467 réponses à ce sujet

[Vazgen]

Well you kind of have to buy into two things to be on board with what the writers were trying to convey with the Reapers.  One is that synthetics will always surpass organics, and the second is determinism.  I personally don't see synthetic life as surpassing organic life.  Both have their advantages and limitations.  I see the development of synthetic life as the next great phase in technology, but the scientific development of advanced biological life will be far more complex and far-reaching.  But that's just my opinion.  And determinism meaning that if you have a million civilizations creating a million advanced AIs, a million times out of a million the creators will try to control the synthetics and the synthetics will rise up and destroy them.  I don't believe in determinism, I believe in free will and infinite possible outcomes.  I don't think anything is pre-destined. 

 

I'm not sure what you mean that you wouldn't have the friendly interactions with synthetics like EDI without the Reapers.  EDI is a self-aware AI who, given free will, works with the crew of the Normandy and begins to understand and relate to them.  It doesn't matter who created her.  Anyone with the proper technology can create an EDI.  Sure, they have rogue AIs and a big synthetic/organic conflict in the series, and it's great for making an exciting story, but inserting those things into the story doesn't make me believe that there is this inevitable synthetic vs. organic showdown around every corner.  I will always look at the Geth/Quarian conflict as being not much different than any other conflict where one race tries to oppress or destroy another.

 

I know the Bratalyst isn't having the Reapers do all this because it's all muahahaha evil, and if I gave that impression it's my fault.  The Bratalyst was given a job at the beginning, solve the synthetic/organic problem, which again goes back to whether or not you buy into this base premise that there truly is a problem.  So the Reapers was the solution the Bratalyst came up with.  Yes, Bratalyst does act on cold logic, and ironically is much better portrayed than the Reapers, who display very human traits of arrogance and hostility.  I would like to think the Bratalyst's conclusion that its solution isn't working anymore, and allowing Shepard to choose a different one, is a concession to the idea that free will trumps determinism.

There is a codex entry that mentions:

Some futurists believe the ascendancy of synthetics is inevitable. The theory of technological singularity asserts that as the rate of technological advancement increases, there will come a point at which AIs can modify themselves faster than organics can. Eventually, synthetic life will be able to self-evolve so rapidly, organics will lose the ability to comprehend the process.

Not all believe such an evolution to be negative. Transcendency cults believe organic minds will one day be uploaded and emulated as software data, providing synthetic immortality.

So that possibility is accepted within the universe. As for determinism, all the examples we see fit that criterion. Of course, this is not a definite proof. There is an old joke about this situation:

Challenge: Demonstrate that all odd numbers greater than 1 are prime.

Physicist: 3 is prime, 5 is prime, 7 is prime, 9 is experimental error, 11 is prime, 13 is prime, 15 is experimental error, 17 is prime, 19 is prime. The empirical evidence is overwhelming.

Here are other versions

 

EDI is based on Reaper hardware, Sovereign, to be more precise. Remove all Reaper-influenced synthetic vs organic relations from the games and all that's left is conflict. 

 

Overall, belief in Catalyst's solutions and assessment of the problem is not required. There is an option - Destroy, that destroys the Reapers and leaves the galaxy free from the Reaper influence. Control is a more tempered reaction, like "if the problem occurs, I'll be here". Synthesis is acceptance of the problem and going with the Catalyst's suggestion. Personally, I believe that the problem exists within the universe, but I also think that the organics will manage to deal with it without Reaper influence. That's why I choose Destroy.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The idea of "essence" or genetic memory has no proof of existence and is generally considered a false idea.

 

Is hamburger alive? Does an Odwalla have essence? How about a Pom Pom (Pomegranate juice)? 

 

when the collectors liquified the colonist or Kelly, they killed her. There was no "essence" captured. Just grey goop. The Catalyst made human marmalade. It was preserving nothing.

[Vazgen]

The idea of "essence" or genetic memory has no proof of existence and is generally considered a false idea.

 

Is hamburger alive? Does an Odwalla have essence? How about a Pom Pom (Pomegranate juice)? 

 

when the collectors liquified the colonist or Kelly, they killed her. There was no "essence" captured. Just grey goop. The Catalyst made human marmalade. It was preserving nothing.

Tell that to Javik. Experience is a biological marker, as is knowledge and skill. It's in your cells, your DNA. 

[Vazgen]

In this setting, yes...  You can't argue against that.

 

 

But Bioware themselves (not Javik) are pushing a particular flavor of kool-aid here. And trying to win people over to this by closing the audience to any other alternative views.

 

This is agenda-driven fiction. No different than a Mormon or Scientology story, hiding under some other guise. Knowing that saps out the fun (so I try not to dwell on it much). And it's at the root on why people complain about the endings. 

Anyone interested can research the issue and find out for themselves. Subscribing to a doctrine because of a video game sounds stupid to me. And encouraging people to research more is never a bad thing.

[Vazgen]

It is stupid, I agree. But it works sometimes. Ayn Rand built a whole following from some novels. Some have even run the highest levels of our country (Alan Greenspan). edit: Ahem. By "our" I mean Americans. Sorry, don't know where you're from.

LOL, I don't think Bioware can do anything about the stupidity of people playing their games. Blame education and upbringing, not video games

[JasonShepard]

It all runs on the assumption that awareness is a delusion, and consciousness (or "soul" if you will) doesn't exist. "The ghost in the machine". The worldview is materialistic, and what we think of as consciousness is a byproduct of the brain and/or genetics. Therefore Kelly exists, so long as the material does.

 

Coming from my own somewhat materialistic worldview, I'd say Kelly exists so long as the pattern exists. You could switch out every atom in Kelly's body for an identical replacement, and she'd still be Kelly - it's the arrangement of the atoms that matters.

 

If the nanites dissolving Kelly somehow 'remembered' that arrangement, then that could be considered her essence, since she could potentially be reconstructed/simulated. Though that wouldn't require the raw goop to be pumped into a Reaper shell, which for some reason is necessary so... *shrug*

 

Personally I prefer my pet theory that they were harvesting nervous systems, but that isn't supported by the dialogue. Especially since the dialogue goes on-and-on about 'genetic material'...

[Pasquale1234]

Until said synthetics finally reached a point where their nature of exponential growth puts them completely above other organics, in which case any kind of relationship that falls into violence would end with the organics entirely annihilated.

Kalros, some reaper-killing Leviathan, and a Crucible-firing galaxy might disagree.

[Pasquale1234]

The Geth weren't at war with the Quarians because synthetics and organics are natural enemies, they were at war with them because the Quarians had tried to destroy them out of fear.  And what did we see in the story repeatedly in the crew's interactions with Legion and with EDI?  That organics and synthetics actually can get along when you put aside fear and ignorance.  Kind of a parallel to what we see in the real world in racial and ethnic relations.

This.

My biggest problem with the premise is that every single in-game example of organic-synthetic conflict is based on xenophobic fear and ignorance. It would be a lot easier for me to accept the idea that synthetic-organic conflict requires a unique solution if the bases of these conflicts did not parallel organic-organic or synthetic-synthetic conflicts.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I'm not sure but I thought Bioware always intended for the Reapers to be partly organic due to the Leviathan of Dis. Back in Mass Effect 1, the description of Jartar mentions a "genetically engineered living starship". 

 

It always seemed more like a reference to Farscape.
 

[Iakus]

 

Is hamburger alive?  

I help it ascend 

[wright1978]

The idea of "essence" or genetic memory has no proof of existence and is generally considered a false idea.

 

Is hamburger alive? Does an Odwalla have essence? How about a Pom Pom (Pomegranate juice)? 

 

when the collectors liquified the colonist or Kelly, they killed her. There was no "essence" captured. Just grey goop. The Catalyst made human marmalade. It was preserving nothing.

 

It's delusion that preserving and re-using the genetic material in a new construct was preserving her essence is just that, a delusion.

[AlanC9]

I help it ascend 

Actually, becoming part of a human being is the highest thing that hamburger can aspire to. Not sure about cows.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

The idea of "essence" or genetic memory has no proof of existence and is generally considered a false idea.

No, there is some traction behind that particular idea IRL.

Regardless whether it is true or not, it is a real part of the Mass Effect world, even if things like biotics are not real to ours.
 

Is hamburger alive? Does an Odwalla have essence? How about a Pom Pom (Pomegranate juice)?

 
A Reaper is demonstrably alive though, so...

[JasonShepard]

The idea of "essence" or genetic memory has no proof of existence and is generally considered a false idea.

 

No, there is some traction behind that particular idea IRL.

 

I'm curious as to what you mean by that.

 

DNA is widely accepted in scientific literature as a blue-print. In other words, if you have human DNA, you have the instruction manual for making a baby. A human being, on the other hand, is so much more than a baby - they are the sum of their life-experiences up to that point. That memory is recorded as structures in the brain (although we're still trying to figure out how), not coded into the DNA (which is largely unchanged throughout your life - else DNA tests wouldn't work).

 

I suppose that instincts, developed over thousands of generations, could be interpreted as a kind of genetic memory (Assassin's Creed pays lip-service to that interpretation at the start of the first game just before jumping off the deep-end). Is that what you're referring to?

 

Also a sample of DNA does provide some clues as to the life lived by its owner. If they experience higher than normal radiation, it'll have signs of that, and which foods they eat can affect which genes get activated, that sort of thing. But I consider that to be the difference between a footprint and a shoe.

 

(This last paragraph is more targeted at whoever at Bioware wrote this stuff into the Mass Effect trilogy:)

 

But if you want the person that the DNA belonged to? You're going to need a lot more than just a DNA-sample. And similarly, if you were to melt down the entire human race into genetic goop then you'd lose all our memories, all our civilisation... you'd lose everything that made us... us.

 

You'd just have the instruction manuals for a whole load of human babies.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Exactly. When you melt down the entire human race into genetic goop you lose all the memories, the civilization, everything that made us... us.

 

You have human marmalade. Take the Synthesis Ending: It was one thing in the Original Ending where everyone became part synthetic and part organic - thus ending the cycle because the Catalyst's task was logically completed - no more organic life to preserve. In the Extended Cut Bioware rams the mystical engrams within the goop that suddenly came alive down everyone's throat by having the reapers share all the knowledge of past cycles. That is an agenda driven ending. This was their "plot twist." Don't harm the poor innocent reapers - you're the one wasting lives.

[AlanC9]

However, note that some level of mystical crap -- I've decided to just go with this term from now on -- was embedded into ME from the start. "Essence of a species," etc.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Not that I necessarily disagree about them being alive, but how do you demonstrate that?

 
"I think, therefore I am."
 
The Reapers are self-aware, and sapient. No one disputes that animals like horses and dolphins are alive and they are even less capable of thought than Reapers (self-aware, but not sapient). Not sure where this idea comes from that AI are not alive. Whether or not you believe synthetics are due the same treatment or rights of organics is another idea entirely.
 

I'm curious as to what you mean by that.
 
*snip*
 
But if you want the person that the DNA belonged to? You're going to need a lot more than just a DNA-sample. And similarly, if you were to melt down the entire human race into genetic goop then you'd lose all our memories, all our civilisation... you'd lose everything that made us... us

 
There is some belief that DNA can also be a medium of memory-storage/passage. This is not something BioWare writers came up with themselves.
 
http://www.bbc.com/n...health-25156510
http://www.wired.co..../25/gene-memory
 
Whether or not there is truth to that, it is how the Reapers function. Whatever memories existed onto DNA is now the Reapers' knowledge.
 

Exactly. When you melt down the entire human race into genetic goop you lose all the memories, the civilization, everything that made us... us.
 
You have human marmalade. Take the Synthesis Ending: It was one thing in the Original Ending where everyone became part synthetic and part organic - thus ending the cycle because the Catalyst's task was logically completed - no more organic life to preserve. In the Extended Cut Bioware rams the mystical engrams within the goop that suddenly came alive down everyone's throat by having the reapers share all the knowledge of past cycles. That is an agenda driven ending. This was their "plot twist." Don't harm the poor innocent reapers - you're the one wasting lives.

 
The ME-U is not privy to what you believe. Genetic memory is canon in this fictional setting.
 
If you reject this, then you are also at odds with Javik, because that is how he is able to read and speak to primitives.