402 réponses à ce sujet

[Ariella]

Christ.....

Do I have the spell it out for you?

Who do you think Morrigan learn the ritual from. she flat out tells you she learnt it Flemeth. it was the entire reason Flemeth  had Morrigan join the quest.

What you think it means if someone older then the tevintor beliefs and the maker knows how to put an old god in a child?

 

Sorry, but there is a huge elven connection to the old gods. And with use learning what a god is in dai and jaws of hakkon, it's clear the old gods are elven.

 

Of course, Solas himself says at Skyhold when discussing Corypheus that there is nothing connecting the Old Gods and his people.

 

Edit: "Nothing in any lore connects my people to the old god dragons who became archdemons" is the exact quote on querying about the orb after reaching Skyhold.

[dawnstone]

I love this theory and would totally buy it, if I didn't also think there was a good case for Andruil being stuck behind an eluvian by Solas, and still dealing with a raging Red Lyruim infection. He hasn't let them out to our knowledge, although, between Briala and Morrigan going around knocking on eluvians, there's a chance that one of them could have accidentally released one or more gods, or their wisp if they happened to die behind the eluvian. Food for thought, or tinfoil for the hat, you decide.

[leaguer of one]

Of course, Solas himself says at Skyhold when discussing Corypheus that there is nothing connecting the Old Gods and his people.

 

Edit: "Nothing in any lore connects my people to the old god dragons who became archdemons" is the exact quote on querying about the orb after reaching Skyhold.

You do understand that statement was used to miss direct you. He just says there no records connecting them, not that they aren't connected. Learn some lawyer speak.

[leaguer of one]

1. I'm sorry, but cherry-picking and applying elements of real, physical theories to the high fantasy world is nothing more than exercise in futility. Thedas itself might resemble our world to the point that physical phenomenons work very similar to how they do in ours, but that doesn't mean that you can explain it all (including the existence of realm powered and shaped by will of sentient creatures) by either wave, string or quantum theory.

 

I'd ALSO like to point out that these, as well as many other physical theories or calculations have been mangled and cherry-picked to "prove" anything at this point - from existence of invisible, pink unicorns to Space Jews from Mars.

 

2. Why do I have to try again? Everybody here heard Morrigan say "This is not the Fade, but it's very close".
 

 

 

How is a roughly "S" shaped flame (which is also of different color) in any way similar to a straight line across Inquisitor's palm? Now, this is BEYOND grasping at straws now.

 

Quick lesson on symbolism in Western art: figures carrying flame (or light, be it in form of a flame or say torch or lantern) usually symbolize a person carrying the light of knowledge, which is perfectly consistent both with Solas' personality and role, as well as tarot card picked for him (The Hermit).

 

If anything, the fire symbolizes subtle, thematic connection to one of the most famous - as well as tragic - European tricksters: Prometheus, the benefactor of mortals, who saved them from wrath of gods and subsequent destruction, most famous (or infamous, depending on perspective) for bringing fire back to humanity - an act for which he suffered severe consequences.

1. But our laws a physical laws and theories work in the setting. it can be applied. The way the fade works is that it intangible. That a dimension.

2.And then she goes on to say it's easier to get to the fade from there. It not a case of similarity.

[midnight tea]

1. But our laws a physical laws and theories work in the setting. it can be applied. The way the fade works is that it intangible. That a dimension.

2.And then she goes on to say it's easier to get to the fade from there. It not a case of similarity.

 

1. If they are used indiscriminately, they an be applied to virtually EVERYTHING. I did mention Space Jews, didn't I?

Also - calling something a 'dimension' is getting us nowhere. At this points it's hard to follow what you're really trying to say here.

Also, the Fade - intangible? Are you sure it's DAI you're talking about? Or maybe I just imagined the moments like the one where Solas says that the Fade "bleeds into this place" (talking about visions from Fade prior to first closing of the Breach)? What about demons and spirits materialized in Thedas? What about future in Redcliffe?

 

Or what about the fact that Fade 'sticks to mages' and all the lightning and fire they're using is basically fade 'forced into shapes' (as Cole put it)? What about the Anchor itself, which doesn't just open or closes rifts, but - if used with Rift Mage specialization - 'pulls the essence of Fade itself', according to both Solas and Cole?

 

How is it intangible, when it has tangible effects on the world - not just minds of people?
 

 

2. Of course she'd say that - it should be a no-brainer that it would be easier to go into the Fade from realms closer in similarity to Fade itself - or at least with more frail (or simpler) barriers than the Veil that separate the realm from the Fade

[robertthebard]

You do understand that statement was used to miss direct you. He just says there no records connecting them, not that they aren't connected. Learn some lawyer speak.

There's another expression that applies: Confirmation Bias. Because you want to believe it to be true, nothing anyone says can't be rationalized away.

[leaguer of one]

1. If they are used indiscriminately, they an be applied to virtually EVERYTHING. I did mention Space Jews, didn't I?

Also - calling something a 'dimension' is getting us nowhere. At this points it's hard to follow what you're really trying to say here.

Also, the Fade - intangible? Are you sure it's DAI you're talking about? Or maybe I just imagined the moments like the one where Solas says that the Fade "bleeds into this place" (talking about visions from Fade prior to first closing of the Breach)? What about demons and spirits materialized in Thedas? What about future in Redcliffe?

 

Or what about the fact that Fade 'sticks to mages' and all the lightning and fire they're using is basically fade 'forced into shapes' (as Cole put it)? What about the Anchor itself, which doesn't just open or closes rifts, but - if used with Rift Mage specialization - 'pulls the essence of Fade itself', according to both Solas and Cole?

 

How is it intangible, when it has tangible effects on the world - not just minds of people?
 

 

2. Of course she'd say that - it should be a no-brainer that it would be easier to go into the Fade from realms closer in similarity to Fade itself - or at least with more frail (or simpler) barriers than the Veil that separate the realm from the Fade

1.Note that the fade is not left in thedus when the breach is close.  I'm also saying it's intangible because the fade can open up anywhere in thedus. That's not how bubbles and pockets work. Nothing leaks in the center of the bubble away from it outer walls...And with all thes small breaches every were it can only be like that if it's intangible. If thedus was a pocket in the fade then all the fade breaches would be in the sky.

 

2. Again, nothing she says give the meaning of similarity or implied as similarity. it's proximity.

[leaguer of one]

There's another expression that applies: Confirmation Bias. Because you want to believe it to be true, nothing anyone says can't be rationalized away.

You do understand your talking to the dread wolf and Solas has been miss directing you and omitting things the entire time? Sorry, but what he said is clearly lawyer speak.

[midnight tea]

There's another expression that applies: Confirmation Bias. Because you want to believe it to be true, nothing anyone says can't be rationalized away.

 

I agree... But in this particular example, he actually does have a point. A lot of what Solas says has to be either taken with a grain of salt or double-checked - not because he's a straightforward liar, but because he either uses evasion or rhetorical tricks to dodge a bullet.

[robertthebard]

You do understand your talking to the dread wolf and Solas has been miss directing you and omitting things the entire time? Sorry, but what he said is clearly lawyer speak.

I agree... But in this particular example, he actually does have a point. A lot of what Solas says has to be either taken with a grain of salt or double-checked - not because he's a straightforward liar, but because he either uses evasion or rhetorical tricks to dodge a bullet.

While possible, it's also likely that we can take him at face value on this. Why? Because what have we ever seen, anywhere, that would suggest we should suspect him of bending the truth? Nothing in any of the codex entries I've read since Origins has ever made me think "hmm, maybe the Elven Gods and the Old Gods are one and the same". In fact, I'm more of the opinion that the Elven Gods aren't even Gods in the literal sense, but Spirits. I do have plenty of evidence to support this: Justice in Awakening/DA 2, and every case of Demon possession we've seen in the first two games, based entirely on what we learn about Flemeth being Mythal.

[midnight tea]

1.Note that the fade is not left in thedus when the breach is close.  I'm also saying it's intangible because the fade can open up anywhere in thedus. That's not how bubbles and pockets work. Nothing leaks in the center of the bubble away from it outer walls...And with all thes small breaches every were it can only be like that if it's intangible. If thedus was a pocket in the fade then all the fade breaches would be in the sky.

 

2. Again, nothing she says give the meaning of similarity or implied as similarity. it's proximity.

 

It actually IS left in Thedas - we even have specific War Table missions dealing with requests from Helisima (Skyhold creature researcher), after completion of which she notices many changes in areas where we have closed rifts.

 

You're also completely omitting what I've said about mages. Or demons and spirits on Thedas' side. Those are not minor details you can just ignore.

 

 

If thedus was a pocket in the fade then all the fade breaches would be in the sky.

 

Sorry, but... WHAT? What kind of weird logic you're operating here? Or did you fail to note that I said in one of my earlier comment that Thedas is immersed in Fade itself (comment #128)???? None of it implies that rirfts should be only in the sky.

 

 

2. Again, nothing she says give the meaning of similarity or implied as similarity. it's proximity.

 

.... And you're saying that, when the primary reason for existence of eluvians and Crossroads is to erase proximity or meaning of the distance???

 

Also - how CLOSE to the Fade in terms of proximity is the Anchor then - the key to opening and closing rifts, huh? Don't forget that Corypheus created specifically to cross into the Fade. The only reason he goes after eluvian (according to Morrigan) is because for some reason he fails to duplicate it.

[leaguer of one]

While possible, it's also likely that we can take him at face value on this. Why? Because what have we ever seen, anywhere, that would suggest we should suspect him of bending the truth? Nothing in any of the codex entries I've read since Origins has ever made me think "hmm, maybe the Elven Gods and the Old Gods are one and the same". In fact, I'm more of the opinion that the Elven Gods aren't even Gods in the literal sense, but Spirits. I do have plenty of evidence to support this: Justice in Awakening/DA 2, and every case of Demon possession we've seen in the first two games, based entirely on what we learn about Flemeth being Mythal.

Listen. Take the time to look into detail in what he is saying. He says there is no "lore" connection. That's a big detail because he is only specifying to the lore. When he usually dismiss thing he does do directly about the thing he is dismissing not the things related to it. People use this tactic to misdirect people on information. The fact he is specifically pointing at the lore means that he is trying to misdirect us from the truth. This is the dread wolf, it's what he does  and he does this for the entire game.

 

Add there is a reason why the elve lore has no statment about the old gods...It's because the elves named them something completely different.

 

And yes we already know the elven gods are spirits, Mythal and solas told this to us. In fact the elven gods are just dreamers bounded to a powerful spirit.

[robertthebard]

Listen. Take the time to look into detail in what he is saying. He says there is no "lore" connection. That's a big detail because he is only specifying to the lore. When he usually dismiss thing he does do directly about the thing he is dismissing not the things related to it. People use this tactic to misdirect people on information. The fact he is specifically pointing at the lore means that he is trying to misdirect us from the truth. This is the dread wolf, it's what he does  and he does this for the entire game.
 
Add there is a reason why the elve lore has no statment about the old gods...It's because the elves named them something completely different.
 
And yes we already know the elven gods are spirits, Mythal and solas told this to us. In fact the elven gods are just dreamers bounded to a powerful spirit.

Listen. Take the time to learn what confirmation bias means. As I said in my previous post, nothing anyone says can't be readily dismissed. Now, instead of arguing what you think it means, point me to some codex entries. Point me to something more than "but Solas is probably lying".

[midnight tea]

While possible, it's also likely that we can take him at face value on this. Why? Because what have we ever seen, anywhere, that would suggest we should suspect him of bending the truth? Nothing in any of the codex entries I've read since Origins has ever made me think "hmm, maybe the Elven Gods and the Old Gods are one and the same". In fact, I'm more of the opinion that the Elven Gods aren't even Gods in the literal sense, but Spirits. I do have plenty of evidence to support this: Justice in Awakening/DA 2, and every case of Demon possession we've seen in the first two games, based entirely on what we learn about Flemeth being Mythal.

 

The question of whether they're gods or spirits is separate from whether Old Gods and Elven gods are one and the same. I also don't think they are the same - at least in a sense that hey were both the same entities.  But the Fade scene with Flemeth/Mythal seems to suggest that at their core they're something remarkably similar, though it's yet to be revealed if they're connected in any sort of deeper sense.

 

Let's not forget after all, that there were other gods (or "gods") mentioned both in elven lore or worshiped by Avvar, for example.

 

Also, it's funny how in threads like those arguing that Old Gods = Elven gods, the existence of Forgotten Ones is so easily... forgotten. Huh, I suppose they live up to their name xD

[leaguer of one]

It actually IS left in Thedas - we even have specific War Table missions dealing with requests from Helisima (Skyhold creature researcher), after completion of which she notices many changes in areas where we have closed rifts.

 

You're also completely omitting what I've said about mages. Or demons and spirits on Thedas' side. Those are not minor details you can just ignore.

 

 

 

Sorry, but... WHAT? What kind of weird logic you're operating here? Or did you fail to note that I said in one of my earlier comment that Thedas is immersed in Fade itself (comment #128)???? None of it implies that rirfts should be only in the sky.

 

 

 

.... And you're saying that, when the primary reason for eluvians and Crossroads is to erase proximity or meaning of the distance???

 

Also - how CLOSE to the Fade in terms of proximity is the Anchor then - the key to opening and closing rifts, huh? Don't forget that Corypheus created specifically to cross into the Fade. The only reason he goes after eluvian (according to Morrigan) is because for some reason he fails to duplicate it.

1. Nope, it's just the veil is thin now. Yes it has an effect on the world but it always has an effect in the world.  And your mage, foci point does not negate what I said. Mages arn't leaking the fade into the world, they are anchor points. they are point of concentration for the fade as well is the foci. That does not mean the fade is not intangible. thedus is a strainer of the fade and mages are funnels.

 

2.Did you miss my statement saying the Thedus is a strainer and the fade is water going through it?

 

3.The anchor does not need proximity. it's a funnel of power. it breaches the  fade because it can concentration it. like how gravity can warp space, time and light.

And the crossroad does exactly what you just stated.The entire point is to reduce proximity. Remember,  a mage quis makes a not the place they are in feels like it's slowly being swallowed up. 

[leaguer of one]

Listen. Take the time to learn what confirmation bias means. As I said in my previous post, nothing anyone says can't be readily dismissed. Now, instead of arguing what you think it means, point me to some codex entries. Point me to something more than "but Solas is probably lying".

1. I never said Solas was lying.

2.I said he was misdirecting which is what he does.

3. I also state for you to look into the litualy mean of what he said , which you still did not. in which he was only imly about lore.

4. And there is no Lore that connects the old gods to the elves...Which was Solas' point....There is no lore connecting the old gods to the elves.Which is what he said.

5. That does not mean the old gods are not connect to the elve.

6. and you're also missing the face we have an elven god manipulation and old god in the game....Which she would have to know of the old god and  found a way manipulating first before she could of done that.and the only time she could of done that was before she was killed the first time...which happen in the time of ancient elves. and she can't of done it after the first blight because she was not around for the first and second. and the third and fouth blight we have full confirmation the old gods were killed.

[leaguer of one]

 

 

Also, it's funny how in threads like those arguing that Old Gods = Elven gods, the existence of Forgotten Ones is so easily... forgotten. Huh, I suppose they live up to their name xD

We already have hints to who the forgotten ones are. the elven gods had a civil war and the god were divided as such.

[midnight tea]

1. Nope, it's just the veil is thin now. Yes it has an effect on the world but it always has an effect in the world.  And your mage, foci point does not negate what I said. Mages arn't leaking the fade into the world, they are anchor points. they are point of concentration for the fade as well is the foci. That does not mean the fade is not intangible. thedus is a strainer of the fade and mages are funnels.

 

...Honey, I think you have to start paying attention what you're saying and what words mean. Saying that something has "an effect on the world" is mutually exclusive with intangible. You can't tiptoe around it or bend it to what you want - either the Fade has an effect on the world or it doesn't. End of story.

 

Also - saying that mages are the foci or point of concentration changes nothing - so does saying that they're "anchor points" instead of "leaking fade". Either way the Fade finds itself into the world and has palpable, physical effects on it.

 

 

2.Did you miss my statement saying the Thedus is a strainer and the fade is water going through it?

 

.... And how does that negate anything I said? 

 

 

3.The anchor does not need proximity. it's a funnel of power. it breaches the  fade because it can concentration it. like how gravity can warp space, time and light.

And the crossroad does exactly what you just stated.The entire point is to reduce proximity. Remember,  a mage quis makes a not the place they are in feels like it's slowly being swallowed up. 

 

...So Fade works like gravity now? You realize that at this point you're talking of the fade as if it's one of fundamental forces of cosmos, rather than dimension? Also, wait.... so it breaches INTANGIBLE Fade to make a tangible rift?

 

Also - if the entire point of Crossroads is to reduce or modify proximity, then concepts like 'proximity' of Crossroads to the Fade becomes meaningless.

[midnight tea]

We already have hints to who the forgotten ones are. the elven gods had a civil war and the god were divided as such.

 

 

 

Yet, at least in lore, it is established that those gods were not exactly what other elven gods were. Remember when one of Fen'Harel codexes mentions that (I paraphrase): "He was one of kin to Creators (elven gods), but Forgotten ones treated him as one of their own."?

 

This is exactly why I said much earlier that there are many shades of blue. There's a complexity (and implied variety) to those creatures that is yet to be revealed.

 

EVEN Solas says at one point (after drinking from the Well) that creatures like elven gods might be "Mages, or spirits, or something we've not yet seen".

 

Also - what about Hakkon?

[leaguer of one]

...Honey, I think you have to start paying attention what you're saying and what words mean. Saying that something has "an effect on the world" is mutually exclusive with intangible. You can't tiptoe around it or bend it to what you want - either the Fade has an effect on the world or it doesn't. End of story.

 

Also - saying that mages are the foci or point of concentration changes nothing - so does saying that they're "anchor points" instead of "leaking fade". Either way the Fade finds itself into the world and has palpable, physical effects on it.

 

 

 

.... And how does that negate anything I said? 

 

 

 

...So Fade works like gravity now? You realize that at this point you're talking of the fade as if it's one of fundamental forces of cosmos, rather than dimension? Also, wait.... so it breaches INTANGIBLE Fade to make a tangible rift?

 

Also - if the entire point of Crossroads is to reduce or modify proximity, then concepts like 'proximity' of Crossroads to the Fade becomes meaningless.

1. Intangibility does not mean no effect what so ever. Let level he and agree the the fade effect Thedus.(it obvious of course). You're saying it leaks in, I'm saying it passes through and leaves some of itself behind in our world. The issue with you "leak" theory is the the fade can leak form anywhere which is  a counter point to the leak theory. How is there a wall holding it back at every point is exsistance of thedus? Why would it leak at the center of the bubble if the world of thedus is a pocket in the fade? that makes not sense. My "strainer" theory has a better accountability for that. it's not that the fade is just kept out, it passing through everything and only some of it is passing into the world. This make more sense with something that can pop open any where in the world. It's basically like gravity via dark energy.

 

2.I'm clarifying what i mean. it did not seem like you got it.

 

3. more dark energy then gravity but that basically is the same thing. and in thedus case it would be at that same level. And yes gravity can go away. that literally how  galaxies die. but not saying it would kill thedus if it's gone. Also, what i'm saying is something is not allowing thedus to touch the fade or most of it. it just passing through. the breach is just that line going away or the strainer get clogged up

[leaguer of one]

Yet, at least in lore, it is established that those gods were not exactly what other elven gods were. Remember when one of Fen'Harel codexes mentions that (I paraphrase): "He was one of kin to Creators (elven gods), but Forgotten ones treated him as one of their own."?

 

This is exactly why I said much earlier that there are many shades of blue. There's a complexity (and implied variety) to those creatures that is yet to be revealed.

 

EVEN Solas says at one point (after drinking from the Well) that creatures like elven gods might be "Mages, or spirits, or something we've not yet seen".

 

Also - what about Hakkon?

And that can be lamp-shaded to just being sides.

 

Also not the elven gods can turn into dragons...aka Mythal.

[In Exile]

I'm sorry but no...... The devs go in detail with the lore of the story and could use differnet designs for the card if they wanted...note that card is her friend ship card. not the normal one she starts with. They used this design to make a point...

 

Like this...

 

I'm not sure one crackpot theory proves another. There are quite a few holes in the Solas = Shartan theory. 

[In Exile]

Of course, Solas himself says at Skyhold when discussing Corypheus that there is nothing connecting the Old Gods and his people.

 

Edit: "Nothing in any lore connects my people to the old god dragons who became archdemons" is the exact quote on querying about the orb after reaching Skyhold.

 

Note exactly what he says - "there is nothing in any lore that..." 

 

It's a dodge. He's not lying to you if he says "No one theorized that the elves are not connected to the Old Gods." No one's theorized it. 

[Reznore57]

Note exactly what he says - "there is nothing in any lore that..." 

 

It's a dodge. He's not lying to you if he says "No one theorized that the elves are not connected to the Old Gods." No one's theorized it. 

 

Yeah he says "In the lore" but that's a bit of bulls**.

We have Flemythal saving Urthemiel.

And Solas is distressed about the wardens slaying the Archdemons.

So at the very least the Elven Gods knew what the Old Gods are exactly.

[ModernAcademic]

I'm guessing the Elven Gods were immortal because they shared their souls with dragons.

Slay the dragons (Old Gods/Archdemons) and you put an end to their immortality.

 

Solas could lose his Godhood status because of that. And the rest of the Elven Pantheon trapped in the Beyond.