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[dorktainian]

Semantics.

 

This is killing:

 

and she was having such a nice dream.

[Vazgen]

...

I agree that this is subjective and up to the player to decide. The Catalyst believes it does not kill those people and by its standards, it's correct. The clone in Citadel DLC lacked Shepard's memories, but as Javik stated, those are stored in the DNA is well. So the only thing being killed in the process is the body, the vessel. Thus "ascension". And then the philosophical question of the meaning of life is raised - does the person lose something else than the body when harvested? 

 

This discussion started from this comment:

Synthetic vs organic conflict was not introduced in the last few minutes. It was there since ME1. It just wasn't in-your-face type of content and thus flew by a lot of players. 

 

I totally agree that portrayal of that conflict as major is lacking. Personally, I blame ME2 for making Reapers partly organic and (see below) all the references for the conflict being optional. But still, the conflict is different from the others. Codex:

 

As operators teach AI to reason and filter incoming data, they increase the AI's processing speed. At a year's age, an AI can observe, consider, and react hundreds of times faster than its organic creators. Mature AIs may be frustrated by the comparative "slowness" of the organics they must interact with.

Galactic culture mistrusts synthetic life. While physically immobile, an AI can assert its will by taking control of networked computing systems. AI laboratories are physically isolated from the galactic extranet and placed in remote, uninhabited locales.

Some futurists believe the ascendancy of synthetics is inevitable. The theory of technological singularity asserts that as the rate of technological advancement increases, there will come a point at which AIs can modify themselves faster than organics can. Eventually, synthetic life will be able to self-evolve so rapidly, organics will lose the ability to comprehend the process.

Not all believe such an evolution to be negative. Transcendency cults believe organic minds will one day be uploaded and emulated as software data, providing synthetic immortality.

 

Overlord DLC mentions what can happen if David gets access to the extranet. The potential dangers of AIs are much greater than those of organic races. And Tali mentions that synthetics don't need organics, that's why the geth isolated themselves behind the Veil. So in the end we have synthetics who are 1) much more advanced than organics 2) don't have a need for organics. That's pretty scary, if you ask me. 

[Winterking]

I totally agree that portrayal of that conflict as major is lacking. Personally, I blame ME2 for making Reapers partly organic and all the references for the conflict being optional. 

I'm not sure but I thought Bioware always intended for the Reapers to be partly organic due to the Leviathan of Dis. Back in Mass Effect 1, the description of Jartar mentions a "genetically engineered living starship". 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Also, wtf does "essense" even mean. All it reminds me of is General Ripper.

 

I think it refers to mental faculties, knowledge, and memories.

 

It is, in the ME-U, essential information. Take Shepard: despite a new, augmented post-Lazarus body, he still remained himself because his memory was intact.

 

Your physical form, by contrast, is seen by the Catalyst as unimportant. I think Harbinger says something to that effect in his battle taunts.

[Winterking]

This is where it all gets stupid.. As much as I like ME2... It's bookended by the two most retarded ideas in the series. "Lazarus" and "Essence".

 

Also, I feel like being petty and insulting Drew K. He was a like furniture mover or trashman before working at Bioware. I forget which. And it shows here.

"Essence" is an idea from Mass Effect 1. The Cypher was the "very essence of being a prothean". 

[Vazgen]

I'm not sure but I thought Bioware always intended for the Reapers to be partly organic due to the Leviathan of Dis. Back in Mass Effect 1, the description of Jartar mentions a "genetically engineered living starship". 

Oh, I see, one less blame on ME2 now

[dorktainian]

always wondered if the collectors were not decomposing bodies in their little chambers at all so to speak, but rather hooking people up into their dream matrix rip off thingy.  Think about it.  All the humans are asleep, but one stirs (either kelly or that other bint) and they are disintegrated.  The rest oblivious..... because they are dreaming.

[Iakus]

I'm not sure but I thought Bioware always intended for the Reapers to be partly organic due to the Leviathan of Dis. Back in Mass Effect 1, the description of Jartar mentions a "genetically engineered living starship". 

The LEviathan of Dis at the time was an easter egg (ME1 was full of them)  It was a reference to Moya from Farscape.  Which was also a "Leviathan"

[Winterking]

The LEviathan of Dis at the time was an easter egg (ME1 was full of them)  It was a reference to Moya from Farscape.  Which was also a "Leviathan"

 

I stand corrected then. I've always thought that it was foreshadowing of the Reapers true nature... 

[dreamgazer]

I stand corrected then. I've always thought that it was foreshadowing of the Reapers true nature... 

 

It was widely speculated long before ME3 that the Leviathan was actually a Reaper.  

 

Being a reference to Farscape, which it partially is, doesn't negate that perception or possibility.

[Iakus]

It was widely speculated long before ME3 that the Leviathan was actually a Reaper.  

 

Being a reference to Farscape, which it partially is, doesn't negate that perception or possibility.

I don't recall that speculation starting up until after ME2.

 

Though I admit I didn't really hit the forums much until then anyway.

[God]

Semantics.

 

This is killing:

 

 

Looks like harvesting to me. Same thing, but it puts what they do in a different light.

[Iakus]

I guess this is what happens when we (or at least, western society) has been taught (consciously or subconsciously) a materialistic worldview for hundreds of years. Then stuff like that is easily labeled as "harvesting". I can see why it isn't a hurdle.

 

It's OK Kelly... we still love you. Even as a grey oily puddle.

Would Be Rude To Say "Genocide"

[Coyotebay]

This is going to the point where you have to define what makes an individual. In ME universe (I mention this again, we are working with fictional universe here) the person is basically stored within DNA. Cloning is possible (as seen in Citadel DLC) and all knowledge, experience and skills are also stored in DNA (Javik's words). So unless we are arguing the notion of soul, harvesting =/= killing in ME universe. That said, the Reapers still kill those they do not harvest. Those people are presumed not worthy of storing, probably because they don't add any new traits or skills. And, of course, there are casualties from people resisting them.

I was talking about the quote from that AI on the Presidium, not the Reapers. It is there where you hear that "organics must destroy or control all synthetic life" for the first time, in ME1. You also seem to forget that all those friendly interactions would not have taken place without the Reapers. EDI - based on Sovereign hardware, created after it attacked the Citadel. Legion - designed to monitor actions of Old Machines and Shepard in organic space, created after the Sovereign attack. Remove the Reapers from equation and you'll only find examples of synthetics destroying organics or vice versa. No examples of cooperation. And here are examples of conflict from the games (unrelated to the Reapers) - Rogue AI on the Presidium, Rogue VI on Luna, Rogue VI in ME2 (those hacked mechs), Geth destroying 99% of Quarian population in Morning War and Quarians almost destroying the Geth in ME3 (before Reaper intervention). The problem is even acknowledged by the Council who passed regulations on developing AI technology.

The Catalyst does not say that synthetics will destroy all organics because they are just that evil. It says that the conflict is a result of synthetics surpassing their creators. And what does that mean? Organics fear that, because the day will come when synthetics will realize that they no longer need organics. And they don't know what will happen then. 

It is important to remember that this all takes place in a fictional universe with fictional factions, element zero etc. This conflict is one of the building blocks of the universe, present in the codex from the first game and referenced throughout the trilogy, just like eezo, mass relays, Alliance etc. Trying to apply real life standards to it is not going to work.

 

Well you kind of have to buy into two things to be on board with what the writers were trying to convey with the Reapers.  One is that synthetics will always surpass organics, and the second is determinism.  I personally don't see synthetic life as surpassing organic life.  Both have their advantages and limitations.  I see the development of synthetic life as the next great phase in technology, but the scientific development of advanced biological life will be far more complex and far-reaching.  But that's just my opinion.  And determinism meaning that if you have a million civilizations creating a million advanced AIs, a million times out of a million the creators will try to control the synthetics and the synthetics will rise up and destroy them.  I don't believe in determinism, I believe in free will and infinite possible outcomes.  I don't think anything is pre-destined. 

 

I'm not sure what you mean that you wouldn't have the friendly interactions with synthetics like EDI without the Reapers.  EDI is a self-aware AI who, given free will, works with the crew of the Normandy and begins to understand and relate to them.  It doesn't matter who created her.  Anyone with the proper technology can create an EDI.  Sure, they have rogue AIs and a big synthetic/organic conflict in the series, and it's great for making an exciting story, but inserting those things into the story doesn't make me believe that there is this inevitable synthetic vs. organic showdown around every corner.  I will always look at the Geth/Quarian conflict as being not much different than any other conflict where one race tries to oppress or destroy another.

 

I know the Bratalyst isn't having the Reapers do all this because it's all muahahaha evil, and if I gave that impression it's my fault.  The Bratalyst was given a job at the beginning, solve the synthetic/organic problem, which again goes back to whether or not you buy into this base premise that there truly is a problem.  So the Reapers was the solution the Bratalyst came up with.  Yes, Bratalyst does act on cold logic, and ironically is much better portrayed than the Reapers, who display very human traits of arrogance and hostility.  I would like to think the Bratalyst's conclusion that its solution isn't working anymore, and allowing Shepard to choose a different one, is a concession to the idea that free will trumps determinism.

[wright1978]

Looks like harvesting to me. Same thing, but it puts what they do in a different light.

 

Doesn't really put it into a different light. It's still killing even if they re-purpose the grey sludge.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Killing doesn't save the essence. The reapers save the essence to put it in a new form, what they do is a harvest. 

 

That is a bunch of BS. What is the essence?

[dreamgazer]

That is a bunch of BS. What is the essence?

The very essence of being a species. Describing it further would be like describing color to a creature without eyes. To understand, you must have access to endemic ancestral memory, a viewpoint spanning thousands of generations.

[Iakus]

That is a bunch of BS. What is the essence?

THe essence of a species.  Organic energy.

 

Duh  

[Coyotebay]

THe essence of a species.  Organic energy.

 

Duh  

 

You mean like what's in an Odwalla?