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Black Emporium: What took so long?


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#1
BansheeOwnage

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Incoming rant-y wall-of-text!

 

So... The Black Emporium. Where to begin? How about 3 months ago, when the beta program featuring the BE was announced? February 13th. On that date, the BE must have been in a playable state, and from the looks of the screenshots in the announcement, visually complete. So what took so long? Why the 3 month wait to release it? I’ve heard that Xenon lacked a voice in the beta, so that’s one reason, but that doesn’t sound like it would have taken 3 months to rectify. The mirror and stores must have been working too, so the testers could actually test things. If the DLC was released shortly after the beta, I wouldn’t be making this thread, but as it stands, I am very disappointed. Here’s why:

 

In all this extra time, people wonder what is taking them so long, and they naturally think it might be because they’re adding cool new stuff, especially when the description says there are “new schematics”. Not too crazy to think that they might finally add the first qunari-specific armour, is it? Or at least new schematics for armour in general. Unfortunately, we got nothing that wasn’t in the game already. Re-skins of armour and schematics for some of the unique weapons that are already in the game. You can now craft Sulevin Blades. Cool, I guess, but that’s not what I get from “new schematics”. Technically, they are. Be very careful how you take any description in the future; this is PR speak if I’ve ever seen it.

 

You can buy every crafting material (except the ones from JoH). That’s a good addition. They are very expensive and limited though, and if you have to go adventuring to find enough gold to buy them, you’ll won’t be lacking in materials anyway. You can’t buy any fade-touched materials (not even one of each or something), so the main draw of this is to either get a material for the armour-tinter or dragon materials. Adding these is a lot better than not though, so thanks.

 

I am also very disappointed that they did not bring back Hawke’s VA to voice Xenon, instead hiring someone else. Unless the voice, tone, and mannerisms are just completely different, in which case I’d be confused as to how and why Hawke’s VA did it so differently this time. There is no Urchin, no Thaddeus Gigantus Crumbum the Third. There are also no codexes to read except for Xenon’s. A little disappointing compared to DA2, but not anywhere near my biggest issue.

 

Another unfortunate aspect of the DLC is that if you have JoH, you won’t have much use for it, since you’ll get loads of crafting materials in it, as well as Tier 4 weapon and armour schematics without any gold spent. Still good for people who don’t have JoH, yes, but if they added some cool-looking new armour in the BE (which I expected), this wouldn’t be an issue.

 

Another positive thing is that you can go there before Skyhold and use the mirror of transformation. I don’t think I have to explain why that’s great. What’s not so great, is that for me (trust me, I know other people have uses for the mirror) is that there isn’t really a point, since I don’t need to tweak my character and there are no new options in the CC like removing the infuriating sideburns, or new hairs. It was pretty cool how you could age Hawke and give them new scars or longer hair in DA2 between acts, but that only works if you have enough hair to actually do that. Now, I know a lot of people who like to defend Bioware are screaming in their head right now, shocked that I wanted or hoped for new hair. Now, hoping was never the same as demanding, or even requesting. Did I hope for new hair? Yes. Did I request it? Yes. Did I demand it? No. Hope I cleared that up ;)

 

In fact, there are a few things I hoped for and requested (since it took so bloody long to be released), and here they were:

- More hair (without sideburns and male-pattern baldness)/a way to remove sideburns...

- Being able to save an appearance as a preset

- More casual outfits

- Tinting for Skyhold outfit and possible new casual outfits.

- Armour toggle for Skyhold.

 

Now, I’m particularly disappointed about the lack of tinting for the Skyhold outfit and/or an armour toggle for Skyhold. Why? Because those things already exist in the game! They just need to unlock them for us to use! It's just sad that after so many months, they still can't do those 2 very simple things that have been repeatedly asked for since launch. With the DLC being advertised as cosmetic, and with the addition of the CC being accessible at any point in the game, this would have been the perfect opportunity to implement these things and more importantly, if they didn't do it now, it makes me wonder if they ever will. So yeah, I'm feeling rant-y. <_<

 

Mike Laidlaw's comment at launch was something like: 

 

“If it was simple we would have done it.

If we didn't do it, it wasn't simple.”

 

Sorry, but I'm inclined to disbelieve that. It's a great catch-all excuse, sure. But I know for a fact that you can tint the Skyhold outfit that appears under mage armour, so the mechanics are there. I also know that modders have implemented an armour toggle by "switching a 1 to a 0". I know that new hair would require work, but this? This can't possibly be too hard to accomplish in 6 months if the PC community did it within 1. Besides, that was the response at launch. If they couldn't do it at launch for whatever reason, put in the effort now. It's been almost 6 months. It's not like it isn't one of the most requested features or anything...

 

I definitely understand that you can’t just snap your fingers and make new hair meshes appear. But you’d think that they could have made a few in 6 months (the actually did make one for Isabela). You would also think, that in that time, they might be able to at least make some of the current hairstyles not usable by the Inquisitor available, such as Josephine’s, Cassandra’s, Leliana’s, Morrigan’s, Alistair/Cullen’s, Calpernia/Anora’s, Blackwall’s, Sera’s… You get the point. You can use Varric’s after all. You might argue that we shouldn’t have access to the more unique styles, but I’d rather look slightly similar to one companion than indistinguishable from half of the NPCs.

 

I was also hoping for a way to remove the horrible and frankly insulting sideburns from the hairs I want to use on my female characters, but no luck. Honestly, that should have been a higher priority than even new hairs, and once again, modders fixed it in very short order while Bioware are apparently unwilling or incapable to do the same within 6 months with more resources and a better understanding of Frostbite 3. This would have been the opportune moment to introduce a way to save a face as a preset as well. You could even make a few faces at once instead of having to restart the game to do so. No luck there either.

 

Also, I am a firm believer that any complaint is valid if a previous game made by the same company (or in the same series) did the same thing much better. That's why lack of good hair is a very valid criticism (among other reasons) and that's also partly why lack of casual outfits is another. ME had a few options, and things are supposed to improve as you make more games.

 

I don’t think my hopes for the Black Emporium were ridiculous. For a while I hoped for new hairs and tinting for the Skyhold outfit, but after the description of the DLC, I stopped hoping. That’s what I was supposed to do, right? So basically, when I downloaded it, I thought “Hey, at least I’ll hear Xenon again, and get a few new armour schematics to try on. I love cosmetic customization!” I got none of even that! Can I really be blamed for those expectations?

 

Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, I want to emphasize how if Bioware was better at communicating with their fanbase (on the official forum), we wouldn’t have these hopes. And they are hopes, not expectations. Bioware is aware of the most requested features since launch. Among them are new hair and an alternative Skyhold outfit. Now, since they are aware, it is their job to communicate their intentions to us. It’s not difficult, here’s how it would look:

 

-Yes, we are working on this.

-No, we have no plans to add this.

-We are looking into it, but can’t guarantee anything.

 

And bam! Just like that, you’ve changed the whole situation. Now people won’t expect or hope for (usually reasonable) things to be added if you don’t plan on adding them. I also understand that the devs are busy with work on new DLCs and patches (and I appreciate that), but in no universe does that mean that between them, none have time to say one of the 3 statements above. More importantly, the devs themselves don’t need to directly. That’s the job of a community manager, which we don’t seem to have.

 

Does all of the above look unreasonable? I, for one, don’t think so.

 

TL;DR: Bioware needs to get better at communicating, and what the hell took this DLC so long to come out?


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#2
devSin

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I still think there was something in their contract with Microsoft that prevented the release of any single-player DLC (to platforms other than Xbone) before May. Especially since it seems not much has changed since the beta.

As to your other issue, I'd only say that BioWare has to support everyone. That something can be done and work at least some of the time on a single platform doesn't actually mean much.

You won't get far second-guessing Mike when he tells you compromises are made for actual reasons, not "just because".
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#3
Cervin

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...and now it´s out. be happy. geez..


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#4
Gileadan

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It's available before Skyhold? Heh. It has a spoiler in its unlock-text then. 



#5
Auztin

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I read till you started second guessing a dev.If it is so easy in your eyes,do it yourself.Everything can look easy when all you do is peek through a window,only when you are in their position will understand.Also,it is Bioware's job to tell you no at everything little thing they have never stated will be in the BE.Ok.That is entitlement at it's finest.

#6
Felya87

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it's becaming frustrating when the most asked stuff (alternative PJs and hairstyles) aren't even discussed. And is from before the game was out that people asked for those. BioWare listen to the feedback he want to. An answer, a tweet or something similar, would be appreciated.


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#7
Octarin

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TL;DR cause at the present time BE is unavailable to me, a mere SP pleb, who doesn't own XBOXLIVE Gold sub. So, when and if it ever becomes available to me, I'll give your rant the time of day too. Vade Caesaris and so forth...


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#8
BansheeOwnage

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I forgot to mention that the lighting in the CC looks a lot better than the intro! Have to give credit where credit's due.

Spoiler


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#9
devSin

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It's available before Skyhold? Heh. It has a spoiler in its unlock-text then.

That's especially annoying.

My only guess is that it was intended to open up at Skyhold, and somewhere along the way it was decided to be available earlier but too late to change the text.

#10
BansheeOwnage

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I read till you started second guessing a dev.If it is so easy in your eyes,do it yourself.Everything can look easy when all you do is peek through a window,only when you are in their position will understand.Also,it is Bioware's job to tell you no at everything little thing they have never stated will be in the BE.Ok.That is entitlement at it's finest.

I'm only second-guessing him because the evidence points to him being wrong (word from modders). Unless he gives me in-depth technical reasoning as to why the amateurs keep beating the professionals, I'm not going to believe it's too hard. And the thing is, I think I could do it myself! I'm capable, and other modders have made completely new outfits and hair meshes (that work on multiple characters). I don't play on PC, however.



#11
Uirebhiril

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Don't overlook the technical or programming aspects of it, or the amount of time a team had to spend on it, or timed exclusive stuff getting in the way. If implementing it might have broken parts of the game, of course they'd need to take time testing to be sure it won't. If they have people working on a story DLC or the first seeds of the next game, there's only so many hours to devote to a free add-on. And if it were a timed exclusive thing, well, everyone's hands are tied.

 

Seriously, they didn't announce this, put it to beta, and then sit back and laugh at people waiting for it because they're big nasty meanies...


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#12
Guest_Mlady_*

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I understand how you feel, and agree with some points, but the BE in DA2 did not give us new hair either. This BE is the same Kirkwall one and since children and Golems are not in DAI, they saw no reason to put them, though I would think Urchin has grown up by now. 

 

I find DAI a game I love to play again and again, so having those schematics early in the game is fun for the people that start a new game (and now my IQ can have a nice hairstyle change for the Ball), but since I beat it and JOH, it does feel pointless for my current Inquisitor, but that's because the game is pretty much over for me by now and I've done it all.



#13
BansheeOwnage

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Don't overlook the technical or programming aspects of it, or the amount of time a team had to spend on it, or timed exclusive stuff getting in the way. If implementing it might have broken parts of the game, of course they'd need to take time testing to be sure it won't. If they have people working on a story DLC or the first seeds of the next game, there's only so many hours to devote to a free add-on. And if it were a timed exclusive thing, well, everyone's hands are tied.

 

Seriously, they didn't announce this, put it to beta, and then sit back and laugh at people waiting for it because they're big nasty meanies...

I'm not saying they did. My question wasn't rhetorical, and they're free to come in here and tell us what did take them so long. As for the timed-exclusivity: If that was the case, why not keep adding to the BE since they effectively had a mandatory extension?


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#14
Grieving Natashina

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I forgot to mention that the lighting in the CC looks a lot better than the intro! Have to give credit where credit's due.

Spoiler

Forgive me for being very blunt, but why the hell couldn't they do that in the first place?!?!?  I remember talking about wanting the CC in more of a natural lighting last summer.  Allan asked me what I meant and I told him, "You know, sunlight or the lighting our characters will probably be in more often than not."  I remember several folks posting in agreement.

 

So what did we get?  An oddly lit greenish CC.  Maybe that feedback came too late, but I'm still stumped as to why the devs thought this was a good idea.  You know that I'm not usually the bitter type, but why did it take 6 months after release to do this?  Devs, I know you read the forums.  I know you lurk.  I know that you guys like having bits of the story play into little details like the CC.  However, next time, please don't make the CCs so oddly lit.  It doesn't immerse me into your game, it throws me out of there because I'm concerned that the odd lighting is going to screw up my character.  

 

Plus, green?  Really?  This is a color that doesn't need a heavy shade in order to dramatically change another color.  I've played with a color wheel and added some green to a shade of red.  I noticed very quickly how little green can change a lot.  I know it fits with the Mark and the color of the explosion, but that was not a good choice.  Please please please, next time just make the lighting natural.   :)


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#15
BansheeOwnage

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I understand how you feel, and agree with some points, but the BE in DA2 did not give us new hair either. This BE is the same Kirkwall one and since children and Golems are not in DAI, they saw no reason to put them, though I would think Urchin has grown up by now. 

 

I find DAI a game I love to play again and again, so having those schematics early in the game is fun for the people that start a new game (and now my IQ can have a nice hairstyle change for the Ball), but since I beat it and JOH, it does feel pointless for my current Inquisitor, but that's because the game is pretty much over for me by now and I've done it all.

DA2 didn't need to give us more hairs though. It's sorely needed in this one. They did mention a new urchin in dialogue, but she doesn't appear. I'm not saying it had to be the same one, and it's a really minor point anyway. I also do applaud the schematics being available, don't get me wrong. I just thought when they said "new" they meant new.


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#16
BansheeOwnage

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Forgive me for being very blunt, but why the hell couldn't they do that in the first place?!?!?  I remember talking about wanting the CC in more of a natural lighting last summer.  Allan asked me what I meant and I told him, "You know, sunlight or the lighting our characters will probably be in more often than not."  I remember several folks posting in agreement.

 

So what did we get?  An oddly lit greenish CC.  You know that I'm not usually the bitter type, but why did it take 6 months after release to do this?  Devs, I know you read the forums.  I know you lurk.  I know that you guys like having bits of the story play into little details like the CC.  However, next time, please don't make the CCs so oddly lit.  It doesn't immerse me into your game, it throws me out of there because I'm concerned that the odd lighting is going to screw up my character.  

 

Plus, green?  Really?  This is a color that doesn't need a heavy shade in order to dramatically change another color.  I've played with a color wheel and added some green to a shade of red.  I noticed very quickly how little green can change a lot.  I know it fits with the Mark and the color of the explosion, but that was not a good choice.  Please please please, next time just make the lighting natural.   :)

I couldn't agree more! I do remember the complaints before the game was even released, much like the Skyhold outfit. I would also imagine changing the lighting before launch would have been easier than changing the Skyhold outfit. So like you said, it only took 8 or 9 months to do :P  And I do know you're not the bitter type, so if you're angry, it's probably warranted ^_^



#17
Guest_Mlady_*

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DA2 didn't need to give us more hairs though. It's sorely needed in this one. They did mention a new urchin in dialogue, but she doesn't appear. I'm not saying it had to be the same one, and it's a really minor point anyway. I also do applaud the schematics being available, don't get me wrong. I just thought when they said "new" they meant new.

 

That's the thing, this is BE from DA2 in DAI. I'm guessing new hair might be a paid DLC in the future. This being free is just a replica. Free doesn't mean new, it means reused. New would mean money.



#18
OdanUrr

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I can only hope the BE will be improved upon with new patches. I do have to agree with the poor communication overall.


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#19
Grieving Natashina

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I couldn't agree more! I do remember the complaints before the game was even released, much like the Skyhold outfit. I would also imagine changing the lighting before launch would have been easier than changing the Skyhold outfit. So like you said, it only took 8 or 9 months to do :P  And I do know you're not the bitter type, so if you're angry, it's probably warranted ^_^

About this?  Nah, not really.  I have other issues with BioWare at the moment.  :P



#20
Auztin

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I'm only second-guessing him because the evidence points to him being wrong (word from modders). Unless he gives me in-depth technical reasoning as to why the amateurs keep beating the professionals, I'm not going to believe it's too hard. And the thing is, I think I could do it myself! I'm capable, and other modders have made completely new outfits and hair meshes (that work on multiple characters). I don't play on PC, however.

How does playing on PC got to with it.Modders work on stuff for free with no pressure.Do modders live off selling mods or worry about the next big dlc.No.Bioware works in a professional environment.Modders do not.The do what they want,when they want.Do you say a unknown singer is better at making song than a professional,too.Pros have to worry about deadlines,public image,& ect.Modders do not.
BE is not a simple copy & paste,either.2 different engines means they had to rebuild it from ground up.

#21
BansheeOwnage

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You won't get far second-guessing Mike when he tells you compromises are made for actual reasons, not "just because".

That's the thing. He doesn't tell of the actual reasons, he basically says "just because". "Trust us, it's hard. We won't tell you why modders can do it and we can't though." Sorry, this just irks me a lot.


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#22
phaonica

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That's the thing. He doesn't tell of the actual reasons, he basically says "just because". "Trust us, it's hard. We won't tell you why modders can do it and we can't though." Sorry, this just irks me a lot.


In my experience, even if they did tell us the reason, they'd get accused of making excuses.
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#23
BansheeOwnage

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That's the thing, this is BE from DA2 in DAI. I'm guessing new hair might be a paid DLC in the future. This being free is just a replica. Free doesn't mean new, it means reused. New would mean money.

Not necessarily. MP DLCs are free, and have new content. I don't expect SP DLC to be free, but since the message I got out of this DLC was that it was a sort of "reparation" for the community, I hoped for a one-time sort of freebie with hair and an improvement for the Skyhold outfit. Proceed to paid DLCs after that.

 

How does playing on PC got to with it.Modders work on stuff for free with no pressure.Do modern live off selling mods or worry about the next big dlc.No.Bioware works in a professional environment.Modders do not.The do what they want,when they want.Do you say a unknown singer is better at making song than a professional,too.Pros have to worry about deadlines,public image,& ect.Modders do not.

All of that just shows how much more impressive it is that modders did all they did in such a short amount of time. They managed to do it with no pressure to do so, no money gained, no professional tools, and no image to worry about. Fixing these things would only improve Bioware's image, you know.

 

About this?  Nah, not really.  I have other issues with BioWare at the moment.   :P

Poor choice of words on my account :P



#24
BansheeOwnage

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In my experience, even if they did tell us the reason, they'd get accused of making excuses.

Probably, but in this case, I really can't see why they can't do what amateurs can, and that needs an explanation in my opinion.



#25
Grieving Natashina

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That's the thing. He doesn't tell of the actual reasons, he basically says "just because". "Trust us, it's hard. We won't tell you why modders can do it and we can't though." Sorry, this just irks me a lot.

Especially with the armor toggle.  It's literally that easy if someone takes a look at the CheatEngine code.  Folks were asking for an armor toggle about three months before the game came out, especially when it was confirmed that beige was the chosen color.  The first images looked like the female Qunari was wearing a white shirt with black pants.  Which was received pretty well, but the final version was revealed.  Fans did not like it and pretty much immediately started requesting a way to have alternate colors.  Little did we know at the time that we were forced into the jammies while at Skyhold with no option.  

 

So yeah, this is something that has been a request for nearly a year now, that's as simple as creating an in-game switch.  I know most toggle requests aren't well thought out, because the majority of the time it's not that easy.  This?  This is truly as easy as a simple binary flip of 0 to 1 and yet they still won't do it.

 

Stuff like a clothing tinting table, the hair, much of that I can see being a ton of work that could divide their attention from DLC and bug fixes.  However, taking a few days out of their busy schedule to provide an armor toggle would go a long way to appeasing the fans that hate beige and want to burn the clothes every time they are at Skyhold.  Sure, this can be a fan base that's very hard to please, but it's not that hard to get a gauge of what many folks are requesting.  If they can't do a tinting table, then surely they can add a feature that changes a 0 to a 1.  I've seen footage and most of the lighting works just fine for armor.  A few places look slightly off, but not enough to really effect the game.  IMHO, it would be a middle ground between those that like current clothes and those that think the clothes look awful.  

 

I'd also enjoy it for RP reasons.  My paranoid dwarf rogue certainly would not have walked around Skyhold in her underclothes after Haven.


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