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[PhroXenGold]

Seriously guys, again, DA:O was not dark. It was pretty much a frikkin' fairy tale: our gallant heroes unite the people of Ferelden and save the world from darkness. Yeah, sure, there were some darker things going on the background, and Thedas ain't a nice place, but any effect of that was horribly outweighed by the optimism of the story.

 

A dark story would have you trying and failing to save people time and time again (whereas, in DA:O, if you try to save someone, the vast majority of the time, you can by taking the right option). A dark story would leave many of your closest companions dead. A dark story would not give you a get out clause to avoid sacrificing yourself. A dark story would not give you "everything turns out OK" opions like making peace between the Elves and Werewolves, or saving Connor by getting the mage's help. Hell, on the subject of mages, a dark story would have siding with the mages in the tower result in releasing a daemonic infestation into the world. A dark story would not have the Blight ending in a single game. You break the siege of Denerim perhaps, drive the darkspawn off temporarily, but the blight will last decades if not centuries (you know, like all the other Blights, the one we see is trivial in comparison). A dark, realistic story would not give you nearly as many choices in your actions. It would force more things upon you as one man cannot shape the world, they can only shape themselves in reaction to the world. The entire idea of a Hero saving Ferelden is hugely optimistic and idealistic and has no place in a "dark" story.

 

That's not to say that the way DA:O does it is bad; on the contrary, optimism and idealism is often a wonderful thing to put in a game - after all, we play games to escape the depressing real world - but it's not dark. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I believe I said it before in the thread and I will say it again.

 

Bioware does not make a dark European fantasy. They never have. They made a fantasy game series with some interesting elements about it that got watered down and shoved in the background leaving it to player's imagination.

 

If you want dark European fantasy, play The Witcher. The setting there follows and emulates Europe far better than Dragon Age. The story, the character, the art and the feel of the game is actually dark and gritty. Even the language, the violent scenes and the sexual scenes in The Witcher is far more adult-like compared to Dragon Age.

 

It's like this. Bioware is a lot like Disney. They make feel good stuff with some implication of some dark stuff somewhere in the background and then they stick an M rating to it but in reality everyone can play their game. CDProjektRed on the other hand, is anything but Disney. 

 

Asking a Disney-esque game developer to make something dark ? Good luck with that. 

[DomeWing333]

Seriously guys, again, DA:O was not dark. It was pretty much a frikkin' fairy tale: our gallant heroes unite the people of Ferelden and save the world from darkness. Yeah, sure, there were some darker things going on the background, and Thedas ain't a nice place, but any effect of that was horribly outweighed by the optimism of the story.

I think "dark" is meant to be a somewhat relative term here. While it's true that DAO, like most other RPG stories, is essentially an optimistic heroes' journey, its presentation of that story is a fair bit darker than DAI's presentation of that story. There's a more gloomy atmosphere, more depictions of body horror, the peasants look more ragged, and everyone just seems more unhappy. There's more time and emphasis given to make me feel what a harsh world Thedas was. I don't get the same feeling from Inquisition, even though it's still the same harsh world and we still see very bad things happening in it. The overarching story of Dragon Age is never going to be as grim and fatalistic as, say, Dark Souls. I don't want it to be. But the presentation of its unpleasant aspects used to be a lot more visceral and impactful.

[Shechinah]

I think "dark" is meant to be a somewhat relative term here. While it's true that DAO, like most other RPG stories, is essentially an optimistic heroes' journey, its presentation of that story is a fair bit darker than DAI's presentation of that story. There's a more gloomy atmosphere, more depictions of body horror, the peasants look more ragged, and everyone just seems more unhappy. There's more time and emphasis given to make me feel what a harsh world Thedas was. I don't get the same feeling from Inquisition, even though it's still the same harsh world and we still see very bad things happening in it. The overarching story of Dragon Age is never going to be as grim and fatalistic as, say, Dark Souls. I don't want it to be. But the presentation of its unpleasant aspects used to be a lot more visceral and impactful.

Gloom would perhaps be a better word? The world has dark aspects but there are light aspects to it. I always saw "hope" as running theme in both the Dragon Age series and the Mass Effect series.

[PhroXenGold]

I think "dark" is meant to be a somewhat relative term here. While it's true that DAO, like most other RPG stories, is essentially an optimistic heroes' journey, its presentation of that story is a fair bit darker than DAI's presentation of that story. There's a more gloomy atmosphere, more depictions of body horror, the peasants look more ragged, and everyone just seems more unhappy. There's more time and emphasis given to make me feel what a harsh world Thedas was. I don't get the same feeling from Inquisition, even though it's still the same harsh world and we still see very bad things happening in it. The overarching story of Dragon Age is never going to be as grim and fatalistic as, say, Dark Souls. I don't want it to be. But the presentation of its unpleasant aspects used to be a lot more visceral and impactful.

 

Yeah, it's perhaps a little darker than DA:I, but not that much. DA2 is the really dark one. In fact, it's one of the darkest RPGs I've played - the fact that in the end, you can't change things, you can't save people (including your family),  you can't stop Thedas descending into conflict between mages and templars. You're an ordinary man, trying his best, and his best is not good enough. That is real dark storytelling, not seeing some blood and references to rape. And personally, I love it for that darkness.

[AlanC9]

Yeah, it's perhaps a little darker than DA:I, but not that much. DA2 is the really dark one. In fact, it's one of the darkest RPGs I've played - the fact that in the end, you can't change things, you can't save people (including your family),  you can't stop Thedas descending into conflict between mages and templars. You're an ordinary man, trying his best, and his best is not good enough. That is real dark storytelling, not seeing some blood and references to rape. And personally, I love it for that darkness.

Nevertheless, do you think this maybe has something to do with DA2 being Bio's least popular game in years?

[PhroXenGold]

Nevertheless, do you think this maybe has something to do with DA2 being Bio's least popular game in years?

 

Not certain, though I wouldn't be surprised if it has some influence - people do like to have their heroic fantasies. And, as I said earlier, DA:O style storylines aren't in any way a bad thing, escapism can be brilliant. I loved DA2's style not because it was better (although I think the actual story itself was arguably better), but because it was as good, and different form the norm. Having a variety of styles of story is good. Of course, DA2 was a flawed game disregarding how you feel about the direction of the story (though, personally, I feel those flaws come from the game being rushed rather than any of the underlying design basis). I'd love to see what would come of BW doing a DA2-esque story while having the time and budget to properly complete the game.

[In Exile]

Nevertheless, do you think this maybe has something to do with DA2 being Bio's least popular game in years?

I think it's the combination of realism - being awesome at murder doesn't somehow mean you can influence political figures - and the small scale - you don't get to cross a continent and have people kowtow to you.

[Uccio]

Nevertheless, do you think this maybe has something to do with DA2 being Bio's least popular game in years?

 

If that would be the case then Bio learned the wrong lesson.

[CronoDragoon]

Not certain, though I wouldn't be surprised if it has some influence - people do like to have their heroic fantasies. And, as I said earlier, DA:O style storylines aren't in any way a bad thing, escapism can be brilliant. I loved DA2's style not because it was better, but because it was as good, and different form the norm. Having a variety of styles of story is good. Of course, DA2 was a flawed game disregarding how you feel about the direction of the story (though, personally, I feel those flaws come from the game being rushed rather than any of the underlying design basis). I'd love to see what would come of BW doing a DA2-esque story while having the time and budget to properly complete the game.

 

I would love to see that as well, and I'm encouraged that they are aware of and considering the idea:

 

One thing we have discussed is whether smaller, more local stories might be a better venue for having choice and consequence play out in deeper ways, since the choices can be more personal, more consequential to the characters involved without necessarily being called out by criers in northern Antiva, and that idea is quite fascinating to me, so....we'll see!

 

 - Laidlaw from the Kotaku Q&A

[Steelcan]

Yes, DA needs to switch gears yet again for a new installment.

Excellent idea

[o Ventus]

Yes, DA needs to switch gears yet again for a new installment.

Excellent idea

None of the games are sequels to the last anyway outside returning characters and locations, so why does it matter if each game is different? DA isn't tied to any specific character or plotline.

[midnight tea]

Yes, DA needs to switch gears yet again for a new installment.

Excellent idea

 

They don't really have other option, really - in DAI we played a figure on its way to the status of legend and superpower. The only way to one-up that is to make a game in which we're playing potential GODS.... though with all the elven and Old gods and Black/Golden City potential invasions theme going on... I wouldn't be THAT surprised if we did 

 

 

Either way, I'm voting Executors.

[Steelcan]

None of the games are sequels to the last anyway outside returning characters and locations, so why does it matter if each game is different? DA isn't tied to any specific character or plotline.

because switching up the style of the game rarely goes well. DA2 got a lot of flak for its small location and changes to combat, and Inquisition tried to straddle middle ground but ended up leasing even less people with its large but empty environment and combat that struggles to find its own pace

[CronoDragoon]

because switching up the style of the game rarely goes well. DA2 got a lot of flak for its small location and changes to combat, and Inquisition tried to straddle middle ground but ended up leasing even less people with its large but empty environment and combat that struggles to find its own pace

 

Inquisition pleased a lot more people than Dragon Age 2 did.

 

Sometimes changing the style of the game can be good, sometimes bad. If you want a recent, relevant example, examine the changes between ME1 and ME2. The latter is probably BioWare's most universally praised game besides BG2 and KOTOR.

[AresKeith]

because switching up the style of the game rarely goes well. DA2 got a lot of flak for its small location and changes to combat, and Inquisition tried to straddle middle ground but ended up leasing even less people with its large but empty environment and combat that struggles to find its own pace

 

DA2 most likely would've been more well received if it had more development time 

[Steelcan]

Inquisition pleased a lot more people than Dragon Age 2 did.
 
Sometimes changing the style of the game can be good, sometimes bad. I'd need to see data to talk about specifics.
 
If you want a recent, relevant example, examine the changes between ME1 and ME2. The latter is probably BioWare's most universally praised game besides BG2 and KOTOR.

Inquisition pleased more certainly, but its still lying in a weird place. Criticism of its environments and bare bones story isn't exactly uncommon.

The jump from ME1-2 was less sharp than say Origins to DA2. Powers, reputation, and weapons were reworked, but the style of the story and game didn't change a lot.

[CronoDragoon]

The jump from ME1-2 was less sharp than say Origins to DA2. Powers, reputation, and weapons were reworked, but the style of the story and game didn't change a lot.

 

Yes, it did. The scale is much smaller than ME1. It eschews the typical BioWare structure of 4 subplots followed by the finale. It's based around loyalty missions and capitalizing on your squad's specialties to finish the Suicide Mission. The aesthetic morphed from ME1's 70's style space opera to a grittier, edgier feel.

 

All of this is to say that simply changing the scale of the story to allow more local, personal choice and consequence is by no means inherently a bad thing.

[AresKeith]

The jump from ME1-2 was less sharp than say Origins to DA2. Powers, reputation, and weapons were reworked, but the style of the story and game didn't change a lot.

 

Well Mass Effect was overall a trilogy centered around one thing. Dragon Age is more about the events that happens within it, so it has more room to change up the style of stories

 

I'd argue ME2 is pretty much a standalone game on it's one

[Steelcan]

Yes, it did. The scale is much smaller than ME1. It eschews the typical BioWare structure of 4 subplots followed by the finale. It's based around loyalty missions and capitalizing on your squad's specialties to finish the Suicide Mission. The aesthetic morphed from ME1's 70's style space opera to a grittier, edgier feel.
 
All of this is to say that simply changing the scale of the story to allow more local, personal choice and consequence is by no means inherently a bad thing.

. Sure, but the game was still a shooter, with the same protagonist, recurring characters, and so on. The tone changed, and the plot structure did, but the games still deal with the same issues and do so largely via the same means. One has an increased focus on companions and the other has a more structured plot, but I don't think they are as different as any of the DA games are from each other

[midnight tea]

Inquisition pleased more certainly, but its still lying in a weird place. Criticism of its environments and bare bones story isn't exactly uncommon.

 

The story is really barebones if you don't pay attention to it. I haven't had any expectations when I began DAI, really, since it was my first Bioware game and I picked it out of curiosity, but I got surprised how many layers it had, if we looked past the superficial level of "heroes fighting the Big Bad".

[o Ventus]

because switching up the style of the game rarely goes well. DA2 got a lot of flak for its small location and changes to combat, and Inquisition tried to straddle middle ground but ended up leasing even less people with its large but empty environment and combat that struggles to find its own pace

 

DA2 received flak for being rushed out the door and because people are implacable a**holes who hate simply because it's not Origins 2.0. The combat isn't even that different from Origins, it's just been sped up and less of a chore to play through. Everything else is intact save for the special kill animations (and I'm glad those are gone as a mechanic), as far as mechanics are concerned.

[Steelcan]

DA2 received flak for being rushed out the door and because people are implacable a**holes who hate simply because it's not Origins 2.0. The combat isn't even that different from Origins, it's just been sped up and less of a chore to play through. Everything else is intact save for the special kill animations (and I'm glad those are gone as a mechanic), as far as mechanics are concerned.

Accounting for the game being rushed out the door doesn't make the game better.  Its still bad, regardless of why.

 

But as I said above, what makes it different from Origins is the tone, scope of the story, and so on.  Specific mechanics like number of spells and weapons are secondary

[CronoDragoon]

DA2 received flak for being rushed out the door and because people are implacable a**holes who hate simply because it's not Origins 2.0. The combat isn't even that different from Origins, it's just been sped up and less of a chore to play through. Everything else is intact save for the special kill animations (and I'm glad those are gone as a mechanic), as far as mechanics are concerned.

 

The mechanics in DA2 are much improved, I'd say. With Cross Class Combos there's more reason to play something other than Dragon Mage. Most of the combat concerns were, I think, based on unimaginative encounter design and lack of enemy variety.

[o Ventus]

unimaginative encounter design and lack of enemy variety.

It's refreshing to see an actual, legitimate issue brought up.