516 réponses à ce sujet

[Terodil]

The thing about guys kissing though is it's still a quantity thing perhaps... would you rather have two unattractive guys kissing or one attractive guy doing nothing? Something to consider I suppose...

Uh wait, why unattractive? why can't they all be attractive? oh right, representation

Also, personally, I'd much rather have two attractive gals kissing.

But my point is that there should be a little something for everybody in there, as long as it's reasonably feasible and seems unforced, and that I think the argument 'but it's going to offend some people' does not hold water (or at least should not).

[Seraphim24]

Either less female characters, more male characters or both.  I'm thinking it's both.  Otherwise, I've been kinda ignoring the OP and reading the rest of the conversation.  Much more interesting.  

 

Oh and I don't care how "hot" the men in the latest Final Fantasy game are supposed to be.  All but one of them have pretty much the exact same face.  They do zero for me.  If this game sucked as bad as FFXIII did, I'm not buying it.  I didn't buy XIII-2 either.  The women in those games were hot enough and I enjoy good looking women, but the story was awful, the combat laughable and the folks that complain that DA:I is too linear never dealt with The Hallway.  Those boys could be my exact type and that still wouldn't matter.  I'm happy for Final Fantasy fans that enjoy the boy band up there, but I'm too leery of yet another crappy FF game.

 

Well you should try XIV

 

Plus I'm usually thinking of FFI-X really as far as FF goes, but also any variety of other Japanese games though historically they were probably better (Resident Evil, Langrisser, Lunar, Lufia, Ys series, Shadow Hearts,). Order of Ecclesia had Shanoa who was awesome, really almost any Tri-Ace game (which has done combat better than FF in the 3D era for some time).

 

Any variety of those games had pretty spirited balance between male-female characters that most people found fairly desirable I think.

 

But my point is that there should be a little something for everybody in there, as long as it's reasonably feasible and seems unforced, and that I think the argument 'but it's going to offend some people' does not hold water (or at least should not).

 

Yeah.. I guess my point is just people should really just ask the obvious questions. Like, people often consume porn or slash (which I now understand thanks to wikipedia), they also play video games that have no pornographic aspects to them, why not combine the two? What is the hold up?

 

I don't have any moral or philosophical qualms with having a bunch of guys making out in the middle of a video game, but as the discussion earlier was going at, what does it truly add?

 

As for less weepy or villanous females and less uptight and overly noble guys I can definitely get behind that. I think Blackwall would of been a lot more interesting if he revealed he was just really still a psycho and had never repented and then turned into demon form or something.

[Beama Beorhtost]

Dreamer I keep forgetting that on the internet we're all Elkors, no matter the amount of smiley we use.

 

In an ideal world we should all be equal, regardless of colour, gender and sexuality, and many western countries in theory work on such principle. Unfortunately though, reality is different and for every step forwards that we've taken there had been at least two made backwards (as the various online petitions I sign almost every day seem to show). I won't give up on the issue in real life but when I play a game I'd like to be entertained and not having to think about RL problems.

 

Now I really should go back to work before someone realize that I've not been writing journal summaries...

[TaHol]

 

 

Maybe I can learn some neat stuff from this thread too.  Okay, here's a honest question:  I've never really been into seeing two men together as a woman.  I have nothing against it, but it's never been an interest of mine.  May I ask what the appeal for a woman, if someone is willing?  I promise that I say that with no flames, no trolling, but since this thread does exist, I'd like to learn more about that point of view.  Is it similar to what some straight/bisexual men have mentioned about seeing two women together, that's it's beautiful and appealing?

I think I'm qualified to anwer this. I try, because I see your question is serious and you are really interested to find out what it might be. Remember, this is only me, I do not speak on behalf of other women, and I'm not very good in putting my feelings in words.

 

Semi-truht: I have no idea. Thruth: I don't want to go there, but because I wanted to answer in my behalf, I have to.

 

I have always liked to play as a male. I like to look at men, and I can relate to male-character better. This is not just a shallowness of my part (=pretty men), but I have real difficulties to play female character. I have done only one female-Shepard, to make the Garrus-romance video, and believe me, if I could have made it M/M, I would. When I begin my gaming "career", I actually did not know I'm like this. I just noticed that if I could choose my characters gender, I was much more "at home" with a male.  All of my characters are "me", I don't give them spesific roles and I don't head-canon. They do what I would do. I just feel that male-characters are more "me" than females.

 

I have always known my ratio of masculine energy is high (this has nothing to do with looks, mind you, I look very feminine), people have told me I have "mans brains", yadda yadda. Still, I don't see that I was a tom-girl either, maybe I'm just a very difficult person to put in any locker. Sometimes I did joke that I'm a "gay-man in womans body". But really, I never had any identity crisis with sexuality, I am 100% hetero and like men very much So that is some basics about me as a person, and maybe some women can put themselves in my shoes.

 

Then comes a difficult part: romances. Remember that I am hetero. My male-character is actually me. I don't do women. So I do men. This would be an easy, and almost honest answer. But then there is this: I do like yaoi-culture too, not in obsessed way and I'm very picky, I do like to read M/M-fanfictions. I DO NOT watch gay-porn etc. My first romance was Warden/Zevran, and I was actually very awkward when doing it, but then I just realized it felt really romantic. So my Very Honest Answer After Loads Of Soul-searching: it is not abot sex, it is about romantic feelings. So it is definitely not the same thing as when men dream about looking at two women doing eachother. That is about sex. They don't dream about love and everlasting companionship when they look at two women doing it. When my males have a M/M-romance they definitely will love eachother until the end of time and ride in to sunset with unicorns lol. Maybe it is my little moment of daydreaming and escape from reality where relationships seem to be bloody messy and people are only after themselves (I'm a little jaded, sorry).

 

I think there are studies about yaoi-culture in general, but I don't have any links. Remeber that yaoi originates from Japan. Girls who were interviewed said that they don't believe there can be real, emotional love between man and woman, because relationship is always tied to getting something out of it: family, children, economical reasons. They believe that the love they want to have THEMSELVES can exist only between two men (or women, there is yuri-culture too) because two men can't have children or marry, so only reason to be together is pure love. I think this thought-pattern is understandable, and might lie somewhere under for us (females) who tend to be drawn in M/M. I really believe it is not abot sex, no matter how graphical the sex in yaoi or fanfictions can be. Women tend to be emotional about sex. Not all, but many.

 

I have no idea if this made things any clearer, I'm not good in explaining things, and I tend to shy away from my own feelings so it makes things even more difficult. And again, this is how I see things and I don't speak for others.

 

I want to add that ability to be a "man" in my games has given me a lot of self-knowledge and acceptance in general.

[Grieving Natashina]

@Kefka I appreciate the recommendation, but no thank you.  My MMO days are mostly behind me and I'm just too old school with most of my RPGs.  This is only my opinion, and I'm not claiming this is the case for everyone, but an online Final Fantasy game just doesn't feel like Final Fantasy at all.  I have friends of mine that played both XI and enjoy XIV that have loved the series for as long as I have, but it didn't feel right for me.

 

Eh, I can't in good faith compare the JRPG companies with Western ones as far as progression.  For starters, the cultural differences are way too vast.  The Japanese have a both uniquely more and less restrictive outlook on sex.  They don't see sexual characters as something that should be treated as taboo when it comes to much of their media .  Gag gifts of a sexual nature are more common.  However, their views and ideas about actual sex are pretty restrictive, surprisingly so.  

 

Also, there's the way unfortunately most Western companies tend to write sexier females.   For instance, one of the biggest examples of a culture difference would be Bayonetta.  Japanese games have had a long history of balancing sexiness with good characters, and Bayonetta is awesome as a result.  I don't think Bayonetta would be nearly as good of a character in the hands of a Western company.  It would be too easy to take her looks and attitude and make her more "weak" or suppressed.  Or worse, they could take the more sexualized aspects of her character and exaggerate to the point where much of the detail behind who she is lost.   I think it's a difference in cultural attitudes and it's something to keep in mind when discussing topics like this. 

 

I will still stand by my thoughts that BioWare is one of the best Western game companies out there when it comes to male and female inclusion.  I really think that both Japanese and Western companies should come out of their respective cultural bubbles and talk to each other.  I think there is room for very sexy characters like Bayonetta as well as less intentionally sexy characters like Cassandra and Aveline as well.  

[jlb524]

I'm female and think this game needs more women in it.

Like, all women and then it would be perfect.

[Terodil]

-snip-

My brain just melted! I'm *exactly* like that (except I'm a guy, so need to reverse m/f everywhere), including feeling more 'at home' with a female protagonist etc.

Thank you. I can't thank your post because my quota is already exceeded for today, but if I could thank it a dozen times, I would.

[TaHol]

My brain just melted! I'm *exactly* like that (except I'm a guy, so need to reverse m/f everywhere), including feeling more 'at home' with a female protagonist etc.

Thank you. I can't thank your post because my quote is already exceeded for today, but if I could thank it a dozen times, I would.

Thank you so much! It was difficult to put in words and this is something I would never even try to explain out from gaming community. You might just have very high ratio of female-energy. It does not make one homosexual, I never had any crisis about being a woman. High ratio of masculine energy just makes me act like a...man? (we all have masculine/feminine energy in us)

[Grieving Natashina]

@TaHol  Awesome post, and thanks for the insight.  I do appreciate it and it makes sense.  It's given me a lot to think about.  The question was sincere from someone totally on the outside of that culture and I thank you for answering in kind.    

 

I know those opinions are subjective and I know you're not speaking for everyone that writes slashfic, but I feel like I have a better understanding about where some people might be coming from.  <hugs>

[Felya87]

Either less female characters, more male characters or both.  I'm thinking it's both.  Otherwise, I've been kinda ignoring the OP and reading the rest of the conversation.  Much more interesting.  

 

Oh and I don't care how "hot" the men in the latest Final Fantasy game are supposed to be.  All but one of them have pretty much the exact same face.  They do zero for me.  If this game sucked as bad as FFXIII did, I'm not buying it.  I didn't buy XIII-2 either.  The women in those games were hot enough and I enjoy good looking women, but the story was awful, the combat laughable and the folks that complain that DA:I is too linear never dealt with The Hallway.  Those boys could be my exact type and that still wouldn't matter.  I'm happy for Final Fantasy fans that enjoy the boy band up there, but I'm too leery of yet another crappy FF game.

 

Brrr.... FFXIII... a long uninteresting corridor, where to know something of the characters (all flat and forgettable) you have to read a codex. I liked only the shirtless Snow of the entire game.

[Grieving Natashina]

Brrr.... FFXIII... a long uninteresting corridor, where to know something of the characters (all flat and forgettable) you have to read a codex. I liked only the shirtless Snow of the entire game.

I couldn't even get into Snow.  Sure he's cute, but if he said "Sarah!" one...more...time.

[Terodil]

So it is definitely not the same thing as when men dream about looking at two women doing eachother. That is about sex. They don't dream about love and everlasting companionship when they look at two women doing it. When my males have a M/M-romance they definitely will love eachother until the end of time and ride in to sunset with unicorns lol.

Hm. Sorry, I just read over your post again and this bit I actually do not agree with. It's a bit sweeping of a statement. When I said I'm exactly like what you described, I'd include this as well. My female protagonists definitely are in it for the long haul too, and while I do occasionally enjoy the sex fantasy of their relationship (denying it would be lying), it's definitely not the more important part of their relationship, let alone the only one.

So yeah. Not all guys are all about sex.

[Seraphim24]

@Kefka I appreciate the recommendation, but no thank you.  My MMO days are mostly behind me and I'm just too old school with most of my RPGs.  This is only my opinion, and I'm not claiming this is the case for everyone, but an online Final Fantasy game just doesn't feel like Final Fantasy at all.  I have friends of mine that played both XI and enjoy XIV that have loved the series for as long as I have, but it didn't feel right for me.

 

Eh, I can't in good faith compare the JRPG companies with Western ones as far as progression.  For starters, the cultural differences are way too vast.  The Japanese have a both uniquely more and less restrictive outlook on sex.  They don't see sexual characters as something that should be treated as taboo when it comes to much of their media .  Gag gifts of a sexual nature are more common.  However, their views and ideas about actual sex are pretty restrictive, surprisingly so.  

 

Also, there's the way unfortunately most Western companies tend to write sexier females.   For instance, one of the biggest examples of a culture difference would be Bayonetta.  Japanese games have had a long history of balancing sexiness with good characters, and Bayonetta is awesome as a result.  I don't think Bayonetta would be nearly as good of a character in the hands of a Western company.  It would be too easy to take her looks and attitude and make her more "weak" or suppressed.  Or worse, they could take the more sexualized aspects of her character and exaggerate to the point where much of the detail behind who she is lost.   I think it's a difference in cultural attitudes and it's something to keep in mind when discussing topics like this. 

 

I will still stand by my thoughts that BioWare is one of the best Western game companies out there when it comes to male and female inclusion.  I really think that both Japanese and Western companies should come out of their respective cultural bubbles and talk to each other.  I think there is room for very sexy characters like Bayonetta as well as less intentionally sexy characters like Cassandra and Aveline as well.  

 

I don't know if I would view a restrictive IRL attitude towards sex as necessarily a sign of being regressive.  I think more monogamous attitudes towards sex is misconceived as a sign of regression when I don't really see that as a case, which is an idea I have in the demisexuality thread but it's kind of separate. At any rate, I think it can make perfect sense why there is a disconnect there between IRL and the media, it possibility reflects a confidence about what sex is or should be, such that they feel ok appearing all experimental and such.

 

I don't think it's really relevant though to be honest, in terms of the emotional connection and sense that like whoa, these people really hit hard at the things I care about I stand by my thoughts that Japan does it the best.

 

And well you didn't say "western" the first time.   Although.. I did think The Witcher 2 (possibly also Witcher 1) has all three Dragon Ages beat but I guess that triggers that whole discussion which would lead this all far astray. Although unlike people in that discussion I don't really think the differences are that vast necessarily. Er possibly also Remember Me... well anyway... as far as (western) gaming compani(s), they're pretty cool, sure. I think my biggest problem is I think they've been going in the wrong direction... BG >  DA IMO.... plus DA:O > 2 and I... although I seemed better than 2.

[SpiritMuse]

on the internet we're all Elkors, no matter the amount of smiley we use.

I never realized how true this is.

[Felya87]

I couldn't even get into Snow.  Sure he's cute, but if he said "Sarah!" one...more...time.

 

I know.  it was hard finish that game... but I always finish a game I buy. Always. 

[Teddie Sage]

I couldn't even get into Snow.  Sure he's cute, but if he said "Sarah!" one...more...time.

Serah. Snow was dumb but meh, I thought he was better in Lightning Returns. 

[TaHol]

Hm. Sorry, I just read over your post again and this bit I actually do not agree with. It's a bit sweeping of a statement. When I said I'm exactly like what you described, I'd include this as well. My female protagonists definitely are in it for the long haul too, and while I do occasionally enjoy the sex fantasy of their relationship (denying it would be lying), it's definitely not the more important part of their relationship, let alone the only one.

So yeah. Not all guys are all about sex.

Of course! Why I said it like that, was because I had Natashinas question (do women look gay-sex like men look lesbian-sex aka search for stimulation) in my mind so I generalized. But you are ONLY man who I have met who is, well, like you are, and every other man has said to me OMG hot lezzies I want to be between them lol. So sorry. I did not mean every man in this universe, it was an accident WRITING ALL THIS IN ENGLISH IS TAKING ME TO MY INTELLECTUAL LIMITS BELIEVE ME.

[carlo angelo]

Uh wait, why unattractive? why can't they all be attractive? oh right, representation

Also, personally, I'd much rather have two attractive gals kissing.

But my point is that there should be a little something for everybody in there, as long as it's reasonably feasible and seems unforced, and that I think the argument 'but it's going to offend some people' does not hold water (or at least should not).

 

Not to read you or anything, but I sort of "bristle" that you'd chalk it up to "representation" as a reason for there to be physically "unattractive" characters, when it's really more than that. 

 

I seriously have no qualms about "unattractive" characters so long as the story behind them sells it.

 

I'd be pretty keen on guys macking on each other first and foremost, but titillation can only get you so far until it becomes, well... redundant? It's probably just me, but while I can appreciate beauty, when I read or see a character who is written or looks "unconventional", it's kind of like a breath of fresh air. I've read quite a bit of independently released gay fiction, and the heroes are almost always these attractive men. Fair enough. But when it becomes so hammered in the prose that they're these Adonises, it becomes a bit "much". I'd be relying on imaginative eye-candy, than actual deep and meaningful chemistry between the two characters to keep me interested.

 

Same thing with video games (as well as other forms of storytelling)- all well and good if the characters are nice to look at, but if that's all that they are, there's nothing really hooking me in to make me want to cheer them on and ship them together. Chemistry and story matters to me more than appearances, although I won't completely rule out good looks altogether.

 

 

So yeah. Not all guys are all about sex.

 

Consider me one of their numbers. I mean, there's nothing wrong with a hefty sex drive, but if it gets "too much", then I'm out. I actually chose the "chaste" route with Dorian's romance, because his reaction entertained me more than his rear end (which was nice, but I'm not into that kind of romance).

 

 

Brrr.... FFXIII... a long uninteresting corridor, where to know something of the characters (all flat and forgettable) you have to read a codex. I liked only the shirtless Snow of the entire game.

 

God, I got that game whilst I was still big on SquareEnix years ago. Big mistake.

[Grieving Natashina]

I know.  it was hard finish that game... but I always finish a game I buy. Always. 

I couldn't do it.  I hit 3 hours in, told myself I could be playing a better game and put it down.  Haven't touched it since.  I have trouble finishing XII because I found that unoriginal and uninspired, but that game has a lot of fans.  I still haven't been able to finish it to this day, even though my love of Gideon Emery's voice is very strong.  I don't like to offend any FF fans more than I usually do, so I tend to stay quiet on that front.

[Namea]

At least most of Bioware's female characters are well written and three dimensional, not just giant boobed man-fodder that exist to throw themselves at a male PC.

Pertaining to your post however...what you really mean is "HOT male characters." Isn't it?

 

There are lots of interesting male characters that are unique and really cool in all the games you mentioned. I think your biggest beef is that they aren't eye-candy enough for you. 

 

Soooo how does that make you any better than the guys complaining that Cass isn't pretty enough or that none of the characters wear revealing enough outfits? 

[Terodil]

Soooo how does that make you any better than the guys complaining that Cass isn't pretty enough or that none of the characters wear revealing enough outfits?

It doesn't. But does it make her bad?

[Octarin]

Is this thread still alive? Wow. I'm amazed. 

[Grieving Natashina]

Is this thread still alive? Wow. I'm amazed. 

And it's been a pretty productive conversation overall, at least from what I've seen.  Crazier things have happened.  I mean, just look at the boob plate thread!  A thoughtful intelligent conversation that came out of a rather...passionate OP.  Much of the same is happening here too, even with posters that disagree.  It's a nice change of pace.  

[Octarin]

And it's been a pretty productive conversation overall, at least from what I've seen.  Crazier things have happened.  I mean, just look at the boob plate thread!  A thoughtful intelligent conversation that came out of a rather...passionate OP.  Much of the same is happening here too, even with posters that disagree.  It's a nice change of pace.  

 

Maybe because the OP never did reply.

[SardaukarElite]

Soooo how does that make you any better than the guys complaining that Cass isn't pretty enough or that none of the characters wear revealing enough outfits? 

 

Well they haven't singled out one man in the game to criticise the appearance of, repeatedly call him a woman, question that any normal straight woman could find him attractive and claim that his design is artistically and scientifically flawed, for starters.