402 réponses à ce sujet

[midnight tea]

As I said before, modern elven perception of the Forgotten Ones doesn't matter much in this scenario other than the fact that they do know about them. Solas was "supposedly" getting his knowledge on the elven pantheon and related subjects from the Fade memories of ancient elven locations and events. That would have been during the time when the Forgotten Ones were commonly know.

After the Temple of Mythal, that would have been a perfect time for an elven Inquisitor, or any type of Inquisitor really, to further ask Solas' opinion or knowledge on the pantheon after finding out the modern perception of it doesn't match the original. The same especially goes for the Forgotten Ones. Their details might have been lost to time to the modern elves, but the knowledge of their existence didn't it. That would have been an excellent subject to discuss with Solas about since he might have had knowledge about a part of their culture almost totally lost to them.

As for finding out about them later, unless they add another DLC centered around them or having them as a major element, I doubt it when it comes to DAI. JoH foreshadowed more on the topic with the codex from Geldauran, but I wouldn't be all that surprised if we have to wait until DA4 for more knowledge about them and their involvement in Thedas.

 

Whether perception is modern or not and what Solas says he's found in the Fade is irrelevant, considering that it's obvious he's not telling us everything, whatever might be the reason for it.

 

Heck, he even took his girlfriend to a romantic spot to reveal who he really is... and found himself being unable to so, because, according to him "the answers would only  lead to more questions"... And considering that we're yet to figure out what elven gods were and what this whole Betrayal thing is and why they disappeared, asking about the possible splinter group of gods the memory of which was stamped out seems kinda random and irrelevant, especially considering that the threat of Corypheus returning still looms on the horizon.

 

 

As for finding out about them later, unless they add another DLC centered around them or having them as a major element, I doubt it when it comes to DAI. JoH foreshadowed more on the topic with the codex from Geldauran, but I wouldn't be all that surprised if we have to wait until DA4 for more knowledge about them and their involvement in Thedas. 

 

Well then... why are you expecting answers about Forbidden Gods now?

[midnight tea]

Yes I don't think it's like being reborn, I think the real Sera was just a kid, but somehow she got possessed I guess you could say? All the tampering with the mirrors might have unbalanced something. Morrigan might have done something too. I feel that Sera's fighting the thoughts that belong to Andruil if we go with that theory. I have others too. She's fighting against what an elf is and stands for because of her memories and Andruil's because if she doesn't, she'll become her and Andruil's thoughts already haunt her, like her fear of Nothing and hate of Mythal. Her fear of Nothing could also be Sera's actual fear that she will become nothing if she's overtaken.

 

Like I said, I think we have more reasons to suspect Inquisitor himself/herself might be a vessel to *something* more than any other member of Inquisition (well, except for Solas, obviously).

 

I'll just... paste what I speculated about it at DA wiki forum:

 

I hope you forgive me this random plunge into the Sea of Speculation. I admit, this one is a rather far-fetched idea, but I can't help wondering if there's anything to it. I mean, barring some tidbits about the nature of souls and spirits I wish not to spoil to anyone who didn't get to play JOH yet, there's some info in DAI that could be interpreted as indicating that Inquisitor is more 'speshul' than we may initially think they are, aside from wielding the uber-special Anchor, that they apparently 'stole' accidentally.

 

It would undermine the whole "just a (relatively) normal person can establish or change the course of history" angle, which I'm not sure Bioware intends to undermine - but considering Thedas is a place where supernatural exists and where power of the will apparently can dominate everything, whether someone is more or less special in a magical sense may not be that relevant in the end.

 

Anyhoo, the info that made me suspect something is going on comes from - well, who else? - Solas and Cole. Everyone who befriended Solas got the scene where he wonders aloud whether the Anchor changed something within the Inquisitor; he doesn't seem to be convinced that's the case, but the apparent strength and wisdom of highly approved Inquisitor supposedly rivals something ancient. What's curious is that when Inquisitor of any background picks "I don't think I'm different from anyone" dialogue option, Solas disapproves and says that he/she isn't different only in terms of physical body.

 

There's even a tidbit that suggests that there's something 'spheshul' even in douchey/disapproved Inquisitors - after all, one of the first things Solas asks about in his angry scene is "Are you blissfully unaware or, deep inside, is some part of you banging on the walls, screaming?"

 

Cole adds to this whole confusion - he clams that the Inquisitor is "too bright", while it's been well-established that brightness and its strength is associated with powerful beings, at least in Fade-ish terms. I'd like to note that it's apparently not the Anchor's doing - it only makes the IQ even brighter.

 

Then there's whole Solas romance thing where he gushes about his girlfriend being unique and possessing a 'rare and marvelous spirit' - which... ok, let's assume that even Mr. Stoic has a case of looking at her through rose-colored glasses. But then we have Cole again, revealing that apparently she's real, and it means everyone could be real - that's the line that makes my brain throb.

 

The clues are too scarce to form a cohesive picture, but it makes me wonder whether there was a time in Thedas' (pre-Thedas?) history that existed before races - or even gods - emerged, where everyone was beautiful, bright and wholesome, only for changes to the world either decimate them or maybe prevent them from being born/reborn (if we assume that the way sentient, physical beings are 'born' are through the process Cole is going through) or made them small/incomplete/petty. That COULD explain why Solas is so baffled with the existence of Inquisitor - the one soul that apparently slipped through to the world too murky and bleak for it to either exist or thrive. Yet it did, she/he is real, therefore others could be reborn too?

 

Uh, I know there's very little to support it, but while it may not be what I think it is, those things are hinting towards something. And it's not just Solas and Cole - though the 'Divine' in the Fade or Flemeth/Kieran's comments about Inquisitor may be a little too cryptic/vague to extrapolate anything meaningful.

 

I also can't make sense out of Inquisitor glowing - no matter who drank from the Well - right before the escape from Temple of Mythal. The glow is identical to the one we see on the spectre lady in the water and appears NOT after either Morrigan or Inquisitor drinks from the Well, but only after IQ is surrounded by magical vapors emerging from the ground. Granted, I'm convinced that it is simply be a visual bug.... But is it?  

[midnight tea]

Oh I agree with that. I think you even get called by an Elven name (Dirth) if I recall if you drink from the Well, but because it's optional, it's questioned. Also, I feel like the game tries to convince you that you are Andraste reborn or something. Mother Giselle's comparison, Cass saying (if you play a female) that once again the fate of Thedas is decided by a woman. No doubt that your Inquisitor is more than what they seem.

 

I saw the glowing too. It's odd, and it's also odd how your Inquisitor reacts when the "Divine" touches you in the Fade. Like something affected you. And in the DLC the spirits... "like" you and can see you all the time.

 

Well, to be fair, spirits in JOH seem to mostly react to the Anchor. Still, I just don't think everything that happens to the Herald CAN be explained by the effects of the Anchor - like, what was this whole thing about "spirits saying to Avvar augur that Inquisitor returned from the place in the Fade where cliffs are red - and did something to time?" HUH?

 

Also - even acquiring the Anchor seems kinda... suspicious? Like, how is it that the Inquisitor is THE ONLY ONE that finds out about Corypheus' secret ritual?

 

Some say it's Maker's providence, but considering that he's the deity people are inclined to LEAST believe in (I mean, players, not people in Thedas) and considering Mythal's meddling, I wonder who else is involved?

Or is it like in Kingdoms of Amalur?

[xPez]

Sorry, brain fry.

 

It's fine, I think it's just this thread. The bit a few pages ago talking about the Crossroads, eventually I just had no idea what anyone was talking about

 

 

About the Inquisitor, I hadn't really noticed any of that before. Midnight_Tea I do really like your theory, but what do you think is special about the Inquisitor, or rather what they are a vessel for? The other Elvhen Gods should still be locked away, although before DA:I we thought Mythal was locked away with them.

[Ariella]

 

Like I said, I think we have more reasons to suspect Inquisitor himself/herself might be a vessel to *something* more than any other member of Inquisition (well, except for Solas, obviously).

 

I'll just... paste what I speculated about it at DA wiki forum:

 

I hope you forgive me this random plunge into the Sea of Speculation. I admit, this one is a rather far-fetched idea, but I can't help wondering if there's anything to it. I mean, barring some tidbits about the nature of souls and spirits I wish not to spoil to anyone who didn't get to play JOH yet, there's some info in DAI that could be interpreted as indicating that Inquisitor is more 'speshul' than we may initially think they are, aside from wielding the uber-special Anchor, that they apparently 'stole' accidentally.

 

It would undermine the whole "just a (relatively) normal person can establish or change the course of history" angle, which I'm not sure Bioware intends to undermine - but considering Thedas is a place where supernatural exists and where power of the will apparently can dominate everything, whether someone is more or less special in a magical sense may not be that relevant in the end.

 

Anyhoo, the info that made me suspect something is going on comes from - well, who else? - Solas and Cole. Everyone who befriended Solas got the scene where he wonders aloud whether the Anchor changed something within the Inquisitor; he doesn't seem to be convinced that's the case, but the apparent strength and wisdom of highly approved Inquisitor supposedly rivals something ancient. What's curious is that when Inquisitor of any background picks "I don't think I'm different from anyone" dialogue option, Solas disapproves and says that he/she isn't different only in terms of physical body.

 

There's even a tidbit that suggests that there's something 'spheshul' even in douchey/disapproved Inquisitors - after all, one of the first things Solas asks about in his angry scene is "Are you blissfully unaware or, deep inside, is some part of you banging on the walls, screaming?"

 

Cole adds to this whole confusion - he clams that the Inquisitor is "too bright", while it's been well-established that brightness and its strength is associated with powerful beings, at least in Fade-ish terms. I'd like to note that it's apparently not the Anchor's doing - it only makes the IQ even brighter.

 

Then there's whole Solas romance thing where he gushes about his girlfriend being unique and possessing a 'rare and marvelous spirit' - which... ok, let's assume that even Mr. Stoic has a case of looking at her through rose-colored glasses. But then we have Cole again, revealing that apparently she's real, and it means everyone could be real - that's the line that makes my brain throb.

 

The clues are too scarce to form a cohesive picture, but it makes me wonder whether there was a time in Thedas' (pre-Thedas?) history that existed before races - or even gods - emerged, where everyone was beautiful, bright and wholesome, only for changes to the world either decimate them or maybe prevent them from being born/reborn (if we assume that the way sentient, physical beings are 'born' are through the process Cole is going through) or made them small/incomplete/petty. That COULD explain why Solas is so baffled with the existence of Inquisitor - the one soul that apparently slipped through to the world too murky and bleak for it to either exist or thrive. Yet it did, she/he is real, therefore others could be reborn too?

 

Uh, I know there's very little to support it, but while it may not be what I think it is, those things are hinting towards something. And it's not just Solas and Cole - though the 'Divine' in the Fade or Flemeth/Kieran's comments about Inquisitor may be a little too cryptic/vague to extrapolate anything meaningful.

 

I also can't make sense out of Inquisitor glowing - no matter who drank from the Well - right before the escape from Temple of Mythal. The glow is identical to the one we see on the spectre lady in the water and appears NOT after either Morrigan or Inquisitor drinks from the Well, but only after IQ is surrounded by magical vapors emerging from the ground. Granted, I'm convinced that it is simply be a visual bug.... But is it?

 

 

I remember this discussion.

 

My big thing when it comes to Sera is that Andruil, unlike Mythal, doesn't seem to be dead. It's possible but not probable at this point, unless all the Elven Gods but Solas were murdered. If it was transmigration, Sera would have a heck of a lot darker personality than she does. I certainly don't see her as having the kind of willpower to keep from being overwhelmed by an insane goddess. It's possible that it's reincarnation, but that's not just movement of a soul into another body after death, it's rebirth of a soul, and there's nothing in Thedas' religions that indicated reincarnation exists. I suppose it could and nobody would be aware of it, but honestly, hitting us out of the blue like that strikes me as really bad storytelling. 

 

And from my reading, Andruil's madness is a warping of her. She's what happens when you stare into the Abyss too long. Yes, it was forced on her, but doesn't change the fact it happens. Sera is more lighthearted, she's a prankster not dark, and she seems to be rather impatient with that kind of attitude. She wants the world back to normal so she can have a good, and profitable, time.

[Ariella]

Well, to be fair, spirits in JOH seem to mostly react to the Anchor. Still, I just don't think everything that happens to the Herald CAN be explained by the effects of the Anchor - like, what was this whole thing about "spirits saying to Avvar augur that Inquisitor returned from the place in the Fade where cliffs are red - and did something to time?" HUH?

 

Also - even acquiring the Anchor seems kinda... suspicious? Like, how is it that the Inquisitor is THE ONLY ONE that finds out about Corypheus' secret ritual?

 

Some say it's Maker's providence, but considering that he's the deity people are inclined to LEAST believe in (I mean, players, not people in Thedas) and considering Mythal's meddling, I wonder who else is involved?

Or is it like in Kingdoms of Amalur?

 

Spirits saying to the Avvar augur? I missed that one. I had the Augur tell me that he could sense I had already killed with one (god) of Envy who tried to claim my crown.

 

I'm happily willing to grant it might be somebody pulling the strings on the Inquisitor, and if you take a look at least three people in the cast have been affected by Mythal's meddling directly, to the point it brought them to the Inquisition. Leliana, Varric and Cullen. The last is the most interesting case considering he never even has the potential to meet Flemeth, but his live is pretty much shattered by her manipulations. 

 

The Inquisitor, him/herself, could also be such a side effect. Less direct meddling and more a domino effect or a butterfly one.

[midnight tea]

About the Inquisitor, I hadn't really noticed any of that before. Midnight_Tea I do really like your theory, but what do you think is special about the Inquisitor, or rather what they are a vessel for? The other Elvhen Gods should still be locked away, although before DA:I we thought Mythal was locked away with them.

 

Honestly, I have no clue what it may mean - or if it means anything at all. Whatever the Inquisitor is might not be even related to elven gods per se - maybe, like I mentioned, it's "simply" an ancient soul of unique strength that predates everything bad that happened to the world? Or maybe it's something new? Or some sort of 'blank slate', prepared to carry the power of some sort (either Anchor or something else)?

 

I mean, Morrigan is called "inheritor" by Kieran - somebody who awaits the new age in Thedas. Inquisitor is apparently the Herald of this age - what it means is anyone's guess (Avvar in JoH don't help to dispel that impression, when they call him/her 'First-Thaw'). Are they just supposed to prepare the path for new age - or more? In any case, It's hard to escape the impression the special role of Inquisitor is underlined by more than just people who want to believe that they're the chosen of Andraste and it seems to go beyond the power of the Anchor

[Ariella]

In the DLC they discuss rebirth of Gods. It might imply something in the future, but to who or what we don't know yet.

 

The implication I got is that its the dieties regenerating in some way, because the Lady of the Sky is always the Lady of the Sky. Hakkon needs to be "reborn" because he's stuck in that blasted dragon. He's still going to be Hakkon. Reincarnation tends to imply old soul but completely new person. Transmigration is a soul simply moving to another body, doesn't require being born.

[midnight tea]

Spirits saying to the Avvar augur? I missed that one. I had the Augur tell me that he could sense I had already killed with one (god) of Envy who tried to claim my crown.

 

 

Ah! That would explain it - if in your PT you pick Templars so you kill the demon (god) of Envy. In my case I picked mages and therefore there was this whole time conundrum, with future full of red lyrium - hence the whole mentioning of time and cliffs that are red (Redcliffe!).

 

 

I'm happily willing to grant it might be somebody pulling the strings on the Inquisitor, and if you take a look at least three people in the cast have been affected by Mythal's meddling directly, to the point it brought them to the Inquisition. Leliana, Varric and Cullen. The last is the most interesting case considering he never even has the potential to meet Flemeth, but his live is pretty much shattered by her manipulations. 

 

Flemeth is so totally a major player of some sort of mysterious magical version of the Great Game. I wonder who else is playing it?

 

 

The Inquisitor, him/herself, could also be such a side effect. Less direct meddling and more a domino effect or a butterfly one.

 

That's true as well. Might as well be just grand coincidence or the worst case of 'divine bad luck' (according to Varric) in history, lol.

[midnight tea]

The implication I got is that its the dieties regenerating in some way, because the Lady of the Sky is always the Lady of the Sky. Hakkon needs to be "reborn" because he's stuck in that blasted dragon. He's still going to be Hakkon. Reincarnation tends to imply old soul but completely new person. Transmigration is a soul simply moving to another body, doesn't require being born.

 

Actually, there's one or two instances where they mention that. Where souls or reborn people are "the same but different".

[midnight tea]

 

I actually find it amusing if this is true about The Inquisitor if you play a Noble. They are related to Dorian's family and we all know how Tevinter is viewed, and connects to this whole mess.

 

 

 

I was also thinking of the guy's dead father and their thoughts on rebirth, but I think Solas says something about that when Wisdom dies. Something like it might form, but it will not remember him or be the same.

 

 

Well, I think that if inquisitor is in any way 'speshul', then it's more about the quality of their soul, rather than any earthly connections. They can, after all, be of many races and backgrounds - though Kieran also makes comments that specifically mention their heritage (at lest when it comes to elves or Qunari).

[midnight tea]

Kirean is just one giant, walking Speculation Generator. I love and hate him for it.

[Ariella]

Flemeth is so totally a major player of some sort of mysterious magical version of the Great Game. I wonder who else is playing it?

 

 

That's true as well. Might as well be just grand coincidence or the worst case of 'divine bad luck' (according to Varric) in history, lol.

 

I see it as a multi sided game of chess. The Grand Game is more nebulous and a lot of it seems ****** for tat rather than focusing on a specific final outcome. Flemeth and friends are playing it to a very specific end, the problem is what's the end game going to look like if this little incident is, say, mid game.

 

In DAO I always referred to the choice of Warden as "there but for the grace of Duncan" since they all exist, it's just Duncan's choice of where he went recruiting prior to Ostagar that decided the outcome.

 

 

Actually, there's one or two instances where they mention that. Where souls or reborn people are "the same but different".

 

I'd forgotten this, but I'd hope they'd prime us better for it, because as a Chekov's gun, this kinda would suck.

[midnight tea]

I see it as a multi sided game of chess. The Grand Game is more nebulous and a lot of it seems ****** for tat rather than focusing on a specific final outcome. Flemeth and friends are playing it to a very specific end, the problem is what's the end game going to look like if this little incident is, say, mid game.

 

Well, considering that players don't seem to see many moves made on this cosmic keyboard, the game might as well be somewhat more disjointed than chess game. Seems the end goal might even elude potential/supposed allies, like in case of Mythal and Fen'Harel... And even if the ultimate goal might be the same, we're yet to find out if they actually agree on the road taken to it.

 

 

In DAO I always referred to the choice of Warden as "there but for the grace of Duncan" since they all exist, it's just Duncan's choice of where he went recruiting prior to Ostagar that decided the outcome.

 

Well, in case of the Herald, it *could* be that all potential candidates were at or near Temple of Sacred Ashes.... but how is it that only ONE person found out about Corypheus secret ritual? It's especially baffling in case we pick races other than humans, especially Dalish or dwarven 'spies' - how come they had access to what looks to be the middle section of the Temple???

 

It's kinda hard to accept that they might have, dunno: lost their way while searching for restroom?

 

Although that... would actually be pretty hilarious XD

 

 

I'd forgotten this, but I'd hope they'd prime us better for it, because as a Chekov's gun, this kinda would suck.

 

Well, they might do so yet, be it in more substantial DLC or DA4.

 

------

 

Anyhoo... more speculation!

 

I was kinda wondering about this bit from Havard's apocalyptic vision:

 

"And I looked up and saw

The seven gates of the Black City shatter,

And darkness cloaked both realms."

 

Aside from those things seemingly being a vague reference to "Seven Seals" from Biblical Book of Revelations, I was wondering... what if each uncorrupted Old God is actually a guardian or sort of metaphorical 'gate' into Black City proper?

 

In fact, why do we keep assuming that whispers of Old Gods that led magisters to do what they did actually come from these buried dragons? Even a codex on Old Gods from DAO claims that the names of Old Gods have been assigned to those dragons after years of fierce debate between scholars, so... huh.

[FemShem]

 

Well, considering that players don't seem to see many moves made on this cosmic keyboard, the game might as well be somewhat more disjointed than chess game. Seems the end goal might even elude potential/supposed allies, like in case of Mythal and Fen'Harel... And even if the ultimate goal might be the same, we're yet to find out if they actually agree on the road taken to it.

 

 

Well, in case of the Herald, it *could* be that all potential candidates were at or near Temple of Sacred Ashes.... but how is it that only ONE person found out about Corypheus secret ritual? It's especially baffling in case we pick races other than humans, especially Dalish or dwarven 'spies' - how come they had access to what looks to be the middle section of the Temple???

 

It's kinda hard to accept that they might have, dunno: lost their way while searching for restroom?

 

Although that... would actually be pretty hilarious XD

 

 

Well, they might do so yet, be it in more substantial DLC or DA4.

 

------

 

Anyhoo... more speculation!

 

I was kinda wondering about this bit from Havard's apocalyptic vision:

 

"And I looked up and saw

The seven gates of the Black City shatter,

And darkness cloaked both realms."

 

Aside from those things seemingly being a vague reference to "Seven Seals" from Biblical Book of Revelations, I was wondering... what if each uncorrupted Old God is actually a guardian or sort of metaphorical 'gate' into Black City proper?

 

In fact, why do we keep assuming that whispers of Old Gods that led magisters to do what they did actually come from these buried dragons? Even a codex on Old Gods from DAO claims that the names of Old Gods have been assigned to those dragons after years of fierce debate between scholars, so... huh.

 

Okay, I've been drinking, and I'm about to continue drinking...that being said...

I would love it if an Old God were a guardian of a metaphorical gate...

If I were Bioware, I'd have people on payroll just paid to troll sites and steal really good ideas...

Yeah, probably not worth a high salary when people (will and do) troll for free.  Professional trolling...DA:I time for the nightmare play through.  

[leaguer of one]

Okay, I've been drinking, and I'm about to continue drinking...that being said...

I would love it if an Old God were a guardian of a metaphorical gate...

If I were Bioware, I'd have people on payroll just paid to troll sites and steal really good ideas...

Yeah, probably not worth a high salary when people (will and do) troll for free.  Professional trolling...DA:I time for the nightmare play through.  

Or even more so they were there to seal Draconis/The sun.

[FemShem]

Or even more so they were there to seal Draconis/The sun.

 

Wait.  Is that in DA lore or cannon? or in reference to something else?

[leaguer of one]

Wait.  Is that in DA lore or cannon? or in reference to something else?

there's a theory that there is an 8th old god Named Draconis...and (if it's an elven connection) he was called the sun in elven lore. It's states he  burn the land out of spite and Elgar'nan took him down and sealed him in the abyss.

[midnight tea]

What you don't mention is that this entity was supposedly Elgar'nan's father (one of Elgar'nan's titles is He Who Overthrew His Father) and that the myth itself mentions also his mother - the land.

 

I'd say that more than a mysterious 8th god (which one was Fen'Harel then? 9th?), this story suggests that there might have been a possible earlier generation of gods - sort of like in many European or Mesopotamian myths. In fact, there are many things about ancient elven lore that reminds me of Greek mythology. 

And in Greek myths gods weren't eternal - each generation of new gods replaced the one that existed before: Zeus and his ilk defeated Cronus, who himself cast down his father, Uranus.

 

Might be that in Thedas we'll see similar conflict between generations of godly figures, each replacing another - possibly after some sort of massive conflict, perhaps similar to Titanomachy.