26 réponses à ce sujet

[alienboy411767]

I'm sure someone else must have considered this at some point. 

 

On my most recent playthrough, it struck me that, since cerberus Reaper indoctrination is never really confirmed until the Illusive Man at the end, is it possible that, at least on some level, he or his agents were being controlled instead/also by the Leviathans? It may help explain Sanctuary at least, I think.  Illusive Man was studying Reaper indoctrination, trying to come up with a way to usurp Reaper control and take control for himself.  This is an ability the Leviathans seem to have naturally but only through their artifacts. Perhaps the Leviathans were looking for more/broader means of usurping Reaper control? This would explain why the Reapers apparently didn't know about Sanctuary for a while and then attacked it later on to put an end to it. It is, after all, entirely possible that Cerberus came across a Leviathan artifact at some point and kept it somewhere in the Illusive Man's base at least for some time.  

 

Thoughts?

[fraggle]

I don't really think so. I mean, wasn't the reason the Reapers attacked Cerberus at Sanctuary because TIM and Co. actually managed to control some husks and even wanted to go further an try this on actual Reapers? The Reapers saw that as a potential threat and intervened.

Also Leviathans seem so passively to me until Shepard kicks their asses to join the war effort that I kinda doubt they did something out of their own accord.

[dorktainian]

it makes sense cerberus were working for another party.  Leviathan?   Just look at Anadius as tim did.  Orbs everywhere.    

He seemed to spend a lot of time looking at that star.  

[Han Shot First]

The Illusive Man being under Reaper indoctrination is confirmed at the end by the Catalyst.

 

TIM's variety was just different and a little bizarre compared to Saren. Instead of having TIM believe that cooperating with the Reapers was the answer, the Reapers had him think he was opposing them by seeking to control them. It was also just a ruse to make him think he wasn't under their thumb, while he was doing their bidding. 

 

The oddities at Sanctuary were probably due to the small measure of freedom that the Reapers allow their top agents, to keep them high functioning rather than reducing them to mindless slaves.

[bboynexus]

Or perhaps the Illusive Man wasn't at all indoctrinated up until he had surgery prior to our assault on Cronos Station. 

[Kabooooom]

TIM was indoctrinated for the entire game of ME3, actually. This is made obvious on Mars, the very first real mission of the game, and is brought up by Shep himself. Moreover, throughout the game their indoctrination is repeatedly thrown in your face by other characters. Even Javik tells you that an indoctrinated group in his cycle wanted to control the Reapers too.

It isn't confirmed until the end, sure, but their actions in ME3 make zero sense except in the light of indoctrination.

As I've pointed out on these forums before, indoctrination is not an all-or-nothing event. The more free will a pawn has, the more useful they are. Just as Saren could build an entire research facility to study indoctrination WHILE he was indoctrinated - so too could Cerberus create Sanctuary. There is no difference.

[Torgette]

It would make more sense if those dreams Shepard was having were caused by Leviathan.

[dorktainian]

It would make more sense if those dreams Shepard was having were caused by Leviathan.

Leviathan cannot indoctrinate.  That's the reapers weapon of choice.  Leviathan can directly manipulate an organic via a strategically placed orb, but indoctrination is far more subtle.  It would be kinda neat if cerberus was indeed controlled by leviathan as an opposition to the reapers.  I have read statements from people wondering if the reapers were in reality the 'good guys'.  That premise would depend on exactly what Leviathan are capable of.  Thing is we did not get enough information in the DLC to suggest either way whether leviathan was a positive influence, or indeed whether it could turn out to be the true evil hiding within the mass effect universe.  We assume they would help us.  We could be wrong.

[GalacticWolf5]

Or perhaps the Illusive Man wasn't at all indoctrinated up until he had surgery prior to our assault on Cronos Station.

TIM was indoctrinated since the First Contact war. It's in the comics.

[Torgette]

Leviathan cannot indoctrinate.  That's the reapers weapon of choice.  Leviathan can directly manipulate an organic via a strategically placed orb, but indoctrination is far more subtle.  It would be kinda neat if cerberus was indeed controlled by leviathan as an opposition to the reapers.  I have read statements from people wondering if the reapers were in reality the 'good guys'.  That premise would depend on exactly what Leviathan are capable of.  Thing is we did not get enough information in the DLC to suggest either way whether leviathan was a positive influence, or indeed whether it could turn out to be the true evil hiding within the mass effect universe.  We assume they would help us.  We could be wrong.

 

I think your best bet would be to make sure both stay very, very far away.

[Iakus]

Leviathan indoctrination seems to work differently:  It's range is more limited, requiring the proximity of one of those orbs.  And it seems to be more "assuming direct control"-y, forcing people to act certain ways than altering the way they think.  People who regain control after being influenced by the Leviathans have no memory of what happened to them.  TIM, if you talk him down, seems to realize he is being controlled, rather than go "Huh, where am I?"

[CrutchCricket]

The Leviathans are only interested in hiding. If they were up to ploys to regain their former glory they would've tried (and possibly died) long before this cycle.

 

And I don't see Cerberus carrying orbs at any point.

 

Though I do admit it would be interesting and in-character to learn that Leviathans have attempted to use a faction to try and gain control of the Reapers in every cycle. But it'd be too risky for them.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

When Mass Effect 3 was written, the Leviathans had not been thought about. Leviathan was written for the sole purpose of justifying the existence of the Starchild. You see, when Bioware wrote the Original Ending, they dug a hole. So when they decided to explain the Original Ending and write the Extended Cut, then they realized they had dug a deeper hole and needed to fill it by creating Leviathan.

 

Therefore, it is reaper indoctrination.

[dorktainian]

When Mass Effect 3 was written, the Leviathans had not been thought about. Leviathan was written for the sole purpose of justifying the existence of the Starchild. You see, when Bioware wrote the Original Ending, they dug a hole. So when they decided to explain the Original Ending and write the Extended Cut, then they realized they had dug a deeper hole and needed to fill it by creating Leviathan.

 

Therefore, it is reaper indoctrination.

It's the gift that keeps on giving.  Wait till you see whats coming next.  You thought the end of ME3 was bad, prepare to be amazed by the next storyline.

[CrutchCricket]

It's the gift that keeps on giving.  Wait till you see whats coming next.  You thought the end of ME3 was bad, prepare to be amazed by the next storyline.

Jar Jar eating puppies and watching/reading Twilight and Fifty Shades at the same time isn't as bad as the ending of ME3.

 

What's your beef with the next storyline?

[DeathScepter]

what if Shepard, Bioware, and BSN were indoctrinated by the Reapers?  *checks for reoccurring dreams of the oily shadows and little kids puke flying oily shadows*

[Cheviot]

When Mass Effect 3 was written, the Leviathans had not been thought about.

When you come up with some evidence to back up your opinion, I've got a reply waiting for you.

[fraggle]

When you come up with some evidence to back up your opinion, I've got a reply waiting for you.

 

Do you have something that proves they thought about Leviathans before? I know there was a mention of the Leviathan of Dis in ME1, but that turned out to be a real Reaper, I think. I'd be really interested in this, always fun to see what was thought out before.

[dorktainian]

Jar Jar eating puppies and watching/reading Twilight and Fifty Shades at the same time isn't as bad as the ending of ME3.

 

What's your beef with the next storyline?

an evacuation mid conflict to another galaxy while people are dying in the milky way, via an as yet unknown deus ex machina device not mentioned in the original trilogy to wurm their way out of the car crash of an ending that was ME3?

 

no beefs at all....  

[CrutchCricket]

an evacuation mid conflict to another galaxy while people are dying in the milky way, via an as yet unknown deus ex machina device not mentioned in the original trilogy to wurm their way out of the car crash of an ending that was ME3?
 
no beefs at all....  

Better that than the alternative. Car crashes really aren't that pretty. Though here it's more like a train wreck... over a plane crash... into a nuclear meltdown that's been pissed on by aliens.

Otherwise you do know what a contingency plan is, right? If anything I think it's stupid alternatives like this weren't explicitly discussed in ME3. But I guess everyone was too busy wailing about how the Reapers can't be beat conventionally. Because, you know, "art".

[ImaginaryMatter]

The Leviathans are only interested in hiding. If they were up to ploys to regain their former glory they would've tried (and possibly died) long before this cycle.

 

And I don't see Cerberus carrying orbs at any point.

 

Though I do admit it would be interesting and in-character to learn that Leviathans have attempted to use a faction to try and gain control of the Reapers in every cycle. But it'd be too risky for them.

 

Maybe the Leviathan's were behind all those rogue Cerberus cells?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Do you have something that proves they thought about Leviathans before? I know there was a mention of the Leviathan of Dis in ME1, but that turned out to be a real Reaper, I think. I'd be really interested in this, always fun to see what was thought out before.

 

Yes it was a real reaper. It indoctrinated the entire Batarian high command.

 

From Wikia -

 

Provided he survived the batarian terrorist attack on Terra Nova in 2183, Balak will tell Commander Shepard that the Leviathan of Dis was actually a Reaper corpse that the Batarian Hegemony had transported to Khar'shan. After the failure of the attack on Terra Nova, the Hegemony accelerated research on the Leviathan, which then indoctrinated numerous batarian scientists and officials. The indoctrinated officials then sabotaged Hegemony defenses during the Reaper invasion in 2186, allowing the Reapers to easily conquer batarian territories and crush their scattered navy.

[CrutchCricket]

Maybe the Leviathan's were behind all those rogue Cerberus cells?

Using enthrallment to explain stupidity isn't going to work any better than using indoctrination

[ImaginaryMatter]

Using enthrallment to explain stupidity isn't going to work any better than using indoctrination

 

It was worth a shot.