516 réponses à ce sujet

[Shechinah]

Agreed generally a "troll" is universally a person who presents ideas or criticisms that are too much for people to take, whether due to weakness or some other aspect.

 

Generally speaking whenever someone is deemed "trolling" it's also coincidentally the only time I'm interested in the subject or topic.

 

I usually refrain from accusing someone of trolling because what may appear to be attempts to troll are sometimes just because of things; sometimes unintentional things like a poster being inexperienced with formulating their arguments, engaging in a discussion or just phrased things poorly. I've seen a few threads and posts where that was the case and where the posters were unaware of why they were being accused of trolling and so thought it was solely because of their opinion and not how they had worded it.

 

It was hard to have a discussion about the appearance of female companions because a poster specifically began provoking people by spamming threads which stated that all female romances looked like men and that this was not subjective but was objectively true. It began bleeding into other threads even especially because the poster, I believe, brought it into other threads. This muddied the waters for discussing it for a while and so when someone who had not been around for it, made a thread about it a lot of people had the same reactions to that poster even though provoking was likely not the poster's intent. It is why trolls can have such a detrimental effect on forums. It has thankfully calmed down now otherwise we would probably not be able to have our lovely boob-armor discussion thread.

 

TL;DR - It's generally my advice that even if you think someone might be attempting to troll or trying to incite negativity specifically to ruin the waters for a discussion that you still engage their points seriously and maybe even point out why their post could be mistaken for an attempt at trolling. That way, you still further a discussion and make your points without dismissing someone who might have been sincere in their criticism.   

[Panda]

I don't know if Not-Brevnau is troll either, but I hope he's for his own sake.

 

To me the OP seems like troll in this thread and that's why I proposed it. The OP just has so strong viewpoints that don't even seem to make sense when thinking of DAI like that Bioware isn't thinking female players and that the game has 75% Female population and lack of male characters. The "women like" arguement combined to these strong unpopular views and the post count of OP that is very low makes me think that s/he is troll.

 

Even if s/he is not I oppose the viewpoints, I don't think they could be executed in the game way that would make sense and would even make players that happy.

[Grieving Natashina]

I usually refrain from accusing someone of trolling because what may appear to be attempts to troll are sometimes just because of things, sometimes unintentional things like a poster being inexperienced with formulating their arguments, engaging in a discussion or just phrased things poorly.

 

It was hard to have a discussion about the appearance of female companions because a poster specifically began provoking people by spamming threads which stated that all female romances looked like men and that this was not subjective but was true. It began bleeding into other threads even especially because the poster, I believe, brought it into other threads. This muddied the waters for discussing it for a while and so when someone who had not been around for it, made a thread about it a lot of people had the same reactions to that poster even though provoking was likely not the poster's intent. It is why trolls can be such a detrimental effect on forums. It has thankfully calmed down now otherwise we would probably not be able to have our lovely boob-armor discussion thread.

 

TL;DR - It's generally my advice that even if you think someone might be attempting to troll or trying to incite negativity specifically to ruin the waters for a discussion that you still engage their points seriously and maybe even point out why their post could be mistaken for an attempt at trolling. That way, you still further a discussion and make your points without dismissing someone who might have been sincere in their criticism.   

The boob armor thread is proof of concept.  If anything, even though the OP was....special, that has turned into a really productive and interesting conversation.  There isn't a lot of flaming or negative posts, although there has been some heated debates.  I've learned a lot about medieval combat thanks to that thread.  It was only when the OP did come back to spam posts that the thread was in trouble.  Now that's no longer the case, it's gone back to this intriguing debate, a mix of debate about style preferences and real world demonstrations.  I liked that and if I had completely dismissed that thread because of the OP, I wouldn't have actually learned something.  Tangential learning is the best.  

 

Maybe I can learn some neat stuff from this thread too.  Okay, here's a honest question:  I've never really been into seeing two men together as a woman.  I have nothing against it, but it's never been an interest of mine.  May I ask what the appeal for a woman, if someone is willing?  I promise that I say that with no flames, no trolling, but since this thread does exist, I'd like to learn more about that point of view.  Is it similar to what some straight/bisexual men have mentioned about seeing two women together, that's it's beautiful and appealing?

[Beama Beorhtost]

Hazegurl, would you make an opening post claiming that everybody wants it though? I'm fine with people offering their suggestions on what would make a game more appealing to them, my problem is that it is theirs opinion and may or may not coincide with mine so, please, don't use the 'we want' unless it is meant as a royal pronoun

[Beama Beorhtost]

@Natashina - Damn it, as a medievalist I now feel compelled to check the boobs armor thread even though I've been avoiding like the plague...

[TheOgre]

I feel like i'm being judged for only judging the person and not their content o.o I could do both if that's what people would prefer.. 

 

BLARGH! shame OP for having possible flame baity intentions!! sHAMMEEEE

 

Still -- who wouldn't like more eye candy? (( may or may not be serious when asking.. )

[Grieving Natashina]

@Natashina - Damn it, as a medievalist I now feel compelled to check the boobs armor thread even though I've been avoiding like the plague...

In all honesty, there has been some really good conversation going in there.  The mods cleaned up most of the spam from the OP, who was trying to derail his own thread (ugh.)  Mind you, the debates can get heated but it's been civil overall.  A lot of good different viewpoints, discussions about armor and personal taste.  I know it's weird, but I'm recommending that thread.  I don't agree with some of the folks in there, but I respect their PoV.  Yes, a mature debate with little flaming about boob armor on the BSN.  

[Shechinah]

I feel like i'm being judged for only judging the person and not their content o.o I could do both if that's what people would prefer.. 

 

BLARGH! shame OP for having possible flame baity intentions!! sHAMMEEEE

 

Still -- who wouldn't like more eye candy? (( may or may not be serious when asking.. )

 

To me, it depends on the eye candy. Some are just not to my taste but that's my personal taste, of course. Some like strawberry, some like liquorice, some like bourbon with strawberry, liquorice, lemon and a chocolate center.

[Little Princess Peach]

Alistair, a fool? How dare you... for having an opinion contrary to mine own.. How dare you!

Alistair ias a fool a sexy good looking fool...exsuse I have to replay DA:O

[Grieving Natashina]

To me, it depends on the eye candy. Some are just not to my taste but that's my personal taste, of course. Some like strawberry, some like liquorice, some like bourbon with strawberry, liquorice, lemon and a chocolate center.

I'm getting the oddest case of deja vu.  I swear, I've seen you write that exact post with the exact same comparison of flavors.  

 

@Ogre Here's the problem with "eye candy."  As Shechinah humorously pointed out, what's good for one person isn't always going to be another's taste.  There's also needing to account for some straight/bi men and lesbian/bisexual women who have zero issues with all the lovely ladies running around and want to see more.  I know that some of the straight/bisexual women and gay/bisexual men would also enjoy seeing more guys of various types and looks around too.  It really depends upon the individual. 

[Char]

To me, it depends on the eye candy. Some are just not to my taste but that's my personal taste, of course. Some like strawberry, some like liquorice, some like bourbon with strawberry, liquorice, lemon and a chocolate center.

I've only just got a batch of tarts out of the oven, and now you've made me want to make some experimental cupcakes

[Grieving Natashina]

I've only just got a batch of tarts out of the oven, and now you've made me want to make some experimental cupcakes

My husband keeps wanting to do his bacon maple sugar cookies with a brown sugar and maple glaze.  I don't know if I would be intrigued or scared.  I'll probably go with both.

[Shechinah]

(to Natashina) There is also how the "eye candy" in question may look like. To make an example; To some, a shirtless Blackwall would qualify as fanservice while to others it would qualify as fan disservice. What is appealing to some is not always appealing to others hence why what is important is often the implementation of the fanservice.

 

The "Game of Thrones" series has many sex or sexual scenes which are sometimes used to deliver sexposition, basically exposition and info dumps, but not always and while they are interesting to some, to others they are tedious and slows down the plot.

 

Note; And if you are looking "fan disservice" on TvTropes then yes, that is Robotnik from the old Sonic cartoon in a bikini and no, we are out of bleach so enjoy that memory. To others, I know it is hard to find pictures and you are very much welcomed.

[TheOgre]

I know, it's almost a lose-lose situation as Snakecode once pointed out in, I believe earlier to this thread when referring to number of companions and options versus other options. It's transferable toward other things too.. If someone suggested Morrigan should be more 'average' looking for her milfy age.. I'd frenzy and snarl at that.. Can't make everyone happy.

[Grieving Natashina]

(to Natashina) There is also how the "eye candy" in question may look like. To make an example; To some, a shirtless Blackwall would qualify as fanservice while to others it would qualify as fan disservice. What is appealing to some is not always appealing to others hence why what is important is often the implementation of the fanservice.

 

Note; And if you are looking "fan disservice" on TvTropes then yes, that is Robotnik from the old Sonic cartoon in a bikini and no, we are out of bleach so enjoy that memory. To others, I know it is hard to find pictures and you are very much welcomed.

Iron Bull is even a stronger example of this.  There is folks that consider his chest and butt to be very welcome, others not so much.  And there is even some that find Vivienne's cleavage unappealing and Isabela too busty to be considered good looking.

 

I read TVTropes from time to time and sadly, I've seen that fan disservice picture you're talking about.  As a side note, I swear there is a few posters on the BSN that are also active tropers.  

[Char]

My husband keeps wanting to do his bacon maple sugar cookies with a brown sugar and maple glaze.  I don't know if I would be intrigued or scared.  I'll probably go with both.

I've been meaning to try maple & bacon for years, going to make a note on my shopping list now! I currently live somewhere where even smoked bacon is apparently seen as an exotic food choice, so I tend to get nervous looks every time I invite people over for dinner

[Grieving Natashina]

I know, it's almost a lose-lose situation as Snakecode once pointed out in, I believe earlier to this thread when referring to number of companions and options versus other options. It's transferable toward other things too.. If someone suggested Morrigan should be more 'average' looking for her milfy age.. I'd frenzy and snarl at that.. Can't make everyone happy.

Anyone that thinks that a mother can't look at good as Morrigan in their mid to late 30s really needs to spend some more time on the internet in my humble opinion.

[Hazegurl]

Hazegurl, would you make an opening post claiming that everybody wants it though? I'm fine with people offering their suggestions on what would make a game more appealing to them, my problem is that it is theirs opinion and may or may not coincide with mine so, please, don't use the 'we want' unless it is meant as a royal pronoun

No I wouldn't speak in "we's"  "we"  (whatever lol) cause I hate group think. However, when it comes to discussing what female gamers want. I find that no one seems to be this vehement at reminding the "Sarkeesian" types that they don't speak for all female gamers.  It's only when an opinion contridicts the other on what female gamers want that suddenly one must be reminded that they don't speak for every female gamer on the planet.  

[Grieving Natashina]

No I wouldn't speak in "we's"  "we"  (whatever lol) cause I hate group think. However, when it comes to discussing what female gamers want. I find that no one seems to be this vehement at reminding the "Sarkeesian" types that they don't speak for all female gamers.  It's only when an opinion contridicts the other on what female gamers want that suddenly one must be reminded that they don't speak for every female gamer on the planet.  

<raises hand>  I am that someone, and I have expressed this before.  In fact, that's the thing I dislike the most about some of the feminists like her, is that tone that not only are they trying to speak for me, they are also usually claiming that those women that disagree with even one or two of their points have been "brainwashed by the patriarchy."   That particular reviewer also lost me entirely when she accused BioWare of being misogynists.  Out of all the companies, really?

 

So there are those of us that tweet and post about that, but we tend to get drowned out.

[Andraste_Reborn]

Maybe I can learn some neat stuff from this thread too.  Okay, here's a honest question:  I've never really been into seeing two men together as a woman.  I have nothing against it, but it's never been an interest of mine.  May I ask what the appeal for a woman, if someone is willing?  I promise that I say that with no flames, no trolling, but since this thread does exist, I'd like to learn more about that point of view.  Is it similar to what some straight/bisexual men have mentioned about seeing two women together, that's it's beautiful and appealing?

 

Speaking as a slash fangirl of twenty years standing, that's what it boils down to for me. One man good, two men better. (Or three. Or four ... how big is this bed/other flat surface?) As far as I'm concerned, it's like getting two scoops of chocolate icecream instead of a scoop of chocolate and a scoop of vanilla. I'm not sexually attracted to women, and I'm not really interested in seeing them in my porn. Which is not to say that I don't enjoy plenty of material involving heterosexual relationships, but if we're talking about actual pornography ...

 

However, not every woman who likes slash or yaoi has the same reasons. 'Why do (some) women like slash?' is the subject of endless debate. Here are other reasons I've heard over the years.

 

1) Some women - especially women who are queer - are mainly interested in exploring queer relationships, whatever the gender of the participants. I have a bunch of lesbians friends who read and write m/m slash despite not being interested in sex with dudes themselves. (There's a persistent myth that all female slash fans are straight, which is just not true in my experience.)

 

2) Some women like slash because it's subversive and 'naughty' and that turns them on. I think that was probably a bigger factor back in the day than it is now.

 

3) Some women like slash because they don't want to be reminded of their own romantic and sexual lives in their fiction. Some of them just find het boring, some find it actively distressing for whatever reason.

 

4) Relatedly, some women want to avoid heterosexual romance tropes that they find clichéd or problematic by leaving the women out altogether. (Obviously there are other ways of doing that, and there's plenty of slash that just takes the same old tropes and sticks an extra penis on there. But I have seen this given as a reason, so into the list it goes.)

 

5) Some women like slash because the types of relationships they like are far more likely to be depicted between men in popular media. This is the other huge factor for me - my taste in porn aside, the relationships I find most interesting in the sources I write about are almost always between men. (This is pretty annoying, really, but you just don't get a lot of stories about middle-aged women fighting about politics and then trying to kill each other. Or chasing one another around for decades because one of them stole a loaf of bread.) If you want to write fanfic about buddy cops that fall in love, most of your source material will be about dudes. There's a reason The X-Files was a huge hit with a lot of writers who had previous written slash exclusively.

 

6) Some women don't like to see female characters 'competing' for a man they find attractive, but don't feel the same about other dudes. (I think this is stupid, but there you go.)  

 

So that's seven reasons off the top of my head. I imagine that there are a bunch more I've forgotten or haven't heard.     

[SardaukarElite]

(to Natashina) There is also how the "eye candy" in question may look like. To make an example; To some, a shirtless Blackwall would qualify as fanservice while to others it would qualify as fan disservice. What is appealing to some is not always appealing to others hence why what is important is often the implementation of the fanservice.

 

I don't particularly want to see shirtless Blackwall but such a scene being in game wouldn't disgust me either, you know so long as it makes some sense and usual things. Everyone likes different things so you offer what you can, I'm not sure it's really a lose-lose situation.

[Panda]

I'd advice to not speak much of Sarkeesian here, it can go to gamergate and get this whole thread closed that happened with bikini armor thread I think.

 

The thing is that when people talk about eyecandy and what they want in the game it can be against what other people want. Like the OP wants less female characters, I think the "females everywhere!"-guy would agree with her, but I don't think majority of players want to cut amount of female characters, at least here on BSN.

 

Terodil was talking about grouping up against someone earlier, but I think it's pretty natural reaction that if someone has unpopular opinion that they express strongly, that lot of people with similar thoughts will be against it. It may appear as grouping up, but there isn't any agreement or movement to group up against something on BSN, in these case at least, but some forum culture has established where people react certain ways to posts like this which usually is being against them and posting funny gifs and meme's.

 

On the eye-candy thing, it's very true that one's eye-candy can be eye-crap for someone else. I think bikini armor is one of those cases. It's hard to find balance though and I doubt everyone would ever be happy no matter what BW did in terms of fanservice and eye-candy. Personally I think DAI is quite right with what it has in this deparments.

[Grieving Natashina]

Speaking as a slash fangirl of twenty years standing, that's what it boils down to for me. One man good, two men better. (Or three. Or four ... how big is this bed/other flat surface?) As far as I'm concerned, it's like getting two scoops of chocolate icecream instead of a scoop of chocolate and a scoop of vanilla. I'm not sexually attracted to women, and I'm not really interested in seeing them in my porn. Which is not to say that I don't enjoy plenty of material involving heterosexual relationships, but if we're talking about actual pornography ...

 

However, not every woman who likes slash or yaoi has the same reasons. 'Why do (some) women like slash?' is the subject of endless debate. Here are other reasons I've heard over the years.

 

<snipped a great post for space> 

Okay, that makes a lot of sense.  I appreciate the perspective.  <hugs>  It seems like my thoughts that women like to write and see good looking men together for the sake of beauty was valid, but apparently the tip of the iceberg.

 

 That's also something that I'll admit that I should have thought of: Slashfic seems like a safe and sane way to explore not only sexuality, but gender identity as well.   I'm not trying to put words into your posts or intentions that aren't there, but I can see some folks that are gender fluid writing slashfic to gain a better understanding of themselves.  

 

My best friend of nearly 20 years is pansexual and gender fluid, though he tends more towards the female over the male, but he did used to write some short stories of m/m romances to get a better understanding of himself.   He mostly wrote them when he was younger, in his late teens to early 20s.  I'm not going to pretend that is a demographic for those that write slash, but it's something that comes to mind.  Anyone of any age could be in the middle of understanding their own sexuality, the sexuality of those closest to them, or learning more about their gender identity.  Even if it's a reaffirmation of who they are.  

 

This has been awesome.  Thanks again for putting that up.  I understand that's not those aren't the End All Be All Reasons, but I feel like I am less ignorant on the subject than I was previously.  

 

Edit: @Panda I promise that's my first and last post about that particular person.  

[Beama Beorhtost]

Just to clarify, I believe in freedom of speech (provide that doesn't invoke killing or hating on people and/or animals). As an 'old school' feminist (I mean, someone that has actually had to fight for every inch of the equality and rights that these days young women and girls take as granted) and as a gamer I find myself disagreeing with Sarkeesian as she's clearly never played a videogame in her life and tend to use clips taken out of contest (probably googled them) to enforce her re-ashed unimaginative points whilst self-promoting herself on the internet. People should have not taken the bait and she would have remain an unknown blogger with a small following like many others are.

 

As for what female gamers wants, who knows, we're all different and I feel the world is better for that. You cannot try and please everyone, and I think that as a story/game creator you shouldn't if that will lead to too many compromises on your final vision. There is always bound to be someone unhappy with the outcome but if that's what 'you' (as the creative team) have envisioned for your story than I'm fine with it, even if does not satisfy my wants for the game. Just give me a strong, good story, that's all I want, and I couldn't care less if the male NPC don't look like Brad Pitt or Keanu Reeves    

[Panda]

Okay, that makes a lot of sense.  I appreciate the perspective.  <hugs>  It seems like my thoughts that women like to write and see good looking men together for the sake of beauty was valid, but apparently the tip of the iceberg.

 

 That's also something that I'll admit that I should have thought of: Slashfic seems like a safe and sane way to explore not only sexuality, but gender identity as well.   I'm not trying to put words into your posts or intentions that aren't there, but I can see some folks that are gender fluid writing slashfic to gain a better understanding of themselves.  

 

My best friend of nearly 20 years is pansexual and gender fluid, though he tends more towards the female over the male, but he did used to write some short stories of m/m romances to get a better understanding of himself.   He mostly wrote them when he was younger, in his late teens to early 20s.  I'm not going to pretend that is a demographic for those that write slash, but it's something that comes to mind.  Anyone of any age could be in the middle of understanding their own sexuality, the sexuality of those closest to them, or learning more about their gender identity.  Even if it's a reaffirmation of who they are.  

 

This has been awesome.  Thanks again for putting that up.  I understand that's not those aren't the End All Be All Reasons, but I feel like I am less ignorant on the subject than I was previously.  

 

Edit: @Panda I promise that's my first and last post about that particular person.  

 

I'd like to add, into slash discussion, that I think one reason is that many medias don't have lot of female characters or these female characters appear boring/weak/sth else shippers don't like or they don't like chemistry or relationship with the few female characters with male characters. For me at least it's hard to find female characters I like, not so much anymore as it was when I was younger. Maybe that's also cause I have grown-up and learn to appreciate different kind of characters too.