and that is their god.

 

The message behind that being that what the Avvar think are gods are actually just powerful spirits. They are not "dragon gods". They just happen to bind the spirit to a dragon because dragons are cool. IIRC the same spirit briefly gets binded to a man, and it could just have easily been a bear or a mongoose or a seagull.

 

There is nothing to confirm that the "god" in JoH is anything like the Old Gods. It is not related to the darkspawn in any way, and there is nothing like a song attached to it.

Once again, JoH does not confirm that the Old Gods are dragons with spirits bound to them.

that's not the case. It's not binded because "dragons are cool". Note that there is a shrine to the 6th old god in the valley...Which the hakkonites flock to. And lore there stated that the tevinter worshiper out of desperation when the old gods went Silent went to the Avvar to see who they were worshiping. Add not how the soul of the 5th old god is moved into a child in the 5th blight and easily taken out in dai. It's not dragon because dragons are cool. The point is a god is just a powerful being enhanced by a spirit.

[leaguer of one]

If anything, the Avvar leader from Stone Bear Hold says that binding Hakkon to dragon twisted their god, and made him vengeful and thinking only of attacking lowlanders. Therefore it can't be as simple as 'god is just a powerful being with spirit in them', if it runs a risk of twisting their nature as much....

Except they still call them a god in that state. They don't need to be stable to be gods.

[midnight tea]

that's not the case. It's not binded because "dragons are cool". Note that there is a shrine to the 6th old god in the valley...Which the hakkonites flock to. And lore there stated that the tevinter worshiper out of desperation when the old gods went Silent went to the Avvar to see who they were worshiping. Add not how the soul of the 5th old god is moved into a child in the 5th blight and easily taken out in dai. It's not dragon because dragons are cool. The point is a god is just a powerful being enhanced by a spirit.

 

That doesn't make sense even if you take into consideration that it is heavily implied that every living creature (sentient creature at least) is, in its core - a spirit.

Why do you think Solas muses about Cole possibly becoming 'fully human' (if we make Cole more human)??? 

 

Why is he gushing at elf Inquisutor having "A rare, marvelous spirit?" or wondering "if the Dalish can raise a person with a spirit like yours, have I misjudged them?"

 

Or why is Cole sometimes calling Cassandra 'Faith'?

[midnight tea]

Except they still call them a god in that state. They don't need to be stable to be gods.

 

They also call regular spirits gods.

Also - you're missing the point.

[leaguer of one]

That doesn't make sense even if you take into consideration that it is heavily implied that every living creature (sentient creature at least) is, in its core - a spirit.

Why do you think Solas muses about Cole possibly becoming 'fully human' (if we make Cole more human)??? 

 

Why is he gushing at elf Inquisutor having "A rare, marvelous spirit?" or wondering "if the Dalish can raise a person with a spirit like yours, have I misjudged them?"

 

Or why is Cole sometimes calling Cassandra 'Faith'?

That more of a speculation.. Spirits has aways shown great capability to inmate beings of the world of thedus...they just don't get it mostly right. They lack the understand to do so. Just because Cole can do it does not mean life in thedus started out as spirits. it just show the with enough understand spirit can become human...the problem is they need the motivation and understand to do it.

[leaguer of one]

They also call regular spirits gods.

Also - you're missing the point.

Azul and blue are the same thing.

 

Note even the elve gods say the arn't really gods.

As Flemeth said in dao "Age ans power are a matter of perspective."

[midnight tea]

Azul and blue are the same thing.

 

Note even the elve gods say the arn't really gods.

As Flemeth said in dao "Age ans power are a matter of perspective."

 

But prussian blue and ultramarine are NOT. There's enough of distinction between shades of blue to give them distinct names and place on color palette. It's very possible that such distinction exist between beings like Elven Gods and Old Gods as well. You just choose to ignore them.

[midnight tea]

That more of a speculation.. Spirits has aways shown great capability to inmate beings of the world of thedus...they just don't get it mostly right. They lack the understand to do so. Just because Cole can do it does not mean life in thedus started out as spirits. it just show the with enough understand spirit can become human...the problem is they need the motivation and understand to do it.

 

 

You've gotta have a nerve to say that what I do is more of a speculation, compared to what you do *facepalm*

 

Also - you completely ignored what Solas said about Inquisitor or how Cole refers to Cassandra. How are you going to respond to that?

[midnight tea]

True on Corypheus, but at the same time it might also be a case of how and where. And I've seen mention that the magisters embraced the taint willingly. This was in passing and I may be completely wrong but if it's the case then that might be the key to why Corypheus can and the archdemons can't.

But you are right. If it is the case I'd really like to know where he is and what he's been up to. Also would like to know where the Dread Wolf's been sleeping, and if Flemeth's mysterious appointment from DA 2 has anything to do with him waking up.

 

That's true - if we pick templars and visit temple of Dumat to see what he's preparing for Calpernia, he mentions through... uh... his red lyrium journal? (lol) that they didn't create the darkness, they discovered and used it.

 

Though the reason they got there and discovered it in the first place was them being led to the Golden City by whispers of Old Gods.

 

I mean, it's reasonable to assume that it might have been the plan all along - trick magisters into pilgrimage to the Golden City to unwittingly release the Blight.

Some people may ask how is it that the plan apparently backfired (if it actually did)... but it's not the first time we see plans of divine beings backfire on them, ey? If anything, even if the plan was a gamble or had unforeseen consequences, it's possible that the end goal has been accomplished.

 

 

 

As for Dread Wolf - my bet would be that he might have been asleep wherever the last ancient elves are hiding.... And I have a feeling that it MIGHT be a place like Crossroads (Morrigan herself mentions that some eluvians lead to similar locations). I'm not adamant that that's the case though.

 

As for Flemeth's 'appointment'.... while I think it's possible that it's actually Mythal who woke him up, I don't think she revealed herself to him. He seemed too surprised with the fact that Temple of Mythal is still occupied by her servants, and there was either relief or astonishment in his voice when we enter the chamber with the Well Of Sorrows and mumbles "So Mythal endures...".

Sera also notes (in banter) that "he's all fluttery" after what happened in the Temple - it's anyone's guess as to why though.

[leaguer of one]

You've gotta have a nerve to say that what I do is more of a speculation, compared to what you do *facepalm*

 

Also - you completely ignored what Solas said about Inquisitor or how Cole refers to Cassandra. How are you going to respond to that?

Your reading too much into it.

With Cassy, remember Cole is mind reader and comforter. He's spirit of compassion. And spirit does not just have a physical meaning, it can mean ideal and drive.

[Lethaya]

Azul and blue are the same thing.

 

Note even the elve gods say the arn't really gods.

As Flemeth said in dao "Age ans power are a matter of perspective."

 

They're similar. But one is English, and one is Spanish, of course. So there's a difference. Blue also has multiple meanings - sure it can refer to the color, but it can also describe an emotion, no? ;D

 

The two Pantheons could be similar - but not the same.

 

That more of a speculation.. Spirits has aways shown great capabilty to imate beings of the world of thedus...they just don't get it mostly right. They lack understand to do so. just because Cole can do it does not mean life in thedus started out as spirits. it jus show the with enough understand spirit can become human...the problem is they need the motivation and understand to do it.

 

Wha? Look, this is all speculation! XD
 

And for kicks, if you want more potential hints (I personally believe the Elvhen were definitely, ah.... spirity?, hence their magic and immortality) consider what Kieran says to an elven Quizzy: "I just don't know why your people want to look like that." Plus all the lines about elven blood being different or more magical. And all the stuff about spirits being just like people.

 

Whose to say way past when, some spirits didn't find the motivation, eh?

 

Cherry picking these things is no fun.

 

 

I mean, it's reasonable to assume that it might have been the plan all along - trick magisters into pilgrimage to the Golden City to unwittingly release the Blight. Some people may ask how is it that the plan apparently backfired (if it actually did)... but it's not the first time we see plans of divine beings backfire on them, ey? If anything, even if the plan was a gamble or had unforeseen consequences, it's possible that the end goal has been accomplished.

 

Editing this in here, but on this, even more interesting when you consider... hmmm, paraphrase time. I believe it was in WoTv2? Urthemiel promised his High Priest designs that would allow for a new golden age or something. Lemme see if I can track down the source of that actually. xD But if that is accurate, could have some interesting implications for how they considered the Blight!

[midnight tea]

Your reading too much into it.

With Cassy, remember Cole is mind reader and comforter. He's spirit of compassion. And spirit does not just have a physical meaning, it can mean ideal and drive.

 

 

Your complete lack of self-awareness is astounding!

 

Or do you just choose to ignore as well that what you're doing is pure hypocrisy?

[Lethaya]

It is pushing the envelope just a bit at this point. XD

[midnight tea]

It is pushing the envelope just a bit at this point. XD

 

Isn't it  ?

 

By the way, do you happen to have a salve for palm-shaped bruises? I've got a huge one on my face right now.

[leaguer of one]

 

They're similar. But one is English, and one is Spanish, of course. So there's a difference. Blue also has multiple meanings - sure it can refer to the color, but it can also describe an emotion, no? ;D

 

The two Pantheons could be similar - but not the same.

 

 

Wha? Look, this is all speculation! XD
 

And for kicks, if you want more potential hints (I personally believe the Elvhen were definitely, ah.... spirity?, hence their magic and immortality) consider what Kieran says to an elven Quizzy: "I just don't know why your people want to look like that." Plus all the lines about elven blood being different or more magical. And all the stuff about spirits being just like people.

 

Whose to say way past when, some spirits didn't find the motivation, eh?

 

Cherry picking these things is no fun.

 

 

 

Editing this in here, but on this, even more interesting when you consider... hmmm, paraphrase time. I believe it was in WoTv2? Urthemiel promised his High Priest designs that would allow for a new golden age or something. Lemme see if I can track down the source of that actually. xD But if that is accurate, could have some interesting implications for how they considered the Blight!

 

1.Then a naranja and an orange(fruit) are the same thing.

2.  We talking about being who came to exsistace when the fade was open up to thedus.

[Lethaya]

I'm sure I've got one around here somewhere, midnight, Maker knows I've had need of one often enough. XD

 

I do actually have that source I mentioned, though. A post here on the forums, so it could of course be inaccurate, but I trust it. Interesting!

 

EDIT: Ninja'd, uh. Right, response time, gimme a sec, here. ;D

 

1. Phonetics vary! I can do this all day.

2. Whose to say how many of these beings exist, though?

[leaguer of one]

Your complete lack of self-awareness is astounding!

 

Or do you just choose to ignore as well that what you're doing is pure hypocrisy?

No, I just look for repeated patterns first before I jump on something.  if a hypothesis comes to a conclusion with a result you'll then do the test again to see if the same result happens again.

We got that for the gods theory but not the being of thedus being spirits theory.

[Lethaya]

Eh, it's all speculative. It all has some evidence, a bunch of holes, and probably one or two problems you could use to pull the rug out from whoever's arguing it. Which is rather the point, I suppose. Possibilities!

 

This thread is all over the place, but it's an enjoyable kind of all over the place, you know that? XD