467 réponses à ce sujet

[Uncle Jo]

The Reapers are just another group in a realm of life (synthetics/AI) that we have been given the opportunity to make peace with rather than simply enslave or kill off. If EDI and geth are said to be people having "souls" in their own rights, and the option exists to forgive-and-forget their transgressions, why treat the Reapers differently?

Good question. Beyond good or evil, I'd say because their very existence and their unmatched power completely unbalance the universe they'd live in? Because nothing can oppose them if they decide to go on rampage / rule the galaxy / whatever? Knowing them hanging around would make more than one sleepless, don't you think?

[GalacticWolf5]

Reapers were never the good guys.

 

There is more than black and white to the world.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Good question. Beyond good or evil, I'd say because their very existence and their unmatched power completely unbalance the universe they'd live in? Because nothing can oppose them if they decide to go on rampage / rule the galaxy / whatever? Knowing them hanging around would make more than one sleepless, don't you think?

 

So, the possibility of them overtaking the galaxy, coupled with low public opinion means that peace should not be an option at all?

 

If so, you are a massive hypocrite if you cured the genophage, freed the rachni, and/or allied with the geth.

[Daemul]

Jesus, are people are still moaning about the breath scene? Lord have mercy...

Are you suggesting the Reapers had it right this whole time?

The Reapers did actually have it right in a, probably unintended, way. There was one good side effect to the cycles, a side affect which the Catalyst didn't fully talk about, and it should actually have been made the main motivation of the Reapers since it made the most sense out of everything, and I actually thought the dialogue with the Catalyst was heading that way before he brought up the Organic v Synthetic motivation.

I'll give an enternal supply of "likes" to anyone else who also figured out what it was. I'll give the rest of you a clue.

"We harvest advanced civilizations, leaving the younger ones alone."

[GalacticWolf5]

Are you suggesting the Reapers had it right this whole time?

That's not what I said. I'm saying that the Reapers arent doing this because they're evil and they want to be evil for the sake of it. They're just tools used by the Catalyst to do what it was programmed to do. The Catalyst is not evil either. It's just following it's programming. I'm not saying that what it's doing is right.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Some people didn't want a new ending. Others wanted an explanation or some just would prefer some closure. Certain people did want a completely new ending, but not everyone. You should read their twitter feed like I did. I found all sorts of varying responses from hate it, love it, or expand it and keep everything like it is.

 

Some people didn't like it, but they never got on their hands and knees and pleaded with Bioware to push out a DLC to fix things. Or demanded an ending change or removal. Very few people pleaded with them. Those who continued to plead despite given a clear answer from Bioware were actually blocked from further conversation with them. 

 

They accepted the ending for what it was, good or bad. Like a book or movie. I watched a movie, didn't like the ending, oh well. I'm not going to demand that the reshoot the ending and release a special version because it doesn't align with what I think should have happened. 

 

Either way, throwing money at a company and begging for a new ending sounds pretty desperate to me. 

 

Yes it was. We were desperate. I'll admit it. We even sent them cupcakes which they refused. They were made by a real bakery, too.

[Uncle Jo]

So, the possibility of them overtaking the galaxy, coupled with low public opinion means that peace should not be an option at all?

 

If so, you are a massive hypocrite if you cured the genophage, freed the rachni, and/or allied with the geth.

 

I personally don't think that you can compare the Rachni, the Krogan or even the Geth with the Reapers in terms of destructive power. The latters simply play in another league. They steamrolled the whole galaxy within months without even really trying. 

 

You can sign all the treaties you want, no nation/race/organization would accept such powerful beings as a neighbors. It has nothing to do with public opinions which you can manipulate with ease. Strategically, the very idea of someone being so much overpowered that they could dictate the fate of the galaxy the way they see fit, even if they actually don't want to, would be simply unacceptable. Look at what's happening every day in the world.

[dreamgazer]

Yes it was. We were desperate. I'll admit it. We even sent them cupcakes which they refused. They were made by a real bakery, too.

They donated the cupcakes, not refuse them.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

They donated the cupcakes, not refuse them.

 

Donating them somewhere else is the same thing as saying "We don't want them." .... but so we don't throw them away we'll give them away.

 

It's regifting.

[dreamgazer]

Donating them somewhere else is the same thing as saying "We don't want them." .... but so we don't throw them away we'll give them away.
 
It's regifting.

That's pretty unfair, especially since the angry baked goods went to a worthwhile cause. Keeping them could have been seen as accepting a bribe, after all, and literally refusing delivery for whatever reason would have earned a lot of ire.

Tricky situation, and they obviously can't even avoid criticism by giving them to a children's shelter of all places.

[God]

They show Shepard disintegrating in every other ending.  No amount of "imagination" changes that.

 

But to see Shepard survive?  Nope.  Can't be bothered to expand on that.

 

It doesn't need to be expanded on. It shouldn't be expanded on. You're willfully ignorant to how the developers were framing Shepard in Destroy. They're giving you, the player, the ability to expand on Shepard after Destroy. If he lives, if he dies, that's all the player now. Not BW. 

[GalacticWolf5]

What I got from the Starchild was this:

Shepard: And what happened to your creators?
Starchild: They became the first true Reaper (Harbinger). They did not approve, but it was the only solution. [camera pans over at Harbinger]

Hence, Starchild was created by Harbinger. Harbinger controls the Starchild, who controls the Reapers.

Another example is, Harbinger who controls the Illusive Man, controlled you to shoot Anderson.

Or, Harbinger who controls the Collector General in ME2, controls the individual Collectors on the battlefield.

Well Im sorry, but you got it wrong.

First, the camera doesnt pan over to Harbinger, its just a Sovereign Class Reaper.

The Catalyst wasnt created by Harbinger. That Reaper didnt even exist when the Catalyst was created.

Leviathans created the Catalyst -> The Catalyst later created the first Reaper (Harbinger) by harvesting the Leviathans.

The Catalyst controls all the Reapers. It is the Reaper master consciousness. They are it's tools.

[Coyotebay]

That's not what I said. I'm saying that the Reapers arent doing this because they're evil and they want to be evil for the sake of it. They're just tools used by the Catalyst to do what it was programmed to do. The Catalyst is not evil either. It's just following it's programming. I'm not saying that what it's doing is right.

From all the ineractions with the Reapers and the Bratalyst in this story, it seemed pretty clear to me that they are not simply acting out their programming, but are quite sentient.  If that wasn't the case, then Bratalyst would never have said to Shepard, "it doesn't look like this is working anymore, let's try something else".  And whether or not they perceive themselves as evil, they are in fact, evil.  It doesn't get any more evil than what they have done.

[AlanC9]

So the Reapers are what, victims?

Yes. They are. They've wasted millions upon millions of years keeping the cycles going. This hasn't been good for organics, but it hasn't been of much use to Reapers either.

[wright1978]

And we don't need to know what Shepard does "for the rest of his natural life" (seriously, why does it this argument always get reductio ad absurdum to this point?)  What sure would be nice, what people had been asking pretty much from the start  is, you know, confirmation that Shepard gets found and rescued.

 

Something Bioware could not be bothered to provide in their DLC designed to add "clarity and closure"  

 

Confirmation that Shepard dies?   Sure no problem!  Confirmation that EDI and the geth die!  All you want!  Confirmation of Shepard, your own character, surviving?  Whoah whoah!  Now you're acting all entitled and stuff!

 

Yeah i sure wanted confirmation and clarification of Shep living within the extended Cut epilogue akin to what they did for other endings. What i certainly didn't want was a memorial for dead Shep inserted in complete lazily manner with a even lazier force sensitive squadmate pausing before declaring Shep dead. Then the breath sequence cheaply dumped on the end unintegrated into the new epilogues.

[fraggle]

From all the ineractions with the Reapers and the Bratalyst in this story, it seemed pretty clear to me that they are not simply acting out their programming, but are quite sentient. 

 

"When fire burns, is it at war? Is it in conflict? Or is it simply doing what it was created to do? We are no different."

 

If that wasn't the case, then Bratalyst would never have said to Shepard, "it doesn't look like this is working anymore, let's try something else".

 

I believe it only says that because the Crucible changed it.

[fraggle]

1- I don't think so, the surprise effect is still there if the brat activates the relay, no one is going to oppose any serious resistance to such an invasion. Furthermore he would control the whole relay transmissions. Also after the harvest no one is going to tell what happened there. And it's much preferable to activate the Citadel than losing three years and giving the opportunity to the galaxy races to prepare themselves for the war. As for the brat creating the Reapers but being unable to control the Citadel which was built by the Reapers? Yeah, no. The keepers are doing "physical" maintenace, something he as dematerialized entity can't do.

 

You know, I've hanging around here for a while and I can't remember how much threads were made to explain the plot hole, retcon, problem created by the brat's presence on the Citadel. Trying to explain it is left to speculation.

 

But the signal to activate the Citadel as a relay did not work at that point, so it implies to me the Catalyst can't do jack about that. So how could it interfere? Revealing itself at that point doesn't make any sense if it can't interfere anyway. Reapers still wouldn't be able to come through the relay, but Citadel inhabitants might get wind of it and get suspicious.

Yup, that's their main purpose, but more importantly the Keepers are also the ones responding to the Reaper signal and activating the relay. If the Catalyst could do that, why would it need the Keepers to take care of it? It probably gave them this task a long time ago, but even so, seems to me it is not responsible for the signal.

But yeah, a lot of it is speculation, so... we could stop if you want

 

2- That wasn't the point. The brat tries hard to explain to me that the Reapers are actually the good guys who seek to preserve life (in whatever form) and prevent the organics races to be wiped by evil robots we've created.The Rachni almost disappeared because the Reapers brainwashed them and pushed them to war. You can even seal their destiny by killing the last Queen.  So my question is where is this so called preservation?

 

You're right that this isn't preservation at this point, but they could still be harvested after using them as enslaved species.

Or it simply has to do with rachni becoming a threat, so they use them as indoctrinated agents instead.

It was like that at least during the Sanctuary mission. They let Cerberus do a lot of things, but as soon as they found a way to actually control Reaper forces, they needed to be taken care of.

On a side note, you're using good and evil too much. It's not as black and white, and I think a lot of what the Catalyst says is based on its programming, and a rather neutral, observing approach. It simply states that Synthetics must by definition surpass their creators in order to become even more efficient to their needs. Is it not right about that? Once something is achieved, organics strife for more, for better. I actually think it is quite accurate with this statement.

 

5- I know about that Codex entry, it's only proving my point. The Reapers completely threw the most advanced race of the cycle in trash can by rewriting them genetically and use them as canon fodder. So even by the brats standards this is no preservation.

 

While that might be true, we don't know for sure why it didn't work out, or what really prevented them to store them in Reaper form. Something must have happened that they didn't go through with it.

 

6- On one hand the bratalyst is talking about how cool he and his pals are and how much they do care about life by ascending them in to Reaper form. Then he sends those very ships to war risking the complete disappearance of what he "preserved". How logic is that? How much ships the Reapers did losein this war, how much civilizations just simply ceased to exist? 

 

It never talked about how "cool" it is. Where did you get that?

He sends them to war because it sees it as a perfected way to do so. And it was right so far, wasn't it? Creating the Citadel as a trap worked for countless cycles, only now it's different, and only because the Protheans were able to change one little thing in their chain reaction, or else the current cycle would've fallen prey to the Reapers as well.

You said it yourself, how much ships the Reapers lost in this war. And that's the point. It's just different this time, it never met that kind of resistance before, a whole galaxy united.

 

3- Saren was in Sovereign's palm. Why go to the Geth in the first place? Why push them to war? To self fullfill the brat's prophecy? Same goes for the Metacons. And even then not all the Geth were for a war with the organics. In fact just a small faction of them. So how much credit should I give to the brat's babble? Don't forget he's enouncing absolute, immuable laws on which he based his whole final solution.

7- Right but enough to disprove his logic based on absolute assumptions...

 

According to Legion it was still the geth's own wish to intervene? "made their own decision" sounds to me they wanted this, wanted to serve "the old machine". It is also too late at this point to say it only now fullfilled the prophecy, they fullfilled the prophecy as soon as they rebelled against the quarians.

You say that not all geth wanted the war. But still they fight to "survive" if need be. They would turn on organics again and again if their existence is threatened, as seen when you refuse Legion to let it upload the Reaper code on Rannoch.

I mean, I get it, you don't like the Catalyst and that's fine. But if it witnessed something, say 100000 times, and one or two times it happened differently, do you really think that counts for something? It is not really an assumption, but the fact it saw it happening for the 100000 times slighty outnumbers the other occurences, imo.

[dorktainian]

So the Reapers are what, victims? 

 

What I got from the Starchild was this:

 

Shepard: And what happened to your creators?

Starchild: They became the first true Reaper (Harbinger). They did not approve, but it was the only solution. [camera pans over at Harbinger]

 

Hence, Starchild was created by Harbinger. Harbinger controls the Starchild, who controls the Reapers. 

 

Another example is, Harbinger who controls the Illusive Man, controlled you to shoot Anderson.

 

Or, Harbinger who controls the Collector General in ME2, controls the individual Collectors on the battlefield. 

 

 

Hey, if we give you these cupcakes, will you fix the ending for us? Sounds like you were trying to bribe them. That will definitely turn people off, not get them to help you. 

 

OK take a step away from the reapers and look at another possibility.

 

When starjar is told that Leviathan are ready to help fight them he says something along the lines of 'I welcome their involvement'.

Of course he does.  He is doing their bidding. He is their program.  He is their Creation.  They trust him.

 

The thing is this was not in the original ending.  However including leviathan in the argument certainly makes more sense of the end product.

If starjar is all reapers - as he says - then the reapers are stripped of their awe.  Starjar controlling the reapers only makes sense if he was put there as a failsafe to protect their creators from the reapers themselves...  He has no other purpose.  He makes reapers by killing advanced civillisations every 50,000 years to protect Leviathan from species advancing enough to be able to challenge them.

 

Is he 'harbinger'?  I don't think so.  I think he arrived at the citadel during mass effect 1.

[fraggle]

He makes reapers by killing advanced civillisations every 50,000 years to protect Leviathan from species advancing enough to be able to challenge them.

 

What?