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Ah, the old quick level up exploit was fixed


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#51
EnemySpinach

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Let's start with the definition of cheating.  http://www.merriam-w...tionary/cheat. Let me explain this once again in the simplest way I can think of.  Cheating does not exist in the absence of a law or rule clearly stating that you are forbidden to do something.  Let's take boxing as an example.  Boxers aren't allowed to use elbow blows against their opponents.  Violating this rule will result in a point deduction.  Repeated violations of this rule will result in disqualification from the match, and possibly a permanent ban from the sport.  Now let's go back to the world of DAMP.  Up until the release of Dragon Slayer, there was no rule that clearly stated character switching wasn't allowed from Bioware, the company that runs the game like you said.  There are no violations when there aren't laws to be violated.  Clear?

 

In the world we all live in rules change.  What was once considered unacceptable a century ago could very well be the norm today.  A decade ago a dude legally marrying another dude was unheard of and gay couples were often looked upon with disgust.  But things changed, and while society is torn between the old ways and the new, five years from now things will most likely have shifted in favor of the increasing majority who support gay marriage.

I need to point out one massive fallacy with that argument. One that every cheater overlooks. Absence of a specific rule does not exempt one from repercussions in the event that it is an obvious exploit that breaks the established norms of the game. In every game that is actively moderated, abusing exploits are every bit as bannable as actively hacking, because you're still playing outside the rules of the game to gain an unfair advantage over the legitimate players.

In fact, here is Origin's Terms of Service. If you peruse Section 11, "Rules of Conduct," you can find...

You may violate the Terms of Service if, as determined by EA in its sole discretion, you:
...
...
- Promote, encourage or take part in any activity involving hacking, cracking, phishing, taking advantage of exploits or cheats and/or distribution of counterfeit software and/or virtual currency/items.
...
...
- Use and communicate exploits and/or cheats.
...
...
- Abuse or exploit bugs, undocumented features, design errors or problems in the game.

 

 

So yes. Three seperate mentions of exploits being bannable offenses. And since you need to agree to Origin's TOS to play, you cannot claim ignorance, and no tears will be shed over your denial. Exploit abuse is cheating. When will the internet grow the hell up and learn?
 

Don't get me wrong. Sometimes, I get that you could realize mid match, "wow, this team isn't working, I'll be back in a minute, I'll bring another class instead." There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, and if you happened to get extra experience, oh well, it's not like you were deliberately exploiting it. But people who regularly did it were indeed shamelessly exploiting a loophole in the system, and that is why Bioware has not stated that you can't change characters, but instead removed the exploit. Because it was indeed an exploit, and one that was being abused maliciously.


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#52
DrakeHasNoFlow

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I got this feeling there are people who play video games who never took a course on ethics and morality. Because it's obviously evident there is lack of character in some players.
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#53
Angelus_de_Mortiel

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I got this feeling there are people who play video games who never took a course on ethics and morality. Because it's obviously evident there is lack of character in some players.

 

Morality is a subjective view of events or society, and varies greatly from one person/culture to the next. There are no "courses" on morality, except if studying the various permutations of it through various cultures from an anthropological standpoint. Or you are going to a parochial school.

 

Regardless of that, you are recusing and denouncing the character of another person based on your personal view where it is obvious you carry a strong bias. Attacking people based on a bias or prejudice is often considered "immoral" and "unethical". Just pointing that out.

 

I only bring this up because I have long been a proponent of a positive atmosphere here, and I have seen where your line of thinking leads. It's never a good place. The exploit is fixed. You can express that you view the act as cheating if you wish, but be cautious when you start injecting you own personal "morality" as the standard and passing judgement on the character of other people. Trust me, that never leads to a good place.


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#54
McPartyson

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Morality is a subjective view of events or society, and varies greatly from one person/culture to the next. There are no "courses" on morality, except if studying the various permutations of it through various cultures from an anthropological standpoint. Or you are going to a parochial school.

 

Regardless of that, you are recusing and denouncing the character of another person based on your personal view where it is obvious you carry a strong bias. Attacking people based on a bias or prejudice is often considered "immoral" and "unethical". Just pointing that out.

 

I only bring this up because I have long been a proponent of a positive atmosphere here, and I have seen where your line of thinking leads. It's never a good place. The exploit is fixed. You can express that you view the act as cheating if you wish, but be cautious when you start injecting you own personal "morality" as the standard and passing judgement on the character of other people. Trust me, that never leads to a good place.

 

Very well said.



#55
hanoobken

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I need to point out one massive fallacy with that argument. One that every cheater overlooks. Absence of a specific rule does not exempt one from repercussions in the event that it is an obvious exploit that breaks the established norms of the game. In every game that is actively moderated, abusing exploits are every bit as bannable as actively hacking, because you're still playing outside the rules of the game to gain an unfair advantage over the legitimate players.

In fact, here is Origin's Terms of Service. If you peruse Section 11, "Rules of Conduct," you can find...

You may violate the Terms of Service if, as determined by EA in its sole discretion, you:
...
...
- Promote, encourage or take part in any activity involving hacking, cracking, phishing, taking advantage of exploits or cheats and/or distribution of counterfeit software and/or virtual currency/items.
...
...
- Use and communicate exploits and/or cheats.
...
...
- Abuse or exploit bugs, undocumented features, design errors or problems in the game.

 

 

So yes. Three seperate mentions of exploits being bannable offenses. And since you need to agree to Origin's TOS to play, you cannot claim ignorance, and no tears will be shed over your denial. Exploit abuse is cheating. When will the internet grow the hell up and learn?
 

Don't get me wrong. Sometimes, I get that you could realize mid match, "wow, this team isn't working, I'll be back in a minute, I'll bring another class instead." There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, and if you happened to get extra experience, oh well, it's not like you were deliberately exploiting it. But people who regularly did it were indeed shamelessly exploiting a loophole in the system, and that is why Bioware has not stated that you can't change characters, but instead removed the exploit. Because it was indeed an exploit, and one that was being abused maliciously.

I thought the ToS might come up sooner or later.  You've made excellent points and I thank you.  Exploits are indeed bannable offenses.  Let's sit down for a minute and discuss these points in detail.  Correct me if I am wrong but from what I've gathered so far from your statement is that every exploit, no matter how small or how it is used is inexcusable and bannable.  Let me give you my thoughts on why specific rules/laws are needed before any form of punishment is given.

 

- Abuse or exploit bugs, undocumented features, design errors or problems in the game.

 

These are some things that everyone, in one way or another, is guilty of.  I have specifically highlighted design errors.

 

1.  Font room camping exploit - Every player prior to the fix, especially those who topped the leader boards very early on and are probably still there today, are guilty of this.  I wouldn't believe anyone for one second if they claimed that they had never exploited this design flaw.  This was the norm when I first started playing DAMP.  Every lobby I joined on every difficulty was doing this.  For those who don't know what this was, the door in the font room leading into zone five used to remain open after planting the flag.  This led players to use the corridor/door as a choke point, funneling enemies by the dozens with very little danger of getting flanked.  Some would even save the font for critical moments to replenish their HP.  This led to easy, successful extractions resulting in countless promotions.  For those who could pull it off on perilous, it was a huge advantage.  The players who arrived after the fix will never get this advantage while all the people who gained much from it remain on the leader boards.   Bioware, several months later, introduced a fix stating, and I'm paraphrasing from memory: it was clearly a design flaw and that they never intended the font room to be used in such a manner.  In other words, it was an exploit. 

 

Bioware fixed it instead of punishing the people who exploited this bad design.  To most people, myself included, this was a strategic use of the map.  I don't recall anybody ever crying for people on the leader boards to be banned for using this exploit.  (Or maybe there were, I'm not sure).

 

I bring this up because this thread about the "switching exploit" to gain promotions.  The main people complaining obviously have some sort of stake in the leader boards, and claim to be saints that have never used any exploits of any form to their advantage.  Frankly, that is BS.  At the same time they also cry for bans/permanent stat dropping, as if they have never knowingly or otherwise, used any form of exploit.  I say knowingly or otherwise because you mentioned "you cannot claim ignorance, and no tears will be shed over your denial".  Now, if we were to enforce the "every exploit is a bannable offense" rule from the ToS, DAMP servers would be pretty empty.  Like the font room exploit, this has been fixed without anyone getting banned.  To the people who used this, it was a strategic use of their time and effort.  And yet here we are on this thread crying about something that has already been fixed. 

 

2.  AFK players - This, in my opinion, is one of the worst exploits in the game.  If a player with or without his party's consent decides to AFK resulting in free XP gain, free gold, free items from treasure rooms, free agent completion, he/she is exploiting yet another design flaw.  We were never intended to gain anything for free regardless whether the party members agree to the person's AFK'ing or not.  Bioware has taken several steps to remedy this problem, but until now remains not entirely fixed.  Kicking is the first option, but communication is sorely needed and not everyone has a mic or is using voice chat.  The "Everyone at the flag" fix only requires the person to walk towards the flag and continue to AFK after the flag has been planted.

 

3.  HoK bug exploits - Most of the players guilty of this can trigger this exploit at will, and believe me I've seen many and yet none get banned for it.  Necromancer's Spirit Mark - I have seen players use this exploit to great effect, bypassing the downed state mechanic, bringing them back life even after exceeding the maximum number of times a player can be downed.  You don't even need to revive them.  They will even come back from the fade with it on their own.  It's kind of hilarious actually watching Necromancers charge in, die and come back to life, over and over.  I don't know if anything has been done to fix this yet.

 

Other classes that can use the HoK exploits a little less effectively include the Elementalist through fire DoTs, the Alchemist and Hunter through mines and poison cloud.  The archer can do it too but it is so random that it cannot be considered an exploit.  I'm not going to go into detail on how these exploits are triggered.  A smart player can set up the right conditions for that to happen.  I've read threads in the past with people offering advice on how to bypass the downed state mechanic using HoK items.  That brings us to this point - Use and communicate exploits and/or cheats.  Anyone who communicated this and all those who have used it is guilty of exploiting the game and can be banned at any given time should Bioware wish it.  But they haven't.  I'm sure they'll fix it instead, someday.

 

 

There are countless other bug/exploits that need fixing.  Some of them have already been patched/tweaked.

 

 

- Promote, encourage or take part in any activity involving hacking, cracking, phishing, taking advantage of exploits or cheats and/or distribution of counterfeit software and/or virtual currency/items.

 

For this I've only seen a few accusations thrown here and there, nothing substantial.

 

My point is this: everyone in this game at some point has broken several, if not all rules, willingly or unwillingly, consciously or otherwise.  While some players may recognize an exploit, some players will see it as a feature working as intended.  This is why there is a need for specific rules/laws because the ToS is vague at best.  We cannot choose which exploit is acceptable and which isn't if we were to follow your suggestion.

 

 

That said, my brain is shutting down due to lack of sleep.  I realized after proof reading this that I used the word "fix" so many times, and I can't think of any synonyms at the moment.  English is not my first language so I apologize for anything anyone may find offensive. 



#56
hanoobken

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Morality is a subjective view of events or society, and varies greatly from one person/culture to the next. There are no "courses" on morality, except if studying the various permutations of it through various cultures from an anthropological standpoint. Or you are going to a parochial school.

 

Regardless of that, you are recusing and denouncing the character of another person based on your personal view where it is obvious you carry a strong bias. Attacking people based on a bias or prejudice is often considered "immoral" and "unethical". Just pointing that out.

 

I only bring this up because I have long been a proponent of a positive atmosphere here, and I have seen where your line of thinking leads. It's never a good place. The exploit is fixed. You can express that you view the act as cheating if you wish, but be cautious when you start injecting you own personal "morality" as the standard and passing judgement on the character of other people. Trust me, that never leads to a good place.

Welcome back Mortiel.



#57
Nintendali

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Groups who used this exploit were at a disadvantage, actually. It takes more time to wait on players to leave and come back than it does to simply carry a level 1. Use of the exploit didn't reduce the number of games required to reach level 20. Taking longer to complete matches means taking longer to get that prestige point.

 

The availability of friends to play private perilous matches with on a regular basis is the single biggest advantage to attaining, and maintaining, leaderboard status, imo.



#58
Laforgus

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You guys are still at it?

 

All i see is a group of of people commenting about things they didn't do and they have no a single idea.

 

people says: exploitexploitexploitexploitexploitexploitexploitexploitexploitexploitexploitexploitexploitexploitexploitexploitx100 

 

But they forgot that the exp was already earned by the player, so it was not an exploit, it was part of the game to leave and come back with another character. If its done NOW, it IS a exploit, because systematically you can not do it.

 

Those who knows how to play can run with a Perilous Team with a lv 1 character and survive, i am one of those, the only thing that changed was the "Rules of the Game" by the devs, and on all times we have played with them. You cant say "its a exploit to freeze VC" if its programed to do that then its part of the game.



#59
GreatBlueHeron

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False. Bioware didn't intend for people to switch out their 20's for 1's. You earned exp for the lvl 20 character you played, NOT the lvl. 1 you switched in. The ones who can run a lvl 1 in perilous now are the ones who've used the exploit to buff their stats. Very few legit players leveled to get to the point of being able to play a lvl 1 in perilous.
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#60
Laforgus

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False. Bioware didn't intend for people to switch out their 20's for 1's. You earned exp for the lvl 20 character you played, NOT the lvl. 1 you switched in. The ones who can run a lvl 1 in perilous now are the ones who've used the exploit to buff their stats. Very few legit players leveled to get to the point of being able to play a lvl 1 in perilous.

Can you give me  document or the confirmation of this?

 

I would like to see it, maybe you can remember that we lose all Exp when we crash to desktop or some strange bug ingame appears, that is something the devs owes us from the launch of the game.

 

I want a Bioware representative to come and said i did something wrong, if we throw it all in a balance they owe me more than the "supposed" sin you claim i did.

 

Dont give me the purist crap speech now, everything has been fair since day one, Crash to desktop, Areas no loading, key not mapped on bar, (a hundred more things), and the ability to leave game and come back.

 

You guys sound like a nice guy whose GF was stolen.



#61
Nintendali

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Anyone can run a level 1 through perilous if they have three competent, well-geared friends to carry them. Our group once carried a brand new player on a level 1 character who'd only played 2 other matches before. No 'buffed stats' required.

 

Look, I know it sucks to have to drop down to routine/threatening to level up enough to not get kicked on perilous. Players who did use the exploit had no advantage over players who carried each other at level one on perilous. The same number of games must be played either way.


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#62
GreatBlueHeron

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Can you give me document or the confirmation of this?

I would like to see it, maybe you can remember that we lose all Exp when we crash to desktop or some strange bug ingame appears, that is something the devs owes us from the launch of the game.

I want a Bioware representative to come and said i did something wrong, if we throw it all in a balance they owe me more than the "supposed" sin you claim i did.

Dont give me the purist crap speech now, everything has been fair since day one, Crash to desktop, Areas no loading, key not mapped on bar, (a hundred more things), and the ability to leave game and come back.

You guys sound like a nice guy whose GF was stolen.

First of all, I'm not a guy. Second of all, Bioware doesn't owe you anything. I've lost plenty of exp because of system freezes and the like. It sucks, but it doesn't make me entitled to get exp by exploit.

Do whatever you want. I really don't care. I'm just tired of hearing exploiters run their mouths about how awesome they are and how carrying in pugs is so annoying.

ETA: There is a reason why the TOS is deliberately vague. It's to cover EA's butt and to prevent rules-lawyering, which is what you're doing right now. You want everything you can and can't do in writing. That won't happen because EA wants to cover their bases--they're not going to leave themselves open to being wrong, so what is considered to be violations is at their discretion. If you're still able to play your account, you already have your answer. When shenanigans were rampant in me3, punishment varied based upon the offense. It seems as though the only punishment being implemented at this time is that you can no longer utilize that particular means of exploit.

#63
Laforgus

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First of all, I'm not a guy. Second of all, Bioware doesn't owe you anything. I've lost plenty of exp because of system freezes and the like. It sucks, but it doesn't make me entitled to get exp by exploit.

Do whatever you want. I really don't care. I'm just tired of hearing exploiters run their mouths about how awesome they are and how carrying in pugs is so annoying.

1- Sorry about it, but gender doesn't show on Forum's post

2- You know about Great Game Guarantee? You see it as soon you are about to buy the game.

3- i'm sorry for your exp, i know how it feels.

4- The word exploit is being used by people who didn't switch at the end of 5/5, it was not obligatory, it was a choice. 

5- exploiters? shrugs you said you don't care but at same time you care, let me check:

 

" I really don't care" "I'm just tired of hearing exploiters" "I really don't care" "how awesome they are" " I really don't care" 

 

6- i don't get it GIRL, but fine....



#64
GreatBlueHeron

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Don't call me girl. It's condescending as hell.
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#65
Laforgus

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Don't call me girl. It's condescending as hell.

 

You are still caring... how about a game? you can add me, i promise i will behave.  ;)

 

Remember this is not a pvp game, "You know we could be friends if you try"



#66
Kenny Bania

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Don't call me girl. It's condescending as hell.


Out of curiosity, what should he have called you?
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#67
JAMiAM

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I got this feeling there are people who play video games who never took a course on ethics and morality. Because it's obviously evident there is lack of character in some players.

Call me old fashioned, but back in the day, we didn't need to take a course on ethics and morality.  We had parents, who actually cared about such things, teach them to us.


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#68
TheThirdRace

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Call me old fashioned, but back in the day, we didn't need to take a course on ethics and morality.  We had parents, who actually cared about such things, teach them to us.


Call me progressionist, but if we'd all listen to our parents while they "educate" us, we'd still think that it's ok to dump oil directly into the river, that it's a capital sin to be gay, that we should make our own justice, that the Earth is flat and that Adam and Eve are our ancestor...

No thanks, the "old" days are worst than today. Morality and ethics are not exactly what run the world back then either... Ask the millions that died because of the religions of man, they all preach love, they all kill like mad men. Don't forget, only a 100 years ago they were still immolating women because they thought they were witches... 50 years ago they were still lynching Black people because they were, and I quote, "inferior" to the master "white supremacy". Really? You're really gonna base yourself on the old days? Really?!?!?!??!?!
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#69
Ghost Of N7_SP3CTR3

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cena_whistling_gif.gif


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#70
JAMiAM

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Call me progressionist...plus a bunch of straw man crap.

Sorry that *your* parents taught you all that crap.  However, the army of strawmen you've enlisted can all burn - like all the whining cheaters who are upset the devs put a lock on their cookie jar.



#71
GreatBlueHeron

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Out of curiosity, what should he have called you?

Not assume gender in the first place.  Some people don't follow the gender binary.  While I happen to, I was not asked what gender I was and when I protested being called a dude, I get called a girl.  I'm not a child.  I would never disrespect a person posting here by calling them 'boy' or 'girl'.  You (meaning a general you) can call me GBH, Great Blue Heron, Blue Heron.  Not girl.  



#72
Texasmotiv

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Pointless thread is pointless.

#73
Kenny Bania

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Not assume gender in the first place.  Some people don't follow the gender binary.  While I happen to, I was not asked what gender I was and when I protested being called a dude, I get called a girl.  I'm not a child.  I would never disrespect a person posting here by calling them 'boy' or 'girl'.  You (meaning a general you) can call me GBH, Great Blue Heron, Blue Heron.  Not girl.  

 

That's fine. You use the term "dude" quite freely, so you obviously aren't bothered about referring to people impersonally. What would be the appropriate impersonal term in this case?



#74
scene_cachet

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It's funny that stats matter this much to people when you get to a point when you're just pissing into an Ocean of non-progression because that stats become meaningless and then the same people then complain about everything being so easy. 

 

From what I seeing, you are at a huge disadvantage over premoting because the game becomes trivial.

 

However, if you want to be king of the leaderboards of a 3 map (4 only just recently) multiplayer that was so bug ridden it was unplayable then do it the way it was intended to be done. 



#75
Angelus_de_Mortiel

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Welcome back Mortiel.

 

Thanks!

 

Call me old fashioned, but back in the day, we didn't need to take a course on ethics and morality.  We had parents, who actually cared about such things, teach them to us.

 

Let's leave the diagnosis/profiling/judgment of other people (including their psyche and upbringing) to professional mediums, shall we?