85 ответов в этой теме

[SuperJogi]

So space combat in ME mostly consists of ships firing 20kg slugs at each other which are blocked by the mass effect fields surrounding each vessel and fighters trying to close in to drop a disruptor torpedo which are slow and sluggish and therefore easily shot down by GARDIAN lasers. That opens the question of why there are no nuclear weapons used either in form of a missile or mine?

 

Despite there beeing no blast wave, nuclear weapons are brutally effective in space, since there is no atmosphere to shield against the strong burst of gamma radiation. And since ME vessels don't appear to be covered in a 1m thick armour of lead they would be extremely vulnerable to such an attack. Even a relatively small 20Kt warhead delivers a deadly acute radiation dose of over 500 Röntgen (5 sievert) in a radius of about 15 miles. (source)

 

Everyone on the citadel would die within 1 or 2 days if you'd detonate a 100+Kt warhead between it's arms. And that's just the effect on puny organics. ME technology relies heavily on complex electronics in order for anything to work. A blast of gamma rays of that magnitude would probably instantly destroy most it, leaving ships and stations completely dead in space. Also communications would be disrupted for several minutes.

 

A well placed 10 Megatonne nuke could probably disable an entire fleet in one shot. Leaving the ships drifting through space, with the crew lying on the floor vomiting their brains out while their skin falls off. Then you either leave them to their death or give mercy by taking some practice shots.

 

Now obviously, acute radiation poisoning leads to a quite slow and gruesome death which would probably lead to these kind of weapons to be regarded as unethical and banned in conventional warfare. Howether wouldn't it be a good idea to have them just in case? Especially agianst the reapers and their sympathisers? I don't know how effctive they would be against the reapers themselves but I find it hard to believe that no species uses them in space combat, even just as a last resort. Or am I completly wrong and the codex explains everything?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Thermonuclear weapons were made illegal by the Council.

 

The reapers took out all of the remaining nuclear silos on Earth in their first strike according to lore.

 

The radiation that you'd have to worry about is gamma and heat radiation. Alpha and beta radiation is ineffective due to the fact that it would be absorbed by the hull of the ships.

 

You can't defeat the reapers conventionally. You need the Crucible. You need space magic to defeat space magic.

[Sifr]

They're not needed, using the mass effect to lighten the slug and hurling it at opponents at relativistic speeds, makes them more than devastating enough for use as conventional weaponry without the need to put any actual nuclear payloads behind it?

 

For example, a 1 kg mass traveling at 99% of the speed of light would have a kinetic energy of 5.47×10¹⁷ joules. In explosive terms, it would be equal to 132 megatons of TNT or approximately 82 megatons more than the theoretical max yield of Tsar-Bomba, the most powerful nuclear weapon ever detonated. 1 kg of mass-energy is 8.99×10¹⁶ joules or about 21.5 megatons of TNT.

 

(Taken from the Relativistic-Kill Vehicle page on Wikipedia, I'm not that much of a nerd)

 

Even if you were to increase the mass of the slug and simply dial down the relativistic speed you're firing it at to only a fraction of lightspeed, then it's still more than enough to, in the immortal words of Firefly, "blow a new crater into this little moon".

 

 

I think you're right though, that all sides have are purposefully agreed to nerf their weapons so they don't end up blowing themselves up in an escalating rock-throwing contest with larger payloads? Of course, they really could have considered using them once the Reapers showed up, simply because it's reached the Godzilla Threshold?

 

[Heimerdinger]

There is a mission in ME1 where you need to find a probe that contains a nuke. It was a spy probe used back in the days of the first contact war and it was rigged to blow in case the turians found it. The Alliance wants to hide it's existence so I think nukes may be illegal in Council space.

 

Then there's a colony in ME3, planet Tyvor I think. These colonists committed suicide before the reapers arrived, detonating nuclear weapons in their cities.

 

Good catch on the radiation part. Ships have kinetic barriers but that only stops incoming projectiles. The codex has something on "Inferno" class ships that mine eezo near pulsars and have powerful shielding against radiation, but these are some of the most expensive ships to make. Not sure what level of protection a normal ship has. I know you can get radiation shielding upgrades for the Crucible though.

[MrFob]

I always assumed that ships in the ME universe have really good radiation shielding anyway. Nukes and EMPs just don't seem to be feasible weapons in any conflict anymore. But it's a good question how they would get this kind of shielding. Kinetic barriers are specifically mentioned not to provide any kind of radiation shielding. They say that with the help of ME fields, they could come up with some really new and innovative construction materials and alloys but my knowladge in physics is not good enough to say if it is conceivable to create a theoretical alloy that would have much better radiation shielding than anything we already have today.

[SuperJogi]

I always assumed that ships in the ME universe have really good radiation shielding anyway. Nukes and EMPs just don't seem to be feasible weapons in any conflict anymore. But it's a good question how they would get this kind of shielding. Kinetic barriers are specifically mentioned not to provide any kind of radiation shielding. They say that with the help of ME fields, they could come up with some really new and innovative construction materials and alloys but my knowladge in physics is not good enough to say if it is conceivable to create a theoretical alloy that would have much better radiation shielding than anything we already have today.

 

The deciding factor of how well a material absorbs high energy photons is it's atomic density, which means that good shielding material is also necessarily very massive. Lead and depleted uranium are currently the best ones we have and a better one would be even denser. Coating an entire ship with that stuff would make it ridiculously massive, which would then require a much larger ezoo core. So I don't think ME ships are that well shielded against gamma at all.

[Aimi]

Then there's a colony in ME3, planet Tyvor I think. These colonists committed suicide before the reapers arrived, detonating nuclear weapons in their cities.

Also, the Codex description of the Battle of Palaven in ME3 records that handpicked teams of krogan and turian commandos were able to smuggle nuclear weapons inside Reaper vessels - whether these were destroyers, dreadnoughts, or 'prison ships' is unclear - and detonate them inside, dealing severe damage to the Reaper forces there.

[Vazgen]

I always assumed that ships in the ME universe have really good radiation shielding anyway. Nukes and EMPs just don't seem to be feasible weapons in any conflict anymore. But it's a good question how they would get this kind of shielding. Kinetic barriers are specifically mentioned not to provide any kind of radiation shielding. They say that with the help of ME fields, they could come up with some really new and innovative construction materials and alloys but my knowladge in physics is not good enough to say if it is conceivable to create a theoretical alloy that would have much better radiation shielding than anything we already have today.

There is that one mission in ME2 when you have to reactivate shields on a research station to protect it from solar radiation. Something like that should work

[SuperJogi]

There is that one mission in ME2 when you have to reactivate shields on a research station to protect it from solar radiation. Something like that should work

 

Except that most main sequence stars emitt all of their light in the radio, microwave, IR and UV spectrum, with a tiny bit of X-Ray coming from the corona. I don't think there are any main sequence stars which emitt gamma.

 

Remember: Radiation isn't all the same thing. Technically sunscreen is a great radiation shield because absorbs alot of the ultraviolet spectrum, it's useless against X-ray or gamma however.

[MrFob]

But hay, this is actually weird right? Because the only shield we ever heard of is the kinetic barrier which should not work again radiation of any kind. So the shield we activate on that mission must be something else, suggesting that there ma tech around to shield at least against solar radiation. This implies that there are shields that are never described in the codex. Maybe there is some form of gamma ray shielding as well.

My previous post was kind of arguing the other way round though. It's more like "If no one is using nukes anymore, it does imply that they are not useful anymore". The reason for this is not explained in the games AFAIK.

The critical difference in the cases where they are used is that in those cases, they are applied from the inside (smuggled in, etc.). This tells me that there seems to be some form of shielding out there, whatever kind of whacky physics it's based on.

But you are right SuperJogi, it would be nice to get some form of explanation for this (I bet it'll have something to do with ME fields ).

[KrrKs]

Nuclear weapons are not illegal under council rule, but using them on garden worlds is.

From the codex:

 

Citadel Conventions

[...]

The Conventions regulate the use of Weapons of Mass Destruction. A WMD causes environmental alteration to a world. A bomb that produces a large crater is not considered a WMD; a bomb that causes a "nuclear winter" is.

Use of WMD is forbidden on "garden" worlds like Earth, with ecospheres that can readily support a population. If a habitable world is destroyed, it will not be replaced for millions of years. The Conventions do not forbid the use of WMD on hostile worlds or in sealed space-station environments. Many militaries continue to develop and maintain stockpiles.

The Conventions graded Weapons of Mass Destruction into tiers of concern. Tier I is the greatest threat to galactic peace.

[...]

TIER III: Large energy-burst weapons such as nuclear or antimatter warheads.

 

But why should anyone use a nuke that is costly to produce and store, and can't be used anytime, instead of a simple, cheap <any conducting material>-block that can be used under all circumstances and is basically just as deadly?

 

 

*Quoting the codex to make a point, just to follow it by another point going completely against said codex*

There is that one mission in ME2 when you have to reactivate shields on a research station to protect it from solar radiation. Something like that should work

As Mr Fob said, I also believe that the ME:U must have radiation shields -at least for ships and certain planets like this one. Operating a deep space fleet otherwise would likely result in an astronomical death-toll (so to say).

I know that the codex says that barriers/shields don't interfere with radiation, but with small fast objects.

I would say that shields (should) instead react based on an Energy per Area threshold.

(I'm not quite sure if that actually makes sense, It's pretty late around here)

[SuperJogi]

But hay, this is actually weird right? Because the only shield we ever heard of is the kinetic barrier which should not work again radiation of any kind. So the shield we activate on that mission must be something else, suggesting that there ma tech around to shield at least against solar radiation. This implies that there are shields that are never described in the codex. Maybe there is some form of gamma ray shielding as well.

My previous post was kind of arguing the other way round though. It's more like "If no one is using nukes anymore, it does imply that they are not useful anymore". The reason for this is not explained in the games AFAIK.

 

The fact that I didn't see any obvious reason in ME lore of why they shouldn't be effective is the reason I started this thread. It just doesn't make sense.

Also "solar radiation" is a pretty stupid term since it almost covers the entire EM spectrum, including visible light.

 

As Mr Fob said, I also believe that the ME:U must have radiation shields -at least for ships and certain planets like this one. Operating a deep space fleet otherwise would likely result in an astronomical death-toll (so to say).

I know that the codex says that barriers/shields don't interfere with radiation, but with small fast objects.

I would say that shields (should) instead react based on an Energy per Area threshold.

(I'm not quite sure if that actually makes sense, It's pretty late around here)

 

If you assume that there is a shield (either ME or not) that magicly absorbs photons of certain wavelengths or energy per area (however that is supposed to work), it opens up other questions like : Why not use that shield to protect fighters and missiles against GARDIAN lasers? And it very clearly says in the codex that ME barriers do not protect against lasers.

[AlanC9]

If you assume that there is a shield (either ME or not) that magicly absorbs photons of certain wavelengths or energy per area (however that is supposed to work), it opens up other questions like : Why not use that shield to protect fighters and missiles against GARDIAN lasers? And it very clearly says in the codex that ME barriers do not protect against lasers.

Therefore, this hypothetical radiation shield only works against the high-wavelength stuff.

Alternatively, gamma rays just don't exist in the MEU, or nukes don'ty emit them. (Hey, we've already accepted some fantasy physics.)

Otherwise, the Conventions would put the Citadel fleets at a severe disadvantage in space combat against powers that aren't members. That's politically preposterous and inconsistent with both MEU history and the course of the Reaper war.

We can't give only the Reapers a nuke defense, unless someone can explain why the Reapers don't just whip out nukes all the time

[MrFob]

The fact that I didn't see any obvious reason in ME lore of why they shouldn't be effective is the reason I started this thread. It just doesn't make sense.

Also "solar radiation" is a pretty stupid term since it almost covers the entire EM spectrum, including visible light.

Yea yea, I get that, wasn't meaning to argue against the topic, just bringing in the point that I think it's not beyond imagination that in 200 years, someone ould come up with a good defense mechanism . But as I said, you are right, it's unexplained and they should at least make an attempt.

[SuperJogi]

Also for the people saying that nukes aren't used because mass accelerators are effective enough. I don't think so, they are much more versatile in their application.

You can mount them on missiles, meaning that even small fighters can fire them.

You could use them as mines to block of mass relays and send enemy ships into a trap.

Use them to protect spy satellites, like the alliance did, before the council told them not to, and the alliance stopped, because they are spineless xeno symphathisers.

 

Or my personal invention: An ISCM (Interstellar Cruise Missile)

1. Build cruise missile with 100 Megatonne thermonuclear warhead.

2. Put in eezo core and stealth tech like in the Normandy.

3. Send it through the relay network.

4. ???

5. PROFIT!

 

Goodbye Citadel.

[Vazgen]

I don't think they are ineffective, but dealing with radiation is probably not that much of an issue in MEU. There are radioactive "bullets", ships emit radiation to disperse heat, neutron radiation is used on Noveria leaving Shepard and squadmates safe, Quarians sterilize crops with radiation, power plants and electrical equipment emit radiation (which is picked by sensors in space) - Link... All this makes me think that there are ways of dealing with radiation poisoning and/or shields against radiation. It is unexplained though, I agree. 

 

Slightly related - Anyone noticed how Shepard violated Council regulations by detonating a nuke on a garden world (Virmire)?

[SuperJogi]

I don't think they are ineffective, but dealing with radiation is probably not that much of an issue in MEU.

 

*activate Mordin impression*

There are radioactive "bullets",

 

Polonium: Powerful alpha emitter. Deadly when ingested. Blocked by piece of paper.

 

ships emit radiation to disperse heat

 

Infrared. Harmless.

 

neutron radiation is used on Noveria

 

Particle radiation. Blocked by kinetic barrier. Only dangerous at high velocity or ingestion.

 

Quarians sterilize crops with radiation

 

Small amounds of X-ray or gamma used to kill microscopic liveforms. No contamination. Harmless.

 

power plants and electrical equipment emit radiation

 

Radio, microwave and infrared -radiation. Harmless. Powerplants, if nuclear, might emitt tiny amounts of gamma. Harmless at this dose.

 

Wanna try agian?

[Vazgen]

Wanna try agian?

Try what? All I'm saying is that technology utilizing/based on radiation is quite common in MEU. I then extrapolate that with the development of such technology, protective measures will also evolve. I also made a note in the end of my comment that it is not established in existing lore. I don't see what's the problem here.

[MrFob]

Slightly related - Anyone noticed how Shepard violated Council regulations by detonating a nuke on a garden world (Virmire)?

 

Spectre business does not know war crimes.

 

Also, the council actually did reprimand Shep for this somewhat. It's one of their main arguments for grounding him towards the end of ME1.

[Vazgen]

Spectre business does not know war crimes.

 

Also, the council actually did reprimand Shep for this somewhat. It's one of their main arguments for grounding him towards the end of ME1.

I thought they mentioned the detonation only to point out that Shepard is not very subtle

[MrFob]

I thought they mentioned the detonation only to point out that Shepard is not very subtle

 

You are right actually. I think the Asari even goes as far as saying:

"Your style served you well in the Traverse."

Pretty unscrupulous, that lady. But hay, I guess improvised nuclear explosives never really go out of style.

[AlanC9]

Shepard can just blame it on Kirrahe. Especially if Kirrahe's dead.

[SuperJogi]

Try what? All I'm saying is that technology utilizing/based on radiation is quite common in MEU. I then extrapolate that with the development of such technology, protective measures will also evolve. I also made a note in the end of my comment that it is not established in existing lore. I don't see what's the problem here.

 

I think the problem here is that you don't really understand what radiation is, what kinds of different radiation there are, what they do quantum mechanically, how they interact with matter and how they affect organic tissue. All the examples of radiation beeing emitted you listet are either completly harmless to the human body or can be easely shielded against. There is no advanced MEU tech at work here. Technology utilizing radiation is quite commonly used right now. The light bulb at my ceiling utilizes EM (electromagnetic) radiation at infrared and ultraviolet wavelengths to illuminate my room. EM radiation at this wavelength is also called "light" and it's completly harmless. Unless at high intensity, than it can damage the eye.

 

Here we are talking gamma radiation. Extremely short wavelenth, high energy EM radiation, usually emitted by nuclear decay. Gamma radiation permanently damages organic cells, causing mutations and deseases like cancer. At high doses over a short timeframe it can cause acute radiation poisoning leading to the persons death within a few days. Gamma radiation is extremely difficult to shield against, since due to it's short wavelenth the likelyhood of beeing absorbed by an atom is extremely low, meaning that it will fly straight through most matter. In order to increase the chance of a gamma photon to be absorbed you have to pack as many atoms as you can between you and the source. Right now this is achieved by thick layers of heavy elements like lead or depleted uranium. Howether that solution does not work for large space ships since it would increase the mass substantially. Eezo offers no solution to that problem either, leaving MEU ships very vulnerable to attacks through gamma radiation.

This is not a technological problem, it's a physical one. And it cannot be solved without calling upon the all powerful god of space magic.

[Vazgen]

I think the problem here is that you don't really understand what radiation is, what kinds of different radiation there are, what they do quantum mechanically, how they interact with matter and how they affect organic tissue. All the examples of radiation beeing emitted you listet are either completly harmless to the human body or can be easely shielded against. There is no advanced MEU tech at work here. Technology utilizing radiation is quite commonly used right now. The light bulb at my ceiling utilizes EM (electromagnetic) radiation at infrared and ultraviolet wavelengths to illuminate my room. EM radiation at this wavelength is also called "light" and it's completly harmless. Unless at high intensity, than it can damage the eye.

 

Here we are talking gamma radiation. Extremely short wavelenth, high energy EM radiation, usually emitted by nuclear decay. Gamma radiation permanently damages organic cells, causing mutations and deseases like cancer. At high doses over a short timeframe it can cause acute radiation poisoning leading to the persons death within a few days. Gamma radiation is extremely difficult to shield against, since due to it's short wavelenth the likelyhood of beeing absorbed by an atom is extremely low, meaning that it will fly straight through most matter. In order to increase the chance of a gamma photon to be absorbed you have to pack as many atoms as you can between you and the source. Right now this is achieved by thick layers of heavy elements like lead or depleted uranium. Howether that solution does not work for large space ships since it would increase the mass substantially. Eezo offers no solution to that problem either, leaving MEU ships very vulnerable to attacks through gamma radiation.

This is not a technological problem, it's a physical one. And it cannot be solved without calling upon the all powerful god of space magic.

OK, here is an example of advanced MEU tech at work. Codex mentions that "in manufacturing low-mass fields permit the creation of evenly-blended alloys, while high mass compaction creates dense, sturdy construction materials". So it is possible to create materials likely much more dense than current ones. Won't such materials protect better against gamma radiation?

Neutron radiation is a result of nuclear fission or fusion. Do you suggest that scientists in MEU can produce controlled neutron radiation bursts in large amounts in a closed area without any means of protection or control over gamma radiation?

"Polonium. Deadly when ingested." - Tali was hit with a polonium round. Yet she's alive and well, even despite weakened immune systems of the Quarians. Dr. Michel fixed her quite easily it seems.

Add to this Council regulations against using nuclear weapons and logical extrapolation that they'll have some countermeasures if some race that is not a part of the Council decides to use those. Especially considering that there are two major forces not under the Council jurisdiction - Terminus systems and Batarian Hegemony.

 

There are no problems here. Nuclear weapons were used in MEU, they are still present in ME3. They are not that effective against the Reapers though and thus don't see much use in the space battles. And on the ground they have a side effect of contaminating the environment which is not something people want to do to their homeworlds. 

 

Edit: The only problem is that the nature of countermeasures and protections is never explained in the game, as I have posted in my previous comments.

[SuperJogi]

OK, here is an example of advanced MEU tech at work. Codex mentions that "in manufacturing low-mass fields permit the creation of evenly-blended alloys, while high mass compaction creates dense, sturdy construction materials". So it is possible to create materials likely much more dense than current ones. Won't such materials protect better against gamma radiation?

 

Yes they would. But they also would be even heavier.
 

 

Neutron radiation is a result of nuclear fission or fusion. Do you suggest that scientists in MEU can produce controlled neutron radiation bursts in large amounts in a closed area without any means of protection or control over gamma radiation?

 

No. What you are describing we can do right now. Happens all the time in nuclear reactors. We shield ourselves from gamma emmited by that through thick walls of steel and concrete. No advanced MEU tech at work here. Not really a viable solution for a space ship though.

 

"Polonium. Deadly when ingested." - Tali was hit with a polonium round. Yet she's alive and well, even despite weakened immune systems of the Quarians. Dr. Michel fixed her quite easily it seems.

 

If the polonium was removed fast enough before a high dose could be absorbed there is no problem with that. Also i never said that treatment for radiation poisoning hasn't improved over the time. But an instant dose of over 1000 roentgen, like you would get beeing near a nuclear explosion in space, is deadly. Unless you get the magical cerberus revival treatment.

 

Add to this Council regulations against using nuclear weapons and logical extrapolation that they'll have some countermeasures if some race that is not a part of the Council decides to use those.

 

And what would that countermeasure be?

 

Your entire argument is basicly: They don't use nukes in space battles, therefore nukes must be ineffective, otherwise it doesn't make sense.

Over this thread i have given you some very good reasons why nukes would still be extremely effectice in the MEU. And ME lore does not give any good counter arguments. So what is the logical conclusion? Exactly, it doesn't make sense.