52 réponses à ce sujet

[congokong]

It felt that way for me certainly. DA:O left little doubt Flemeth had intended to take Morrigan over by force.

 

1. Her grimoire gives great detail regarding the body snatching. From studying it Morrigan was certain Flemeth meant to possess her. You'd think there'd be some account about it being voluntary. It's hard to believe she got that wrong.

2. Those robes looted from Flemeth's chest were meant to make Morrigan helpless based on their description.

3. Flemeth's refusal to speak of her origins and other daughters makes perfect sense based on her DA:O intentions, but not if she was Mythal who wouldn't force her spell on Morrigan. Why wouldn't Flemeth have told Morrigan what she said in DA:I; especially if Morrigan had to be willing?

4. Flemeth's lack of motherly affection could be attributed to not wanting to get too attached to someone she'd inevitably possess. If that's not the case then is Flemeth just a bad mother?

5. When you confront Flemeth in DA:O she makes no effort to explain things as she did in DA:I. Instead she tries to get you to trick Morrigan with the possiblity of "surprising" her one day. She's even willing to kill one of the last Ferelden Grey Wardens rather than say "Morrigan has to be willing." And if you bring Morrigan to the hut Flemeth hides rather than clear the air.

 

Obviously this topic is moot if Flemeth was simply lying.

[X Equestris]

I don't think so. Or at least if it was, the retcon happened a while ago. Yavana gave some hints that pointed towards the current state of affairs in the comics, so any retcon happened before that.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 I think she was just a lousy mother. Nothing in DA:O, that I remember, contradicted the idea that Flemeth was not planning a hostile-takeover (I cannot remember what you mentioned in #2). In one of the comics, another one of her daughters calls Flemeth's soul "a gift."

[AresKeith]

It felt that way for me certainly. DA:O left little doubt Flemeth had intended to take Morrigan over by force.

 

1. Her grimoire gives great detail regarding the body snatching. From studying it Morrigan was certain Flemeth meant to possess her. You'd think there'd be some account about it being voluntary. It's hard to believe she got that wrong.

 

It's not that far-fetched for Morrigan to misinterpret things 

[Lethaya]

Twist =/= retcon, necessarily.

 

And assuming this was the intended twist, Bioware would have wanted the playerbase to expect the worst in Flemeth's intentions, no? Anyway, I didn't feel like this was a retcon. I never read the grimoire or saw what was written, I simply took Morrigan's word for it, believed what Morrigan assumed to be true. Morrigan and Flemeth have trust issues, I think. Issues that are not unfounded, whether Flemythal intended to forcefully posses her daughter or not. XD

[TK514]

Morrigan wasn't smart enough to properly understand Flemeth's grimoire, and she rushed it without considering alternate interpretations (like she was willing to rush into the DR, and she was willing to rush into the Well).

 

Flemeth, being absurdly damaged goods (given that both Mythal and Flemeth suffered betrayal) is bad at affection.

[Andromelek]

Dev's notes on the end of DAI said that Flemeth wanted to inherit Mythal's godhood to Morrigan before Solas would come to kill her, what I wonder is why she wanted to give it to Morrigan when she had Yavana (who seemed to be far more powerful, wise and noble than Morrigan)

[Boost32]

Dev's notes on the end of DAI said that Flemeth wanted to inherit Mythal's godhood to Morrigan before Solas would come to kill her, what I wonder is why she wanted to give it to Morrigan when she had Yavana (who seemed to be far more powerful, wise and noble than Morrigan)

Isn't Yavana dead?

[Andromelek]

Isn't Yavana dead?

Unless you killed/exiled Alistair, yes (we still don't know if she had a way to come back or what was of the grove without her) but the point is that Flemeth's plan was give Mythal's soul to Morrigan since the Fifth Blight (nearly a decade before Yavana's death) if she was so desperate to have a heiress she shouldn't waste her time on Morrigan.

[In Exile]

It felt that way for me certainly. DA:O left little doubt Flemeth had intended to take Morrigan over by force.

 

1. Her grimoire gives great detail regarding the body snatching. From studying it Morrigan was certain Flemeth meant to possess her. You'd think there'd be some account about it being voluntary. It's hard to believe she got that wrong.

2. Those robes looted from Flemeth's chest were meant to make Morrigan helpless based on their description.

3. Flemeth's refusal to speak of her origins and other daughters makes perfect sense based on her DA:O intentions, but not if she was Mythal who wouldn't force her spell on Morrigan. Why wouldn't Flemeth have told Morrigan what she said in DA:I; especially if Morrigan had to be willing?

4. Flemeth's lack of motherly affection could be attributed to not wanting to get too attached to someone she'd inevitably possess. If that's not the case then is Flemeth just a bad mother?

5. When you confront Flemeth in DA:O she makes no effort to explain things as she did in DA:I. Instead she tries to get you to trick Morrigan with the possiblity of "surprising" her one day. She's even willing to kill one of the last Ferelden Grey Wardens rather than say "Morrigan has to be willing." And if you bring Morrigan to the hut Flemeth hides rather than clear the air.

 

Obviously this topic is moot if Flemeth was simply lying.

 

I think Bioware was in a bind: they didn't know if DA:O was ever going to get a sequel, so they had to write a satisfying plot that would also give them room to explore all of this other lore. So they had to come up with a plausible cover for this entire story, which they want to develop over a bunch of games. 

 

Flemeth wanted to save Urthemiel in DA:O. That was the whole reason for Morrigan going with you. That plot doesn't make sense if she's just a demon who wants to wear Morrigan as a meatsuit. 

 

Maybe they changed their minds about whether or not Mythal wearing Morrigan like a meatpuppet is a bad thing ™, or Flemeth was lying to soften Morrigan up. 

[congokong]

Flemeth wanted to save Urthemiel in DA:O. That was the whole reason for Morrigan going with you. That plot doesn't make sense if she's just a demon who wants to wear Morrigan as a meatsuit. 

 

Maybe they changed their minds about whether or not Mythal wearing Morrigan like a meatpuppet is a bad thing ™, or Flemeth was lying to soften Morrigan up. 

I'm more questioning if they retconned Flemeth possessing Morrigan forcefully rather than Flemeth's origins.

[Andres Hendrix]

It was not really retconed, Morrigan mentioned it during the conversation in the fade with Kieran and Flemeth, she tells Flemeth to take her body but to leave Kieran alone. When Flemeth sees how much Kirean means to Morrigan, and what Morrigan thought about her own childhood, she takes the soul and leaves Kieran and Morrigan both, promising that she will not control her Daughter's mind. Also in DAO there was the dress that was going to be used to sap Morrigan's will... It could have been that Flemeth's original plan was to body snatch, but afterwords, she came to the decision to give Morrigan her power instead.

[congokong]

It was not really retconed, Morrigan mentioned it during the conversation in the fade with Kieran and Flemeth, she tells Flemeth to take her body but to leave Kieran alone. When Flemeth sees how much Kirean means to Morrigan, and what Morrigan thought about her own childhood, she takes the soul and leaves Kieran and Morrigan both, promising that she will not control her Daughter's mind. Also in DAO there was the dress that was going to be used to sap Morrigan's will... It could have been that Flemeth's original plan was to body snatch, but afterwords, she came to the decision to give Morrigan her power instead.

No, I'm referring to Flemeth's line "A soul is not forced on me unwilling, Morrigan. You were never in danger from me."

[dragonflight288]

No, I'm referring to Flemeth's line "A soul is not forced on me unwilling, Morrigan. You were never in danger from me."

 

The real question is how much do we trust Flemeth to be telling the truth, how much did Morrigan misunderstand, and how much of what we're told in the two games is objectively accurate and not the opinion given by a character. 

[Andres Hendrix]

No, I'm referring to Flemeth's line "A soul is not forced on me unwilling, Morrigan. You were never in danger from me."

Wasn't responding to you, I would have quoted you.

[leaguer of one]

it's very clear........

 

..that the op does know what retconned means.

[leaguer of one]

Isn't Yavana dead?

So was  Lili and Flemeth.

[leaguer of one]

No, I'm referring to Flemeth's line "A soul is not forced on me unwilling, Morrigan. You were never in danger from me."

Do you not get that he means you got the meaning of retcon wrong?

[AtreiyaN7]

Not really, no. As is made clear in DA:I, the Dalish certainly got a whole lot of their history wrong, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if Morrigan misunderstood Flemeth's intentions and what she was studying. Just because you believe something doesn't necessarily make it so, and I think the whole "Flemeth possesses her daughters unwillingly" thing could have been just another misinterpretation a la the Dalish.

 

As for Flemeth not explaining things, when has she ever seemed like someone inclined to share her secrets? She's just not someone who explains herself to lesser mortals unless there's a good reason for it. I expect that she may have had had to change whatever plans she originally had by the time of DA:I, especially since Morrigan ran off. Perhaps she originally thought she'd have time to explain and never expected Morrigan to go into hiding like she did.

[dsl08002]

It was left for interpretation in DAO but im certain like most things in DAI bioware had something else planned in DAO and changed their minds in this game

[congokong]

Wasn't responding to you, I would have quoted you.

Generally on message boards when you're not responding to any particular poster, it's assumed you're responding to the OP. You are aware I made the OP?

[congokong]

it's very clear........

 

..that the op does know what retconned means.

It's very clear... that you don't.

 

/ret'kon/ retroactive continuity.
The common situation in fiction where a new story "reveals" things about events in previous stories, usually leaving the "facts" the same (thus preserving continuity) while completely changing their interpretation. For example, revealing that a whole season of "Dallas" was a dream was a retcon.

[leaguer of one]

It's very clear... that you don't.

 

/ret'kon/ retroactive continuity.
The common situation in fiction where a new story "reveals" things about events in previous stories, usually leaving the "facts" the same (thus preserving continuity) while completely changing their interpretation. For example, revealing that a whole season of "Dallas" was a dream was a retcon.

examples are spider mans marrage, the movie days of furture past and lelianna's death. this is not a retcon...this is a plot twist.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Plot_twist

A plot twist is a radical change in the expected direction or outcome of the plot of a novel, film, television series, comic, video game, or other work of narrative.^[1] It is a common practice in narration used to keep the interest of an audience, usually surprising them with a revelation. Some "twists" are foreshadowed.

[congokong]

examples are spider mans marrage, the movie days of furture past and lelianna's death. this is not a retcon...this is a plot twist.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Plot_twist

A plot twist is a radical change in the expected direction or outcome of the plot of a novel, film, television series, comic, video game, or other work of narrative.^[1] It is a common practice in narration used to keep the interest of an audience, usually surprising them with a revelation. Some "twists" are foreshadowed.

It fits the definition of a retcon if it wasn't Bioware's initial intention. Hence the OP. If you're going to ignore that, then leave the thread. I'm not going to waste further time bickering about semantics with you.

[leaguer of one]

It fits the definition of a retcon. If you're going to ignore that, then leave the thread. I'm not going to waste further time bickering about semantics with you.

the definition of a recton means past event are change to fit with the current story(which is the meaning of the definition you gave). and nothing about Morrigan finding out that Flemeth aimed to use her body was change in past events. What stated is the Morrigan miss understood the meaning which was made clear in silent grove comic. Added i'm not the only one here tell this is not a retcon.

 

http://tvtropes.org/...php/Main/Retcon