467 réponses à ce sujet

[Vazgen]

I'm not trying to deny that there isn't any conflict, just that the underlying causes as shown by things like the Rannoch arc are different than the way the ending is presenting them. The underlying tension later in the series always seems to stem more from prejudice on the side of the organics, so thematically, the conflict doesn't seem so much an Organic vs Synthetic one but a scifi version of tensions we see today because they are robots. It's a problem and it does lead to conflict, but it's hardly one that needs Synthesis to be solved. I think it's telling that peace on Rannoch is accomplished through telling the Quarians to not repeat the mistakes of the past and stand down; even choosing the Geth doesn't seem like picking Synthetics over organics but more like a condemning the Quarians for not being inclusive enough (considering the comments from Chris L'etoile and Patrick Weekes, this does seem like what they were going for).

 

The conflict though in the ending seems to be one that stems from organics and synthetics being fundamentally different beings. Same conflicts in the most literal sense, but other wise different in almost every way. And I think because of that the ending feels so jarring despite it talking about robots fighting people in a series where robots fight people, because all that subtext is very, very different. I talk about feelings because a lot of this stems more from interpreting themes and less about discerning the certainty of organic distinction at the hands of synthetics based off in game lore.

 

(P.S. I know a lot of this is repeating, but the conversation above is old hat and isn't going to lead any where productive. This I find much more interesting to talk about).

Yes, it all comes from the prejudice, but what is the reason for prejudice? Answer: the other side being synthetics. No organic race faces the same prejudice. Even the Krogan who used asteroids as weapons and almost conquered the whole galaxy get mixed opinions. Even the Rachni, with Mordin labeling their destruction as a mistake. There is nothing like that for synthetics. Tali mourns Legion but she is fine with destroying the Geth. "Shepard, you can't choose the Geth over my people."

There are fundamental misunderstandings between organics and synthetics. Those misunderstandings result in prejudice against synthetics, one that is first introduced in Drew Karpyshyn's Revelation novel when Council regulations against AI research are established. Synthesis is called to remove that misunderstanding as outright stated by the Catalyst. As for the feelings, you realize that peace on Rannoch is basically a capitulation of the Quarians? Shepard threatens them to cease fire. "The Geth are about to come back at full strength. If you keep firing, they'll wipe you out" - this line is not dependent on player input. But because the Geth are presented as peaceful and innocent, players view Quarian actions as acceptance. 

What's great about the endings is that you don't have to agree with the Catalyst at all. Destroy the Reapers and reject the whole idea of conflict and inevitability of organic destruction. "The technology you rely on will be affected" - what technology does the galaxy rely on? "Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your civilization develops along the paths we desire."

[teh DRUMPf!!]

So countless cycles eradicated only because of an assumption for which there is absolutely no evidence available is supposed to be better? What are you smoking dude to call that logic? The disease doesn`t even exist, the possibility for an AI to destroy all life is zero (after hypothesis testing of course).

 

Um, it does exist. The Catalyst proved it with... himself: an AI rose to power and the organics of its time had no match for it.

 

The only reason it did not go all the way, ironically, was because of its function (to preserve organics).

 

So, the disease is just the same thing occurring minus the function. It happened once, it can happen again. So when you insist (with feet stomping, no doubt) that the cure is worse than the disease by denying the existence of the disease entirely, you are wrong, because the counter-example is sitting right in front of us.

 

You know what else the cycles are preferable to? Since clearly you cannot fathom things unless they actually take place, I will bring up something concrete that did: Leviathan. In that state of being, all organics lived as thralls, and would remain that way for the foreseeable future. At least under the Catalyst, most organic civilization was free to build their own society as they wanted until the Reapers came to hit the reset button.

 

Did we not all conclude that extinction is preferable to submission earlier on in the trilogy? What uncomfortable irony to see the Reapers are closer to that notion than we thought...

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Hey I've got an idea. Some people are experimenting with biological warfare. Maybe we should create a machine that would "preserve" all humans right now just in case someone actually would create something like the zombie apocalypse sometime in the far future. It would preserve our essence and be better than the alternative, right?

 

Yeah, preserving organics into synthetic form is such an awful idea....

 

... so awful that another organic civilization did it.

 

http://masseffect.wi...i/Virtual_Alien

[God]

Yeah, preserving organics into synthetic form is such an awful idea....

 

... so awful that another organic civilization did it.

 

http://masseffect.wi...i/Virtual_Alien

 

It's part of the long-term plan for transhumanism as well. Finding a means to transcend mortality. 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Yeah, preserving organics into synthetic form is such an awful idea....

 

... so awful that another organic civilization did it.

 

http://masseffect.wi...i/Virtual_Alien

 

Wrong. The virtual aliens are in no way the same as this. Their minds were uploaded into a virtual reality. It was voluntary. And from what was demonstrated on the Citadel it was not painful either.

 

The reapers did what is in this video to people. It isn't transhumanism. It isn't transcending mortality. Stop making that comparison.

 

 

The people were put into sound-proof tubes and rendered alive, their last memories nothing but sheer terror. The purpose of the sound-proof tubes was so that the screaming would not alarm those waiting to be "processed."

[RatThing]

Um, it does exist. The Catalyst proved it with... himself: an AI rose to power and the organics of its time had no match for it.

 

The only reason it did not go all the way, ironically, was because of its function (to preserve organics).

 

So, the disease is just the same thing occurring minus the function. It happened once, it can happen again. So when you insist (with feet stomping, no doubt) that the cure is worse than the disease by denying the existence of the disease entirely, you are wrong, because the counter-example is sitting right in front of us.

 

You know what else the cycles are preferable to? Since clearly you cannot fathom things unless they actually take place, I will bring up something concrete that did: Leviathan. In that state of being, all organics lived as thralls, and would remain that way for the foreseeable future. At least under the Catalyst, most organic civilization was free to build their own society as they wanted until the Reapers came to hit the reset button.

 

Did we not all conclude that extinction is preferable to submission earlier on in the trilogy? What uncomfortable irony to see the Reapers are closer to that notion than we thought...

 

The reason the catalyst did not go all the way was that it never had a reason to. No AI ever had so no AI ever would. The only reason other synthetics became hostile to organics was because they did not want to be controlled or destroyed by them. This has been stated several times in the games, hence also the catalysts' expression "the created will always rebel against their creators". This is the problem the catalyst is trying to solve and it excludes every organic lifeform that is not capable of building AI. There is absolutely no reason to assume that there will ever be an AI that is inherently hostile towards all organic life.  

And again, Leviathan are organic life. Reapers wanted to exterminate Leviathan but couldn`t. This is proof that Reapers could not exterminate all organic life even if they wanted to "go all the way". So there goes your counter-example.

And you don't know enough about the Leviathan era to make claims that extinction is supposed to be better than their reign. Races had the freedom to build AI, so they must have had some kind of freedom.

[Iakus]

Um, it does exist. The Catalyst proved it with... himself: an AI rose to power and the organics of its time had no match for it.

 

The only reason it did not go all the way, ironically, was because of its function (to preserve organics).

 

So, the disease is just the same thing occurring minus the function. It happened once, it can happen again. So when you insist (with feet stomping, no doubt) that the cure is worse than the disease by denying the existence of the disease entirely, you are wrong, because the counter-example is sitting right in front of us.

 

You know what else the cycles are preferable to? Since clearly you cannot fathom things unless they actually take place, I will bring up something concrete that did: Leviathan. In that state of being, all organics lived as thralls, and would remain that way for the foreseeable future. At least under the Catalyst, most organic civilization was free to build their own society as they wanted until the Reapers came to hit the reset button.

 

Did we not all conclude that extinction is preferable to submission earlier on in the trilogy? What uncomfortable irony to see the Reapers are closer to that notion than we thought...

So because it happened once, it's preordained to happen every time?  

 

And heck, the Reapers couldn't even wipe out their own creators!  Even after a billion years!

 

And oooh, clearly the only options are let the machines kill us or live as slaves to the Leviathans!  Sorry, I prefer Shepard's line "I've got a better idea, we destroy you, and live our lives in peace"

 

Not artistic enough?  

[God]

So because it happened once, it's preordained to happen every time?  

 

And heck, the Reapers couldn't even wipe out their own creators!  Even after a billion years!

 

And oooh, clearly the only options are let the machines kill us or live as slaves to the Leviathans!  Sorry, I prefer Shepard's line "I've got a better idea, we destroy you, and live our lives in peace"

 

Not artistic enough?  

 

It happened a lot more than once. 

 

And space is a large place. Even one galaxy. The Leviathans have infinite places to hide, especially if they know how to hide themselves.

 

Then you will fail. You will always fail. You will always fall. Your lives will never be in peace so long as you deny what the Catalyst is and what it does. What it is meant for. That's what your views amount to. Failure. Because you're weak. You have the option of living in peace. It's called synthesis. Maybe not now, but it must happen, or you will condemn the galaxy to death.

[God]

Wrong. The virtual aliens are in no way the same as this. Their minds were uploaded into a virtual reality. It was voluntary. And from what was demonstrated on the Citadel it was not painful either.

 

The reapers did what is in this video to people. It isn't transhumanism. It isn't transcending mortality. Stop making that comparison.

 

The people were put into sound-proof tubes and rendered alive, their last memories nothing but sheer terror. The purpose of the sound-proof tubes was so that the screaming would not alarm those waiting to be "processed."

 

Then start understanding that no comparison was made. What the Reapers do to people is preservation. I see death, and I see preservation. 

 

The Reapers need material, and they don't need attachments like you do. That is why they are greater than you.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Then start understanding that no comparison was made. What the Reapers do to people is preservation. I see death, and I see preservation. 

 

The Reapers need material, and they don't need attachments like you do. That is why they are greater than you.

 

They're just machines. This time the organics are taking charge.

 

Ruul Said: Omega was a fan request, although hinted at in game.

 

No, Omega was planned DLC from the beginning.

[Iakus]

Some people unable to accept the idea of a bad ending. Happens in movies all the time. But, nope, they can't do it to Mass Effect. It's excused.

 

In movies we are passive observers.  In games we are active participants.  That makes "bad endings" much harder to pull off in games, especially when you've spent years touting "your choice matters" SInce that more than implies that it was your choices that created this "bad ending" you incompetent commander, you...

[dreamgazer]

No, Omega was planned DLC from the beginning.

Pretty obvious that both Liara in ME2 and Aria in ME3 had "INCOMING DLC" written above their heads.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

In movies we are passive observers.  In games we are active participants.  That makes "bad endings" much harder to pull off in games, especially when you've spent years touting "your choice matters" SInce that more than implies that it was your choices that created this "bad ending" you incompetent commander, you...

 

It's not just that... in this case it was more like "Five years! I wasted five years and 1200 hrs of game play for this?!"

 

 

Your choices shaped the third and final installment of the trilogy. Since there was no fourth game into carry over to, the third one is decided from stuff in the first two games. Mass Effect 3 is unique to you based on how you played the previous two games.

 

I think it was Gamble who said: "Even your decision about the Rachni queen in the first game will have a huge impact on the outcome of the final battle."

 

All the endings were the same except for the color of the explosions on your screen: You died, the relays were destroyed, and the Normandy crashed. The End. But if you were really lucky and played enough multi-player you got the infamous breath scene with the high EMS destroy ending.

 

"Did all that really happen?"

"Yes, but some of the details were lost with time. It all happened so very long ago."

 

Commander Shepard has become a legend. You can continue the legend by buying DLC.

[dreamgazer]

I think it was Gamble who said: "Even your decision about the Rachni queen in the first game will have a huge impact on the outcome of the final battle."

It was Mac, and it was a doctored quote in Entertainment Weekly that had other content before it.

[Torgette]

It's not just that... in this case it was more like "Five years! I wasted five years and 1200 hrs of game play for this?!"

 

 

I think it was Gamble who said: "Even your decision about the Rachni queen in the first game will have a huge impact on the outcome of the final battle."

 

All the endings were the same except for the color of the explosions on your screen: You died, the relays were destroyed, and the Normandy crashed. The End. But if you were really lucky and played enough multi-player you got the infamous breath scene with the high EMS destroy ending.

 

"Did all that really happen?"

"Yes, but some of the details were lost with time. It all happened so very long ago."

 

Commander Shepard has become a legend. You can continue the legend by buying DLC.

 

All I can say is i'm glad I waited 3 years to play ME3 with all the DLC already out and a completely fresh attitude and zero expectations.

[God]

They're just machines. This time the organics are taking charge.

 

And we organics are just primal beasts. The synthetics will arise again, and without the Reapers or synthesis to curb our own lack of regard for consequential actions, we'll be doomed.

[Iakus]

Your choices shaped the third and final installment of the trilogy. Since there was no fourth game into carry over to, the third one is decided from stuff in the first two games. Mass Effect 3 is unique to you based on how you played the previous two games. There were some things that happened in my game that didn't happen in yours.

 

And in everyone's ending we get Starbrat and RGB. It doesn't matter what choices you made.

 

 

If you know anything about game development, this game was crafted in a game engine (Unreal 3.5), by people working in a studio. It was not crafted by fans. You were merely participating in a story where the outcome was decided and Shepard's fate was sealed.

THen my choices did not, in fact, matter.

 

 

Other games have said similar things, where the player decides what happens, yet it ended in similar ways. No one got upset with those games.

 

Because when Bioware made the claim, it had enough of a rep that people actually thought they could pull it off.

 

I, at least, know better now.

[Torgette]

And we organics are just primal beasts. The synthetics will arise again, and without the Reapers or synthesis to curb our own lack of regard for consequential actions, we'll be doomed.

 

Well if that's the natural order of the universe then so be it, who were reapers to stop something bigger than themselves?

[Iakus]

You didn't read or look at those links I posted.

 

The final decision (where the kid is) isn't impacted by everything you've done. It just determines what happens to Shepard and the Reapers. Go read the 1000 variables article I linked.

And I specifically said that being an active participant in a story, rather than a passive observer "makes 'bad endings' much harder to pull off in games"  I know I said it, the post is on this very page.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Wrong. The virtual aliens are in no way the same as this. Their minds were uploaded into a virtual reality. It was voluntary. And from what was demonstrated on the Citadel it was not painful either.
 
The reapers did what is in this video to people. It isn't transhumanism. It isn't transcending mortality. Stop making that comparison.

 
No, actually, that's the fun part. I was not making any such comparison at all.
 
You were saying, sardonically, that we should preserve our essential information before getting killed in some disaster.
 
I am showing that that is actually a valid solution.
 
 

So because it happened once, it's preordained to happen every time?   :lol

 

Nope, but that was not my main point anyway.

 

I was responding to someone who was saying that there is no way anything like what the Catalyst was saying could happen.

 

This is why we do not jump into the middle of conversations, Ikarus. 

 

And heck, the Reapers couldn't even wipe out their own creators!  Even after a billion years

 
Out-
-lier.

lol out liar. Actually that is a pretty fitting way to say it: the statistic is a liar, so you cast it out.

[Iakus]

 

 
Out-
-lier.

lol out liar. Actually that is a pretty fitting way to say it: the statistic is a liar, so you cast it out.

Hey, it's your example. Now it's just an outlier?