23 réponses à ce sujet

[Megakoresh]

Oh you thought it was gonna be about Witcher 3? Ahahaha? Yeah? Yeah? LOOL! Gotcha!

 

No. I think Inquisition has an example worth mentioning itself. Several in fact.

 

But the best one is Crestwood rift. I have been wanting to mention this before, but never got around to it. Let's just put any writing biases aside and focus only on the content of the quest - examine what sets it apart from the shitty filler that the rest of the game is laiden with:

 

I will go over the quest in chronological order(note: I do avoid spoilers, the collapse tags are just to keep it tidy):

 

Beginning

Spoiler

You arrive in the location. Some kind of cataclysm is immediately evident from the visual representation. Harding fills you in on the details, and immediately presents a problem visually as well as through voice acting - the rift is a hundred meters below water. You KNOW this won't be a boring "Get there, fight, close, get points", this must be multi-stage. You see a challenge immediately - this drives interest. Companions also comment on that. Harding gives you a hint at what might be the first step to take (possible improvement to quest: multiple completion lines, e.g. not involving the mayor). You don't know anything more than it's a problem to solve, it involves multiple tasks, and it affects entire region. You are compelled to investigate. At this point you will actually care about text logs on the topic that you pick up.

Mid-quest

Spoiler

You go to the location where the mayor resides. A gameplay representation of the cataclysm is presented in the form of the undead attacking the village. After the fight the guard further emphasises the issue by commenting on the fight. Inside NPC chatter emphasises the issue with related lines. You find a character hiding in their home, saying they will only come out when it's safe - presumably when you complete the quest. You discover the NPCs reacting to the cataclysm, that presumably can be averted. This creates a promise of reaction to your completion of the quest. This drives interest, and creates a personal motivation for solving the quest - not just doing it "For points".

Mid-quest 2

Spoiler

You talk to mayor. You have accumulated enough interest by now to ask him about the background of the cataclysm. You learn of the next stage of the quest - to take over a fort. You need these hubs, so it's good that this is included. The standard RPG player's thirst for maximum efficiency is satisfied by following the questline. You take over a fort and proceed to the dam room. You find a young couple making out in there - this creates a funny intermission. You companions react to that - it gives the quest more presence within the world. You open the dam - finding a loophole. Something doesn't seem right, but you don't know what - you are compelled to investigate. This drives interest.

End-quest

Spoiler

You open up a new playable area. In it you can meet a new interesting entity - your companions show interesting reactions to it - this gives the encounter more presence in the world. You wouldn't have met this entity if you haven't followed the quest - you start to receive the story rewards for your actions. As you continue down the mines, you encounter interesting locations and visual hints on what happened there. Companions comment - this gives more presence to the location, and contributes towards the rewards from following the questline. When you finally close the rift, your companions can react positively - this further contributes towards rewards from following the questline. As you complete the quest and exit - the entire location climate changes, reacting to your actions. This visually contributes to the rewards of following the questline. When you return to the mayor you find out the rest of the puzzle - your investigation is fruitful, thus fulfilling, making it feel like you did something meaningful.

Post-quest

Spoiler

You activate the operation gained from completing of the quest, and gain extra content and character interaction from completing the quest. This further contributes towards satisfaction from completing the quest and gives extra interaction with a side character.

 

Possible improvements:

Spoiler

• Non-linearity. In Dragon Age Origins pretty much all quests were very non-linear and you could perform vastly different activities and actions for varied results. Even the best sidequests in Inquisition don't have that much non-linearity and when they do, it's condensed towards a single dialogue choice.
• Far-reaching consequences. In Origins, I could unexpectedly hear from what I did in the beginning of the game. It is awesome. In DAI when a quest is done - it's done. Another mark on a checklist - it will never be relevant again.

Other examples of good quests are:

Spoiler

• The Blades of Hessarin (or something like that, dont remember the name) - changes the NPCs you encounter in the entire location, and gives good different rewards, based on how you deal with the situation.
• Fallow Mire - a nice level progression and location-specific mechanics + introduction of Avvar, a great reward and a really funny follow-up.
• Emprise Du Lion - main plot involvement, and local quests in one package, making for a productive run + a new investigation, a side character with some history, an interesting boss battle, interesting keep overtake level, good follow up, and great visual representation. Too bad there is too much grindy battles in between and the stupid villagers repeat the same lines over and over and over again to point when you start hearing them in your sleep.

So basically here is a TLDR:

• Keep quests multi-staged and have meaningful choices at each stage.
• Introduce some intrigue to pick player interest, only expose minimal information at first
• Use ALL types of representation - visual, audio, gameplay, and logs. In that order.
• Keep pacing by interchanging combat with visual hints and character chatter
• Involve things players care about. In Bioware games it's companions. Make them react
• Make sure that following quest lines is simultaneously the most efficient way to play - put ample resources, loot and XP in the way and give a nice unique item at the end.
• Unfold the background gradually towards the end. Not all at once.
• Make the world react to your actions explicitly and clearly - i.e. NOT "Please read my wall of text thank you message at the war table kthnxbye".
• Follow up with extra content - like judgement, extra dialogue with a companion or a mission unlock.
• Echo the quest later in the game.

Anyone disagrees/has something to add? On the chance that BioWare actually reads this forum and considers this kind of feedback (they sure do keep to themselves about anything they do), I hope it can help avoid further shitty quests in future DLCs, expansions and games. At any rate it has to be better than pointing at videos of an unreleased game and saying "LOOK THIS IS BETTER".

[Wurm_king]

yeah its a shame that this did not happen in game, and I don't think that the devs are listening. while I can appreciate what you are trying to do, I think pointing at a competing game and showing how they did everything better, even if it is not released yet, speaks volumes more then writing it out like this. they wont pay attention to this because it does not effect their bottom line, the fact that the witcher dev team out developed them does. and while I will wait until the game comes out for the final verdict I will say these 3 things on why I think when all is said and done the smaller dev team will have been proven to have out done bioware:

 

first they developed only for the next gen systems, no multiplayer forced in, and when the game was not up to snuff they did not force it out the door so they could shift more units over the holidays, they held the game back and fixed what was wrong with it.

[berelinde]

I think they *tried* to do one extensive side quest per zone, but sometimes, it fell flat. Crestwood has the flooded rift quest. The Western Approach has Frederic's Draconology and related nonsense (which gets kinda fetch-questish, but it opens up the Silent Ruins and has a rare enemy). The Exalted Plains has you stabilize the region. The Hissing Wastes has Sand and Ruin. The Emprise du Lion has the whole business with the quarry. The Emerald Graves has the Fairbanks quest line. Etc.

 

The main issue that I see is that it was one big side-quest per zone, and ten big side quests in a big game like Inquisition felt a little thin.

[devSin]

I think another problem is that none of the areas really existed for the quests. You could do them (and some were more successful than others), but it had very little substantive effect on the area or the story (and because they're exploration zones, you'd still be stuck there grinding away as long as you had other minor quests to complete). So far, I think Emprise du Lion was the most successful, with the big push to free the captive villagers and defeat Imshael (it was a comparatively focussed area, which I think helps a lot).

I personally wasn't as impressed with Crestwood. It felt far too much like New Londo Ruins to me.

[Inex]

I always do those quests in Crestwood. It is indeed one of the more interesting quests in the game. Wish more were like it.

[In Exile]

I think they *tried* to do one extensive side quest per zone, but sometimes, it fell flat. Crestwood has the flooded rift quest. The Western Approach has Frederic's Draconology and related nonsense (which gets kinda fetch-questish, but it opens up the Silent Ruins and has a rare enemy). The Exalted Plains has you stabilize the region. The Hissing Wastes has Sand and Ruin. The Emprise du Lion has the whole business with the quarry. The Emerald Graves has the Fairbanks quest line. Etc.

 

The main issue that I see is that it was one big side-quest per zone, and ten big side quests in a big game like Inquisition felt a little thin.

 

The Hinterlands actually has helping the Crossroads, but people miss it because of how it's set up. Quest-wise it's supposed to go (1) Save Mother Giselle; (2) Speak to Capitan Vale (I think that's his name?); (2) Go to each individual quest giver in the area, who sends gives you a quest relevant to each region of the Hinterlands map; (3) go randomly exploring; (4) solve all the quests; (5) go to redcliffe, collect the healer once you get in; and (6) pick your reward for the quest - influence, agent, money, etc. 

 

The problem is that you can skip the Corporal entirely. And the individual quests suck donkey balls. 

 

It's a decent concept that fails totally in execution. 

[Innsmouth Dweller]

OP:

without improvements, the only good thing about this quest line is the idea.

 

quest is linear and you don't get to see the results of your actions in-game, that makes it a pointless cinematic experience. "interchanging combat with narrative" only pushes linearity index higher.

 

i don't mind action adventure games tho. unless they are sold to me as RPGs.

[Rawgrim]

I always do those quests in Crestwood. It is indeed one of the more interesting quests in the game. Wish more were like it.

 

I agree. Crestwood was the best area in the game when it came to side quests.

[Inex]

OP:

without improvements, the only good thing about this quest line is the idea.

 

quest is linear and you don't get to see the results of your actions in-game, that makes it a pointless cinematic experience. "interchanging combat with narrative" only pushes linearity index higher.

 

i don't mind action adventure games tho. unless they are sold to me as RPGs.

 

Disagree. So what if the quest is linear? The main story is the best part of the game imo, and it is linear, 'interchanging combat with narrative'.

 

And you do see results in-game during this quest. New areas become accessible, the map changes quite a bit and a new operation leading to a judgement. How many quests in DA:I do that? Only a few and this Crestwood quest is one of those. Granted the quest could still use improvements.

[MyKingdomCold]

In the Hinterlands you do get to see the results sort of at least. For example, at Redcliffe Farms you see the farmers return after dealing with the wolves.

[Sartoz]

I get what you're saying and it's probably why I LOVE the Hissing Wastes. Not only do you encounter a situation that's connected to the main plot, you also have a mini quest that's right out of Indiana Jones, along with a few extra ones and lots of party banter. I also love the Darkspawn quest in the Approach because of the banter and the events leading up to connecting to the main quest.

 

                                                                               <<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>

 

What team chars were you using? I experienced little banter in the watstes... perhaps I used the same team too much and the banter got spread out.

[Megakoresh]

 

I think they *tried* to do one extensive side quest per zone, but sometimes, it fell flat. Crestwood has the flooded rift quest. The Western Approach has Frederic's Draconology and related nonsense (which gets kinda fetch-questish, but it opens up the Silent Ruins and has a rare enemy). The Exalted Plains has you stabilize the region. The Hissing Wastes has Sand and Ruin. The Emprise du Lion has the whole business with the quarry. The Emerald Graves has the Fairbanks quest line. Etc.

 

The main issue that I see is that it was one big side-quest per zone, and ten big side quests in a big game like Inquisition felt a little thin.

I think another problem is that none of the areas really existed for the quests. You could do them (and some were more successful than others), but it had very little substantive effect on the area or the story (and because they're exploration zones, you'd still be stuck there grinding away as long as you had other minor quests to complete). So far, I think Emprise du Lion was the most successful, with the big push to free the captive villagers and defeat Imshael (it was a comparatively focussed area, which I think helps a lot).

I personally wasn't as impressed with Crestwood. It felt far too much like New Londo Ruins to me.

Those 2 point out something quite important I think: not only is it not enough to just have one completely linear side quest per area, but that one main quest is just one among dozen others. And it also involves the same tasks as any other standard activity in the game. 

 

This relates to what I mentioned about presence within the world. The quests in DAI mostly feel like checkpoints in a racing game, instead of events within the world of Dragon Age. This is partly because they share the same space with everything else, thereby making them inconsequential in gameplay, partly because of their linearity, making them inconsequential among other secondary events and lastly a complete lack of echoes, which were the defining aspect of the previous Dragon Age games finalizes them as sources of XP.

yeah its a shame that this did not happen in game, and I don't think that the devs are listening. while I can appreciate what you are trying to do, I think pointing at a competing game and showing how they did everything better, even if it is not released yet, speaks volumes more then writing it out like this. they wont pay attention to this because it does not effect their bottom line, the fact that the witcher dev team out developed them does. and while I will wait until the game comes out for the final verdict I will say these 3 things on why I think when all is said and done the smaller dev team will have been proven to have out done bioware:

 

first they developed only for the next gen systems, no multiplayer forced in, and when the game was not up to snuff they did not force it out the door so they could shift more units over the holidays, they held the game back and fixed what was wrong with it.

I think at this point, CDProject Red is FAR from "small". They have almost 300 people and are hiring a lot more currently.

[Innsmouth Dweller]

Disagree. So what if the quest is linear? The main story is the best part of the game imo, and it is linear, 'interchanging combat with narrative'.

 

And you do see results in-game during this quest. New areas become accessible, the map changes quite a bit and a new operation leading to a judgement. How many quests in DA:I do that? Only a few and this Crestwood quest is one of those. Granted the quest could still use improvements.

you don't get to disagree with subjective opinion and argument with another subjective opinion.

 

1. new areas being accessible? that's mechanics, not narrative. not role-playing thingy

2. map changes depending on a binary choice - do or don't do a quest

3. judgement is always there, unless you ignore the quest (see 2). it's still linear

 

i'm not arguing the writing. it's nice. for a f...n movie or book.

[Inex]

you don't get to disagree with subjective opinion and argument with another subjective opinion.

 

Why not? We have different opinions, mine being that i'm not bothered by the linearity in this quest. The real problem starts when someone tries to say your subjective opinion is wrong, which i didn't.

 

1. new areas being accessible? that's mechanics, not narrative. not role-playing thingy

2. map changes depending on a binary choice - do or don't do a quest

3. judgement is always there, unless you ignore the quest (see 2). it's still linear

 

i'm not arguing the writing. it's nice. for a f...n movie or book.

 

There are role-playing possibilities in the new area and in the judgement. I believe i understand what you were trying to say with improvements in you first post. If the map changed based on decisions you made within the quest instead of changing based on doing or not doing it then it would indeed fit better in a rpg and be less linear. But still, this side quest is better than most of the other quests in DA:I.

 

What kind of quests in DA:I do you think are good? I'm just curious. If you remove the linear quests with consequences based on doing or not doing them, then sadly there isn't much left in the game.

[Lumix19]

The Hinterlands actually has helping the Crossroads, but people miss it because of how it's set up. Quest-wise it's supposed to go (1) Save Mother Giselle; (2) Speak to Capitan Vale (I think that's his name?); (2) Go to each individual quest giver in the area, who sends gives you a quest relevant to each region of the Hinterlands map; (3) go randomly exploring; (4) solve all the quests; (5) go to redcliffe, collect the healer once you get in; and (6) pick your reward for the quest - influence, agent, money, etc. 
 
The problem is that you can skip the Corporal entirely. And the individual quests suck donkey balls. 
 
It's a decent concept that fails totally in execution.

So true. I completely forgot about Vale after doing the missions so I didn't get the reward until my third playthrough (when I finally remembered). And I kept talking to Mother Giselle and wondering why she was saying that the people of the Hinterlands were starving.

[Wurm_king]

megakoresh, while you are right, compared to the infinite resources of EA and the resources of Bioware by extension, this was a very pathetic display. if they had done things like you suggested it would have improved the game immensely. the fact that with all the resources at there disposal from money and talent to blue prints already laid out from the past two games on what to do and what not to do, the fact that this is what we got also speaks volumes I think on the direction this franchise is going, the quality of future DA titles, and the state of EA owned properties in general.

 

but this is a conversation for another thread and I will try my best not to derail this thread any further.

[thats1evildude]

The Hinterlands actually has helping the Crossroads, but people miss it because of how it's set up. Quest-wise it's supposed to go (1) Save Mother Giselle; (2) Speak to Capitan Vale (I think that's his name?); (2) Go to each individual quest giver in the area, who sends gives you a quest relevant to each region of the Hinterlands map; (3) go randomly exploring; (4) solve all the quests; (5) go to redcliffe, collect the healer once you get in; and (6) pick your reward for the quest - influence, agent, money, etc.

The problem is that you can skip the Corporal entirely. And the individual quests suck donkey balls.

It's a decent concept that fails totally in execution.

I think the big quest line in the Hinterlandsis dealing with the lyrium smugglers. First you slay the mercenaries harassing people in the east, then you're directed to the fortress far in the west where you slay the mercenary leader. The story wraps up when you go on to Valammar and break the Carta. The plot concludes with "Well ... ****."

[Megakoresh]

megakoresh, while you are right, compared to the infinite resources of EA and the resources of Bioware by extension, this was a very pathetic display. if they had done things like you suggested it would have improved the game immensely. the fact that with all the resources at there disposal from money and talent to blue prints already laid out from the past two games on what to do and what not to do, the fact that this is what we got also speaks volumes I think on the direction this franchise is going, the quality of future DA titles, and the state of EA owned properties in general.

 

but this is a conversation for another thread and I will try my best not to derail this thread any further.

It's not derailment, I think it's worth mentioning that for DAI they:

1. Swapped out the engine. You probably haven't thought about this, but just consider - they used the same engine code base for a decade(successive engines were derived from the previous)! And then it suddenly changes to a completely new next gen engine. Next gen doesn't mean easy to use, trust me, I am trying to build a game in Unreal right now, that being one of the more user-friendly engines, and it's a nightmare.
2. Ran on a limited time - this coincides with the previous point. EA resources may be huge, but they will also push for a timely release. What was incredibly stupid of both EA and BioWare to do, is to swap out the engine on this absolutely massive game. What they should have done is familiarize themselves with the engine on a smaller title. Maybe something combat-focused. They could have also used it to refine the gameplay of DAI, which was rather disappointing.
3. Tried to copy Skyrim. Not "inspired by", but a blatant and rather poor marketing-driven copy of Skyrim's features. Never a good idea, that one. They got the open world, a ton of hours worth of content, gathering, exploration, ton of reading and a ton of abilities vastly overfilling the hotbar... and they haven't got any of it right.
4. Packed in "dedicated features" designed to "handle" certain aspects of player feedback. For example they put in those table operations, which are nothing more than glorified Mass Effect 2 type post-quest emails designed to handle the whole echo problem. Thing is - this glorification of such a trivial feature, while not doing anything more from a player's perspective, takes a lot more from developer. So I think they made it and thought "Ok, this has to be enough to convey the impact of the quest on the world/story". In previous games they would have "echos", where some decision in main campaign or another side quest would suddenly be affected or open up due to a quest you did a while back. This was not a specialized system, but rather a natural and satisfying defining feature of the franchise, which is why it was so successful and why the operations don't do jackshit in that respect. DAI has only ONE such echo - the Red Lyrium rune/Calpernia investigation. One. For this enormous game. That is quite pathetic.

I guess the reason why I am saying this is even the largest resources can be drained on wrong things pretty fast.

I think the big quest line in the Hinterlandsis dealing with the lyrium smugglers. First you slay the mercenaries harassing people in the east, then you're directed to the fortress far in the west where you slay the mercenary leader. The story wraps up when you go on to Valammar and break the Carta. The plot concludes with "Well ... ****."

Yeah that was pretty lame, I didn't even figure out what was the whole connection with the carta and the mercenaries in the old villa. But worst of all - I never cared about it. Never gotten interested. Too much stupid running around between fetch points/monster boxes/TLDR logs I suppose.

[jds1bio]

Crestwood is a good example of an interesting sidequest with a definite visible tangible outcome, beyond a special item or souvenir.

 

So are The Vercheil March and The Last Resort of Good Men - I highlight these not because they are inner circle quests, but that they are relatively short but have so much variety in their sequencing and outcome.

 

I agree with an above poster about the hinterlands refugees - you could definitely see the effects on the landscape and in the people as you complete each quest, and that whole segment of quests should have had a top level quest to attach to.

[jds1bio]

1. new areas being accessible? that's mechanics, not narrative. not role-playing thingy

2. map changes depending on a binary choice - do or don't do a quest

3. judgement is always there, unless you ignore the quest (see 2). it's still linear

 

 

 

1. Then after spending 15 hours in the Hinterlands, I should have been able to open the Western Approach, but I can't, because it would break the narrative.

2. It's more than a do or don't do a quest.  The map changes

Spoiler

twice

depending on how far you go into it.  Also, you make binary choices in Dragon age all the time, why is it not ok for this quest to have that?

3. Ok so it's still linear.  So is this whole game.  So is every game that has a beginning and end.  Why is that not ok?

[Wurm_king]

and you are right megakoresh, but I am taking that into consideration. when you have all the resources of EA and the blueprints from the past two games this game should not have turned out like it did. the fact that they switched out the engine means they should have gotten more time to make this game. and its not just the last two games they should have considered. just look at the sequel to KOTOR that was made by obsidian for example. lucas arts gave them 1 year to make the game from start to finish so that the game could be out by Christmas of that year. what was released was a good game that could have been excellent filled with bugs and had all the best content cut and left several characters and classes unusable because of glitches or loot that could not be obtained.

 

the decision making from day one on this title was questionable at best and at worst some of the stupidest mismanagement I have seen in an EA title since what was done to both versions of Command and Conquer, and if this was there first game I would let it slide, but its not and they should have known better as a company. and unless I am mistaken this is a new engine for witcher as well but they have made all the right decisions. they did not develop for last gen consoles, they delayed the game when it was not up to snuff, they appear to have added in new features while still keeping true to past titles, no multiplayer since this is an RPG and from all appearances the decisions from your previous games will make an impact on this one. but again I will wait one more week before making any final decisions.

[Dubya75]

OR

 

Go play another game because if Bioware STILL can't figure out how to include quality content in their games, guess what....they never will!

[Megakoresh]

OR

 

Go play another game because if Bioware STILL can't figure out how to include quality content in their games, guess what....they never will!

This is something I have to disagree with to be frank, at least for now - they DO have quality content in the game. The main plot is as good as Origins in my "objective" opinion. In my subjective opinion it isn't because I subjectively don't like the cast of characters - I think they are mostly rather unlikable and I also really despised how politicised they were, putting huge restrictions on romance options and making me cringe at the out of place "checkbox" character traits (e.g. a straight human male can romance only 2 characters, and only one of them is a companion, and none of them include a deeper exploration of the character, which is kinda the main point of a romance).

 

But subjective stuff aside - the quality of the main content is certainly up to par - good branching decisions, I like how order in which you complete main missions has various remarks about it, good connection to previous games (albeit, not the side quests, that was sadly quite pathetic - both Leliana and Dagna will be there regardless of previous decisions, and Hawke's intervention with Corypheus doesn't have enough of an impact). The main stuff - decisions, voice acting, mission locations, and the main characters are good quality. So they still know how to make it. They just don't care enough to use that knowledge anymore. It's the same as with Mass Effect 3. The "We always know better than players"-syndrome.

 

However they have been doing pretty good post-launch support, which is an indication that they do listen to feedback and maybe they still care, and haven't been completely corrupted by EA. For me personally I think I am gonna have to decide whether I still have faith in BioWare based on how they do DLC for DAI. Jaws of Hakkon was likely in production or decided before the game launched, which makes it a poor judgement content, however further DLC/expansions should have the so many issues with the main game's secondary content (and the romance options/character explorations as well) at least partly fixed. If isn't then I will agree with you. For DAI however, there were a lot of complications riding on it to make such definitive judgements.