327 réponses à ce sujet

[Riekopo]

That's a great article.

[Torgette]

It's about everything and nothing at all.  It's BSN, just ride the wave.

 

Wisest post i've read all day! 

[frankf43]

DA was never truly a dark fantasy to begin with

 

The only "Dark setting" Origins had was the Blight

DA:2 was pretty dark. You start the game and lose a sibling. Go further through the game and your other sibling can be killed, turned into a GW which is just a slow death or forced to enter the Kirkwall Circle which is just about the worst Circle in the world. Then to top it all off Your mother is killed. Every time it looks like Hawke is about to get his/her head above water something comes along to submerge it again. 

[Sah291]

This article is one of very few honest ones about the failures of this game, which is very nicely summarized in what I have said many many times on these forums:

"Dragon Age feels like that kind of [MMO] world. A world made by developers who didn't have a backbone to stand up for what they had created, and capitulated to bizarre internet pressure to build a happy-dappy paradise where good people are good, bad people are bad, and any 'grey' moral conflict can be sorted with a quick check to which faction you signed up to."[/size]

Hmm. I disagree. I mean, I do see where the author is coming from. The game certainly does have that MMO feel, with lots of running around in bright/colorful environments, collecting flowers, and crafting gear. It's not a dark war story against the dark spawn horde like Origins, or dark political drama like DA2.

I think part of it that although it takes place in a setting with the mage/Templar war and Orlesian politics as a backdrop...it's not really about that. As far as the main story goes, it's more a religious drama with a central theme about exploring what gods/prophets really are. The Inquisitor is literally in the role of a prophet with the power of a demi-God, and your primary antagonist is a guy who wants to become a god. Themes about war or class struggle are secondary at best. Hence no rape. The issue of slavery is touched on, but more in the context of spirits and deities , not people. In that sense, it does have some darker and provocative themes going for it. Except it's a bit short story wise, so it feels like its all over too soon just as it starts getting really interesting.

[Handsome Jack]

"Darktown"? "Lowtown"? A wisecracking Dwarf?

 

DA:2 was about as dark as a Disney kid's fairy tale.

[X Equestris]

DA:2 was pretty dark. You start the game and lose a sibling. Go further through the game and your other sibling can be killed, turned into a GW which is just a slow death or forced to enter the Kirkwall Circle which is just about the worst Circle in the world. Then to top it all off Your mother is killed. Every time it looks like Hawke is about to get his/her head above water something comes along to submerge it again.

DA2 was probably the darkest game in the franchise, but even then it never quite reaches the level that true dark fantasy does.

[Torgette]

DA2 was probably the darkest game in the franchise, but even then it never quite reaches the level that true dark fantasy does.

 

All 3 games are "dark" in writing (what does "grimdark" even mean anymore?), but DA2's tone does it a disservice by making everything whimsical. DAO is actually pretty sanitary for a "dark fantasy" game and at times is also whimsical, but the themes of "the blight"/"traitorous loghain"/"grey wardens" established at the beginning keep it grounded throughout. DAI does a decent job of emulating DAO as well, it only gets lighter once you establish Skyhold and Corypheus becomes too disarmed to feel like that big a threat (which is why the ending should've been another Haven-under-siege scenario on steroids).

[Handsome Jack]

All 3 games are "dark" in writing (what does "grimdark" even mean anymore?), but DA2's tone does it a disservice by making everything whimsical. DAO is actually pretty sanitary for a "dark fantasy" game and at times is also whimsical, but the themes of "the blight"/"traitorous loghain"/"grey wardens" established at the beginning keep it grounded throughout. DAI does a decent job of emulating DAO as well, it only gets lighter once you establish Skyhold and Corypheus becomes too disarmed to feel like that big a threat (which is why the ending should've been another Haven-under-siege scenario on steroids).

 

Grimdark means, you know, grim-dark.

 

"In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only War."

[PhroXenGold]

"Grimdark" means something so "dark" that's it's (usually unintentionally) comical. As Jack notes, the phrase comes from the tagline of the poster boy for this kind of thing: Warhammer 40k

[Torgette]

Grimdark means, you know, grim-dark.

 

"In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only War."

 

Is that like "a dark and stormy night"? 

[Gileadan]

Is that like "a dark and stormy night"? 

Not quite, for it is in the Imperium of Man that our scene lies.

[Zatche]

This article is one of very few honest ones about the failures of this game, which is very nicely summarized in what I have said many many times on these forums:

"Dragon Age feels like that kind of [MMO] world. A world made by developers who didn't have a backbone to stand up for what they had created, and capitulated to bizarre internet pressure to build a happy-dappy paradise where good people are good, bad people are bad, and any 'grey' moral conflict can be sorted with a quick check to which faction you signed up to."

This part of the quote never made sense to me. The game definitely has people who think themselves good yet do bad (Grey Wardens) or morally grey (Crestwood Mayor) things. And moral dilemmas should be written off because they have different factions associated with the different viewpoints of the issue?

[Klebermoreira17]

DAI is so '' dark fantasy, "that during the quest Cassandra when she finds his apprentice, he is infected with red Lyrium. Then she kills to end the suffering of man, but the game does not show it. Just the sound of the sword tearing the flesh, and the CG angle changes.

 

It is so "Dark Fantasy", which to capture a prisoner for interrogation, you have the opportunity to torture him.

 

It is so "Dark Fantasy", which does not appear sex scene itself in CGs novel.

[Das Tentakel]

Fair enough, although I think we should have some sort of common definition of what dark fantasy "is" for the Dragon Age series.

To me, dark fantasy involves grey morals, the occult, a general sense of uneasiness about the events happening in the story, and lastly shock value. Don't get me wrong, I love the idealism of High Fantasy and tales of Griffons heroically charging in to save the day. But Inquisition could use some more situations that make us uneasy and surprise us. Without these less than ideal situations, we don't appreciate those moments when things work out for the better.

I personally like the concept of ‘dark fantasy’ being fantasy that contains a strong ‘sense of horror’, but that horror can be supernatural, cosmic (Lovecraftian) or human (human-authored or inflicted horror).
It has to work at a psychological level; merely having some monsters that you have to kill is not enough. Even when done well, this works best the first time you read the book, watch the movie or play the game, because surprise, uncertainty and unpredictability are often key to instilling that feeling.

DA:O occasionally succeeded in creating a mild sense of horror with me (the Broodmother sequence, for instance, some of the Warden’s visions). That had pretty much dissipated by the end of the game. Still, I never had that with DA:I or DA2. DA2 just felt erratic, unpredictable and silly and over the top where it did try to go for a bit of horror. DA:I…was totally devoid of it, unless you include some of the in-game letters and the static piles of corpses.

Your logic is very much unlike my logic.

But I think you're giving DA way to much credit. It was simply catching on to ASoIaF popularity, but even then it had more in common with DnD than current fantasy trends.

It's actually quite basic: A D&D videogame without the D&D franchise, in a standard setting that wears Tolkienian-Jacksonian-Martinesque clothing, but without the hard work of really developing an intricate setting or co-ordinating stuff with WotC or LucasArts. The trope inversion gave it a bit of a character of its own, but also confirmed that it was just standard stuff with a few twists and some superficial modernization up to early 2000's fantasy standards. Meat & potatoes stuff, but with (relatively) tasty BioWarian gravy.

I'll have to give BioWare credit that they sort of drifted away from that Meat & Potatoes model, though I'm not sure in what direction they are drifting.

DA2 was probably the darkest game in the franchise, but even then it never quite reaches the level that true dark fantasy does.

 
That's probably because DA2 represents only half the story they wanted to tell. Sort of like the darker early parts of DA:O (say, from the Origin story up to and including Lothering). We never reached the part where Hawke was (probably) going to take charge - the part that got subsumed into DA:I.
This does depend on looking merely at the plot though (Hawke lost his brother or sister, then his mother and the Qunari went on a rampage and the Chantry goes boom and...), the execution itself nullified a lot of the potential impact.

[DomeWing333]

DA:O occasionally succeeded in creating a mild sense of horror with me (the Broodmother sequence, for instance, some of the Warden’s visions). That had pretty much dissipated by the end of the game. Still, I never had that with DA:I or DA2. DA2 just felt erratic, unpredictable and silly and over the top where it did try to go for a bit of horror. DA:I…was totally devoid of it, unless you include some of the in-game letters and the static piles of corpses.

I think there were certainly sequences in the main story that attempted to create a sense of horror in the player. They just weren't effectively executed.

 

The "dark future" that we saw in the Mage questline, the time we spent in our own minds in the Templar questline, the Haven invasion, and our excursion into the Nightmare-controlled Fade. These scenarios were rife with horror tropes like torture, mind-control, being trapped, etc. The game just didn't go far enough to make it as impactful as it could have been. You had a post-apocalyptic world ruled by a darkspawn god, a demon rooting around in the darkest corners of your mind, a village being slaughtered by an invading army that seemingly included an archdemon, and a realm that was supposedly ruled by the literal embodiment of nightmares. With more tact, this could have been the most horror-filled game in the series.

[midnight tea]

 

DAI is so '' dark fantasy, "that during the quest Cassandra when she finds his apprentice, he is infected with red Lyrium. Then she kills to end the suffering of man, but the game does not show it. Just the sound of the sword tearing the flesh, and the CG angle changes.

 

So.... it's only dark when they show you the killing blow? It doesn't matter that the whole situation was dark to begin with?

Also - what's with the obsession to show blood and guts and gruesome deaths? Don't we have enough of imagination to understand the gravity of situation or what has transpired if it won't be explicitly shown to us?

 

I think people forget that there's the possibility of "too much tell, rather than show" things in visual language as well (just like there's "show, don't tell" in literature as well). And being too explicit or literal with certain images does fall into that category.

[Das Tentakel]

I think there were certainly sequences in the main story that attempted to create a sense of horror in the player. They just weren't effectively executed.
 
The "dark future" that we saw in the Mage questline, the time we spent in our own minds in the Templar questline, the Haven invasion, and our excursion into the Nightmare-controlled Fade. These scenarios were rife with horror tropes like torture, mind-control, being trapped, etc. The game just didn't go far enough to make it as impactful as it could have been. You had a post-apocalyptic world ruled by a darkspawn god, a demon rooting around in the darkest corners of your mind, a village being slaughtered by an invading army that seemingly included an archdemon, and a realm that was supposedly ruled by the literal embodiment of nightmares. With more tact, this could have been the most horror-filled game in the series.

You're quite right, I was basically explaining what I personally felt, but there were some potentially horrific scenes in DA:I. For some reason, I did notice the letters and piles of corpses (but they had no noticeable emotional impact) but I totally forgot the 'dark future' episode. That's pretty damning evidence it totally didn't work for me, though.

[Gileadan]

You're quite right, I was basically explaining what I personally felt, but there were some potentially horrific scenes in DA:I. For some reason, I did notice the letters and piles of corpses (but they had no noticeable emotional impact) but I totally forgot the 'dark future' episode. That's pretty damning evidence it totally didn't work for me, though.

There are so many missed opportunities like this.

I remember Josephine telling me how the Inquisition's workers died during the attack on Haven - so proud to take up arms, only to be cut down. Sure, I thought "aw, poor bastards" when I heard that, but if I'd seen it in game, it would have likely had a different impact.

[midnight tea]

That's different for me. I don't have to be explicitly shown something to understand the gravity of situation.

[Gileadan]

That's different for me. I don't have to be explicitly shown something to understand the gravity of situation.

I do understand the gravity well enough... or I like to think so.

It's just... in retrospect, I know it was bad already. And actual experiences hit me harder than words. Had I seen our workers die right at the beginning of the siege during gameplay, I would've probably felt worse (and more angry) than hearing about it after it's all over.

[midnight tea]

I do understand the gravity well enough... or I like to think so.

It's just... in retrospect, I know it was bad already. And actual experiences hit me harder than words. Had I seen our workers die right at the beginning of the siege during gameplay, I would've probably felt worse (and more angry) than hearing about it after it's all over.

 

So... soldiers dying left an right and Red Templars pouring to burning Heaven isn't enough? There's only so much that can be shown via cinematic or during actual gameplay (especially that the game is tried to Inquisitor's POV). And nobody in their right mind will be standing and 'admiring' workers being cut down when they have tasks to complete. It would also completely undermine urgency of the task if we *could* just admire destruction.

 

But... if you want it REALLY dramatic... go there and stand and watch people you can save scream and die amidst flames and rubble.

[Gileadan]

So... soldiers dying left an right and Red Templars pouring to burning Heaven isn't enough? There's only so much that can be shown via cinematic or during actual gameplay (especially that the game is tried to Inquisitor's POV). And nobody in their right mind will be standing and 'admiring' workers being cut down when they have tasks to complete. It would also completely undermine urgency of the task if we *could* just admire destruction.
 
But... if you want it REALLY dramatic... go there and stand and watch people you can save scream and die amidst flames and rubble.

Er... what?

I was merely remarking on the difference of impact between directly experiencing something in the present as opposed to being told about it later.

At no point I said anything about wanting to just stand there and watch people die. That's not what my characters do. It was mainly the gameplay that gave me a somewhat less dramatic feeling about the attack on Haven. Until the dragon showed up, I was convinced I was doing pretty well, given how the Venatori only showed up in piddly, easily mopped up squads instead en masse.

[DomeWing333]

So... soldiers dying left an right and Red Templars pouring to burning Heaven isn't enough? There's only so much that can be shown via cinematic or during actual gameplay (especially that the game is tried to Inquisitor's POV). And nobody in their right mind will be standing and 'admiring' workers being cut down when they have tasks to complete. It would also completely undermine urgency of the task if we *could* just admire destruction.

 

But... if you want it REALLY dramatic... go there and stand and watch people you can save scream and die amidst flames and rubble.

The game isn't completely tied to the Inquisitor's POV. You had sequences like the founding of the Inquisition and the march to the Arbor Wilds that weren't from the Inquisitor's viewpoint. These help establish the atmosphere and environment and there should have been more of that in this game.

 

The feeling that we should have gotten out of the attack on Haven was helplessness and loss. The fact that we could save all the people we wanted to undercut that. It would have been more impactful to have seen people like Harrit or Flissa charge heroically at Corypheus only to be burned away in an instant. Or even just see Josephine huddled in the corner, frantically telling us about the people being cut down while the invasion was still going on. 

[midnight tea]

Er... what?

I was merely remarking on the difference of impact between directly experiencing something in the present as opposed to being told about it later.

 

But WHERE would you put it in in Haven sequence which itself is tight already? That's my point.

 

The game isn't completely tied to the Inquisitor's POV. You had sequences like the founding of the Inquisition and the march to the Arbor Wilds that weren't from the Inquisitor's viewpoint. These help establish the atmosphere and environment and there should have been more of that in this game. 

 

And these little moments where POV is not directly tied is last maybe 2% of entire game-play.

 

Add to that the fact that you're talking about ESSENTIAL scenes (funding of Inquisition, march on Arbor Worlds), not a scene that is not really necessary to add to an already chaotic and intense events in Haven after it was attacked.

Josephine simply related to Inquisitor what she saw from her POV, probably when Herald was trying to save other people or cut way to trebuchets. Personally I'm actually pretty glad she did it - we see it affected her and she can't just shake it off and pretend like it didn't happen.

 

Plus, both in the case of founding of Inquisition and march to the Arbor World, we can safely assume that the Inquisitor is still pretty close. Nobody said that Inquisitor didn't directly observed those, especially that 1.) we see them standing there with Cullen, Josie and Leliana 2). nothing in eh scene of the march indicate that he/she couldn't see his/her soldier marching.

[Pondering Drifter]

So... soldiers dying left an right and Red Templars pouring to burning Heaven isn't enough? There's only so much that can be shown via cinematic or during actual gameplay (especially that the game is tried to Inquisitor's POV). And nobody in their right mind will be standing and 'admiring' workers being cut down when they have tasks to complete. It would also completely undermine urgency of the task if we *could* just admire destruction.

 

But... if you want it REALLY dramatic... go there and stand and watch people you can save scream and die amidst flames and rubble.

 

I believe that "In hushed whispers", "Champions of the Just", and "In your Heart shall Burn" where Inquisitions best quests and moments. However, the story loses steam after "Here lies the Abyss" everything afterwords is not on the same level of quality as those earlier quests. While I appreciate "Wicked Hearts and Wicked Eyes" for the "Game", it is still a very typical smiles and daggers affair and nothing extraordinary. The whole bad future bit and Envy Demon were very good highlights of the game but its a shame that we didn't have as many memorable moments like those towards the end. I think that this is another factor that is  contributing to this sense that Inquisition isn't as dark previous titles. In short the devices are there in the story, but the front end the of the plot is more heavily weighted than the later portion.