Although I think DA:O is a lot better than DA:I (sure it had its flaws but nowhere near the level of DA:I which was lackluster in every way)
this isn't even a thread saying that
Just that DA:O was darker and grittier (still no dark fantasy though) than DA:I and thats pretty much a fact
You can like the Disney version more
You just sound pissed that people like DA:O more
If you wanna go down that route it goes both ways
But blatantly trying to pander to people like me by retconning Thedas' ethnic makeup is far from the only change that happened in the five years since Origin's release in October 2009. Dragon Age: Origins portrayed a world that was in many ways deeply misogynistic. The female City-Elf storyline opens with the player being kidnapped by a nobleman in order to be gang-raped on her wedding day. There are several references to male-on-female sexual assault in the storyline. Hardly a surprise, given that Game of Thrones (or A Song of Ice and Fire) were big inspirations. While some female aristocrats have a degree of power in Dragon Age (as in, you guessed it, real mediaeval Europe), the vast majority of rulers are males, and society remains generally patriarchal, though not to the extent where a female Warden's progress is significantly impeded upon, presumably because Bioware couldn't be bothered to tell two separate storylines.
In Dragon Age: Inquisition, this entire idea has been completely and absolutely removed. There are now people of all ethnicities in Thedas. As I said, I am not white myself, but this feels out of place. What's more, Bioware, unable to retcon everything about its lore, painstakingly built over the past decade, has decreed that everyone with a skin colour darker than tan (that is to say, Arab/Persian looking, Native American looking, East Asian looking, South Asian looking, Indian looking, and African looking) all have heritage from the one tiny nation in Thedas that is not light-white (Rivain), thus shoehorning all the 'POC' into one little country. It's not just pandering to Bioware's social justice followers on Tumblr and at conventions, it's downright ****** offensive to me, that Bioware thinks black people will call them racist, or not play the game, if they make a world without us in it. Were whites complaining when they couldn't play a Caucasian in Jade Empire, or when they had to play as CJ in GTA: San Andreas? Certainly. And we called them out for being racists when they did.
But blatantly trying to pander to people like me by retconning Thedas' ethnic makeup is far from the only change that happened in the five years since Origin's release in October 2009. Dragon Age: Origins portrayed a world that was in many ways deeply misogynistic. The female City-Elf storyline opens with the player being kidnapped by a nobleman in order to be gang-raped on her wedding day. There are several references to male-on-female sexual assault in the storyline. Hardly a surprise, given that Game of Thrones (or A Song of Ice and Fire) were big inspirations. While some female aristocrats have a degree of power in Dragon Age (as in, you guessed it, real mediaeval Europe), the vast majority of rulers are males, and society remains generally patriarchal, though not to the extent where a female Warden's progress is significantly impeded upon, presumably because Bioware couldn't be bothered to tell two separate storylines.
But blatantly trying to pander to people like me by retconning Thedas' ethnic makeup is far from the only change that happened in the five years since Origin's release in October 2009. Dragon Age: Origins portrayed a world that was in many ways deeply misogynistic. The female City-Elf storyline opens with the player being kidnapped by a nobleman in order to be gang-raped on her wedding day. There are several references to male-on-female sexual assault in the storyline. Hardly a surprise, given that Game of Thrones (or A Song of Ice and Fire) were big inspirations. While some female aristocrats have a degree of power in Dragon Age (as in, you guessed it, real mediaeval Europe), the vast majority of rulers are males, and society remains generally patriarchal, though not to the extent where a female Warden's progress is significantly impeded upon, presumably because Bioware couldn't be bothered to tell two separate storylines.
Running around the beautiful green and pleasant fields of Crestwood, I couldn't help but feel that any sense of actual danger or impending doom that might actually exist in a collapsing world (it is vaguely implied, for example, that Ellie might be raped if captured in TLOU, which adds to the tension when you play as her protector/de-facto father in Joel) is completely and utterly destroyed by the fact that nothing truly bad, except for some comically overdone scenes of destruction, actually seem to happen. Even Mass Effect 3, which contained no threats of sexual assault at all (just to make it clear that I'm not "demanding rape be put into the game", had a sense of dread that Inquisition lacks. It's the end of the world, but I'll stop and pick the flowers on this perfect hillside, before retiring the tavern for a few hours, and then merrily stroll around for a month, collecting shards so I can open the ancient temple in the desert. The end of the world comes along awfully slowly in this game- and impending doom seems far off.
If you want dark European fantasy, play Witcher.
And how much "dread" was in DAO? Other than like 4 or 5 random encounters here and there and the map slowly getting corrupted, how much dread was there building up in DAO? Sure, you hear about Darkspawn tearing Ferelden apart, but you pretty much never see it. Closest we get to it is the DLC where you get Shale, the village that got attacked by Darkspawn and you show up before they've killed everyone. DAO's world wasn't remotely scare or dreadful or dark, no more so than DAI anyway. Hell, DA2 is darker than DAO. Oh, and rape? It's only been brought up 4 times as far as I know. City elf origin, that random npc in Denerim that fled to Ferelden because her brother attacked a chevalier for trying to rape her, Zathrian's daughter who was raped by humans centuries ago, and hinted at once by a Tranquil in the gallows saying she belongs to Alrick... Okay, 5, bharat kinda hints at giving Rica to other Carta members for them to have fun with. Funny that 2 of the 5 examples are origin stories that are missed by every other story.
Well, over 5 years later I still remember Hespith's creepy song or that hurlock cutting the helpless soldier's throat as you approached Denerim. The bloody massacre at Ostagar. Ruck in the Deep Roads, a mumbling wreck succumbing to the taint. Denerim burning and overrun. Sure, this stuff wasn't around every corner, but it was there. It was in the game, we saw it as it happened, we didn't find another corpse with another letter next to it.
All in all, comparing DAO to DAI gives me the feeling that a horde of "glararargh blood guts brains mrraaarh!" humanoid monsters had a better shot at overwhelming Thedas than a mostly absent ancient magister and his easily mopped up agents. I'm not saying either game is flawless, but DAO made me feel like something might be at stake. DAI...not so much, which made it feel less dark to me.
Well, over 5 years later I still remember Hespith's creepy song or that hurlock cutting the helpless soldier's throat as you approached Denerim. The bloody massacre at Ostagar. Ruck in the Deep Roads, a mumbling wreck succumbing to the taint. Denerim burning and overrun. Sure, this stuff wasn't around every corner, but it was there. It was in the game, we saw it as it happened, we didn't find another corpse with another letter next to it.
All in all, comparing DAO to DAI gives me the feeling that a horde of "glararargh blood guts brains mrraaarh!" humanoid monsters had a better shot at overwhelming Thedas than a mostly absent ancient magister and his easily mopped up agents. I'm not saying either game is flawless, but DAO made me feel like something might be at stake. DAI...not so much, which made it feel less dark to me.
Creepy chanting isn't that dark. How is the throat cutting in that Denerim scene any worse than the scenes of Templars slicing young mages down left and right in the final DA2 battle? The massacre as Ostagar that we barely see and are only really told about afterward, the one that is a minute long scene of combat? A ghoul like Ruck isn't amazing, one is in the Legacy DLC and he's pretty damned off his rocker too. A city on fire, we see that in DA2 also... Twice.
By the way, every example you listed had to do specifically with the taint or the blight. Sounds to me that it's less than the series is softening and more that the taint and blight and darkspawn is the main source of all of DAO's supposed darkness and grittiness. But we can't just focus on those aspects for the whole series, so the series was kinda forced to not be able to be blight-dark in every game.
And how much "dread" was in DAO? Other than like 4 or 5 random encounters here and there and the map slowly getting corrupted, how much dread was there building up in DAO? Sure, you hear about Darkspawn tearing Ferelden apart, but you pretty much never see it. Closest we get to it is the DLC where you get Shale, the village that got attacked by Darkspawn and you show up before they've killed everyone. DAO's world wasn't remotely scare or dreadful or dark, no more so than DAI anyway. Hell, DA2 is darker than DAO. Oh, and rape? It's only been brought up 4 times as far as I know. City elf origin, that random npc in Denerim that fled to Ferelden because her brother attacked a chevalier for trying to rape her, Zathrian's daughter who was raped by humans centuries ago, and hinted at once by a Tranquil in the gallows saying she belongs to Alrick... Okay, 5, bharat kinda hints at giving Rica to other Carta members for them to have fun with. Funny that 2 of the 5 examples are origin stories that are missed by every other story. And another 2 out of 5 were to elves, which shows more to do with how elves have no power and has much more to do with racism than sexism.
Having the king's body hung up for all to see surely wasn't grim at all? That's like a great big "In your face!" to a defeated army and reeling Kingdom. You say random encounters here and there as if to trivialize it. I can offer this one for you. You can sell a child's soul for blood magic, have an arl's wife sacrificed almost without necessity and trade the child's soul for sex with a desire demon. As far as I can tell, perhaps the most dark thing I could do so far is let Celine spill precious little rubies over her carpet, and Briala become fodder for Gaspard, maybe also letting Ismail 'leave' but at no real benefit I couldn't have already without just offing him myself (unlike in the other game you actually had incentive for letting the demon possess the child).
You did point out the rape part -- notice how they left that primarily to notes, and a slight conversation with Cole and Cassandra? You'd think with the Winter Ball Palace and the power struggle between elves and humans it would have been mentioned at least once.
I will concede it felt nice actually being able to execute people myself in front of a crowd. But the DAO in combat 'executions' were satisfying. Blood in DAI is plenty with staining my armor but you'd think I could chop someones head off with a massive axe. TO be fair again, however, DA2 I forgot if they left in beheadings in combat or not.
Sure, DA:O isn't grimdark but the article still has really good points about how they toned it down and tried to make a statement with the game or tried to make it a bit more accessible toward a wider audience.
Having the king's body hung up for all to see surely wasn't grim at all? That's like a great big "In your face!" to a defeated army and reeling Kingdom. You say random encounters here and there as if to trivialize it. I can offer this one for you. You can sell a child's soul for blood magic, have an arl's wife sacrificed almost without necessity and trade the child's soul for sex with a desire demon. As far as I can tell, perhaps the most dark thing I could do so far is let Celine spill precious little rubies over her carpet, and Briala become fodder for Gaspard, maybe also letting Ismail 'leave' but at no real benefit I couldn't have already without just offing him myself (unlike in the other game you actually had incentive for letting the demon possess the child).
Well, yeah, you couldn't be nearly as much of a SOB in Inquisition. Which is a shame, because possibly one of the best ME playthroughs I've ever done in terms of emotional resonance was the one were I had Shepard kill Mordin, Wrex, and Legion. Or indeed, taking some of the 'darkest' choices in DAO.
If you want dark European fantasy, play Witcher.
<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>
That too. unfortunately, My current PC GPU is underpowered for W3
However, AMD's roadmap shows 2016 to be favorable for an upgrade for both a CPU (ZEN architecture with a 40% increase in IPS.. if you believe the marketing) and new GPUs using 14nm tech with FinFet and HBM memory.... so to me, it's worth the wait. Plus W3 may be cheaper in 2016 with bugfixes available.... hehe.
This hardware upgrade will handle the Mass Effect 4 game without batting an eye..... but reading the ME4 forums is mandatory before a purchase decision, given DAI's sorry history on patch installation problems and overhyped marketing followed by undelivered features, expected from the marketing promos... IMO
Creepy chanting isn't that dark. How is the throat cutting in that Denerim scene any worse than the scenes of Templars slicing young mages down left and right in the final DA2 battle? The massacre as Ostagar that we barely see and are only really told about afterward, the one that is a minute long scene of combat? A ghoul like Ruck isn't amazing, one is in the Legacy DLC and he's pretty damned off his rocker too. A city on fire, we see that in DA2 also... Twice.
I was comparing DAI to DAO and never mentioned DA2 at all. Yeah, if you're a mage person, you probably find that scene pretty terrible. I dimly remember that most mages turned out to be daemonhosts abominations, but I had stopped caring about DA2's story a while ago at that point. And I didn't play Legacy. But I'm inclined to agree with you, DA2 sure had its dark moments. In fact, so many mages turning out to be abominations and templars being oppressive plate armored fascist is a pretty grim thing.
It's DAI that is lacking in this department, not its predecessors.
By the way, every example you listed had to do specifically with the taint or the blight. Sounds to me that it's less than the series is softening and more that the taint and blight and darkspawn is the main source of all of DAO's supposed darkness and grittiness. But we can't just focus on those aspects for the whole series, so the series was kinda forced to not be able to be blight-dark in every game.
Well, the taint and tainted creatures were the main theme of DAO, so that is not very surprising, no? Taint aside, DAO also had the Deep Roads. Those were huge, and made me feel (tainted creatures or not) that I was in enemy territory, that no matter what direction I'd go, I wouldn't find someone friendly. DAI is the other way around - everything feels like it happens on my home turf, and the dungeons are mostly so tiny that instead of a daring expedition behind enemy lines, exploring them mostly feels like busting down the door and kicking the occupants' rears.
Dark skinned elves and dwarves can't really have the same heritage as dark skinned humans. But I don't think Chasind are black. The Doomsayer looked white to me. I still am not sure why they should look different from Fereldens.
Well, the Qunari are already halfway there. It wouldn't shock me to see Tevinter being filled with Krems and Dorians, with Danarius and his ilk being the exceptions.
I feel like they sanitized DAI a bit too much, and that if the interface for codex entries weren't such a pain (nor the text so hard on the eyes being bright with a dark background) it'd be harder to miss the gritty details tossed in that way. However, I also felt like DA:O had almost too much of the "rape equals gritty, dark material" inclusion. If anything, DA2 felt like a decent compromise, and it and Origins combined had a far more... I can't think of the term that I mean. But they did feel a bit less sanitized and hopeful than their successor has been.
There are, however, some elements in DAI which manage to drive home that, hey, things aren't so great (burning reanimated corpses, what that mayor did to people supposedly infected with the blight sickness, etc.). And I feel like ultimately, since it's a roleplaying series, imagination is the key to getting past the absence here. You kind of have to tell yourself that, hey, maybe the Inquisitor just doesn't notice everything behind the scenes. Maybe his or her crew's doing a good job of diverting attention. Maybe the elven Inquisitor is getting a dumbed-down version of how elven servants are treated because nobody wants to address the "yeah, so, by the way... rape is a thing, here" elephant in the room, lest they get obliterated with that one Rift Power. And maybe nobody wants to address that the Inquisitor's Tevinter mage friend over there is raising the spirits of slain enemies and forcing them to fight as allies til they die with a horrible death gurgle. (Depending on the class and specialization chosen, maybe the Inquisitor themself is doing so, instead.)
But now that I'm thinking of it... Red Lyrium? Pretty damn nasty effects on those exposed to it. Vivienne's lover, though barely touched upon? Seems like there could've been something of a vaguely dark story behind that. What happens when you choose mages instead of templars early on... though I've yet to play through that version, I've exposed myself to screenshots and spoilers that make it pretty clear it's no Disney Princess Adventure. The Fade, Nightmare's appearance, the way your companions are spoken to in that mission, having to choose what happens to Hawke...
There's plenty, the more I stop and think about it, but it doesn't feel as grimdark and terribad while playing through, perhaps because of the tone set by the visuals and the often-rushed nature of the relevant quests (not to mention that it often feels a bit detached rather than personal, as opposed to having to face down and resist demons in DA:O and DA2). So I'd say it's less an issue of material not existing and more an issue of how that material is presented.
You mean aside from how they cut off the tongues of their mages and make them wear blinding gimp masks?
Yeah they are brutal toward their own mages. I have a feeling they have the worst of it. The females would become 'retrained' or brainwashed too if they aren't considered female (IN MIND AND ACTIONS). But in my opinion it just seemed like he had a "Yeah whatever" attitude about it. I don't get how IB can have such a strong personality being trained as a Qunari from birth.
DAI problem is that nothing has consequences. There's not a single moment where you the story gets tense or it looks like you're going to lose or someone important is going to die. Everything is easy sailing in the game.
DA needs more missions like Champions of the Just to be dark fantasy, In Hushed Whispers would work also if it wasn't undone all at the end.
Some more horror sections similar to the Temple of Dirthamen and the Chateau D'Onterre (sp?) or the Orlesian Ball with its politicking (even if it ends on a poor note)
Well, DAO's color scheme was certainly darker. Err... browner.
But I don't feel like DAI is some kind of happy fluffy alternative to DAO/DA2. They're different games telling different stories from different perspectives. It's not a competition.
it became a competition for me when I found how well, tame the atmosphere felt.
DA2 was far and away the darkest of the series IMO. DA:O, for all that the setting and opening were grim, was essentially an incredibly optimistic and positive story. The brave heroes unite the people and drive out the darkness. It wasn't all sunshine and rainbows sure, but in the end it boiled down to a good old fashioned triumph of good over evil and you saving the day. DA2, on the other hand was about trying your hardest and still failing. That's far more dark (and realistic) than dead people and rape.
DA2 was far and away the darkest of the series IMO. DA:O, for all that the setting and opening were grim, was essentially an incredibly optimistic and positive story. The brave heroes unite the people and drive out the darkness. It wasn't all sunshine and rainbows sure, but in the end it boiled down to a good old fashioned triumph of good over evil and you saving the day. DA2, on the other hand was about trying your hardest and still failing. That's far more dark (and realistic) than dead people and rape.
Agreed.
And the whole bloody execution and rape in DA:O has little effect on me. I feel like these things are added just to make players go "oh god this is bad" while really they do not have any significant meaning in the whole story.
Heh, after making that post, I had an odd feeling I'd said the same thing in response to someone linking this exact article about 6 months ago. Looked through my post history and it turns out I did so here (and I said it better that time): http://forum.bioware...2#entry17866046 
http://tay.kotaku.co...fant-1662330835
I just read this article and sadly its very true
Apart from the short story and terrible open world this bugged me the most about DA:IIts just not DA anymore, just another generic high fantasy franchise
Anyone else here agree? I doubt DA4 will be better but I still hope Bioware goes back to DA:O
I happen to agree completely. I loved the first two dragon age games and the worlds they were built in, and was very disappointed by Inquisition's shiny, ethnically diverse, un-misogynistic, virtually racism-less world, absent of homophobia and populated exclusively by the socially enlightened and accepted. It's fine that we strive to achieve this fantastical goal in reality, but when you inject it into a fantasy world that is already heavily flavored by these motifs, you change what was once a very diverse, very colorful fantasy world, into a drab and grey shadow of what it once was, ironically by rudely inserting diversity into it, and throwing color at it. Nevermind the gameplay, animation, and pacing that made Origins a great game, and Dragon Age 2 at least better than Inquisition, was the fact that the world had a dash of reality that made every character a little bit more of a character, every set piece a little bit more real, the women stronger, the bandits more corrupt, the guards and nobility more complicated. I am happy you said something, because I was deafened by the silence in regards to this issue. I am not one to trust in petitions, and consequentially decided to abandon any sequels to Dragon Age, but maybe if people like you, and Cimeas, and maybe even myself, now that I have seen others who agree with me, can shift the next Dragon Age game into something closer to what it once was.
This could just be my own experience with the content but I actually remember more examples of homophobia in this game than the other two.
http://tay.kotaku.co...fant-1662330835
I just read this article and sadly its very true
Apart from the short story and terrible open world this bugged me the most about DA:IIts just not DA anymore, just another generic high fantasy franchise
Anyone else here agree? I doubt DA4 will be better but I still hope Bioware goes back to DA:O
The DA of DA:O is long dead.
There's nobody left in Bioware who gets excited by unique, atmospheric and genuine stuff like that. The people responsible for the new direction wanks off to ultra-generic, contemporary fantasy fashion. To a considerable degree Japanese influenced. (The great irony of it all was that they claimed it was done to give DA2 a "unique" art style). Gratefully, it has been much moderated in DA:I.
And no, Bioware won't go back to the DA of DA:O, because there's no one left in EA/Bioware who understands that stuff.
But DA:O died by DA2. Then was the time to be upset about it and rage and rant. Not now.
Because, for all its faults - which all games have - DA:I is a good and enjoyable game. At least in my opinion. It may not be the game you wanted, but I fail to see that this might be a relevant point. DA:I is not the sequel to DA:O. DA:I follows DA2 in the DA franchise as yet another new direction. So the question should rather be if it's more interesting than nothing, than if it's the DA of DA:O - which it isn't.
If there will be a DA(4) game, I'm sure Bioware have a good idea of which parts need more elaboration. And at least it won't be strangled already in design, by having to run on XB360 and PS3. But DA:O it won't be.
I never saw Origins as Dark Fantasy, just High Fantasy with some rape I also saw Dragon Age ][ as Low Fantasy frankly.
Every DA game was just a story that had dark elements in it because of the way they wanted to tell it
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