I'm not sure one crackpot theory proves another. There are quite a few holes in the Solas = Shartan theory.
Being that it's been shown time and time again that the info of what actually happen can easily be warped by time, i would say those hole many not have much validation.
1. Intangibility does not mean no effect what so ever. Let level he and agree the the fade effect Thedus.(it obvious of course). You're saying it leaks in, I'm saying it passes through and leaves some of itself behind in our world. The issue with you "leak" theory is the the fade can leak form anywhere which is a counter point to the leak theory. How is there a wall holding it back at every point is exsistance of thedus? Why would it leak at the center of the bubble if the world of thedus is a pocket in the fade? that makes not sense. My "strainer" theory has a better accountability for that. it's not that the fade is just kept out, it passing through everything and only some of it is passing into the world. This make more sense with something that can pop open any where in the world. It's basically like gravity via dark energy.
2.I'm clarifying what i mean. it did not seem like you got it.
3. more dark energy then gravity but that basically is the same thing. and in thedus case it would be at that same level. And yes gravity can go away. that literally how galaxies die. but not saying it would kill thedus if it's gone. Also, what i'm saying is something is not allowing thedus to touch the fade or most of it. it just passing through. the breach is just that line going away or the strainer get clogged up
1. "Intangible" -> http://dictionary.re...owse/intangible
I'm sorry, but if you're changing or expanding even the meaning of well-established words, it means that your theory is not just full of holes - it's one gigantic hole full of random ideas held together by a sheer force of (your) will. I've stuck to this thread trying to understand at least a bit of it, but so far sense hasn't re-established itself in any palpable measure.
Also... "Leak theory"? ...I'm sorry, WHAT? It seems to me like you're not really reading very carefully what people are writing to you and then you're creating these weird, misleading responses that pull us farther and farther away from any coherent line of thinking.
Why are you assuming I am speaking of any sort of bubble? I never said anything that could even give you an idea of a bubble! Yet you're there, questioning this weird thing I've NEVER said.
If that isn't a book case example of a strawman, then I don't know what is.
2. At this point I doubt you got anything I've written to you. Good Lord...
3. Sweetheart, we don't even know what dark energy is at this point IRL (we have pointers, but we''re not even close to full understanding), and you want to apply this theoretical concept to Thedas???? Also - you're talking about forces of nature and not dimensions now. See how you're flip-flopping, going from one concept to another?
And one more thing - gravity is very much a natural phenomenon that belongs to physical world and it permeates it entirely (so is dark energy, if it actually exists the way we think it does). It's hard to think of any force that could be more TANGIBLE.
Being that it's been shown time and time again that the info of what actually happen can easily be warped by time, i would say those hole many not have much validation.
If evidence AGAINST theory could have been warped by time, so is evidence used to support it. And if this is the strongest argument in defense of that theory, then it really is weak.
I'm guessing the Elven Gods were immortal because they shared their souls with dragons.
Slay the dragons (Old Gods/Archdemons) and you put an end to their immortality.
Solas could lose his Godhood status because of that. And the rest of the Elven Pantheon trapped in the Beyond.
Well, in case of Corypheus, it only *disrupted* his immortality, it didn't remove it.
Plus - didn't Flemeth keep part of her soul in a pendant or something? And the dragon we fight in case Inquisitors drink from the Well - isn't that Mythal's dragon? She was slain, yet her dragon remains?
And in Jaws of Hakkon we saw that slaying Hakkon didn't put an end to his soul. Avvar are also convinced that he shall be reborn - as he did, apparently, many times before.
In other words... while I think there are certainly connections with dragons, I don't think they're the source of immortality of Elven Gods (and what about the immortality of ancient elves?).
Also... who said that Solas didn't lose his godhood status at one point of another? If Ghilan'nain could have been raised to godhood, then maybe godhood can be discarded as well? ...Maybe that's what saved him from the fate of other gods?
Yeah he says "In the lore" but that's a bit of bulls**.
We have Flemythal saving Urthemiel.
And Solas is distressed about the wardens slaying the Archdemons.
So at the very least the Elven Gods knew what the Old Gods are exactly.
Honestly, I think Flemeth caring about Urthemiel indicates the Old Gods aren't part of the Pantheon. From Mythal's scene in the Eluvian Fade, she's upset about being killed/betrayed, and honestly, if it was not Fen'Harel, it was probably an Elven God that stabbed her in the back. So maybe Flemeth is super compassionate and forgiving, or Urthemiel was one of the Pantheon she was chill with, or, more likely considering the comics, the betrayal of the World and Mythal has something to do with the imprisoning of the Old Gods/Decline of Dragons/Veil, not necessarily the absence of the Elven Gods as that seems to be Solas' work, and Abelas/ the Temple of Mythals seems to suggest Fen'Harel and Mythal were on the same side.
Another thing. Best evidence suggests the Elven Pantheon is trapped behind an Eluvian (Cole) and/or in the Black City (the Dalish, and Corypheus still associating it with divinity). If that is where they are imprisoned, why the hell would entering the Black City start a process of waking up dragon gods underneath the Deep Roads? Another thing, unless all Old God souls have been saved, when Cole mentions the trapped faces behind mirrors and other things associated with him speaking about the Pantheon, he does not mention some being destroyed or free or whatever. They are still where Solas left them, presumably.
We know the Black City is as much in the Fade as outside the Fade, as no dreamer has ever entered it, and no spirit/demon. The only known way to get into the Black City is to enter physically into the Fade, implying that the Black City is a physical place trapped in the Fade. We are told the Old Gods are asleep, that they dream, that they had been seen/heard by Tevinter for a long, long time before they breached the Golden City. Where as the Elven Gods have been silent/completely absent. It seems likely that the Elven Gods are trapped in a place where they can not access mortals through dreams, where as whatever the Old Gods are, they are free to access the Fade. Sounds to me like the Elven Pantheon and Old Gods are possibly not the same thing.
I'm guessing the Elven Gods were immortal because they shared their souls with dragons.
Slay the dragons (Old Gods/Archdemons) and you put an end to their immortality.
Solas could lose his Godhood status because of that. And the rest of the Elven Pantheon trapped in the Beyond.
.I think we're missing a big part of history when it comes to the dragons/elves and dwarves.
In the comics "The Silent Grove" Flemythal 's daughter talks about a time when dragons ruled the sky.
In the Hissing Wastes , you learn the dwarves who build the surface thaig were scared of dragons , it seems it was something passed down through generations , they put dragons symbols on their weapons.(It's possible the dwarves went underground because they were getting roasted.)
Now it doesn't seem like the elves were scared of the beasts , they respected the dragon form , but Mythal had pets dragons guarding her altar , Mythal Daughter know some language to communicate with her pet dragon.
Also well the whole shapeshifting in dragons.
I think at one point , something happened with those dragons who were ruling , now it could be war , maybe they tamed them ...I don't know.
I see this place is still going strong, eh? Ya'll are bonkers. Fun, though! ;D
@ Starare: Buut, at the same time, if Mythal is aware of who betrayed her, and it was not Urthemiel (Ghilan'nain?), why wouldn't she wish to save their soul? especially if they were similar to a big family at some point, and she the all-mother?
Really, I find it interesting the gods seemed to avoid slaying one another. They got into numerous fights. Mythal's battle with Andruil, having to confront Falon'din in his own temple to stop his war efforts, etc, etc. Even whatever Solas did, no one perished. Makes Mythal's murder all the more... shocking? Although... she survived murder, no? If Elvhen Gods/Old Gods remainifest in the Fade, for instance, they are pretty unkillable. Maybe she wanted the sould so she could keep an eye on it herself?
Basically, I can see it working out. xD
Other than that, good points!
Buut, at the same time, if Mythal is aware of who betrayed her, and it was not Urthemiel (Ghilan'nain?), why wouldn't she wish to save their soul?
We don't know her exact reasons - and there may be many, but not all of them necessarily have to be pure. Maybe she needs Uthremiel's power (we see Kieran initially transferring the same kind of blue'ish wisps of power that later engulf Solas when he steals Mythal's power) or maybe she needs some kind of knowledge Uthremiel has? We do know that knowledge/and memory means a lot in Thedas - or at least in the Fade. And it seems it can be transferred, swapped, erased or even stolen - just like Nightmare stole memories of Inquisitor or Mythal has stolen Andruil's knowledge of how to enter the Void.
Also - why do I have the feeling that Mythal stealing Andruil's knowledge was the reason (or one of reasons) of her downfall?
That too. Basically, I have trouble trying to pin down what Mythal would or wouldn't do quite yet. We don't really know what's going through her head... ever. XD She's an enigma, that one. As for Andruil, I certainly wouldn't be surprised. Andruil's near the top of my Mythal-murder suspect list, anyway. xD For a whole variety of reasons.
Being that it's been shown time and time again that the info of what actually happen can easily be warped by time, i would say those hole many not have much validation.
I just mean that it's very inconsistent with Solas's current personality and his view of the elves.
I just mean that it's very inconsistent with Solas's current personality and his view of the elves.
wait what?
How he is now does not mean he was like that then. Remember the Solas we mean now is tired of trying to save the elves of now...But he has to try to help the elven of this time first to be tired of it.
If evidence AGAINST theory could have been warped by time, so is evidence used to support it. And if this is the strongest argument in defense of that theory, then it really is weak.
Except that we are seeing more and more hints that Andraste's campaign was not what it really stated to be in history...Added that Andraste was born the same year Dumat was put down.
That too. Basically, I have trouble trying to pin down what Mythal would or wouldn't do quite yet. We don't really know what's going through her head... ever. XD She's an enigma, that one. As for Andruil, I certainly wouldn't be surprised. Andruil's near the top of my Mythal-murder suspect list, anyway. xD For a whole variety of reasons.
Except that we are seeing more and more hints that Andraste's campaign was not what it really stated to be in history...Added that Andraste was born the same year Dumat was put down.
So? It doesn't validate "Solas is Shartan" theory at all.
wait what?
How he is now does not mean he was like that then. Remember the Solas we mean now is tired of trying to save the elves of now...But he has to try to help the elven of this time first to be tired of it.
He said he's tired of fighting in general. Also, it's been established already that ancient elves were warring with each other and it IS implied that he's ancient god of rebellion - so he fought in wars long before Andraste was ever born.
To be fair, if Flemeth effects the Well or can speak through it, she's probably learned a thing or two about archdemons and the blight over the years. She certainly knew how to save Urthemiel's soul, after all. So that could be the connection? Alternatively, if Corypheus learned the dragon soul stuff from the orb, it would have been Elvhen Pantheon knowledge to begin with.
Her having access to the orb, though... now wouldn't that be something? I have a feeling Flemeth might just have a finger in every pie, here. Should be interesting.
Personally, I think Solas may not have accounted for the body-jumping. XD An idea which amuses me rather more than it probably should.
Midnight_tea when you ask Flemythal : "Do you know what we're up against".
She says "more than you can possibly imagine."
O' really? Because a Tainted Magister who wants to be a God ...well it's not something you see everyday.
Anyway I'm pretty sure Flemythal and the Blight have an history.
When she says "as the world was betrayed argh!" ...I'm thinking Blight.
I think the elves managed to contain the Blight in the Golden City somehow ...also the taint in there is different ...Corypheus and co didn't just turn into ghouls and died (that's what happens to humans in Thedas).
So? It doesn't validate "Solas is Shartan" theory at all.
He said he's tired of fighting in general. Also, it's been established already that ancient elves were warring with each other and it IS implied that he's ancient god of rebellion - so he fought in wars long before Andraste was ever born.
1. not yet but it's a start. but there othe things that link it...
LIke this paiting with Shartan with what looks to be a Foci.
2.And in the source code it's stated he was asleep for 1000 years....
To be fair, if Flemeth effects the Well or can speak through it, she's probably learned a thing or two about archdemons and the blight over the years. She certainly knew how to save Urthemiel's soul, after all. So that could be the connection? Alternatively, if Corypheus learned the dragon soul stuff from the orb, it would have been Elvhen Pantheon knowledge to begin with.
Her having access to the orb, though... now wouldn't that be something? I have a feeling Flemeth might just have a finger in every pie, here. Should be interesting.
Personally, I think Solas may not have accounted for the body-jumping. XD An idea which amuses me rather more than it probably should.
That's true.
But oh, the dragon soul stuff was certainly from the orb. That's not the issue for me - the issue is apparent resonance of the old elven magic with the blight magic (which is the source of Corypheus immortality it seems, as he was immortal LONG before he got his dragon).
Yup, I can't help but to have a feeling that she has some connection to the orb... Of course, the impression is harder to disperse after learning that in game files the orb is apparently named "elv_orbmythal" (source on wiki: http://dragonage.wik..._of_Destruction )
Also, this:
This is Mythal's mosaic (only hers has tiles that form a circle around the head) at the very last stage of Corypheus fight, right before we defeat him.... WHY is Mythal's mosaic there in the first place?
1. not yet but it's a start. but there othe things that link it...
LIke this paiting with Shartan with what looks to be a Foci.
2.And in the source code it's stated he was asleep for 1000 years....
It's not a Foci , it's the urn with Andraste ashes ...and it's not Shartan , it's Havard.
1. not yet but it's a start. but there othe things that link it...
<snip>
LIke this paiting with Shartan with what looks to be a Foci.
2.And in the source code it's stated he was asleep for 1000 years....
Right, come across this before. xD
Not Shartan. Very obviously Havard. According to the Chantry, by whom these images were presumably created, Shartan was dead at this point in the tale. Havard is carrying the Urn of Sacred Ashes into the Frostbacks. Judging from his ghost in the temple, he was older, bald and wore Chantry robes.
EDIT: Ninja'd. D:
Actually, now that I think of it again - anyone else find the owl motifs on those Chantry banners interesting...? Just me? XD
That's true.
But oh, the dragon soul stuff was certainly from the orb. That's not the issue for me - the issue is apparent resonance of the old elven magic with the blight magic (which is the source of Corypheus immortality it seems, as he was immortal LONG before he got his dragon).
Yup, I can't help but to have a feeling that she has some connection to the orb... Of course, the impression is harder to disperse after learning that in game files the orb is apparently named "elv_orbmythal" (source on wiki: http://dragonage.wik..._of_Destruction )
Also, this:
This is Mythal's mosaic (only hers has tiles that form a circle around the head) at the very last stage of Corypheus fight, right before we defeat him.... WHY is Mythal's mosaic there in the first place?
Well what seems logical is the temple of Sacred Ashes was build on the ruins of an old Elven temple.
Now I don't know why Havard would choose this place.
But anyway it might explain the cult in DAO , and why they thought Andraste was reborn as a dragon...they probably found some statues of Mythal and got confused.
Well what seems logical is the temple of Sacred Ashes was build on the ruins of an old Elven temple.
Now I don't know why Havard would choose this place.
But anyway it might explain the cult in DAO , and why they thought Andraste was reborn as a dragon...they probably found some statues of Mythal and got confused.
Perfectly reasonable... but this is one of those things it doesn't seem contrived to ask questions whether it's supposed to be more symbolic, than logical.
They must have wanted to say something through it, if designers allowed it to survive through chaos (the explosion as well as tearing the ruins of Sacred Ashes further by lifting the ground) and place it at the very last platform where we defeat Cory, so that we have a perfectly preserved Mythal's image in the middle of a platform we fight Corypheus on, surrounded by Red Lyrium rocks, and "gazing" upon the corrupted orb floating right above it?
...Yeah, THIS is the proper way to do visual clues.
Well, in case of Corypheus, it only *disrupted* his immortality, it didn't remove it.
Plus - didn't Flemeth keep part of her soul in a pendant or something? And the dragon we fight in case Inquisitors drink from the Well - isn't that Mythal's dragon? She was slain, yet her dragon remains?
And in Jaws of Hakkon we saw that slaying Hakkon didn't put an end to his soul. Avvar are also convinced that he shall be reborn - as he did, apparently, many times before.
In other words... while I think there are certainly connections with dragons, I don't think they're the source of immortality of Elven Gods (and what about the immortality of ancient elves?).
Also... who said that Solas didn't lose his godhood status at one point of another? If Ghilan'nain could have been raised to godhood, then maybe godhood can be discarded as well? ...Maybe that's what saved him from the fate of other gods?
These are excellent questions. So the source of the Elven Gods' immortality was perhaps not the dragons, but the specific magic used to bind one's soul to other beings (dragons, other animals) and objects (pendant). This is mere speculation of my part, I haven't read this information anywhere.
But then why would Solas be against slaying the dragons? Something is special about them, to the point they are called Gods. This must must have some connection to their unusual power of commanding the darkspawn through the taint. Those dragons are not just mindless beasts...
These are excellent questions. So the source of the Elven Gods' immortality was perhaps not the dragons, but the specific magic used to bind one's soul to other beings (dragons, other animals) and objects (pendant). This is mere speculation of my part, I haven't read this information anywhere.
But then why would Solas be against slaying the dragons? Something is special about them, to the point they are called Gods. This must must have some connection to their unusual power of commanding the darkspawn through the taint. Those dragons are not just mindless beasts...
Well, aside from the fact that killing Old Gods might actually NOT stop the blights... I mean, most of darkspawn are busy fervently digging to where dragons sleep. What happens if they don't hear the Call anymore? What if they shift their full attention on the surface world?
I was also wondering whether those buried dragons contain the very last remains of... well, whatever the Old gods were. In other words there are no pendants, other bodies or things these beings invested part of their soul with - if they're gone, either the Old God is done and dead or their link to Thedas is severed.
Exactly. Killing the archdemons means potentially relinquishing their leash forever. And then what? Darkspawn capable of real stratagem? Something far worse than the archdemons, perhaps?
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