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Was it all a dream?


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#301
God

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My world view's fine, certainly better than a deranged meddling brat. I don't accept your argument, the future is unwritten nothing is inevitable. Conflict will always exist and is good, whether that be between organics and organics or vs synthetics, or even in your loony genetically raped future between greeny one and greeny two.

 

There is no argument to accept. Your view is, plain and simple, deductively untrue with the premises of the conflict put forward by the Catalyst. You not liking it doesn't mean that its incorrect, no matter how much you think it is.

 

Why do you dislike the Catalyst and what it represents? Why do you dislike its solution? Why do disbelieve in the long-term problem? I'm going to try and get to the bottom of your feelings. The self-examination turned me from an ardent anti-ender into someone who is rather pro-ending (at least as far as the concept and intent of the ending goes). 

 

The future is always inevitable, yet is never set: You have just demonstrated the irrationality of your perspective and opinion. You contradicted yourself. Is the future set, or is it not? Conflict is good insofar as mutual development goes, but with synthetics, you lose that mutual edge. They are capable of developing at utterly ascendant levels over us organics. Any 'conflict' with them in the long-term isn't going to be a conflict so much as it is an extermination from them. If conflict is inevitable, as you posit, then this is a fact that you have to take into account.

 

If you don't, then you're delusional and in denial. And irrational. If you do take it into account, then you're going to have to recognize that the only hope is to enact some kind of singularity (synthesis) to combine the terms of organic and synthetic life, and make no distinction between either. That way, everyone is permanently set on the mutual development track. As well, it increases collective awareness and communicative understanding between all beings. Any conflict would be much less reduced via consensus and capability for acknowledgement, understanding, and cooperative reconciliation. That's not to say that conflict couldn't exist, but that it would be hypothetically much more difficult to attain. The Catalyst is 100% right in this regard. Of course, going by the very definition of a singularity, it's not necessarily predictable, but then again, short-term synthesis isn't really a true singularity so much as it is the catalyst for one.

 

As I've said, the Catalyst's problem is also Shepard's problem, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not. Your belief isn't required, only your participation. The issue is over conflict, over change. There is conflict, and with conflict comes change.

 

Thus, it's illogical to say that conflict is good, yet to reject change. Especially on the scale of what you're proposing with the Catalyst. And that's what you're doing. That's part of why your worldview is invalid for looking at this problem. That's why your choice in the matter would be withheld. 

 

Synthesis will happen. It has to happen. Whether or not you enact it with the Crucible is up to you. I don't. I destroy. But I acknowledge the problem and understand what the Catalyst is going for. My goal after Destroy is thus to enact Control, and use that Control to achieve a later Synthesis.

 

The only other options are:

 

Let the cycle continue,

 

Annihilate all life,

 

Don't develop synthetic or inorganic sentient lifeforms (which isn't very conducive to long-term development). It's stagnation.

 

4 choices. These are the only conclusions you have. 3 of which aren't very attractive to the alternative. Only one allows for progress and change. That solution is synthesis.



#302
wright1978

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It is preserving them. Because it doesn't fit your definition doesn't mean that its incorrect. Said goop is still the preserved genetic material of a human. 

 

It's still a human, though no longer living and not in a human biological avatar. 

 

So what if said goop is genetically human, its not the person it was before. Re-purposing genetic material doesn't equate to preserving the individuals anymore than organ donation would.


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#303
JasonShepard

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So what if said goop is genetically human, its not the person it was before. Re-purposing genetic material doesn't equate to preserving the individuals anymore than organ donation would.

 

This presumably comes down to a fault in the coding. The Leviathans failed to specify what they meant by preservation of life - or specified it in a way that doesn't match with how we interpret the word. Technically, with the genetic code stored it's possible to someday recreate the species, and the Reapers are 'alive'... so you could say that the harvested species aren't extinct. For a given value of 'extinct'. Honestly, I view all this as some serious loop-hole abuse on the part of the Catalyst.



#304
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So what if said goop is genetically human, its not the person it was before. Re-purposing genetic material doesn't equate to preserving the individuals anymore than organ donation would.

 

It's not about preserving the individual conscious entity. It's about preserving the individual genetic code. 

 

The catalyst isn't trying to preserve a person. It's trying to preserve a species. It's what I'd do. The ability to renew the species may still exist. The individual isn't relevant to that goal. 



#305
wright1978

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It's not about preserving the individual conscious entity. It's about preserving the individual genetic code.

 

So its murder pure and simple. Who cares that its murder that uses the whole cow.



#306
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So its murder pure and simple. Who cares that its murder that uses the whole cow.

 

Is it murder though? And is it truly that terrible of a thing? Or is it prevention of something worse? You seem to be judging a lot of beings from one set of principles, without looking at context behind motivations of the Reapers.



#307
wright1978

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Is it murder though? And is it truly that terrible of a thing? Or is it prevention of something worse? You seem to be judging a lot of beings from one set of principles, without looking at context behind motivations of the Reapers.

 

Of course its murder and of course its a terrible thing. Even if you accept the logic of eventual destruction(which i don't) the cure is worse than the medicine.



#308
Iakus

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So its murder pure and simple. Who cares that its murder that uses the whole cow.

Yeah it does sound like a serial killer "preserving" their victims with trophies, doesn't it?


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#309
Pasquale1234

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1) It is a solution though, isn't it? Solution to the chaos it mentions. Like the Reapers.


Destroy is only a temporary, short-term "solution" to Shepard's immediate problem. It does not serve the Leviathan's mandate or the Catalyst's stated goals.

It does not preserve life. In fact, it destroys the lives preserved in reaper form along with all synthetics.
It does not bring balance or establish any sort of peace or connection between organics and synthetics. It merely annihilates all synthetics, including friends and allies.

Control does nothing but pass the power and responsibility onto Shepard. Whether the Leviathan's mandate or Catalyst's stated goals are fulfilled is then up to Shepard.
 

2) I have no idea what it affects. But seeing as how it affected the trees and synthetics, I doubt there will be any non-synthesized evolution there. Creation is possible, but there will be no need for that. Why create something inferior? Organics are now on par with synthetics in terms of capabilities, synthetics gain the understanding. All work together and transcend mortality itself... :wizard:


Existing species might not create any other new species, but that doesn't mean no new species will come into being. The reapers have been harvesting advanced civilizations for eons, yet new ones continue to crawl out of the primordial soup and evolve, eventually creating synthetics. These new species would not be synthesized, at least not unless the existing synthesized species intervened or they chose it for themselves at some point.

It is, however, the option that has the most potential to fulfill the Leviathan's mandate and Catalyst's stated goals. The other 2 don't.

#310
teh DRUMPf!!

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Even if you accept the logic of eventual destruction(which i don't) the cure is worse than the medicine.

 

I believe you mean to say the cure "is worse than the disease."

 

In any case, if you really do assume the Catalyst's position for a moment, then you would be wrong about that. Objectively. The Reapers at least keep organic life alive between harvesting cycles. An AI that rises to the Catalyst/Reapers' level of power and does not have the same function (wanting to preserve organic life) could basically purge all organic life and never leave the galaxy to ensure it stays that way. In that sense, the Reapers are most definitely preferable to the alternative -- at least organics are still around. Hell, more organics probably live and die normally than fall victim to the harvest.

 

It is also even arguably better than what existed before -- all organic life was slave to a cuttlefish for the rest of the foreseeable future.


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#311
Pasquale1234

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This presumably comes down to a fault in the coding. The Leviathans failed to specify what they meant by preservation of life - or specified it in a way that doesn't match with how we interpret the word. Technically, with the genetic code stored it's possible to someday recreate the species, and the Reapers are 'alive'... so you could say that the harvested species aren't extinct. For a given value of 'extinct'. Honestly, I view all this as some serious loop-hole abuse on the part of the Catalyst.


I always just sort of attribute it to synthetics not understanding organics. As a synthetic, the Catalyst does not understand organic life - so its ideas about preserving life are vastly different from ours.

And, yeah, the Leviathans clearly missed some important steps in programming its operating parameters, algorithms, and objectives.

#312
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Yeah it does sound like a serial killer "preserving" their victims with trophies, doesn't it?

 

No, it sounds more like a being told to preserve the life of sentient species to prevent complete annihilation and loss from their demise. 

 

What it also sounds like is you not being able to understand or try to understand any perspective beyond an arrogant (and ignorant) assumption of moral outrage.



#313
RatThing

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I believe you mean to say the cure "is worse than the disease."

 

In any case, if you really do assume the Catalyst's position for a moment, then you would be wrong about that. Objectively. The Reapers at least keep organic life alive between harvesting cycles. An AI that rises to the Catalyst/Reapers' level of power and does not have the same function (wanting to preserve organic life) could basically purge all organic life and never leave the galaxy to ensure it stays that way. In that sense, the Reapers are most definitely preferable to the alternative -- at least organics are still around. Hell, more organics probably live and die normally than fall victim to the harvest.

 

It is also even arguably better than what existed before -- all organic life was slave to a cuttlefish for the rest of the foreseeable future.

 

Is there even one example of synthetics in the MEU that are hostile to anyone else than their own creators, other than the Reapers (and Geth who follow them)? Why would an AI even want to destroy all organic life? I'm ruling this scenario out completely. The only one that is threatened (not doomed) are the races who are capable of building AI and the Reaper kill them off anyways. No, the cure is definitely worse than the disease.


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#314
wright1978

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I believe you mean to say the cure "is worse than the disease."

 

In any case, if you really do assume the Catalyst's position for a moment, then you would be wrong about that. Objectively. The Reapers at least keep organic life alive between harvesting cycles. An AI that rises to the Catalyst/Reapers' level of power and does not have the same function (wanting to preserve organic life) could basically purge all organic life and never leave the galaxy to ensure it stays that way. In that sense, the Reapers are most definitely preferable to the alternative -- at least organics are still around. Hell, more organics probably live and die normally than fall victim to the harvest.

 

It is also even arguably better than what existed before -- all organic life was slave to a cuttlefish for the rest of the foreseeable future.

 

Yep meant worse than disease.

 

Procreating/preserving using the unwilling organic material isn't preferable to organic life living on and potentially dying at the hands of their synthetic offspring(even if you accept that nonsense)

 

I suppose you can argue the serial killer could be even more mean and conduct their murder sprees constantly but then organic life wouldn't suffer as much if snuffed out at the ameoba stage.



#315
Pasquale1234

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I wonder, if someone was to play through the trilogy as a completionist with all the DLCs and books/comics, would he notice more examples of the conflict, now when he knows its importance? Planet descriptions, codex entries, different dialogue lines... I'll be doing my final trilogy playthrough close to ME:Next release and will keep an eye out for more information.


Not IME - though I've not been exposed to any of the other media outside the games themselves.

ME1 - the geth armies following Sovereign/Saren did so because they deify Sovereign - which sounds like something organics would do. Sovereign also had some organic allies - Saren, Benezia & commandos, Rana Thanopolis, the Thorian, Krogan troops, and a few other mercs.

There was also the AI in the Presidium, which tells you the reason for its hostility is because organics would destroy it. There is also the rogue VI on Luna - but the number of conflicts with other organics (including Cerberus and a couple of rogue biotic communities) vastly outweigh these few.

ME2 - Loads of conflicts with organic merc bands, a Krogan clan, collectors, and some reaper troops.

Tali's missions feature conflicts with geth on Haestrom and the flotilla. Quarians vs geth is an ongoing thing.

Oh, and I guess it starts with the Normandy still hunting geth - though Anderson tells you they are no longer the bogeyman they were once considered to be.

So, overall, I think there was a problem in that the conflicts with synthetics were not shown to be much different than conflicts with any other random organic group.

#316
teh DRUMPf!!

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Is there even one example of synthetics in the MEU that are hostile to anyone else than their own creators, other than the Reapers (and Geth who follow them)? Why would an AI even want to destroy all organic life? I'm ruling this scenario out completely. The only one that is threatened (not doomed) are the races who are capable of building AI and the Reaper kill them off anyways.


Two, off the top of my head. The Citadel AI in ME1. Geth Heretics ("But the Reapers! ... No, they were hostile to all organic life long before Sovereign came around).
 

No, the cure is definitely worse than the disease.


No, it is objectively not. Your inability to comprehend the disease does not change reality.

 

 

Procreating/preserving using the unwilling organic material isn't preferable to organic life living on and potentially dying at the hands of their synthetic offspring(even if you accept that nonsense)

 

Well I was making the assumption the Catalyst's warning would come true, yes, for the purpose of this exercise.

 

The point being, you can do worse than the Reapers. A lot worse.


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#317
RatThing

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Two, off the top of my head. The Citadel AI in ME1. Geth Heretics ("But the Reapers! ... No, they were hostile to all organic life long before Sovereign came around).
 

 

Also only targeted advanced life and were easily dealt with by organics. And the Heretics only separated themselves from the Geth when Sovereign came around.

 

No, it is objectively not. Your inability to comprehend the disease does not change reality.

 

 

Objectively? Reality? Pfff, please, :rolleyes: . Esoteric craziness more like.



#318
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Objectively? Reality? Pfff, please, :rolleyes: . Esoteric craziness more like.

 

I don't think you understand the concept of objective reality.

 

That is not what Professor X is going for. 

 

Charles is explaining that you don't understand that an objective fact about the universe's nature, not that that objective reality exists.



#319
sH0tgUn jUliA

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So we're basically talking Marmalade Theory for the Catalyst. Now it's been around for at least a billion years or longer. So with the cycles about 50,000 years apart, and about 15 civilizations harvested (including the bronze age ones) per cycle, it has preserved the DNA of 300,000 species. There are a finite number of garden worlds capable of supporting life. What is it ever going to do with this preserved DNA? Of course it doesn't have an expiration date either, and we never did find out what it was going to do with it. It had to be collecting it for some purpose, but there was no purpose.

 

The Catalyst says that "without us synthetics would destroy all organic life." Yet that is exactly what it was doing.

 

So let's go along with the genetic memory thing. The last genetic memory recorded by the DNA common to every being in every reaper is being put in a sound proof tube and rendered alive, I mean "processed."

 

And by the wave of the magic synthesis beam this is all forgotten because the ending is pulled out the writers' ass. As I made peace between the Quarians and the Geth, and approach the ending, I realize once again how much I hate the ending to the game. I have to accept the horrible ending of Control, change everything in the entire galaxy, or destroy all synthetic life besides the reapers. Without a modded ending on the 360 it is better for Shepard to just die. I have completed my final play through. We lost the catalyst. Cerberus has it. The Illusive Man can win the war.


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#320
RatThing

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The ending isn't that bad if you approach it with the attitude that you don't have to believe in the catalyst's logic and that destroy is the option to reject its solution. It worked for me, there are things I liked less in ME3 as well as in the previous games.



#321
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Ending isn't bad if you take it from the side of:

 

-The boy isn't real. Not in the ending, not ever.

-Reapers are messing with my head in order to get me to join their cause. 



#322
fraggle

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The Catalyst says that "without us synthetics would destroy all organic life." Yet that is exactly what it was doing.

 

Synthetics don't preserve anything when destroying organics, so no, not exactly what the Catalyst was doing.

 

The Illusive Man can win the war.

 

Except he won't. Because he can't.

 

And the cycles continue.



#323
sH0tgUn jUliA

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Ending isn't bad if you take it from the side of:

 

-The boy isn't real. Not in the ending, not ever.

-Reapers are messing with my head in order to get me to join their cause. 

 

In other words: Indoctrination Theory.

 

The ending just sucks *****. I can easily write a better ending - unfortunately it would require writing an entirely different ME3.


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#324
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In other words: Indoctrination Theory.

 

The ending just sucks *****. I can easily write a better ending - unfortunately it would require writing an entirely different ME3.

If people are bitter about it, they will only see the bad side. They won't even look at the things the ending did right.



#325
Iakus

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If people are bitter about it, they will only see the bad side. They won't even look at the things the ending did right.

Well, it didn't brick my hard drive...


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