140 réponses à ce sujet

[Auztin]

Not necessarily. MP DLCs are free, and have new content. I don't expect SP DLC to be free, but since the message I got out of this DLC was that it was a sort of "reparation" for the community, I hoped for a one-time sort of freebie with hair and an improvement for the Skyhold outfit. Proceed to paid DLCs after that.

All of that just shows how much more impressive it is that modders did all they did in such a short amount of time. They managed to do it with no pressure to do so, no money gained, no professional tools, and no image to worry about. Fixing these things would only improve Bioware's image, you know.

Poor choice of words on my account

How is it impressive?They have no worry or care.If most modders were thrown in AAA development they would end up being depressed or exuasted.You or modders have not experienced what is like to worry about stuff like I posted.Modders take credit if it is a great mod but if the mod is screwed up it's okay.It was free.What the hell?You can't compare a nobody to a professional when put into different work environments.Either both should be held to the same standards or not at all compared.It is typical "I think I can do better".

[devSin]

That's the thing. He doesn't tell of the actual reasons, he basically says "just because". "Trust us, it's hard. We won't tell you why modders can do it and we can't though." Sorry, this just irks me a lot.

The reasons are none of your business, quite frankly. (And I can tell you exactly what they are anyway: the 360 and PS3.)

They don't have to justify their decisions to you. Like everything they did with the game, they had a reason to do it. You don't have to like it, you can want it to change, but you're being incredibly unreasonable sitting around demanding they prove to you that the decision they made has a reason that will satisfy you (and assuming there can't possibly be a reason if they won't tell you).

[Vylix]

How does playing on PC got to with it.Modders work on stuff for free with no pressure.Do modders live off selling mods or worry about the next big dlc.No.Bioware works in a professional environment.Modders do not.The do what they want,when they want.Do you say a unknown singer is better at making song than a professional,too.Pros have to worry about deadlines,public image,& ect.Modders do not.
BE is not a simple copy & paste,either.2 different engines means they had to rebuild it from ground up.

Something tells me that at this point Bioware isn't too concerned about their public image.

 

snide comment aside, I don't understand how you find this argument valid. The devs are paid for their work. Most, if not all, of the modders have to work and sustain their own personal lives before doing any modding. There is pressure, especially for the guys building the damn tools from scratch. Yes, if there are some issues the mods are free and it is understandable, but in many cases the people who created the mods that may have issues are working to get rid of those issues so that other people can enjoy them. They don't get paid for their work, there is no money to motivate them to do their work. The only motivation they have is their own personal desire to make the game better for themselves and for other players. Some of the modders are harassed to all hell by ungrateful -insert words I cant use on the forums here- that don't understand how complicated the things they pull off are, or how time consuming it is. The fact of the matter is that with only their free time in the past 6 months the modders have managed to build a tool to create mods, build another tool to distribute mods, and have created mods for the Jammies, NPC clothing, PC face textures, and have even started on hair mods. Sure, some of the mods aren't the best quality, but I'd bet that with access to proper tools the modders, in this timeframe, would have done more to fix Inquisition than the devs did. No offense to the devs or anything, but the modders don't need to listen to the community-- they are part of it.

 

Yes, the devs are working on DLC and bug fixes. Yes the devs are busy and do have a lot of work, but the issues here aren't that they're busy but rather that they aren't presenting themselves properly. They say they listen to feedback, yet the most requested things have not been touched on. The first singleplayer DLC we received is an overpriced area filled with fetch quests. I will give them credit on listening to feedback about wanting more time to talk with Scout Harding, but where are the more requested features? People have been asking over and over for more memorable sidequests and more things to make the huge world they created feel like there is life in it. The second singleplayer DLC is free, so I cant complain too much, but why did it take so long? The main point here is that they aren't communicating with us about whats going on. Did they run into some issues? If they did why didn't they mention "Hey guys our DLC is going to be delayed because we ran into some problems, sorry!". Yes, they had to build from the ground up, but I don't really think that's a good excuse for not implementing a few minor fixes that would make a lot of people's game experience better, and that aren't particularly hard to accomplish. You can't argue that the fixes are extremely hard to do if the modding community, with limited time and resources, have already managed to accomplish the fixes.

 

TL;DR - I hate when people bash on the modding community because its not their job and they "only do what they want". If anything the lack of payment for their work, and the fact that they maintain personal lives, makes their accomplishments even more amazing. The devs have a huge headstart, yet aren't answering a lot of the easy fixes that are in high demand. I don't think its fair for them to say they are listening to their community when they only sort-of listen. maybe saying "we look at suggestions from the community" would be better wording.

[Poisd2Strike]

I'll just leave this here.  FYI, despite what the script says I actually like the Elves quite a bit:

 

[Auztin]

Something tells me that at this point Bioware isn't too concerned about their public image.

snide comment aside, I don't understand how you find this argument valid. The devs are paid for their work. Most, if not all, of the modders have to work and sustain their own personal lives before doing any modding. There is pressure, especially for the guys building the damn tools from scratch. Yes, if there are some issues the mods are free and it is understandable, but in many cases the people who created the mods that may have issues are working to get rid of those issues so that other people can enjoy them. They don't get paid for their work, there is no money to motivate them to do their work. The only motivation they have is their own personal desire to make the game better for themselves and for other players. Some of the modders are harassed to all hell by ungrateful -insert words I cant use on the forums here- that don't understand how complicated the things they pull off are, or how time consuming it is. The fact of the matter is that with only their free time in the past 6 months the modders have managed to build a tool to create mods, build another tool to distribute mods, and have created mods for the Jammies, NPC clothing, PC face textures, and have even started on hair mods. Sure, some of the mods aren't the best quality, but I'd bet that with access to proper tools the modders, in this timeframe, would have done more to fix Inquisition than the devs did. No offense to the devs or anything, but the modders don't need to listen to the community-- they are part of it.

Yes, the devs are working on DLC and bug fixes. Yes the devs are busy and do have a lot of work, but the issues here aren't that they're busy but rather that they aren't presenting themselves properly. They say they listen to feedback, yet the most requested things have not been touched on. The first singleplayer DLC we received is an overpriced area filled with fetch quests. I will give them credit on listening to feedback about wanting more time to talk with Scout Harding, but where are the more requested features? People have been asking over and over for more memorable sidequests and more things to make the huge world they created feel like there is life in it. The second singleplayer DLC is free, so I cant complain too much, but why did it take so long? The main point here is that they aren't communicating with us about whats going on. Did they run into some issues? If they did why didn't they mention "Hey guys our DLC is going to be delayed because we ran into some problems, sorry!". Yes, they had to build from the ground up, but I don't really think that's a good excuse for not implementing a few minor fixes that would make a lot of people's game experience better, and that aren't particularly hard to accomplish. You can't argue that the fixes are extremely hard to do if the modding community, with limited time and resources, have already managed to accomplish the fixes.

TL;DR - I hate when people bash on the modding community because its not their job and they "only do what they want". If anything the lack of payment for their work, and the fact that they maintain personal lives, makes their accomplishments even more amazing. The devs have a huge headstart, yet aren't answering a lot of the easy fixes that are in high demand. I don't think its fair for them to say they are listening to their community when they only sort-of listen. maybe saying "we look at suggestions from the community" would be better wording.

I am not bashing modding.What you typed in bold is what I find ironic.Bioware is using a new engine that was made for shooters & you think it easy to just build the black emporium with copy and paste.Modders do not have Hugh mods unless you think of skyrim.DA:O had mostly armor,weapons,gfx,character options as a mod.How many modders build something the equivalent of a DLC in size.Not many.Usually the mods that are the equivalent of DLC are made into DLC with extra thrown in by devs with acknowledgement of the modder.Take the Day Z mod.The guy behind the mod got recognition for it from the company.That is talent worthy of a professional not 2-3 outfits originally made with no game testing.You are hold developers to a high standard but mods are held below standard.You give modders a free pass on any screw up but AAA devs are held to an impossible standard.There is literally complaining about a looting animation.I won't trying to convince you that in different environments are different outcomes,pressures,& that affect differently.

[Vylix]

I am not bashing modding.What you typed in bold is what I find ironic.Bioware is using a new engine that was made for shooters & you think it easy to just build the black emporium with copy and paste.Modders do not have Hugh mods unless you think of skyrim.DA:O had mostly armor,weapons,gfx,character options as a mod.How many modders build something the equivalent of a DLC in size.Not many.Usually the mods that are the equivalent of DLC are made into DLC with extra thrown in by devs with acknowledgement of the modder.Take the Day Z mod.The guy behind the mod got recognition for it from the company.That is talent worthy of a professional not 2-3 outfits originally made with no game testing.You are hold developers to a high standard but mods are held below standard.You give modders a free pass on any screw up but AAA devs are held to an impossible standard.There is literally complaining about a looting animation.I won't trying to convince you that in different environments are different outcomes,pressures,& that affect differently.

I pointed out two things in bold. One, that the devs are paid for their work. Two, that the modders had to make their own modding tools. Neither of which are ironic.

 

Now, since you seemed to have missed the entire point, let me clarify this in a simple manner. I have not asked for something the size of DLC. I am asking for mod sized fixes. I have never said it is easy to make the Black Emporium, what I have said is that a simple retexture or recolour of the Skyhold Jammies, or the option to wear armor instead, should be easy to implement. I understand that the Frostbite 3 engine is not suited towards RPGs and, although I do question the choice to use the engine, I understand certain features had to be cut in order to complete the game on their deadline. I would like to see more memorable side quests, but the main focus of my response was that Hair and Jammies are the two most widely requested things, and yet they have not been dealt with. While hair is more complicated than the texture swap or re-colour option for the jammies, it should still be entirely possible as a smaller fix. Its not like anyone is asking for 100's of hairstyles. Another 2 maybe 3 hairstyle options would probably make a large amount of the community rejoice. Hell, they wouldn't even have to be full on new hairstyles. If someone was to go in and take out sideburns from some options, and patch up some of the balding on others I'm quite certain the community would at least be somewhat satisfied, I know I would be pretty damn happy. 

 

I do not see how this is anywhere near "impossible" standards.

[Captain Wiseass]

It's really easy to say something should be simple when you're not the one who has to do it.

[Lumix19]

To be fair don't modders simply work with
PC, whereas Bioware have to work with all the platforms?

[AlanC9]

I
Now, since you seemed to have missed the entire point, let me clarify this in a simple manner. I have not asked for something the size of DLC. I am asking for mod sized fixes. I have never said it is easy to make the Black Emporium, what I have said is that a simple retexture or recolour of the Skyhold Jammies, or the option to wear armor instead, should be easy to implement. I understand that the Frostbite 3 engine is not suited towards RPGs and, although I do question the choice to use the engine, I understand certain features had to be cut in order to complete the game on their deadline. I would like to see more memorable side quests, but the main focus of my response was that Hair and Jammies are the two most widely requested things, and yet they have not been dealt with. While hair is more complicated than the texture swap or re-colour option for the jammies, it should still be entirely possible as a smaller fix. Its not like anyone is asking for 100's of hairstyles. Another 2 maybe 3 hairstyle options would probably make a large amount of the community rejoice. Hell, they wouldn't even have to be full on new hairstyles. If someone was to go in and take out sideburns from some options, and patch up some of the balding on others I'm quite certain the community would at least be somewhat satisfied, I know I would be pretty damn happy. 
 
I do not see how this is anywhere near "impossible" standards.

Depends. Do you also want it for free?

[Vylix]

To be fair don't modders simply work with
PC, whereas Bioware have to work with all the platforms?

I'm not sure how this would affect the difficulty but I figure that being professionals, and having more resources at their disposal, would balance the two out in difficulty levels.

[Vylix]

Depends. Do you also want it for free?

No. I am perfectly fine with having to pay a little extra to have professional quality material implemented, so long as the price isn't ridiculous for what I am receiving.

[Lumix19]

I'm not sure how this would affect the difficulty but I figure that being professionals, and having more resources at their disposal, would balance the two out in difficulty levels.

Neither am I to be honest, it's just something I thought about.

[Grieving Natashina]

No. I am perfectly fine with having to pay a little extra to have professional quality material implemented, so long as the price isn't ridiculous for what I am receiving.

Fair enough.  A lot of folks paid about $5-$8 a piece for alternate appearance packs for the ME games.

[Vylix]

Fair enough.  A lot of folks paid about $5-$8 a piece for alternate appearance packs for the ME games.

out of curiosity, what was included in those packs?

[BansheeOwnage]

Especially with the armor toggle.  It's literally that easy if someone takes a look at the CheatEngine code.  Folks were asking for an armor toggle about three months before the game came out, especially when it was confirmed that beige was the chosen color.  The first images looked like the female Qunari was wearing a white shirt with black pants.  Which was received pretty well, but the final version was revealed.  Fans did not like it and pretty much immediately started requesting a way to have alternate colors.  Little did we know at the time that we were forced into the jammies while at Skyhold with no option.  

 

So yeah, this is something that has been a request for nearly a year now, that's as simple as creating an in-game switch.  I know most toggle requests aren't well thought out, because the majority of the time it's not that easy.  This?  This is truly as easy as a simple binary flip of 0 to 1 and yet they still won't do it.

 

Stuff like a clothing tinting table, the hair, much of that I can see being a ton of work that could divide their attention from DLC and bug fixes.  However, taking a few days out of their busy schedule to provide an armor toggle would go a long way to appeasing the fans that hate beige and want to burn the clothes every time they are at Skyhold.  Sure, this can be a fan base that's very hard to please, but it's not that hard to get a gauge of what many folks are requesting.  If they can't do a tinting table, then surely they can add a feature that changes a 0 to a 1.  I've seen footage and most of the lighting works just fine for armor.  A few places look slightly off, but not enough to really effect the game.  IMHO, it would be a middle ground between those that like current clothes and those that think the clothes look awful.  

 

I'd also enjoy it for RP reasons.  My paranoid dwarf rogue certainly would not have walked around Skyhold in her underclothes after Haven.

I can't possibly "like" this enough! I bolded the parts I especially agree with

[Grieving Natashina]

out of curiosity, what was included in those packs?

For the ones I bought, you'd get two alternate looks for three of your squad mates.  For example, in ME3, you can get one pack that gives you two alternate appearances for Garrus, EDI and James.  I bought one of the ones for ME2 as well, and you got two different appearances for Jack, Tali and Miranda.  The reason why I bought them was because I hated the white catsuit for Miranda so put her into some real armor.  EDI's cameltosis is much less noticeable with a black uniform.  I paid ~$7.50 for them a piece with BW points, so I got 12 alternate looks for 6 characters for around $15.

[Vylix]

For the ones I bought, you'd get two alternate looks for three of your squad mates.  For example, in ME3, you can get one pack that gives you two alternate appearances for Garrus, EDI and James.  I bought one of the ones for ME2 as well, and you got two different appearances for Jack, Tali and Miranda.  The reason why I bought them was because I hated the white catsuit for Miranda so put her into some real armor.  EDI's cameltosis is much less noticeable with a black uniform.  I paid ~$7.50 for them a piece with BW points, so I got 12 alternate looks for 6 characters for around $15.

Yeah, something like this for the inquisitor's appearance I could get behind. Its no excuse to slack off on character creation if they have the time to implement more/better stuff in the future, but as an alternative to not getting anything? definitely.

[phaonica]

So yeah, this is something that has been a request for nearly a year now, that's as simple as creating an in-game switch.  I know most toggle requests aren't well thought out, because the majority of the time it's not that easy.  This?  This is truly as easy as a simple binary flip of 0 to 1 and yet they still won't do it.

 

I haven't played with this armor toggle myself. I wonder if there are some weird clipping issues that certain armors cause in cutscenes...

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

Probably, but in this case, I really can't see why they can't do what amateurs can, and that needs an explanation in my opinion.

You could ask Bethesda the same question. Skyrim had game breaking bugs that players fixed months before they did. It's why I finally had to sell my Xbox 360 copy when I had my companion with -1000% armor rating (meaning she takes +1000% damage from all attacks) because the armor reduction shout is permanent, stacking, and affects all NPCs. Modders fixed it, I have no idea if they have.

[Grieving Natashina]

Yeah, something like this for the inquisitor's appearance I could get behind. Its no excuse to slack off on character creation if they have the time to implement more/better stuff in the future, but as an alternative to not getting anything? definitely.

That's one of the things I've been requesting as an alternative to just beige.  I can understand if the animators are extremely picky about the lighting and don't want to go back through to make sure the lighting is perfect for the armor.  They also might not want to futz with another tinting table.

 

So with that in mind, I've been trying to think of some other ideas.  I've been playing the ME series again, so that's what came to mind.  I liked the appearance packs and offering something like that for the Skyhold clothing could also work well.  I would be willing to pay for three options for ~$7 dollars.  If they are willing to try that, then I'm happy to toss them money in support of it. 

 

I haven't played with this armor toggle myself. I wonder if there are some weird clipping issues that certain armors cause in cutscenes...

I didn't see any clipping issues in the footage I saw, just the lighting looked a little off in from some angles.  Reddit would have protested loudly if the clipping was too much worse than usual.

[BansheeOwnage]

I am not bashing modding.What you typed in bold is what I find ironic.Bioware is using a new engine that was made for shooters & you think it easy to just build the black emporium with copy and paste.

I don't think anyone was suggesting no amount of work went into recreating the BE. No one said it was as easy as copy-pasting. But the thing is, it was functionally done 3 months ago, hence the title question: What took so long?

 

It's really easy to say something should be simple when you're not the one who has to do it.

Except we're not guessing that it was simple or not. We know it's simple.

 

Its not like anyone is asking for 100's of hairstyles. Another 2 maybe 3 hairstyle options would probably make a large amount of the community rejoice. Hell, they wouldn't even have to be full on new hairstyles. If someone was to go in and take out sideburns from some options, and patch up some of the balding on others I'm quite certain the community would at least be somewhat satisfied, I know I would be pretty damn happy. 

 

I do not see how this is anywhere near "impossible" standards.

Fully agree here. Just a few would be adequate. I'd like to see more from DA2 (which included all of the ones from DA:O), especially since it's hard for most players to recreate Hawke without any hair Hawke had

[BansheeOwnage]

I haven't played with this armor toggle myself. I wonder if there are some weird clipping issues that certain armors cause in cutscenes...

All that would prove is Bethesda isn't the best at fixing things either. We shouldn't lower our standards because of this.

[phaonica]

 

I didn't see any clipping issues in the footage I saw, just the lighting looked a little off in from some angles.  Reddit would have protested loudly if the clipping was too much worse than usual.

 

 

Really? I'm surprised. For me, better for it to work somewhat than have no option at all.

[Grieving Natashina]

There is one thing I wanted to point out.  When it comes to the modders, we as users are more forgiving of things like clipping, lighting issues and other minor animation problems of that sort.  The devs are extremely scrutinized with every detail, and I'm not claiming I'm any better sometimes for sure.  That being said, we're much more easier on the modders overall.  I've used some amazing mods, but I've also seen a fair amount of mediocre ones.   We can talk about the good ones folks make in their spare time, but how many of them tend to have small mistakes?  Plenty and I'm not trying to knock on their hard work.  Now, think about some of those minor mistakes coming from the devs themselves.  That would go over like a lead rock with some fans out there.