516 réponses à ce sujet

[XMissWooX]

Or chasing one another around for decades because one of them stole a loaf of bread.

Valjean x Javert?

[Grieving Natashina]

I'd like to add, into slash discussion, that I think one reason is that many medias don't have lot of female characters or these female characters appear boring/weak/sth else shippers don't like or they don't like chemistry or relationship with the few female characters with male characters. For me at least it's hard to find female characters I like, not so much anymore as it was when I was younger. Maybe that's also cause I have grown-up and learn to appreciate different kind of characters too.

I'm the opposite I suppose, at least in some ways.  I've seen better women characters over the decades and there is more that I like now as opposed to when I was younger.  Most of my heroes growing up were men, especially given my love of metal as well as my love of comedy.  I still love and admire those men, but my perspective has been broadened by others in those fields.    

 

As a side note, I'll be personally happy to see the "dumb straight guy" stereotype go away.  The commercials and shows that stress how dumb or gullible men are (and that inevitably need a wife figure to bail them out) annoy the crap out of me.  

 

Thankfully, this all seems to be finally changing.  I've noticed that both male and female characters are gaining more traits and there is less stereotyping all around.  I'm glad to see that it appears to be getting better.  While women characters are in less traditional roles, male characters are allowed more depth of feelings and emotions than they were before.  Usually, women aren't overemotional basketcases anymore than men are non-emotional robots. I really feel this is a good time to be interested in various media, and conversations like this remind me why.  

[SpiritMuse]

I'd like to add my voice to the "OP, please don't speak for me" pile.

I am perfectly well entertained by watching women (as long as they're well-written characters and not shrill stereotypes). I really don't mind seeing so many of them. And I like types like Alistair perfectly fine.

Plus Thedas is hardly "75% women". It may seem like that but it really isn't. Wasn't there a study recently that found that people thought that the ratio of men and women in a room was equal when in fact there were only 25% or so women? Apparently people are so used to there being overwhelmingly more men than women that either their perspective is just skewed, or women stand out so much more to them (because unusual) that there seem to be more than there actually are.

The only thing that I vaguely agree with is that I'm not opposed to seeing more male eye candy.

[Felya87]

I'm very happy with what we have, and don't agree in any way with the OP. I find many of the man in DAI good looking (Solas, Cullen, Alistair, Barris, Abelas) and I love having many strong and capable women in the Inquisition. Is refreshing see my character is not the only capable woman around.

 

And there is just to look at the romance option to see that this time BioWare remembered about female (straight) gamers, puttin in Cullen, who was a fan favourite and is more good looking than Blackwall and Bull, than both with their story, and appearance, can be not very atractive to many woman. (I find Solas very good looking, but I know is not for everyone)

 

The only thing in wich BioWare can have somehow "forgot" about female gamers are regarding hairstyles, eyebrows and the dress for the ball.  but can be subjective.

[SardaukarElite]

Plus Thedas is hardly "75% women". It may seem like that but it really isn't. Wasn't there a study recently that found that people thought that the ratio of men and women in a room was equal when in fact there were only 25% or so women? Apparently people are so used to there being overwhelmingly more men than women that either their perspective is just skewed, or women stand out so much more to them (because unusual) that there seem to be more than there actually are.

 

17% I think, though don't have a source. It reminds me of a rather funny thread complaining about the over representation of women among the DA MP characters around launch when it was actually not only perfectly balanced but balanced inside each class as well. 

 

DA:I does have quite a few women as extras which is cool, but I doubt it's above 50%.

[Grieving Natashina]

17% I think, though don't have a source. It reminds me of a rather funny thread complaining about the over representation of women among the DA MP characters around launch when it was actually not only perfectly balanced but balanced inside each class as well. 

 

DA:I does have quite a few women as extras which is cool, but I doubt it's above 50%.

This is one study that was sent to me done by PBS awhile back.  I don't recall if it has the exact percentages, but it touched on much of what you're talking about.

 

http://www.pbs.org/s...rejudice/women/

[Beama Beorhtost]

If Thedas population had a 75% of women my (various) PCs would have had to emigrate after the games' (all 3 DA) introduction. Seriously, think of the bleeding competition to try and get a scrap of a man...

[Seraphim24]

<raises hand>  I am that someone, and I have expressed this before.  In fact, that's the thing I dislike the most about some of the feminists like her, is that tone that not only are they trying to speak for me, they are also usually claiming that those women that disagree with even one or two of their points have been "brainwashed by the patriarchy."   That particular reviewer also lost me entirely when she accused BioWare of being misogynists.  Out of all the companies, really?

 

So there are those of us that tweet and post about that, but we tend to get drowned out.

 

Bioware is not composed of a bunch of invulnerable demigods of invincible valor and indestructible perfection you know, it would be nice if their fans would at least acknowledge that much...

 

I can be fair and say I enjoy their games a lot more than plenty other games, and still not think they have this unparalleled insight into the human condition or whatever that they seem to think they have. I definitely think they have a modicum of crossover between being nerdy gamers and empaths, which is somewhat unusual for a gaming company, but I'd say they definitely tilt towards being nerdy gamers more than the other dimension, and that is reflected in all kinds of characterization/dialogue/story elements etc, some of which perhaps this OP picked up on in some capacity or another.

 

Anyway, I probably wouldn't nitpick nearly so much if they just toned down the rhetoric and the halo slightly.

 

As for the girl-girl and guy-guy action, well.. I think that comes down to a quantity vs quality issue.. can you just double the number of people to get double the pleasure? It seems to depend more acutely on several other factors.

[Grieving Natashina]

Um, I do know this.  You've either not seen or otherwise ignored my posts that have been very critical against BioWare and the DA team.  Especially with their poor communication with the community as of late and a lack of a community manager at the moment.  However, considering the company's overall good track record with women characters, I am allowed to think that's a silly and ridiculous accusation.   Also, I never said they had this "unparalleled insight into the human condition."  You're putting way more into my post than was there.  I said that out of all the game companies, BioWare tends to be the most inclusive when it comes to their content.  And overall, this is true.

 

I wish those that are no longer big fans of BioWare and/or of EA would realize that someone complimenting the company in one area doesn't mean they aren't critical in others. 

[Seraphim24]

Um, I do know this.  You've either not seen or otherwise ignored my posts that have been very critical against BioWare and the DA team.  Especially with their poor communication with the community as of late and a lack of a community manager at the moment.  However, considering the company's overall good track record with women characters, I am allowed to think that's a silly and ridiculous accusation.   Also, I never said they had this "unparalleled insight into the human condition."  You're putting way more into my post than was there.  I said that out of all the game companies, BioWare tends to be the most inclusive when it comes to their content.  And overall, this is true.

 

I wish those that are no longer big fans of BioWare and/or of EA would realize that someone complimenting the company in one area doesn't mean they aren't critical in others. 

 

Overall that is not true, most (many) Japanese game companies do a far better job IMO. I myself just said they have an overall good track record, but they are extremely hypersensitive to any criticism that goes beyond that as well as ignorant of other trends/possibilities/characters in media at times. I see it in every single thread that has any substantial criticism towards their storytelling or characters etc. Sure, community manager business, coding programming, heck, game design, critique away, but ever since DA2 they staked their pride and claim on those things more than any other, and consequently they do seem to have a consistent effort to end discussion on those points as being "trolling" or something of that nature.

 

This thread is really just another example, although in fairness you guys aren't completely freaking out.

[Panda]

I'm very happy with what we have, and don't agree in any way with the OP. I find many of the man in DAI good looking (Solas, Cullen, Alistair, Barris, Abelas) and I love having many strong and capable women in the Inquisition. Is refreshing see my character is not the only capable woman around.

 

And there is just to look at the romance option to see that this time BioWare remembered about female (straight) gamers, puttin in Cullen, who was a fan favourite and is more good looking than Blackwall and Bull, than both with their story, and appearance, can be not very atractive to many woman. (I find Solas very good looking, but I know is not for everyone)

 

The only thing in wich BioWare can have somehow "forgot" about female gamers are regarding hairstyles, eyebrows and the dress for the ball.  but can be subjective.

 

We can't romance Gaspard though, Bioware must hate women for not letting us get piece of that!

 

Seriously though I'd like to romance Gaspard

Or Barris.

But you can't always get what you want ^^

[Felya87]

We can't romance Gaspard though, Bioware must hate women for not letting us get piece of that!

 

Seriously though I'd like to romance Gaspard

Or Barris.

But you can't always get what you want ^^

 

Hey, I'm still mourning for the lack or a Varric romance! give me a break!

[Grieving Natashina]

Hey, I'm still mourning for the lack or a Varric romance! give me a break!

I've still got some leftover marshmellows from the Cadash/Varric ship I had to burn last year.  They're a little stale, but still tasty.  Just ignore the slightly salty flavor from the tears.

 

And if anyone thinks I'm being serious, no I never cried over Varric.  I was disappointed and moved on.  Be a hero.  Ride the Bull.  

[Octarin]

You mean this boy band for girls to drool.

 

I mean precisely this, yeah, thanks for giving me something to think about tonight. These from the new FF btw?

[Beama Beorhtost]

@Kefka - There are so many (unoficially) established conventions/stereotypes in the entertainment industries that it's much easier for a company to follow them than to break the mould. At least they're trying and be more inclusive with their stories, though sometimes in a simplistic way. I'm not the biggest fan of DA:I but at least they have been consistent in their treatment of different sexualities and genders.

[SpiritMuse]

17% I think, though don't have a source. It reminds me of a rather funny thread complaining about the over representation of women among the DA MP characters around launch when it was actually not only perfectly balanced but balanced inside each class as well.

DA:I does have quite a few women as extras which is cool, but I doubt it's above 50%.

17%! Even more extreme than I thought. And I doubt there's more than 50% women in the game, too. But even if there were, it would only be one game out of all the hundreds, thousands of games dominated by men, I think we should be able to survive that?

This is one study that was sent to me done by PBS awhile back. I don't recall if it has the exact percentages, but it touched on much of what you're talking about.

http://www.pbs.org/s...rejudice/women/

This is really interesting. Especially where it says:

"Another study reported that a male science teacher who managed to create an atmosphere in which girls and boys contributed more equally to discussion felt that he was devoting 90 per cent of his attention to the girls. And so did his male pupils. They complained vociferously that the girls were getting too much talking time."

It really is much the same thing. It seems that we're so used to women keeping a low profile in certain situations that when they do actually make an equal contribution we perceive it as way too much and overpowering.

[Terodil]

I'm still at odds with the argument "one person's eyecandy can be another person's eyesore". I mean, I grasp the theoretical meaning but not its practical application.

 

If you want to avoid eyesores entirely, you can only provide averages (my old gripe with DA:I): nothing that stands out too much, all in all unremarkable, so nobody can be offended, but nobody is really going to write home about it either. That's the worst meaning of 'compromise'.

 

Another kind of compromise is the path of offering choice. Obviously companies don't have enough money and time to offer perfect permutations of every conceivable combination of character traits, but there are ways around it. IB is one of these cases for me: I appreciate people like him for his build, for his personality, for the way he dresses... I don't really care, because I personally don't like him very much, but I'm happy that these people have a character they like and that they welcome into their default party. He is a good option, and even if he is an eyesore for some, they're welcome to simply not pick him. Like I do.

 

I don't get why people are so up in arms when others request other characters they'd like. If you consider them an 'eye-sore', then simply don't pick them. Easy. Nobody is forcing you to run around with them in your party.

 

Another option if money gets scarce is to include the motifs in an environment that's alive; I'm thinking of the classic example of the ME cantinas. Why not have a couple of guys kissing passionately in the inn, or maybe some barracks, perhaps with some background convo? If you don't like it, look elsewhere. Others may be pleased and thankful for just having that little moment of enjoyment.

[SardaukarElite]

This is one study that was sent to me done by PBS awhile back.  I don't recall if it has the exact percentages, but it touched on much of what you're talking about.

 

http://www.pbs.org/s...rejudice/women/

 

Similar. I dug up the article I remember which was one by Cara Ellison on the lack of women in LA Noir compared to contemporary noir films. I haven't crawled through the links enough to find the study in question though.

[Seraphim24]

@Kefka - There are so many (unoficially) established conventions/stereotypes in the entertainment industries that it's much easier for a company to follow them than to break the mould. At least they're trying and be more inclusive with their stories, though sometimes in a simplistic way. I'm not the biggest fan of DA:I but at least they have been consistent in their treatment of different sexualities and genders.

 

I said I agree overall they've had some interesting and good things going on in various aspects, that's great and all, but I do not seem them as the best of the best or perfect or any such thing. At a minimum, the mere suggestion they might have issues in that area of story and such that they are so proud of shouldn't automatically trigger a parade of trolling accusations or ignorance. Or rather, they can, but it might lower people's opinion of what they can handle.

 

I can completely agree with your comment and also the OP in this case, for example, they're not at all incompatible.

 

I mean precisely this, yeah, thanks for giving me something to think about tonight. These from the new FF btw?

 

Speaking of Japanese gaming companies and to prove my point...

 

Another option if money gets scarce is to include the motifs in an environment that's alive; I'm thinking of the classic example of the ME cantinas. Why not have a couple of guys kissing passionately in the inn, or maybe some barracks, perhaps with some background convo? If you don't like it, look elsewhere. Others may be pleased and thankful for just having that little moment of enjoyment.

 

The thing about guys kissing though is it's still a quantity thing perhaps... would you rather have two unattractive guys kissing or one attractive guy doing nothing? Something to consider I suppose...

[Beama Beorhtost]

It is just the inate envy man have for woman since, although they tried and believe Aristotle b***t, they always knew that we are the life giver and they're just contributors

 

Ok, I will leave the feminist crap aside and quote the old proverb (my grandma couldn't stop quoting it!) on my way back to work: Behind every great man there is an even greater woman.

[Felya87]

I've still got some leftover marshmellows from the Cadash/Varric ship I had to burn last year.  They're a little stale, but still tasty.  Just ignore the slightly salty flavor from the tears.

 

And if anyone thinks I'm being serious, no I never cried over Varric.  I was disappointed and moved on.  Be a hero.  Ride the Bull.  

 

I've ride almost all the guys in DAI, but I'm still drawn to the chest hair...

I'll stay here, hoping for more bromance with Varric and for another great dwarf character in future games to sweep my dwarfettes off their feet.

[Dreamer]

Men and women are equal and should be treated thus. Period.

[Fredward]

What exactly is the OP asking for here?

[Seraphim24]

What exactly is the OP asking for here?

 

More strong females, sexy males, and guys kissing each other.

[Grieving Natashina]

What exactly is the OP asking for here?

Either less female characters, more male characters or both.  I'm thinking it's both.  Otherwise, I've been kinda ignoring the OP and reading the rest of the conversation.  Much more interesting.  

 

Oh and I don't care how "hot" the men in the latest Final Fantasy game are supposed to be.  All but one of them have pretty much the exact same face.  They do zero for me.  If this game sucked as bad as FFXIII did, I'm not buying it.  I didn't buy XIII-2 either.  The women in those games were hot enough and I enjoy good looking women, but the story was awful, the combat laughable and the folks that complain that DA:I is too linear never dealt with The Hallway.  Those boys could be my exact type and that still wouldn't matter.  I'm happy for Final Fantasy fans that enjoy the boy band up there, but I'm too leery of yet another crappy FF game.