516 réponses à ce sujet

[Terodil]

Not to read you or anything, but I sort of "bristle" that you'd chalk it up to "representation" as a reason for there to be physically "unattractive" characters, when it's really more than that.

Sorry. I'm still sore about this whole 'must stomp out attractiveness because unrealistic' stuff that we've had all over the place recently. Hopefully you did not misunderstand it this way, but I just want to make clear that I didn't mean to imply that gays were ugly and needed to be represented as such! Definitely not! I've just had enough of the 'not all NPCs need to be supermodels' argument.
 

Same thing with video games (as well as other forms of storytelling)- all well and good if the characters are nice to look at, but if that's all that they are, there's nothing really hooking me in to make me want to cheer them on and ship them together. Chemistry and story matters to me more than appearances, although I won't completely rule out good looks altogether.

I almost completely agree with you. Eye candy and no substance is a big problem, as we can see with DA:I on the larger scale (amazing graphics imo, but serious trouble with content quality). Where we differ is in the last half-sentence. Where you say 'you wouldn't rule out good looks altogether', the aesthete in me would say 'I'd still prefer good looks over bad looks' (provided that the 'substance' is the same). Though admittedly where good looks turns boring, and where interesting looks turns ugly, is probably going to be a debate that will never be solved

[Octarin]

I can still feel some disturbance in the force however...

[Grieving Natashina]

Maybe because the OP never did reply.

As long as we don't get ready to be offended when they do reply, I don't see why this pleasant tone has to change.  We've watched firsthand someone trying to do that in another thread and everyone just calmly sidestepping around the post(s) while continuing their conversation.

 

Besides, I'm not going to automatically assume that the OP is going to have something negative or unproductive to say just yet.  I was harsh in my first couple of posts and I should have handled the OP's idea with a little more tact.  As was pointed out to me, English might not be the OP's first language and might not have realized how using the royal "we" sounded.  Hopefully we've given them some food for thought and they'll have some interesting ideas to share.  

[Octarin]

Well, in all earnest, good luck with that. I see the entire point as moot, when we're discussing something that falls under the "artistic vision" of someone else, who is not obliged at all to listen to any of our ideas, good, bad or opinionated. Moreover, when regarding a game that is RIPE with bugs, glitches, freezes, crashes, and other playability issues, forgive me when I smirk at posts like this. I understand how it might be, for some unfathomable reason, important to some people. I guess these people haven't hit on any major playability handicaps, and have the luxury of debating whether someone's moustache is manlier than someone else's. Personally I don't give two hoots who's gay, who isn't, who goes with whom and who does what. I just want a glitch-freeze-crash free game. So, forgive me the sarcasm.

[Terodil]

Well they haven't singled out one man in the game to criticise the appearance of, repeatedly call him a woman, question that any normal straight woman could find him attractive and claim that his design is artistically and scientifically flawed, for starters.

Well, do you have a guy you would like to criticise? I for one would say 'go ahead'. Why not? It's an NPC. If you want to claim that no "normal straight woman" could like, say, Blackwall, because he's an ass and looks like a donkey, then I'm sure he would be deeply offended... if an NPC could be offended. But I see no reason for other forumites to be offended in his place.

[RINNZ]

My husband keeps wanting to do his bacon maple sugar cookies with a brown sugar and maple glaze. I don't know if I would be intrigued or scared. I'll probably go with both.

Is your husband trying to catch the diabeetus? Because that's how you catch the diabeetus.

[Grieving Natashina]

Well, in all earnest, good luck with that. I see the entire point as moot, when we're discussing something that falls under the "artistic vision" of someone else, who is not obliged at all to listen to any of our ideas, good, bad or opinionated. Moreover, when regarding a game that is RIPE with bugs, glitches, freezes, crashes, and other playability issues, forgive me when I smirk at posts like this. I understand how it might be, for some unfathomable reason, important to some people. I guess these people haven't hit on any major playability handicaps, and have the luxury of debating whether someone's moustache is manlier than someone else's. Personally I don't give two hoots who's gay, who isn't, who goes with whom and who does what. I just want a glitch-freeze-crash free game. So, forgive me the sarcasm.

Sarcasm forgiven, but I do want to point something out.  Just because a player either makes a thread like this or participates in one doesn't mean that they aren't concerned in other areas.  For example, I've posted in threads dealing with game breaking bugs (One of Solas' personal quests being bugged out forever, a "cute" one involving judgments, Cory's fight completely bugging out) framerate issues (don't get me started with the fighting I've had to do there) and crashes (I can't play for more than two hours at a time without the game crashing,) but I've also posted in threads requesting more LIs or better hair styles.  

 

I don't see how this is a zero sum game at all.  You're right, there is a lot of issues, some of which are crippling the game for some people.  Yet I think there is room to post and be concerned about these kinds of topics (like hair or representation) as well as about the technical problems in the game.

 

 

Is your husband trying to catch the diabeetus? Because that's how you catch the diabeetus.

He doesn't eat a lot of sweets usually, so he'll be just fine.  

[Terodil]

Damn the like quota. Consider yourself liked, most ( ) of you!

[Steelcan]

well this thread is.......a  thing

[PsychoBlonde]

I don't particularly appreciate that the OP took it upon herself to speak for all women, because I've CERTAINLY never felt left out of Bioware games--not even back in the Old Days when the ladies got ONE potential romance while the guys had, like, three.  I actually felt rather MORE included than in other games I could mention--ones where I couldn't even play a female character, for instance.  I felt very included with Pillars of Eternity even though there are zero romances.  Although I think I was halfway through the game before I picked up a female companion.   I literally felt like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz for much of the game.

 

I don't particularly lust after male eye-candy, nor do I need Hawt Guys to gaze upon to feel included in a game (or anything else).  For me, at least, any effort along these lines is likely to come across as unspeakably cheesy and fail.  I found Zevran quite off-putting, for instance.  I don't really think a guy is Hawt unless I quite like his personality/character, and requesting more male characters of this type that I like would probably be a catastrophe for everyone else.  I mean, even Ser Barras was pretty cute but I didn't warm to him.

 

So, I guess, my take is "I'm pretty happy" and "keep on keepin on".

[PsychoBlonde]

Sorry. I'm still sore about this whole 'must stomp out attractiveness because unrealistic' stuff that we've had all over the place recently. Hopefully you did not misunderstand it this way, but I just want to make clear that I didn't mean to imply that gays were ugly and needed to be represented as such! Definitely not! I've just had enough of the 'not all NPCs need to be supermodels' argument.
 

I almost completely agree with you. Eye candy and no substance is a big problem, as we can see with DA:I on the larger scale (amazing graphics imo, but serious trouble with content quality). Where we differ is in the last half-sentence. Where you say 'you wouldn't rule out good looks altogether', the aesthete in me would say 'I'd still prefer good looks over bad looks' (provided that the 'substance' is the same). Though admittedly where good looks turns boring, and where interesting looks turns ugly, is probably going to be a debate that will never be solved

 

 

Yeah, I was gonna say, I thought that pretty much all of the DA:I characters except maybe Cole were pretty darn Hawt.  But I'm all about personality/character/voice/expressions, not pulling out the ruler to make sure that people's features line up

[Andraste_Reborn]

 

This has been awesome.  Thanks again for putting that up.  I understand that's not those aren't the End All Be All Reasons, but I feel like I am less ignorant on the subject than I was previously.  

 

My pleasure! I'm happy to have an excuse to talk about it, since my reaction to the OP was a giant facepalm. I promise that not all slash fans objectify gay men and treat them like performing seals! (Although unfortunately it's not the first time I've seen someone say something cringe-inducing on the subject.)

 

I know some trans and genderqueer slashers, too, and I think it can absolutely be a safe way for people to explore sex and gender.

 

I'd like to add, into slash discussion, that I think one reason is that many medias don't have lot of female characters or these female characters appear boring/weak/sth else shippers don't like or they don't like chemistry or relationship with the few female characters with male characters. For me at least it's hard to find female characters I like, not so much anymore as it was when I was younger. Maybe that's also cause I have grown-up and learn to appreciate different kind of characters too.

 

I can't believe I left that out of the list! I used to see that brought up a lot in older fandoms, not so much now. Probably because media in general does have more female characters these days, whereas if you go back to the shows that were the roots of slash fandom there really weren't many well-developed women to write about. I don't think it's an acccident that fandom ended up writing a lot of Kirk/Spock.

 

Valjean x Javert?

 

If you think that's weird, I better not tell you who I 'ship in Babylon 5.

 

(For the morbidly curious, my AO3 profile.)

[Grieving Natashina]

Yeah, I was gonna say, I thought that pretty much all of the DA:I characters except maybe Cole were pretty darn Hawt.  But I'm all about personality/character/voice/expressions, not pulling out the ruler to make sure that people's features line up

I find Iron Bull extremely hot and his looks have nothing to do with it.  In fact, when it comes to looks, he's not in the ballpark of what I prefer physically.  It's the rest of the personality and honestly, FPJ's voice work that make the character attractive to me.  Of course, I find Garrus the most attractive in the ME series for the same reasons.  

 

I know that Cullen is extremely popular with the ladies and I did enjoy his romance.  However, he's supposed to be "incredibly hot" and I find him kinda generic looking.  There is a lot of guys out there in media that look like that, so, meh?  I ended up trying the romance my second time because his personality and story arc (which I found very relatable to me in some areas) drew me in.  And I have to admit, Cullen's got a rather, um, lovely voice.  

 

Honestly, BioWare has done only one male LI that fits my physical type over the years, and that's great by me.  It's the personalities and these days the voice acting that draws me into a possible romance arc, regardless of my own physical preference.

[carlo angelo]

Sorry. I'm still sore about this whole 'must stomp out attractiveness because unrealistic' stuff that we've had all over the place recently. Hopefully you did not misunderstand it this way, but I just want to make clear that I didn't mean to imply that gays were ugly and needed to be represented as such! Definitely not! I've just had enough of the 'not all NPCs need to be supermodels' argument.

 

Don't worry about it, but while I think the whole "attractiveness versus realism" has gotten out of hand and I refuse to participate in it now, there's some truth in it. I don't think realism rules out beauty, nor should beauty rule out realism. I just think it's finding that sweet spot that's both appealing in character design and something that makes sense. Where that sweet spot lies is what's causing dissent and no one's going to agree.

 

I didn't get "gays were ugly and have to be represented" from your reply. But I wanted to point out, on my end, that gays who are "ugly" might find some comfort in seeing some "ugliness" in gay characters. Might not be for you or anyone, but at least there's some variety in these sorts of characters, is what I'm saying.

 

 

I almost completely agree with you. Eye candy and no substance is a big problem, as we can see with DA:I on the larger scale (amazing graphics imo, but serious trouble with content quality). Where we differ is in the last half-sentence. Where you say 'you wouldn't rule out good looks altogether', the aesthete in me would say 'I'd still prefer good looks over bad looks' (provided that the 'substance' is the same). Though admittedly where good looks turns boring, and where interesting looks turns ugly, is probably going to be a debate that will never be solved

 

Different strokes for different folks.

 

Believe me when I say that I wouldn't be complaining if the next Dragon Age installment will have the beautiful people all around. I'm an artist. I like pretty things too. My imagined list of companions I'd like to see in the future have a measure of good looks to them. But I also try to find beauty in things that aren't conventionally "beautiful", because sometimes the appeal doesn't hit you until you appreciate it long enough. And I suppose where we differ, if Dragon Age 4 has the companions' physical appearances comparable to that of Inquisition, I still won't bat much of an eyelash, whereas you just might have an issue. Fair enough, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

But here's to hoping for more in depth character arcs strongly tied to a potent main story.

 

 

Is your husband trying to catch the diabeetus? Because that's how you catch the diabeetus.

 

[Terodil]

Honestly, BioWare has done only one male LI that fits my physical type over the years, and that's great by me.

Pft, you tease. So who was it?

Oh wait, wait, don't tell. Was it the Mad Hermit? (Your own fault. This was too good to pass up.)

[SardaukarElite]

Well, do you have a guy you would like to criticise? I for one would say 'go ahead'. Why not? It's an NPC. If you want to claim that no "normal straight woman" could like, say, Blackwall, because he's an ass and looks like a donkey, then I'm sure he would be deeply offended... if an NPC could be offended. But I see no reason for other forumites to be offended in his place.

 

Er... no? I don't have anything to say about the attractiveness of the male characters.

 

Not that I'm offended by people picking on Cas, I just think they're a being an arse. I actually like critical discussion and certainly don't mind people being negative about a character, but I don't see what someone finds attractive or not as really being about that character. They could just state what they like and hope that BioWare picks up on it next time.

 

Beyond that generalising about what an entire group of people can or can't find attractive is pointless. There will always be some who disagree with you, it's just trying to grant your opinion more weight than it deserves.

[Grieving Natashina]

Pft, you tease. So who was it?

Oh wait, wait, don't tell. Was it the Mad Hermit? (Your own fault. This was too good to pass up.)

Valen Shadowbreath, from Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark.  Minus the horns and tail of course.   He had a great mix of bulk and leanness that I like, with a narrow face with a strong jaw and nice eyes.  He was also snarky and was rather bitter at first (which fits for a character written by David Gaider) but had this incredibly sweet side when the player did the romance.  Fenris came close, but verged into too lean and too pretty for me, as well as way too overly dramatic.  

 

That's why I don't get too hung up on the looks of the male LIs.  I can usually bet that they aren't going to fit into my physical type exactly, but I am more about the stories and the personalities of the characters themselves.  I think one of my only criteria for a male (or female) LI in a BioWare game other than a personality I can enjoy is a nice voice.   That's just my opinion.  

[carlo angelo]

Valen Shadowbreath, from Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark.  Minus the horns and tail of course.   He had a great mix of bulk and leanness that I like, with a narrow face with a strong jaw and nice eyes.  He was also snarky  and was rather bitter at first (which fits for a character written by David Gaider) but had this incredibly sweet side when the player did the romance.  Fenris came too close, but verged into too lean and too pretty for me, as well as way too overly dramatic. 

 

I see that he's long-haired and clean shaven. Like what you said in the other thread.

[Grieving Natashina]

I see that he's long-haired and clean shaven. Like what you said in the other thread.

 I thought you'd probably catch that.  He also has dark hair, which is another preference of mine.  I'm not as picky about eye color, so thankfully there is a lot of the LIs out there in various BW games regardless of my own physical preference that has some lovely eyes.  That helps.  

[Panda]

I find Iron Bull extremely hot and his looks have nothing to do with it.  In fact, when it comes to looks, he's not in the ballpark of what I prefer physically.  It's the rest of the personality and honestly, FPJ's voice work that make the character attractive to me.  Of course, I find Garrus the most attractive in the ME series for the same reasons.  

 

I know that Cullen is extremely popular with the ladies and I did enjoy his romance.  However, he's supposed to be "incredibly hot" and I find him kinda generic looking.  There is a lot of guys out there in media that look like that, so, meh?  I ended up trying the romance my second time because his personality and story arc (which I found very relatable to me in some areas) drew me in.  And I have to admit, Cullen's got a rather, um, lovely voice.  

 

Honestly, BioWare has done only one male LI that fits my physical type over the years, and that's great by me.  It's the personalities and these days the voice acting that draws me into a possible romance arc, regardless of my own physical preference.

 

I'm quite same with IB and Garrus and even Cullen. Look-wise IB and Garrus don't do it for me, but personality makes up for it big time, especially with Garrus. At first in ME I was like, how is this dinosaur-bird even LI?! I also think Cullen is bit generic and his romance too romantic for me, but I like him as character at least.

 

I can't believe I left that out of the list! I used to see that brought up a lot in older fandoms, not so much now. Probably because media in general does have more female characters these days, whereas if you go back to the shows that were the roots of slash fandom there really weren't many well-developed women to write about. I don't think it's an acccident that fandom ended up writing a lot of Kirk/Spock.

 

 

If you think that's weird, I better not tell you who I 'ship in Babylon 5.

 

(For the morbidly curious, my AO3 profile.)

 

Yea I think it's one of big points why some people like m/m better than m/f, lack of female characters and good one's in top of that (though "good" is up to discussion of cource). Like still in some things like Avengers, there is only one girl in the squad and it would be weird to just pair the one girl with everyone ^^

[Shechinah]

I've wondered why they decided to change Cullen's hair from curly to straight especially since he's had it like that for two games. Maybe the Breach came him such a shock, it straightened his hair and it never curled back again.

[carlo angelo]

 I thought you'd probably catch that.  He also has dark hair, which is another preference of mine.  I'm not as picky about eye color, so thankfully there is a lot of the LIs out there in various BW games regardless of my own physical preference that has some lovely eyes.  That helps.  

 

I haven't played this game so I'm just relying on Google images... there's quite a lot of fanart, I see...

 

Now that you said something about your ideal, I don't know if I have an ideal so far in Bioware games. Or in games in general. I think the knights thread had spoiled me rotten with character concepts yet to be put into game that I've might've found an ideal in an idea rather than an actual character...

[SardaukarElite]

I've wondered why they decided to change Cullen's hair from curly to straight especially since he's had it like that for two games. Maybe the Breach came him such a shock, it straightened his hair and it never curled back again.

 

Inquisition has a tragic lack of curls all around.

[Panda]

I've wondered why they decided to change Cullen's hair from curly to straight especially since he's had it like that for two games. Maybe the Breach came him such a shock, it straightened his hair and it never curled back again.

 

I have headcanon that he uses tons of hair wax every morning and it's his well-kept secret he doesn't want anyone to know. He has paid off Varric.

[Octarin]

 

Sarcasm forgiven, but I do want to point something out.  Just because a player either makes a thread like this or participates in one doesn't mean that they aren't concerned in other areas.  For example, I've posted in threads dealing with game breaking bugs (One of Solas' personal quests being bugged out forever, a "cute" one involving judgments, Cory's fight completely bugging out) framerate issues (don't get me started with the fighting I've had to do there) and crashes (I can't play for more than two hours at a time without the game crashing,) but I've also posted in threads requesting more LIs or better hair styles.  

 

I don't see how this is a zero sum game at all.  You're right, there is a lot of issues, some of which are crippling the game for some people.  Yet I think there is room to post and be concerned about these kinds of topics (like hair or representation) as well as about the technical problems in the game.

 

 

He doesn't eat a lot of sweets usually, so he'll be just fine.  

 

 

It's all about priorities for me. I don't have the time to spend hours on end reading pages upon pages of irrelevant things. So, I'm sticking to those I prioritize. Right at the moment, my priorities lie with attempting to make my game playable and keeping my blood pressure low. There have been times that I've spent days in here, but that was a luxury. 

 

Just to be clear on something: I don't grudge other people doing what they think they must. I just don't. As simple as that.