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Where are the nukes?


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#51
Iakus

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Space Magic, which even as it is, already exists in the ME universe, so it's not much of a stretch...

 

Besides, you can always imagine that some genious scientist had a eureka moment and found a way to circumvent a certain problem by using the: *insert techno babble here*, to solve the problem of *insert scientific problem here*.

 

Meaning, necessity is the mother of invention, and innovation can go a long way even in the face of supposedly un-solvable problems.

"An author’s ability to solve conflict with magic is directly proportional to how well the reader understands said magic"


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#52
Laughing_Man

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The supposed engine placements (at the end of the 'wings') don't seem to leave all that much place for any sort of shielding though.

 

Regarding the Normandy's wings:

 

Isn't this another thing that makes no sense? The Normandy's wings are a structural weakness that exist without a good reason.

(the same goes for any other space based Turian and Human spacecraft that have a winged design.)

 

A. The large eezo core makes lift by traditional aerodynamic design redundant, you just need a narrow body designed to cut through the air in the most efficient way possible. Hell, the Kodiak managed even with the aerodynamic profile of a brick. And that's even after ignoring the fact that most of the time the Normandy is not supposed to operate in atmosphere.

 

B. The wings look rather... flimsy, a glancing hit that may otherwise be non-fatal can destroy a wing and blow up an engine.

The wings are not only redundant, they make the Normandy a bigger target.

 

C. The wings cause high energy ineficiency by requiring the barrier generator to expand more power in order to cover the extra surface, power that otherwise could have been used to make the barrier stronger.


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#53
Laughing_Man

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"An author’s ability to solve conflict with magic is directly proportional to how well the reader understands said magic"

 

Indeed, but you can't write Sci-Fi without using "magic" to explain away any kind of technology that at this point is unlikely or impossible, and by "magic" I mean things that cannot be explained by actual sciense.



#54
SuperJogi

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Regarding the Normandy's wings:

 

Isn't this another thing that makes no sense? The Normandy's wings are a structural weakness that exist without a good reason.

(the same goes for any other space based Turian and Human spacecraft that have a winged design.)

 

A. The large eezo core makes lift by traditional aerodynamic design redundant, you just need a narrow body designed to cut through the air in the most efficient way possible. Hell, the Kodiak managed even with the aerodynamic profile of a brick. And that's even after ignoring the fact that most of the time the Normandy is not supposed to operate in atmosphere.

 

C. The wings cause high energy ineficiency by requiring the barrier generator to expand more power in order to cover the extra surface, power that otherwise could have been used to make the barrier stronger.

 

Sure, the optimal ME space ship design would probably be a brick with a pointy tip.

 

B. The wings look rather... flimsy, a glancing hit that may otherwise be non-fatal can destroy a wing and blow up an engine.

 

If you think ME ships are flimsy, take a look at Star Trek...

 

Indeed, but you can't write Sci-Fi without using "magic" to explain away any kind of technology that at this point is unlikely or impossible, and by "magic" I mean things that cannot be explained by actual sciense.

 

Magic is by definition not explainable, if it were, it would be science.

Sure, some of it is necessary to get any Sci-Fi going, but excessive use will create plot holes and strain the suspension of disbelief. You need clear rules regarding what your magic can and can't do. ME does that fairly well most of the time, except of course the ending, that is a perfect example of what you should not do with your magic.

 

Also, on Wikipedia, I just found the perfect term for all the "scientific" explainations in most Sci-fi:

 

Cognitive estrangement in fiction involves using a person's ignorance or lack of knowledge to promote suspension of disbelief.


#55
Silvair

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Nukes are redundant.  ME weapons already functions on the Thors Hammer/Rail Gun principle, which is equivalent or greater than a nuke regardless.  Also deflector shields.



#56
Laughing_Man

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Nukes are redundant.  ME weapons already functions on the Thors Hammer/Rail Gun principle, which is equivalent or greater than a nuke regardless.  Also deflector shields.

 

Think about it, if you manage to shoot a Nuke / Anti-Matter warhead through a rail-gun, you are probably going to get triple the effectiveness if not more when it comes to the yield. You have the initial kinetic energy, and then the device explodes, it's the strongest one-two punch in the ME universe space warfare lore.



#57
Silvair

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Think about it, if you manage to shoot a Nuke / Anti-Matter warhead through a rail-gun, you are probably going to get triple the effectiveness if not more when it comes to the yield. You have the initial kinetic energy, and then the device explodes, it's the strongest one-two punch in the ME universe space warfare lore.

I don't thiink it works that way.  The explosions overlap, not double up.  But its more the fact that if their shields can deflect one, they can deflect both.  Sides, the device would be exploding anyway from the kinetic energy.  If anything, all that would happen is the nuke would detonate IN the rail gun when its fired.

 

This is a few steps beyond Metal Gear Rex, yaknow?



#58
Iakus

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Indeed, but you can't write Sci-Fi without using "magic" to explain away any kind of technology that at this point is unlikely or impossible, and by "magic" I mean things that cannot be explained by actual sciense.

True, but you do have to explain how this "magic" fits into the series.  The "eureka" moment has to be a logical extension from what is already known within the universe.

 

Simply saying "It's all a matter of resources" is just not enough.



#59
MrFob

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Regarding the Normandy's wings:

 

Isn't this another thing that makes no sense? The Normandy's wings are a structural weakness that exist without a good reason.

(the same goes for any other space based Turian and Human spacecraft that have a winged design.)

 

A. The large eezo core makes lift by traditional aerodynamic design redundant, you just need a narrow body designed to cut through the air in the most efficient way possible. Hell, the Kodiak managed even with the aerodynamic profile of a brick. And that's even after ignoring the fact that most of the time the Normandy is not supposed to operate in atmosphere.

 

B. The wings look rather... flimsy, a glancing hit that may otherwise be non-fatal can destroy a wing and blow up an engine.

The wings are not only redundant, they make the Normandy a bigger target.

 

C. The wings cause high energy ineficiency by requiring the barrier generator to expand more power in order to cover the extra surface, power that otherwise could have been used to make the barrier stronger.

 

Sorry but I really dislike arguments like this. You came up with three reasons why the wing may be bad for the ship. Well, at least two of those could be used for modern fighter jets as well, with only slight adaptations but all you really need is one good reason why you actually need the wings regardless. In the case of modern fighter jets, which fly through atmosphere, they produce aerodynamic force and are therefore an essential part that makes the plane fly in the first place.

Now, when we are talking about a fictional spacecraft, using technology, 200 years more advanced than ours and built on a kind of physics that is totally unfamiliar (because it's fictional), you can come up with literally any reason why the wings for that craft may be essential. Just from the top of my head, here are a few examples:

- Maybe the reaction in the fusion torches has to be kept separate from the crew because of health concerns (radiation, particle emission, whatdoyouknow

- Maybe the heat output of the thrusters can only be radiated properly with the larger surface area and also has to be kept separate from the main part of the ship as to not cook the crew

- Maybe the thrusters have to be spaced out to the sides to allow for reasonable maneuverability when combined with an ME field

 

I could go on and on and on and all you need is one single reason why the wings make sense. If you cannot bring yourself to use that minimum of imagination, than you are not trying. And before someone now comes with the argument that no reason for this is mentioned in the game, well, when was the last time you talked about the aerodynamic properties of airplane wings? Just because something is not spelled out specifically within the ~150 hours that we spent in the ME universe, it doesn't mean that there is no reason there.

 

I am sorry if I come off as a bit zealous about defending the lore (or rather the lack of it) here but your post reminded me of the old smudboy videos (not sure if anyone rememberes those) and I do really dislike those. Because smudboy does this all the time. In 99% of his complaints, he comes up with problems that could be solved by just one guy saying one or two sentences off screen. Mass Effect (at least the games) has always been about a story, told from the perspective of one person, Shepard. The fact that you have to fill in some blanks arises simply because Shepard can't be everywhere at once and hence you, the player, don't get all the information about everything. This doesn't mean that it is not there, that it doesn't make sense or that the narration is bad or the writers were lazy. It can simply be a question of focus to leave out irrelevant information (like the issue with the wings and maybe even the issue with the nukes). It's irrelevant for the characters and their problems and that's what the story is ultimately about.

 

Now we can argue when information becomes relevant but when encountering a missing peace, I usually like to ask "How can I fill in the blanks", rather then "How can I take this universe apart" whenever possible. Of course, I also have my threshold of acceptance and I usually draw the line when a rule that was established before is broken later on or when something is absolutely central to the plot (crucible anyone). But for stuff, that is just not touched upon, I usually rather like to assume that there is a good explanation for it and we - the audience - just haven't been treated to it (yet).

 

With the wings, I think it's really easy to imagine any sort of reason why they are necessary. With the nukes, it's a bit harder (as this thread demonstrates) but even then, I think it is still more fun to speculate on why it may make sense after all, rather then to come up with arguments for why it doesn't.

 

 

Phew, this got way longer than I thought, hope you won't take this personally Tzeentchian Apostrophe, just trying to make a rather general point on how I like to approach lore and its problems (and I guess thinking back to the smudboy videos got me riled up a little :)).



#60
SuperJogi

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@ MrFob

 

I agree, there are several good reasons on why you would keep volatile parts like the engines as far away as possible from the more vital parts of the ship. And in general I like the design of most MEU ships. It hits a good spot beeing realistic and believable, while not beeing boring and bland. (except the Destiny Ascencion, that thing looks ridiculous). I think one of my favourite space ship designs in Scifi are the UNSC ships in Halo. That's exactly how I would imagine a human warship would look like.


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#61
Laughing_Man

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I don't thiink it works that way.  The explosions overlap, not double up.  But its more the fact that if their shields can deflect one, they can deflect both.  Sides, the device would be exploding anyway from the kinetic energy.  If anything, all that would happen is the nuke would detonate IN the rail gun when its fired.

 

This is a few steps beyond Metal Gear Rex, yaknow?

 

Obviously, I'm assuming that they are competent enough to create munitions that will not explode on the rail as they are being fired...

 

The explosions overlap? I'm not a physicist, but I'm almost certain that you are wrong.

Energy don't just go away. You have X amount of kinetic energy, do to mass & acceleration thanks to Mr Newton.

The matter - anti-matter annihlation has nothing to do with the initial energy discharge, and is certainly not cancelled by it.

 

Sure, you won't be able to actually see two seperate explosions, but the energy is still there.

 

Regarding barriers, they can't just "deflect both" because ME lore is rather clear about the fact that barriers can only stop a set amount of energy before they overload, and that's besides the fact that a large part of this explosion of energy is going to be expressed through thermal and radiation energy, which are not blocked by a barrier. (you may be able to block some of it with space magic, but if the burst of heat and radiation is massive enough and close enough to the ship, there is not much you can do about it)

 

I am not familiar with metal gear rex, but anything called "metal gear" something - is already suspect of having more to do with "rule-of-cool" than with acual physics and science in general, so yeah...


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#62
Laughing_Man

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Sorry but I really dislike arguments like this. *snip*

 

Well, you have the right to dislike it, but I don't really see the difference between my post and the rest of this thread, or indeed the "things that make no sense" thread. If you are willing to go the extra mile and handwave everything away, you can use this logic for just about anything, including obvious plot holes.

 

I agree that there is a point of balance somewhere, but I also think that whoever writes the lore in video games that in large part exist for and because of their lore - needs to pay more attention to details, ME lore is... not impressive when it comes to this.

 

Personally, I would have liked to see more science driven lore and less "rule-of-cool". Again, there has to be some kind of balance, but walking in space in cat suits and breather-masks is not that balance.

 

(I may be wrong about this particular issue - the wings - but even in today's examples of spacecraft design you protect the crew from dangerous emissions [in theoretical designs for spacecraft using anti-matter engines and other radiations-heavy propultion systems] from the engine by making the space craft longer, and putting as much shielding as possible between the engines and the crew)



#63
SuperJogi

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Obviously, I'm assuming that they are competent enough to create munitions that will not explode on the rail as they are being fired...

 

Yes, especially considering that the accelaration happens through an ME field, which significantly lowers the forces acting on the projectile.

 

The explosions overlap? I'm not a physicist, but I'm almost certain that you are wrong.

 

The only thing I'm aware of where overlap causes a reduction in (local) energy, is destructive interference of two waves in superposition. But that is irrelevant here and I highly doubt that thats what Silvair meant. ;)

 

Well, you have the right to dislike it, but I don't really see the difference between my post and the rest of this thread, or indeed the "things that make no sense" thread. If you are willing to go the extra mile and handwave everything away, you can use this logic for just about anything, including obvious plot holes.

 

I think there is a difference between finding a quick and logical explanation, and having to bend the laws of reality.

 

I agree that there is a point of balance somewhere, but I also think that whoever writes the lore in video games that in large part exist for and because of their lore - needs to pay more attention to details, ME lore is... not impressive when it comes to this.

 

Yes, attention to detail is never wrong. Even if you choose to ignore the problems you find, you should atleast acknowledge them.

Magical solution > No solution

 

Personally, I would have liked to see more science driven lore and less "rule-of-cool". Again, there has to be some kind of balance, but walking in space in cat suits and breather-masks is not that balance.

 

Yeah, there are some pretty ridiculous things in ME, but a lot of times, the reason for a lot of them is not necessarily rule-of-cool. Often times it's gameplay, like biotics, mini nuke launcher, heat sinks etc. And other times it's limited developement time, for example: It doesn't make sense that different species, with different anatomy, would use the same guns without some modification to the grip and stock, but obviously BW didn't want to make 100s of different gun models. I think the catsuit and breather mask in space falls into the same category. It's not BW saying: "Yeah, that's cool." But rather: "We only have one body model for Miranda, find a quick way to make that work in space."

Of course I could be wrong. I can't look into BWs brains. :D

 

(I may be wrong about this particular issue - the wings - but even in today's examples of spacecraft design you protect the crew from dangerous emissions [in theoretical designs for spacecraft using anti-matter engines and other radiations-heavy propultion systems] from the engine by making the space craft longer, and putting as much shielding as possible between the engines and the crew)

 

I always thought that a ME field is a sphere. That's why you would want to make ships as compact as possible, in order to save eezo, so putting the engines on the side of the ship is advantageous to putting them behind it.



#64
Vazgen

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Normandy is quite unique in that regard. I think it's the only ship with engines on the sides of it. 


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#65
KrrKs

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Furthermore it is the only ship with movable wings/thrusters.

I'm not sure why, but it sure looks cool.



#66
Silvair

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Obviously, I'm assuming that they are competent enough to create munitions that will not explode on the rail as they are being fired...

 

The explosions overlap? I'm not a physicist, but I'm almost certain that you are wrong.

Energy don't just go away. You have X amount of kinetic energy, do to mass & acceleration thanks to Mr Newton.

The matter - anti-matter annihlation has nothing to do with the initial energy discharge, and is certainly not cancelled by it.

 

Sure, you won't be able to actually see two seperate explosions, but the energy is still there.

 

Regarding barriers, they can't just "deflect both" because ME lore is rather clear about the fact that barriers can only stop a set amount of energy before they overload, and that's besides the fact that a large part of this explosion of energy is going to be expressed through thermal and radiation energy, which are not blocked by a barrier. (you may be able to block some of it with space magic, but if the burst of heat and radiation is massive enough and close enough to the ship, there is not much you can do about it)

 

I am not familiar with metal gear rex, but anything called "metal gear" something - is already suspect of having more to do with "rule-of-cool" than with acual physics and science in general, so yeah...

The concept of a metal gear is for a tank to fire nuclear warheads from any given terrain without the need of a silo.  Rex in particular accomplished this with a rail gun (for stealth purposes), hence me using it for reference.

 

Also, never doubt the logistics of Metal Gear.  They actually do go into VERY explicit detail of all the physics, science, mechanics and logistics of this kind of thing.

 

http://metalgear.wik.../Metal_Gear_REX

 

My point was that firing a nuke through a Mass Effect field, it seems to me at least, would be largely redundant.  What I meant was that the cannons from a ME gun largely outclass a nuke's yield, so at best you could hope for the damage to be equivalent, in which case...again no difference.  Unless you somehow made the nuke's blast delayed to go through an opening in the shields that the initial cannon blast created.  But a nuke by itself would likely do next to nothing to a Reaper.



#67
Laughing_Man

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The concept of a metal gear is for a tank to fire nuclear warheads from any given terrain without the need of a silo.  Rex in particular accomplished this with a rail gun (for stealth purposes), hence me using it for reference.

 

Also, never doubt the logistics of Metal Gear.  They actually do go into VERY explicit detail of all the physics, science, mechanics and logistics of this kind of thing.

 

http://metalgear.wik.../Metal_Gear_REX

 

My point was that firing a nuke through a Mass Effect field, it seems to me at least, would be largely redundant.  What I meant was that the cannons from a ME gun largely outclass a nuke's yield, so at best you could hope for the damage to be equivalent, in which case...again no difference.  Unless you somehow made the nuke's blast delayed to go through an opening in the shields that the initial cannon blast created.  But a nuke by itself would likely do next to nothing to a Reaper.

 

What I know about the Metal Gear Solid frenchise is that they tend to insert obviously fantastic things like certain "super powers" into their lore, and get out of actually having to call it magic by simply saying: "nano machines", as if this could explain everything.

 

So first you claimed that the explosions "cancel each other", and now you claim that the damage is merely unnoticable, or that it won't be enough to harm a Reaper.

 

Speculations about the potential damage to a Reaper aside, that's just... not how things work.

 

First, Like SuperJogi pointed out, explosions can cancel each other out only in very specific circumstances, which shouldn't be relevant here assuming that the munitions are designed by people who know what they are doing.

 

Second, no addition of a nuke-level amount of energy to any kind of discharge (aside from massive cosmic events like a supernova or a gamma ray burst) can be called insignificant. Even if the kinetic strike itself is measured by megatons of TNT, saying that a few more megatons are insignificant, is the same as saying that there is no difference between "Little Boy" and the "Tsar Bomba".

 

Third, I specifically mentioned an antimatter warhead. Antimatter is much more efficient than a nuke when it comes to causing a massive explosion.

When a nuke explodes, only a small part of the radioactive material is actually used, the rest is blown away by the explosion. An antimatter warhead on the other hand, merely needs to ensure that the antimatter come into contact with regular matter, and if I remember correctly, you only need a few grams of the stuff to cause a nuke level discharge of energy.

 

What will happen is this:

 

A. A Dreadnaught-sized rail-gun round containing a device to hold the Antimatter suspended is fired towards a Reaper.

 

B. The round impacts a kinetic barrier, discharging most of its energy in various ways - light, heat, kinetic energy, etc.

 

C. The device holding the Antimatter is destroyed, freeing the Antimatter to come in contact with matter.

 

D. A secondary massive discharge of energy occurs, possibly disrupting part the initial release of energy from the kinetic-kill-vehicle.

 

E. Depends on the amount of Antimatter used, the discharge of energy could be massive enough to take down a Reaper's barriers, or possibly even destroy it - remember, according to the lore, it takes around four Dreadnaught-sized kinetic strikes to destroy a Reaper's barriers, I'll leave the actual science to others (SuperJogi?  :P  ), but if a few grams of antimatter are enough to cause a small nuke-level explosion, I suspect that you won't need a large quantity - relative to the amount of radioactive material needed in a nuke - to reach the energy-discharge level of four Dreadnaught-sized kinetic strikes.

 

 

So, that thing about not being able to defeat the Reapers *conventionally*? It's actually correct, you simply need bigger, meaner, unconventional gunz. Or bombz.

 

You may still lose because of the Reaper numbers, but you will disrupt their economy and the ratio of Reapers lost / made per cycle enough, that maybe a few cycles down the line they will be destroyed.


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#68
MrFob

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So, the codex says that antimatter production in the MEU is extremely slow and expensive and needs to happen at huge solar arrays. The stuff is mainly needed for fuel in warships, otherwise they would not function in battle (overheat in no time. This all these constraints, I guess building warheads out of it may just be time/cost prohibitive, so they were not really used before the reaper war. During the war, those solar arrays would make ideal targets (I think there even was a system in the turian cluster where you can find a whole bunch of them, that were already destroyed by the reapers.

 

As for the blast strength itself, correct me if I am wrong but radiation aside I think blast damage of an explosion in space would still create mainly kinetic energy. So barriers will protect against that anyway unless you can get your bomb inside the enemy ship (which has been done effectively as we know). So you might be able to reduce the number of shots you need to overload a barrier a little with all these fancy bombs, but again, I guess the cost/effect ration just wasn't good enough to do it before the reaper war (i.e., maybe a dreadnought needs 2 shots for another dreadnought, with nukes, now you could reduce it to 1.5 in theory but you'd still have to hit twice regardless). And remember, no one really prepared for the reaper attack and the war doesn't last very long. They had to fight with whatever was developed before the war, for the enemies they knew then. Also, there are other avenues to explore as well (like thanix cannons which can basically bypass shields altogether), so they may have focused on developing those during the war.

 

So that leaves us with one "advantage" that nukes have over mass accelerators and that is radiation. This was discussed on the first two pages of the thread and we've already come up with some theories regarding that (however whacky they may be).


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#69
SuperJogi

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I'll leave the actual science to others (SuperJogi?  :P  )

 

To the rescue!

 

but if a few grams of antimatter are enough to cause a small nuke-level explosion, I suspect that you won't need a large quantity - relative to the amount of radioactive material needed in a nuke - to reach the energy-discharge level of four Dreadnaught-sized kinetic strikes.

 

The idea that antimatter releases "pure energy" when it comes into contact with matter is a common misconception.

You always have to remember that both energy and linear momentum always need to be conserved. A matter-antimatter annihilation can not create momentum out of nothing, it can convert particles into other particles with different rest masses, and therefore different speeds, but linear momentum stays the same. That makes the idea of using a matter-antimatter annihilation to penetrate a kinetic barrier rather pointless.

Using the low energy electron-positron annihilation to create gamma photons remains the most effective way to use antimatter as a space combat weapon. If you make the warhead I proposed earlier on page 2 big enough, the resulting ionization of the ships hull from being hit by the blast wave of gamma, would be enough to cause a coulombic explosion, effectivly ripping the ships hull apart.

 

So, the codex says that antimatter production in the MEU is extremely slow and expensive and needs to happen at huge solar arrays. The stuff is mainly needed for fuel in warships, otherwise they would not function in battle

 

Yes, but they use antiprotons for their fuel. Positrons are much easier to create and you probably wouldn't need massive solar arrays.

 

Btw: I forgot about conservation of momentum myself when I talked about possibly using antiprotons on page 2 :P


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#70
Iakus

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As I've mentioned in other threads, it's a pity that nuclear pumped lasers was never explored.  I mean, it's a concept that's actually been worked on in the last few decades, though the technology's not quite there yet.  In a couple hundred years?  Who knows?  If it worked, it could be an ideal anti-Reaper weapon.  a bunch of missiles with targeting VIs with these things strapped to them, get as many as possible close enough to the Reaper to explode, and focus energy from the explosions into  lasers.


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#71
SuperJogi

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As I've mentioned in other threads, it's a pity that nuclear pumped lasers was never explored.  I mean, it's a concept that's actually been worked on in the last few decades, though the technology's not quite there yet.  In a couple hundred years?  Who knows?  If it worked, it could be an ideal anti-Reaper weapon.  a bunch of missiles with targeting VIs with these things strapped to them, get as many as possible close enough to the Reaper to explode, and focus energy from the explosions into  lasers.

 

This reminds of an idea for a radiation weapon I recently had thanks to this thread.

Basicly, you have a small particle accelerator on ship were you create a thick electron beam in the 5+MeV range. Then you shoot a powerful laser, like a GARDIAN, through the electron beam and through reverse compton scattering, the photons of the laser will take some the electrons energy, shifting them into the gamma range. This high intensity gamma laser then could highly ionize spots in the enemy ships armor, ripping holes into it through coulombic explosions.

Problem is, it doesn't work. Shooting the laser through the electron beam would scatter it all over the place, including back at yourself.

But it was a nice idea. :D



#72
Laughing_Man

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This reminds of an idea for a radiation weapon I recently had thanks to this thread.

Basicly, you have a small particle accelerator on ship were you create a thick electron beam in the 5+MeV range. Then you shoot a powerful laser, like a GARDIAN, through the electron beam and through reverse compton scattering, the photons of the laser will take some the electrons energy, shifting them into the gamma range. This high intensity gamma laser then could highly ionize spots in the enemy ships armor, ripping holes into it through coulombic explosions.

Problem is, it doesn't work. Shooting the laser through the electron beam would scatter it all over the place, including back at yourself.

But it was a nice idea. :D

 

I have no idea what you just said, but I still think it's awesome... :P


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#73
Silvair

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What I know about the Metal Gear Solid frenchise is that they tend to insert obviously fantastic things like certain "super powers" into their lore, and get out of actually having to call it magic by simply saying: "nano machines", as if this could explain everything.

 

So first you claimed that the explosions "cancel each other", and now you claim that the damage is merely unnoticable, or that it won't be enough to harm a Reaper.

 

Speculations about the potential damage to a Reaper aside, that's just... not how things work.

 

First, Like SuperJogi pointed out, explosions can cancel each other out only in very specific circumstances, which shouldn't be relevant here assuming that the munitions are designed by people who know what they are doing.

 

Second, no addition of a nuke-level amount of energy to any kind of discharge (aside from massive cosmic events like a supernova or a gamma ray burst) can be called insignificant. Even if the kinetic strike itself is measured by megatons of TNT, saying that a few more megatons are insignificant, is the same as saying that there is no difference between "Little Boy" and the "Tsar Bomba".

 

Third, I specifically mentioned an antimatter warhead. Antimatter is much more efficient than a nuke when it comes to causing a massive explosion.

When a nuke explodes, only a small part of the radioactive material is actually used, the rest is blown away by the explosion. An antimatter warhead on the other hand, merely needs to ensure that the antimatter come into contact with regular matter, and if I remember correctly, you only need a few grams of the stuff to cause a nuke level discharge of energy.

 

What will happen is this:

 

A. A Dreadnaught-sized rail-gun round containing a device to hold the Antimatter suspended is fired towards a Reaper.

 

B. The round impacts a kinetic barrier, discharging most of its energy in various ways - light, heat, kinetic energy, etc.

 

C. The device holding the Antimatter is destroyed, freeing the Antimatter to come in contact with matter.

 

D. A secondary massive discharge of energy occurs, possibly disrupting part the initial release of energy from the kinetic-kill-vehicle.

 

E. Depends on the amount of Antimatter used, the discharge of energy could be massive enough to take down a Reaper's barriers, or possibly even destroy it - remember, according to the lore, it takes around four Dreadnaught-sized kinetic strikes to destroy a Reaper's barriers, I'll leave the actual science to others (SuperJogi?  :P  ), but if a few grams of antimatter are enough to cause a small nuke-level explosion, I suspect that you won't need a large quantity - relative to the amount of radioactive material needed in a nuke - to reach the energy-discharge level of four Dreadnaught-sized kinetic strikes.

 

 

So, that thing about not being able to defeat the Reapers *conventionally*? It's actually correct, you simply need bigger, meaner, unconventional gunz. Or bombz.

 

You may still lose because of the Reaper numbers, but you will disrupt their economy and the ratio of Reapers lost / made per cycle enough, that maybe a few cycles down the line they will be destroyed.

 

Okay first off, on the "nanomachines" thing?  No.  That's a joke from Metal Gear Rising, where the only explanation you get IN CUTSCENE is "nanomachines son!" but if you actually call your tech expert on codec, he explains what they are doing (in that case, the guy hardens his body like a golem.  The nanomachines are responding to pressure like a blast shield and clumping together to harden the tissue".  The only "supernatural" character in the series is The Sorrow, who is a straight up spirit medium.  Everything else is just tech.  Even Vamp.

 

Granted, there's a few things they never bothered to explain, like how Vamp stood on top of and swimmed in nonbuoyant water, but its just a small detail.

 

Like 5% of Metal gear is "fantastic superpowers" but most of it is hard science.

 

Second, I didn't say they would "cancel each other". I said they would overlap, thus, be redundant.

 

Third, didn't catch the antimatter thing, i was just thinking in terms of conventional nukes, which, like I said, are largely obsolete by this point.



#74
Laughing_Man

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Okay first off, on the "nanomachines" thing?  No.  That's a joke from Metal Gear Rising, where the only explanation you get IN CUTSCENE is "nanomachines son!" but if you actually call your tech expert on codec, he explains what they are doing (in that case, the guy hardens his body like a golem.  The nanomachines are responding to pressure like a blast shield and clumping together to harden the tissue".  The only "supernatural" character in the series is The Sorrow, who is a straight up spirit medium.  Everything else is just tech.  Even Vamp.

 

Granted, there's a few things they never bothered to explain, like how Vamp stood on top of and swimmed in nonbuoyant water, but its just a small detail.

 

Like 5% of Metal gear is "fantastic superpowers" but most of it is hard science.

 

Second, I didn't say they would "cancel each other". I said they would overlap, thus, be redundant.

 

Third, didn't catch the antimatter thing, i was just thinking in terms of conventional nukes, which, like I said, are largely obsolete by this point.

 

Well you mentioned Vamp so here's an example from Wiki:

 

"...He also seemed to have a degree of control over one's shadow. This was especially apparent during his fight with Raiden in the purification chamber where he could impale Raiden's shadow and prevent him from moving. Otacon hypothesized that this "shadow-binding" technique, also known as Kagenui, was some form of hypnotism; the power of suggestion augmented by Vamp's speech and movements, coupled with the manipulation of the light reflecting off the blade of his knife."

 

May the flying spaghetti monster save me from Metal Gear's version of "hard science". Amen.

 

Regarding Nukes, it wouldn't be out of the question that at this point in time nukes could have become more efficient than our nukes, and therefore more effective.



#75
MrFob

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Ok, so here is a question that is sort of loosely related to the whole radiation issue:

If I am not mistaken, ME ships can travel up to just about 5000 times the speed of light (reapers more like 10000, see last paragraph of this post).

 

Now, according to the codex, to an outside observer, all radiation, that the ship emits is blueshifted to the equivalent of the "FTL factor" (see here). It even mentions that if the ship travels at 200 times the speed of light, EM in the visual spectrum will be shifted to x-rays and gamma rays. Now, imagine what kind of energy a ship must emit, when it travels at 5000 times the speed of light.

So what would happen if a sip passes by a planet with that kind of speed? Is the actual amount of radiation too insignificant, despite the high energy? Or will it just contaminate an entire hemisphere? Burn it to ashes? I honestly don't know but it sounds like they should better have some dam good shielding for busy traffic routes however they do it.