During the conversation with Morrigan in Witch Hunt, this is what she says to the Warden-Commander:
I thought I knew what Flemeth planned. I thought what she craved was immortality. And yet I was wrong. So very wrong. She is no blood mage, no abomination... She is not even truly human. The ritual was but a means to an end, a herald for what is to come.
During the conversation with Morrigan in Witch Hunt, this is what she says to the Warden-Commander:
I thought I knew what Flemeth planned. I thought what she craved was immortality. And yet I was wrong. So very wrong. She is no blood mage, no abomination... She is not even truly human. The ritual was but a means to an end, a herald for what is to come.
The funny thing is in DAI ...Morrigan says she had no idea what Flemeth was.
So all her talk about she is not blablabla ...makes little sense.
She also has no idea what the OGB was all about , so I assume had no idea about "what is to come".(actually we still don't know exactly why Flemythal wanted the OGB...)
I guess the plan was during Witch Hunt , Morrigan knew Flemeth was Mythal .
I'm more questioning if they retconned Flemeth possessing Morrigan forcefully rather than Flemeth's origins.
I don't think I was clear. Let me try again. I'm saying two things:
1. DA:O was written to work as a stand-alone title, and I think that's something important to keep in mind when asking whether the creators changed their mind.
2. Flemeth might be lying in DAI. We shouldn't take her at her word.
2. Flemeth might be lying in DAI. We shouldn't take her at her word.
Flemeth is not lying. We know this because we have the voices in Morrigan or the quis to tell us if she's lying or not.
The funny thing is in DAI ...Morrigan says she had no idea what Flemeth was.
So all her talk about she is not blablabla ...makes little sense.
She also has no idea what the OGB was all about , so I assume had no idea about "what is to come".(actually we still don't know exactly why Flemythal wanted the OGB...)
I guess the plan was during Witch Hunt , Morrigan knew Flemeth was Mythal .
Or at least knew she was a lot more than she initially expected but didn't actually know for certain what she was.
Does it actually matter? What's wrong with just enjoying the damn story these days??!!!
Twist =/= retcon, necessarily.
And assuming this was the intended twist, Bioware would have wanted the playerbase to expect the worst in Flemeth's intentions, no? Anyway, I didn't feel like this was a retcon. I never read the grimoire or saw what was written, I simply took Morrigan's word for it, believed what Morrigan assumed to be true. Morrigan and Flemeth have trust issues, I think. Issues that are not unfounded, whether Flemythal intended to forcefully posses her daughter or not. XD
Exactly, when you actually look at her actions in Origins and DA2, we never actually see Flemeth do anything but help the heroes (although it's self-serving help), nor do anything that could be construed as evil? The only time she becomes hostile is after the Warden has refused her offer to peacefully take the book and leave, so she was well within her rights to defend herself?
Morrigan makes mention of her murdering her past lovers, but we cannot take that at face value because Morrigan (as much as I love her character) has taken liberties with the truth from time to time? It could be that she plied us with those stories because it helped to establish her mother as a malevolent old witch, which would increase her chances of getting us to agree to murder her? I doubt that she wasn't planning that even before we found the Grimoire in the Tower, but this newfound discovery of a possession ritual only hastened the urgency?
Same with the Grimoire, we never read the tome (because it's in a language only Morrigan conveniently understands) so we have no idea what it actually said? For all we know, the ritual instructions could have been in there, but the description was super vague and said something along the lines of "a ritual to facilitate the transfer of one soul into another", leading her to misinterpret it as being a form of hostile possession, rather than the benign "gift" that's apparently meant to prime her for Mythal's soul in the future?
While it might be a retcon, it could just be in keeping with Morrigan's characterisation over the series, of someone who while very intelligent, is not nearly as smart (or wise) as she likes to think she is? We see this clearly in her obvious irritation with Solas for correcting her about the Elven Gods, as well as Flemeth's own summation of her daughter in DA2, that "she's a girl who thinks she knows what is what better than I, or anyone."
Does it actually matter? What's wrong with just enjoying the damn story these days??!!!
This type of comment can be said for practically every thread. Why do people like you even go on the boards? Just to troll?
I don't think I was clear. Let me try again. I'm saying two things:
1. DA:O was written to work as a stand-alone title, and I think that's something important to keep in mind when asking whether the creators changed their mind.
2. Flemeth might be lying in DAI. We shouldn't take her at her word.
1. That's irrelevant. You're making excuses for Bioware as if I'm scolding them for the possible change. I'm not. I'm just asking if it's been retconned.
2. I said in the OP this is irrelevant if Flemeth lied about her intentions with Morrigan.
I've never trusted Morrigan and always thought she was full of you-know-what. I've never trusted anything she says and still can't decide if she's a hero or villain.
I'd love to see Flemeth in every DA game in some role but could live without ever having to deal with Morrigan again. I think she's a great character and can definitely see why people like her. It's just visceral and personal for me; she's always rubbed me the wrong way.
Flemeth is not lying. We know this because we have the voices in Morrigan or the quis to tell us if she's lying or not.
And why the voices should be telling you the truth? Especially when their master, Mythal, is standing just in front of you. Mythal could tell the voices to tell you whatever the hell she wants, same way she can control you like a puppet. So no the voices answer to Mythal first, and if she wants to lie to you then the voices will go along with that.
And why the voices should be telling you the truth? Especially when their master, Mythal, is standing just in front of you. Mythal could tell the voices to tell you whatever the hell she wants, same way she can control you like a puppet. So no the voices answer to Mythal first, and if she wants to lie to you then the voices will go along with that.
You do understand the voices are compelled to do so. You or Morrigan are part of the voices now, all their knowledge is your knowledge. and it's you who are the slave to Mythal not the voices. Sorry but if the voice say she's not lying she's not lying.
You do understand the voices are compelled to do so. You or Morrigan are part of the voices now, all their knowledge is your knowledge. and it's you who are the slave to Mythal not the voices. Sorry but if the voice say she's not lying she's not lying.
I am not so sure .
Every voice in there is from ancient priest and Sentinels of Mythal , they were all bound to her .
And Mythal is directly connected to the Well , because the moment someone drink from it , she knows where Kieran is.
No, it's not a retcon. Nothing in the lore has to be changed in order for this plot event to be possible.
The basic gist was that Flemeth inhabits her daughter's body to extend her life. I don't see any retcon here, just more information on the process/ritual involved.
I am not so sure .
Every voice in there is from ancient priest and Sentinels of Mythal , they were all bound to her .
And Mythal is directly connected to the Well , because the moment someone drink from it , she knows where Kieran is.
No. the voices does have sentiance. With no will they can be control. they are memories but they are no wills. the only being in the quis' or Morigin's head being control is themselves. She can't stop the info the well has just the person who drinks it.
I'd rather Flemeth possess Morrigan. That would be funny.
The basic gist was that Flemeth inhabits her daughter's body to extend her life. I don't see any retcon here, just more information on the process/ritual involved.
No... DA:O leads you to believe with much information supporting it (read OP) that Flemeth meant to forcefully possess Morrigan. Then DA:I came along and Flemeth says "A soul is not forced on me unwilling. You were never in danger from me." which voids what we thought we knew regarding her intentions. That isn't "new information on the process/ritual involved." If the writers originally intended Flemeth to raise Morrigan to extend her life, then decided to change her motives when making later games despite previous lore leanings to the contrary, it's a retcon.
I think the implication is that, yes whilst they have no will, they answer to Mythal. So if the OGB is not born, it is Mythal's voices that lead you to the shrine so Flemeth can come and see who drank. If it had been pure knowledge why would the voices have led you to Mythal? Surely there must be other ways of matching Corypheus' power? It seems all too convenient to me to have not been Mythal manipulating you or Morrigan through the voices.No. the voices does have sentiance. With no will they can be control. they are memories but they are no wills. the only being in the quis' or Morigin's head being control is themselves. She can't stop the info the well has just the person who drinks it.
I guess it depends on how reliable you find item descriptions. Then again, DA:O still has contradicting info in itself from earlier storylines that were scrapped from the final release.
I think the implication is that, yes whilst they have no will, they answer to Mythal. So if the OGB is not born, it is Mythal's voices that lead you to the shrine so Flemeth can come and see who drank. If it had been pure knowledge why would the voices have led you to Mythal? Surely there must be other ways of matching Corypheus' power? It seems all too convenient to me to have not been Mythal manipulating you or Morrigan through the voices.
Edit: It makes sense when you think about what Solas says that everything you do will be for her, even if you know it or not. The voices will manipulate you in ways you can't imagine, withhold knowledge when needed, inform when advantageous etc.
it's not Mythal vocie that lead you to the shrine. The voices just tells you what to do. nothing show that Mythal is controlling the voices. And seeing who drank does not mean she controls the voices in the well or what info you get from it. Your the slave not the voices.
No... DA:O leads you to believe with much information supporting it (read OP) that Flemeth meant to forcefully possess Morrigan. Then DA:I came along and Flemeth says "A soul is not forced on me unwilling. You were never in danger from me." which voids what we thought we knew regarding her intentions. That isn't "new information on the process/ritual involved." If the writers originally intended Flemeth to raise Morrigan to extend her life, then decided to change her motives when making later games despite previous lore leanings to the contrary, it's a retcon.
Do you not understand that not once in dao does it let you comfirm this info? Having Morrigan is not a comfirmation, you would need to read the book or have Flemeth tell you herself it's true...
it's not Mythal vocie that lead you to the shrine. The voices just tells you what to do. nothing show that Mythal is controlling the voices. And seeing who drank does not mean she controls the voices in the well or what info you get from it. Your the slave not the voices.
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