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[midnight tea]

My memory is a bit faulty, but did he ever give his view on the Forgotten Ones? Most of his negative thoughts of the elven gods seemed to be more aimed towards the Creators, but I don't really remember him ever discussing the Forgotten Ones at all. Which is something I always thought was a bit weird, since Fen'Harel was considered a member of both groups.

 

Why would he mention Forgotten Ones? Wouldn't that be a dead giveaway that he knows more than he should (even with all his wanderings in the Fade), when 99% of elves have little to no clue what Forgotten Ones names were (aside from maybe 3 or 4 names), much less who they really were? And if they have such scarce knowledge of them, humans and other races would know even less.

 

He also keeps his opinion of Elven Gods to himself up until Temple Of Mythal - he only mentions that he believes they existence, but not that they were 'gods' per se (in banter with Cassandra).

[Urzon]

Why would he mention Forgotten Ones? Wouldn't that be a dead giveaway that he knows more than he should (even with all his wanderings in the Fade), when 99% of elves have little to no clue what Forgotten Ones names were (aside from maybe 3 or 4 names), much less who they really were? And if they have such scarce knowledge of them, humans and other races would know even less.

It wouldn't be all that different then Solas having his lost knowledge but the Creators really. I'm sure that 99% of the elves today don't know about Falon'Din being a huge douchebag that waged wars on his own people to try and convert their worship to him by way of sword. Or that Andruil was also known as the goddess of sacrifice, and she hunted both mortals and animals for sport.

Solas already admitted to the Inquisitor that he had knowledge of how the ancient elves worked before their fall from his "supposed" Fade walking. He could have easily used the same excuse for any knowledge regarding the Forgotten Ones as well, since they wouldn't have been forgotten by time yet. They were an open part of the ancient elves culture back then by being the dark adversaries of the Creators.

[midnight tea]

She can't remember much... of what? Her past? She was taken to noblewoman's house when she was very little - it's not surprising she doesn't remember much before that. Vivienne doesn't remember her parents as well, nor she cares for them (she says her life began in a Circle)... Does that make her a goddess?

 

Has gift with a bow? Hardly a pointer, as I've already pointed out. All of the companions (as well as the Inquisitor) are noted to be remarkably skilled, trained or not. Besides, Sera never really answers (after she opens up) whether an initial group that accepted her into her midst also trained her - but she does say that she was given at least some pointers at the beginning, so it's not like she picked a bow and BAM! Instant master bowman.

 

Cole said her arrows see the mark before she even fires and she's touched by the Fade (says her ears point toward it)

 

Eh... I'll just re-paste what I wrote about in earlier post:

 

The only thing I see implied is that Sera is special, because elves are special... And I'm pretty sure it's obvious for most people now, seeing how much of the story revolves around glorious elven past, as well as the Fade to which elves have special connection to.  

 

So, Sera is unique only in a sense that she's been raised predominantly around humans - therefore many things she thinks are weird (like, say, deja-vu) are weird for her, because she either doesn't know that it's an 'elfy thing' or nobody taught her how to react to those. It's pretty apparent in this banter (direct quote):

 

Sera: (shivers) Weird.

Solas: Sera? What are you feeling?

Sera: Ugh, here we go. It’s nothing, it just feels like I've seen this. Exactly this. It happens.

Solas: Not to everyone.

 

(If Inquisitor is an elf)

Sera: It’s not an elf thing. Inquisitor's not shaking.

 

(Otherwise)

Sera: It’s not an elf thing. You’re not shaking.

 

Neither Solas, nor elf Inquistor make a big deal out of it, because - in all likelihood - for them this is a thing they're familiar with and one they either know how to cope with or ignore, since they've been raised in a community to which it was also a familiar thing. So, to any other elf is likely just a part of life - and since they usually stick to their own, most may not even be aware that something they do is unique to themselves or worth mentioning. They live in their own, 'elfy bubble', so to speak.

It's like... it would be weird for an elf or human raised around dwarves to say that they have dreams since dwarves have no idea how is it to dream - yet among elves and humans dreaming is just part of life, therefore they don't go around being all "Uh, WEIRD!" every time it happens to them.

 

Also - it's a bold statement to claim that Sera has stronger connection than any other city elf, considering that there's no other city elf we spend equal time around.

There's also a tidbit in DAI that flies in the face of such assessment - easily missed, but already caught by fans, namely: after events in Temple of Mythal, if you go to Val Royeaux, you can find an elven servant there, talking about a woman calling herself Mythal in his dreams, which makes him wake up screaming every night.

 

And that's just a random city elf we know nothing about.

 

Like I said - it's more reasonable to asses that Bioware writers made Sera "special" only in a sense, that through her they've shown that elves are indeed special - even those who fervently deny any connection with their heritage, which only makes elven gifts or uniqueness of them stick out even more than they usually do.

If you look at it that way, it's actually pretty goddamn ingenious. There's no need to make it a giant (and totally unnecessary) plot twist for it to be meaningful to the story.

 

As for Cole making cryptic comments - he does that for everyone (thanks to that he also explains to audience how spirits and their realm works).

Plus, he also says that "he is where the knife should be", meaning that the whole 'seeing the mark before firing' think is related to some sensitivity to the Fade (Avvar warriors use similar technique) and NOT "Andruilness".

 

 

 She's considered crazy and we all know Andruil went mad.

 

Apples and oranges... She's crazy only in a sense that she's a random goofball. Her 'craziness' can hardly be compared to Void-induced madness that made Andruil hunt for frikking gods.

 

Plus, how is it that people conveniently forget that Andruil has been noted to be a passionate and exceptional hunter, more than she's an archer, really? And Sera might be a good archer, but she's NOT noted to be a good hunter of any sort. In fact, she hates outdoors and gets herself lost anywhere outside of the city.

 

 

 

Her fear in the raw Fade is Nothing and the Void is considered that

 

And Iron Bull's fear is madness and - as you noted earlier - Andruil went mad. (also, if the Void was actually "nothing" would Solas say that there are 'stirrings of the energy in the Void' after his spirit friend was killed?)

 

"Nothing" can really mean everything - from Sera being terrified by the nothingness or silence that threatens magic and all magical creatures (and elves are ones) to irrelevance, like in case of Vivienne.

 

 

perhaps she's a chosen vessel or a key to something else

 

 

I think we have more pointers to Inquisitor being that than we do Sera.

 

She's not acting, she really is that way because she doesn't know who she truly is and she's very afraid she'll find out something she doesn't want to know, so she's always in denial.

 

Yet it's not like her issues with identity can be explained only by her being a vessel or lost goddess or whatever - in fact, she has very good reasons to be the way she is: being raised by humans from very little, in a world where (as Solas says it) most people don't look beyond a pair of pointed ears. So, she never can really find her place among humans, while she also can't find her place among elves either. That's actually a fairly common psychological basis on which one can grow identity crisis.

 

 

And if the theory the Gods are connected and/or trapped to/in the Eluvian's is true, all these destroying them or using them might have awoken something.

 

So far we don't know anything about the eluvian that apparently holds the gods being destroyed or used. The post-credit scene suggests that it isn't. And according to Cole at least they (whoever THEY actually is) still "sleep, masked in a mirror".

[midnight tea]

It wouldn't be all that different then Solas having his lost knowledge but the Creators really. I'm sure that 99% of the elves today don't know about Falon'Din being a huge douchebag that waged wars on his own people to try and convert their worship to him by way of sword. Or that Andruil was also known as the goddess of sacrifice, and she hunted both mortals and animals for sport.

Solas already admitted to the Inquisitor that he had knowledge of how the ancient elves worked before their fall from his "supposed" Fade walking. He could have easily used the same excuse for any knowledge regarding the Forgotten Ones as well, since they wouldn't have been forgotten by time yet. They were an open part of the ancient elves culture back then by being the dark adversaries of the Creators.

 

Most (Dalish, at least) elves still know who Creators are and have rough idea which one is which. They don't have even that when it comes to Forgotten Ones.

 

Also - having knowledge about ancient elves, "echoes of the old empire" as he says it, is a different knowledge than knowing hearts and minds of dark gods shrouded by mystery. 

 

Also, I'm not sure they were an open part of ancient elven culture as you claimed they were, considering that they're called the Forgotten Ones.

[midnight tea]

 

Sera can't remember what she seems to be forcing herself not to remember. 

 

That's not saying much. And if she wants to cut herself away from elves entirely - as she seems to do - are you really surprised? There's really no need to force that connection, when she has understandable reasons to act the way she does.

 

Also - she seems to be forcing herself not to care or remember about being from Denerim as well. She does that, because like she says: 'she doesn't like complicated'. She deliberately avoids everything that would complicate her simple life and views on the world - that's pretty well established. Even more reason to not think about complicated situation of elves.

 

And while not a perfect analogy... gay people who are raised in environment hostile to gay are also like that - in fact, statistically, it's been shown that those most suppressed shout the loudest about NOT being one. Same with Sera having any sort of 'elfy' talents she doesn't want nor understands.

 

Also, don't forget that she keeps maintaining that elves are no different from humans, in pretty much every respect. So she wants to keep to herself even more that she might be somewhat 'special' simply because of her elven blood.

 

 

I think we I found most interesting is the Elven words Soals speaks to her about, vne though she acts immature in response, plus she proves she actually knows about the Elven Gods, specifically Ghilan'nain which is a rather humoros moment when she talks about it and everyone looks at her like "what?" lol 

 

... I'm sorry, but what do you find interesting about the exchange Solas and Sera had, really? Because it's not like it's implied that she understood what he said - only that she is entirely uninterested in it.

 

Also, her knowing about one elven god at random is hardly any pointer - like you said, it's probably mostly a humorous thing. Also, how are you going to explain her post-Mythal gloating that what elves did was just some stupid demon worship? How are you going to explain that she actually believes in Andraste and the Maker?

 

 

Iron Bull is afraid of madness because of demons and possession.

 

No, he's pretty much afraid of madness overall. He's especially afraid that he'll become mad if he becomes Tal-Vashoth - the prime reason why he sticks to the Qun as long as he does.

 

 

You make some valid points, but I can't claim what you say or I say is true or right. It's all in what we feel and believe as there is no fact to say one is wrong. 

 

No, that's not "all in what we feel" - I mean, ultimately you're entitled your own opinion, but that doesn't mean that all opinions are equal per se. Fictional world or not, some things can be extrapolated or proved to be more sound and evidence-based than others. Like I said before - connecting the dots is all nice and fun, but it can't be done indiscriminately: otherwise we end with theories, beliefs and speculations that simply 'muddy the water', instead of providing any sort of coherent or probable picture of in-story events or details.

[Urzon]

Most (Dalish, at least) elves still know who Creators are and have rough idea which one is which. They don't have even that when it comes to Forbidden Gods.
 
Also - having knowledge about ancient elves, "echoes of the old empire" as he says it, is a different knowledge than knowing hearts and minds of dark gods shrouded by mystery. 
 
Also, I'm not sure they were an open part of ancient elven culture as you claimed they were, considering that they're called the Forgotten Ones.

The Dalish and their limited general knowledge on the Forgotten Ones aren't apart of the equation though in this scenario. I was wondering why Solas never really mentioned them or gave his general thoughts on the matter. He doesn't need to know the Forgotten Ones hearts and minds to give his opinion on them or their legends to the Inquisitor.

As yes, they were an open part of ancient elven culture back then. The Pyre of the Forgotten basically says that outright in its description.

 

The Forgotten Ones belong to the ancient Elven pantheon, but their names were lost after the Great Betrayal. Their worship continued in the shadows, despite efforts to stamp it out in the old Dalish kingdom. This staff belonged to a priest of those gods, specifically Daern'thal.

 

Their names only got forgotten by most of the elven population after the Great Betrayal. Before that, the Forgotten Ones label was only the name of their faction of the elfish pantheon like Mythal and Co. were know as "The Creators". They are/were also secretly worshipped by a number of elves afterwards. Which would go in hand with the fact they are considered gods, since they are members of the elven pantheon after all.

[midnight tea]

Lol I meant she's hiding from something she doesn't know, and it's intriguing to wonder what she's fearing.

 

Aside from her well-established fear of anything magic-related, which only amplifies her fear of natural, magical talents that may lay dormant in every elf?

 

It really doesn't have to be THAT complicated and I've already given ample and logical reasons why she's either afraid or chooses to ignore 'elfy stuff'.

 

 

Ah because of JOH I see things a bit different now regarding Elven Gods and Andraste, but also, if Sera is trying to avoid what she was, she would denounce everything that connects to it. *shrugs* Who knows?

 

Like I said - she has ample, non-Andruil'ish reasons to denounce things the way she does. She like the world uncomplicated and she pretty much denounces everything she deems as such. She grows somewhat at the end (if we befriend her and help her work out her issues) - and her cookie/roof scene only shows how resistant she is, even to just learning a life lesson.

 

 

Yeah IB was re-educated because of that, along with his fear of losing control, which would also make him a good host for a demon.

 

 

Yet the demon possession - while also one of his fears - is NOT the primary reason why he fears madness. We talk with him much about Tal-Vashoth and it's pretty apparent how much he's afraid of becoming one, as he associates everything that's worst (predominantly the madness and losing control of oneself) with them.

 

 

It's just how I am. I see it my own way, try and take other's views and see it their way too, notice things, agree with things or disagree, but nothing changes my view if I want to believe in something and see it through to the end, finding out if I was right or wrong and learning from it. I don't force my own beliefs, or facts on anyone, I simply study, conclude things how I perceive them and see what happens! It's fun! 

 

I agree that it's fun and like I said, you're entitled to your own opinion I for once don't intend to force my own - it's just that I like to confront either my thoughts or those of others with more... hmmm.... factual and logical approach? That's how I am. Don't get me wrong, I like bouncing off ideas and speculating like every other person fascinated with a good story (and I think previous pages of this thread are a testament for it) and I think there's value to bolder speculations. 

[Lethaya]

See, Sera just makes me wonder about that small box the Warden delivered to Red Jenny in DA:O. I mean, they seemed to really want that box, it was stashed away in Irving's office, and Sera apparently played with it as a kid. It's probably nothing but a fun cameo kind of connection, but at the same time, what if there was somethign inside that thing? >:V

 

Most (Dalish, at least) elves still know who Creators are and have rough idea which one is which. They don't have even that when it comes to Forgotten Ones.

 

Also - having knowledge about ancient elves, "echoes of the old empire" as he says it, is a different knowledge than knowing hearts and minds of dark gods shrouded by mystery. 

 

Also, I'm not sure they were an open part of ancient elven culture as you claimed they were, considering that they're called the Forgotten Ones.

 

This. It's (really) unfortunate we don't get to hear about the from Solas's perspective, but it makes sense.

 

 

As yes, they were an open part of ancient elven culture back then. The Pyre of the Forgotten basically says that outright in its description.

 

I've never read that description before... that is verrry interesting, thanks for the link! Huh.
 

 

[midnight tea]

The Dalish and their limited general knowledge on the Forgotten Ones aren't apart of the equation though in this scenario. I was wondering why Solas never really mentioned them or gave his general thoughts on the matter. He doesn't need to know the Forgotten Ones hearts and minds to give his opinion on them or their legends to the Inquisitor.

As yes, they were an open part of ancient elven culture back then. The Pyre of the Forgotten basically says that outright in its description.

 

Um, if you read description it pretty clearly says "Their worship continued in the shadows, despite efforts to stamp it out in the old Dalish kingdom."

 

That itself says everything you need to know. It doesn't matter how worshiped they were before, if elven memory was warped by years of suppression, destruction of their culture, misinformation and whoever knows what else.

 

Don't forget that the same fate partially happened to Fen'Harel - seems that what elves remember is very different to what he was or what happened in ancient times. After all, he was (apparently) an openly worshiped divine figure that had statue in Temple of Mythal, but even Morrigan - the self-declared expert on elven lore - is all like "what is THIS doing here?

 

Abelas also reveals that Fen'Harel has nothing to do with Mythal's murder - and Solas neither comments on Mythal's murder (something elven lore entirely omitted) nor that he had nothing to do with at that particular betrayal.

 

Taking that into account, why would he randomly reveal his opinion on Forgotten Ones? Maybe he's the one who aided in forgetting them? Maybe he himself had forgotten or was made to forget? Maybe when he said that "gods were arrogant and fickle, they warred with one another, had feuds and vendetta" he also meant that about Forgotten Ones? Or maybe we'll find out his opinion about them later? It's not like the story is over.

[midnight tea]

See, Sera just makes me wonder about that small box the Warden delivered to Red Jenny in DA:O. I mean, they seemed to really want that box, it was stashed away in Irving's office, and Sera apparently played with it as a kid. It's probably nothing but a fun cameo kind of connection, but at the same time, what if there was somethign inside that thing? >:V

 

 

Um, Sera said that "she played with small painted boxes" - I don't think she meant one particular wooden box. Besides she was what... 10 back then?

 

Also - even Sera admits that there were many, unaffiliated "Red Jennies".

[Lethaya]

And it was a small painted box. But she would have been, hum. Yeah, around 10 I would think? That's made her 22 or so at the start of the game. We delivered it to Denerim's Red Jenny (Or Jennies!), and she grew up in Denerim during that time period. Most likely it was a throwback of little significance, if anything at all, but... I've wanted to know more about that blasted box since DA:O, sigh. XD

[xPez]

So to sum up based on actual confirmed canon rather than theories, rather than there being 3 Old Gods are Skyhold there are in fact 1 Elvhen God, potentially the soul of an Old God depending on Keep choices, and Sera, an elf.

 

For the people who believe Sera is an elvhen god, is she the spirit of a god in a mortal's body or is she actually the god woken up after centuries of madness/sleep.

 

That kind of touches on other theories that the gods are actually powerful spirits in powerful bodies, but Solas has never seemed like that to me. Mythal is, but she was betrayed and killed so only her spirit remains. Is Solas just a spirit inhabiting a body, so the actual bald-headed loveliness that we know is just his current host, or is he the actual Dread Wolf woken after years of slumber?

[midnight tea]

Ah I see we agree on something! Lol yes I feel she fears her own magic, and in a way she uses magic, but not like a Mage. As Cole said, the her ears point to the Fade. As an Andruil perspective, she is sensing the trapped Gods in the City, as a special case perspective, the magic is awakening in her.

 

Well Solas himself suggests nothing except that she might have dormant magical talents (which freaks her out). That's not really that surprising considering that elves are naturally more inclined to have ones. 

 

Also - taking into account what Solas does or might be doing... I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that all elves suddenly turned magical. Like, not ancient gods or anything, but whatever Solas does, might ignite that spark of magic in elves (I once again point at the random city elf screaming about Mythal at night)...

Other, more crazy variant of that particular speculation is all of them turning into zombies (elfombies?) 

 

 

I'm not saying she's Andruil, as that is just one possibility if I go by one theory. More like Sandal maybe would be the best way to explain what I think. He's a dwarf that can have nightmares and saw Flemeth (I think) talking to him. I always grow our friendship. I don't know why people don't like her. She's very loyal and when I call her family, she says she might cry and then punch someone.

 

Yeah, i heard of Sandal theories as well. I'd say that theories suggesting that he's more than a uniquely talented dwarf hold more water than some other theoires I heard about... but I wouldn't go crazy with that one as well.

 

As for Sera - I always befriend her. My main (female elf mage) Inquisitor kinda thinks of her as a younger sister she has to take care of/help to grow. Plus, maybe remind her of simple, childish innocence my poor Quizzy knows she's losing in the process of becoming the world leader

 

 

I feel IB would be dangerous, perhaps even impossible to save if he let go of his control.

 

Which is why he's so afraid. But while Qunari are taught to fear demons, they're specifically taught to be afraid of their life without Qun - it's a fairly common, but mighty effective psychological manipulation (the always-effective "only rules from our holy text shall save you from your filthy, sinful nature and flames of Hell!"). That's the source of Bull's fear, as well as a great illustration of what's wrong with Qunari society.

 

 

That's why I like chatting with you. You challenge me and give facts, not forced fanfiction. I like that. I'm logical too, but I'm trying to see things through different perspectives. If I add full on logic, I can honestly see things you way. I'm just trying to see both sides.

 

I'm glad that you enjoy it^^ And likewise - I'm always happy to talk with reasonable people who discuss things in friendly manner

[midnight tea]

That kind of touches on other theories that the gods are actually powerful spirits in powerful bodies, but Solas has never seemed like that to me. Mythal is, but she was betrayed and killed so only her spirit remains. Is Solas just a spirit inhabiting a body, so the actual bald-headed loveliness that we know is just his current host, or is he the actual Dread Wolf woken after years of slumber?

 

 

Seems like slumber to me - but even if he had that body for centuries/millenia, it's still not 100% certain that it was always the case.

[Urzon]

Um, if you read description it pretty clearly says "Their worship continued in the shadows, despite efforts to stamp it out in the old Dalish kingdom."
 
That itself says everything you need to know. It doesn't matter how worshiped they were before, if elven memory was warped by years of suppression, destruction of their culture, misinformation and whoever knows what else.
 
...
 
Taking that into account, why would he randomly reveal his opinion on Forgotten Ones? Maybe he's the one who aided in forgetting them? Maybe he himself had forgotten or was made to forget? Maybe when he said that "gods were arrogant and fickle, they warred with one another, had feuds and vendetta" he also meant that about Forgotten Ones? Or maybe we'll find out his opinion about them later? It's not like the story is over.

As I said before, modern elven perception of the Forgotten Ones doesn't matter much in this scenario other than the fact that they do know about them. Solas was "supposedly" getting his knowledge on the elven pantheon and related subjects from the Fade memories of ancient elven locations and events. That would have been during the time when the Forgotten Ones were commonly know.

After the Temple of Mythal, that would have been a perfect time for an elven Inquisitor, or any type of Inquisitor really, to further ask Solas' opinion or knowledge on the pantheon after finding out the modern perception of it doesn't match the original. The same especially goes for the Forgotten Ones. Their details might have been lost to time to the modern elves, but the knowledge of their existence didn't it. That would have been an excellent subject to discuss with Solas about since he might have had knowledge about a part of their culture almost totally lost to them.

As for finding out about them later, unless they add another DLC centered around them or having them as a major element, I doubt it when it comes to DAI. JoH foreshadowed more on the topic with the codex from Geldauran, but I wouldn't be all that surprised if we have to wait until DA4 for more knowledge about them and their involvement in Thedas.

[Ariella]

So to sum up based on actual confirmed canon rather than theories, rather than there being 3 Old Gods are Skyhold there are in fact 1 Elvhen God, potentially the soul of an Old God depending on Keep choices, and Sera, an elf.

 

For the people who believe Sera is an elvhen god, is she the spirit of a god in a mortal's body or is she actually the god woken up after centuries of madness/sleep.

 

That kind of touches on other theories that the gods are actually powerful spirits in powerful bodies, but Solas has never seemed like that to me. Mythal is, but she was betrayed and killed so only her spirit remains. Is Solas just a spirit inhabiting a body, so the actual bald-headed loveliness that we know is just his current host, or is he the actual Dread Wolf woken after years of slumber?

 

Xpez, there's no confirmation that Sera is anything other than an elf at this point. There's a theory (cue ) that Sera is, but nothing confirmed. So it's one Elven God and the Old God Soul depending.

[xPez]

Xpez, there's no confirmation that Sera is anything other than an elf at this point. There's a theory (cue "[post='https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gY8HilVZXQ']I've Got a Theory[/post]") that Sera is, but nothing confirmed. So it's one Elven God and the Old God Soul depending.

 

I know, which is why I wrote and Sera, an elf. I was more bringing attention to the fact that although there are a lot of theories and circumstantial evidence linked to all of them (Sera a god, OG=EG etc), going purely on what we have confirmed it's just an EG and potentially an OG.

 

 

EDIT: OG being Old God, not Original Gangsta.

[Ariella]

I know, which is why I wrote and Sera, an elf.

 

Sorry, brain fry.

[Lethaya]

I would think, if Sera were an Elvhen Goddess in disguise, she would need to be a host rather than a literal Goddess herself, just because she's had a recent childhood and upbringing in Denerim. Which is an issue.

 

I think my main issue with this theory is that it'd require Andruil to have escaped whatever confines Solas put the gods in, and nothing we've seen so far has hinted that is a possibility. Yet we've had a lot of talk about sealing them away, betrayal, and faces behind mirrors. Ehhh.