Questa discussione ha avuto 44 risposte

[GriffithBlight]

In Mass Effect universe its said that experience is a biological marker, Javik shows clearly that he can reveal a good amount of information about anyone just by touch.

When Shepard meets Leviathan, it only gives some answers after looking in to Shepard's mind - the moment when Shepard has a nosebleed - saying that he must understand why the Reapers perceive him as a treat and that Shepard is an anomaly. Leviathan also said that "the intelligence has one purpose: preservation of life. That purpose has not been fulfilled." and that the harvest will continue while this solution is not found.

If Reapers draws physical data from living beings to provide the necessary data for it's solution - as said Leviathan - each Reaper is an amalgama of all experience's biological markers of an entire species, providing it with an unique way for processing data, yet the solution is still unknow.

This line makes me believe that the Reapers interest in Shepard is linked with the solution, that our hero has some kind of biological marker, engraved in DNA by his/her life and her/his choices, that could provide a solution for the problem, and that's why they studied her/him in Arrival DLC, instead of killing him when they had the chance (and they sure had).

 

I came up with this after thinking about why they just don't kill Shepard in Arrival? Or Ranoch? Or Earth?

[Heimerdinger]

Well, Harbinger's goon squad (the Collectors) did blow up the SR1 with Shepard in it. I think as far as the Reapers are concerned:

 

1. Dead Shepard - problem solved. An annoyance removed.

2. Shepard survives - proof of superior genetic material. Shepard proves to be useful. ("Take what is useful, destroy the rest")

 

Now, by the time of Arrival Harbinger knows option 2 is correct and has even more interest in Shepard. "Turn yourself over and be spared."

 

Knowing what Reapers do with harvested DNA, it's safe to say Shepard is considered a good component for their plans to build a human reaper. Hell, they could be planning to use Shepard as the reaper's main personality (some speculated Javik was supposed to be the key component for the prothean reaper, but the reapers failed to capture him). "You do not yet comprehend your place in things." 

 

Regardless of DNA, Shepard would still be a prime target for indoctrination, same as any important military official. "Struggle if you wish, your mind will be mine."

[SuperJogi]

If Reapers draws physical data from living beings to provide the necessary data for it's solution - as said Leviathan - each Reaper is an amalgama of all experience's biological markers of an entire species, providing it with an unique way for processing data, yet the solution is still unknow.

 

That depends on how exactly the creaton of a reaper works. If all organics are transformed into some homogeneous DNA goo, like seen in ME 2, then all information in the brain would be destroyed.

 

This line makes me believe that the Reapers interest in Shepard is linked with the solution, that our hero has some kind of biological marker, engraved in DNA by his/her life and her/his choices, that could provide a solution for the problem, and that's why they studied her/him in Arrival DLC, instead of killing him when they had the chance (and they sure had).

 

I the new solutions which are aviable at the end of ME 3, are there because the catalyst is now connect to the crucible, which makes his space magic more powerful.

Shepard was the one who finished the construction after countless cycles.

 

I came up with this after thinking about why they just don't kill Shepard in Arrival? Or Ranoch? Or Earth?

 

Because plot armour.

[Vazgen]

That depends on how exactly the creaton of a reaper works. If all organics are transformed into some homogeneous DNA goo, like seen in ME 2, then all information in the brain would be destroyed.

Javik says,

"Experience is a biological marker as is knowledge and skill."

"it's in your cells, your DNA".

He was able to learn the language from just touching Shepard (or rather Shepard touching him). He learned of the backgrounds of people living on the Normandy purely from traces of them found on the ship. If Shepard did Jack's loyalty mission, he'll learn about it from exploring her quarters. 

 

I'd say the information in the brain is not destroyed when making goo. In MEU that is.

[MrFob]

To be honest, as whacky as Mass Effect's physics often are, the ME universe is at it's worst when it tries to dabble in biology. The prothean ability to read memories from DNA is Animus-level stupid. The whole genetic destiny argument means that, instead of Shepard, we might as well have sent a chimp up the citadel beam.

It would really be nice if SciFi writers informed themselves a little more on the current status of fields like molecular biology and neuroscience. They all seem to be stuck in the 1950s (probably the same with physics though).

Even the idea behind biotics - while kinda cool on the surface - is fairly insane. But I'll grant them that gameplay had to trump lore here probably.

 

So yea, when it comes to physics, at least they have that little loop hole with eezo, which they can jump through to make things happen. But with biology, that doesn't really help them much and things get ridiculous very fast.

[SuperJogi]

To be honest, as whacky as Mass Effect's physics often are, the ME universe is at it's worst when it tries to dabble in biology. The prothean ability to read memories from DNA is Animus-level stupid. The whole genetic destiny argument means that, instead of Shepard, we might as well have sent a chimp up the citadel beam.

It would really be nice if SciFi writers informed themselves a little more on the current status of fields like molecular biology and neuroscience. They all seem to be stuck in the 1950s (probably the same with physics though).

Even the idea behind biotics - while kinda cool on the surface - is fairly insane. But I'll grant them that gameplay had to trump lore here probably.

 

So yea, when it comes to physics, at least they have that little loop hole with eezo, which they can jump through to make things happen. But with biology, that doesn't really help them much and things get ridiculous very fast.

 

If their biology is from the 1950s, their physics is from the 18th century.

Reducing rest mass through a dark energy field is about as equally ridiculus as reading memories through DNA.

 

Bioware writer:

"Reducing mass will make you accelerate easier because f=ma!!! It says so in Newtonian Mechanics!!! What do you mean reducing mass would cause particles to decay? Particles are little balls of energy inside an atom! Reducing their mass has no consequence on their behavior! Quantum mechanics? Never heard of it. What do you mean mass is energy? E=mc²? But it says E=½mv² in Newtonian Mechanics!!!"

 

Or my favorite: they even fail at basic electrics:

A positive current increases mass, a negative current decreases it.

 

"Negative current" What the hell is that that supposed to mean in this context? An electrical current is free electrons travelling through matter. It's power is always positve. "Negative" and "positve" are only used to discribe the direction of a current in a cuircut. It's completly arbitrary and makes no difference quantum mechanicly. So is Bioware telling me that I can change the fabric of reality by switching a battery around? TOP KEK

 

The reason why their biology appears worse than their physics is only because the general understanding of 20th century physics and spaceflight is even smaller in mainstream audiences. Heck, most people don't even know how to get into an orbit. They think flying up high enough is gonna do the job and that you can travel from planet to planet in a straight line.

 

Edit: Im not trying to say with this that Scifi writers have to be experts in physics and biology. There are more important things to a scifi universe than scientific accuracy. And mass effect does a lot of those right. I'm just saying that they didn't really thought through a lot of things.

Modificata da SuperJogi, 09 maggio 2015 - 05:58 .

[Heimerdinger]

If their biology is from the 1950s, their physics is from the 18th century. Reducing mass through a dark energy field is about as equally ridiculous as reading memories through DNA.

 

When it comes to works of fiction I would rather think of how X could work in that universe instead of why X could totally not work and tear it a part. The second option is a waste of time. Why bother with said work of fiction in the first place? Better to watch a documentary instead.

 

Starcraft had some impossible things, photon cannons, plasma blades, psyonic powers, mutations taking place in an instant and many more. It's still one of the best sci-fi games I ever played.

 

Stargate series. Tons of crazy stuff: time travel, alternate universes, time loops, wormholes, higher planes of existences, removing the consciousness from the body, insane FTL (it took them only 2 weeks travel between Milky Way - Pegasus). Yet I would watch this show all day if had the time, in fact I'm watching SGU on TV right now.

 

Reducing mass with dark energy (we don't really know what it is or what it can do) and reading memories from DNA works fine inside the mass effect universe. Best to enjoy it for what it is.

 

 

Edit: Im not trying to say with this that Scifi writers have to be experts in physics and biology. There are more important things to a scifi universe than scientific accuracy. And mass effect does a lot of those right. I'm just saying that they didn't really thought through a lot of things.

 

Fair point.

Modificata da Heimerdinger, 09 maggio 2015 - 06:48 .

[SuperJogi]

When it comes to works of fiction I would rather think of how X could work in that universe instead of why X could totally not work and tear it a part.

 

Your wording slightly confuses me. When you're thinking about how something could work your automaticly also thinking about how it will not work.

I think you want to say that it's OK to do impossible things as long as the universe stays internally consistent. With that i agree. Otherwise scifi would be quite boring.

 

The second option is a waste of time. Why bother with said work of fiction in the first place? Better to watch a documentary instead.

 

Thats where i don't agree. Scifi like star trek or mass effect is basicly a socratic exercise: Suppose you had the ability to do... What would the world be like? Most scifi writers only scratch on the surface of that and of course deviate from that in order to tell an interesting story with intersting characters. Thats completely OK, as I said in my edit, there are more important things to good scifi than scientific accuracy. I like to take that socratic exercise to the next level and ask myself: What would the world actually be like in detail, ignoring things like plot and storytelling? Would it actually work? And it's not a waste of time at all. For example: I learnt quite a lot of new things about processes like compton scattering and pair production while thinking about how to effectivly shield an ME ship against gamma radiation in my nuclear weapons thread. And maybe someone reading it learnt something new about this universe aswell. Does not sound like a waste of time to me. You can watch a documentary, but i find this much more interesting and fun.

 

Starcraft had some impossible things, photon cannons, plasma blades, psyonic powers, mutations taking place in an instant and many more. It's still one of the best sci-fi games I ever played.

 

Stargate series. Tons of crazy stuff: time travel, alternate universes, time loops, wormholes, higher planes of existences, removing the consciousness from the body, insane FTL (it took them only 2 weeks travel between Milky Way - Pegasus). Yet I would watch this show all day if had the time, in fact I'm watching SGU on TV right now.

 

If you take a quick look at my avatar you might be able to tell that it is a chaos space marine from Warhammer 40k. Wh40k is one of the most ridiculous, over the top scifi universes out there. And it's my favourite, and I think mass effect makes the second place. So please don't think I'm some physics nazi who understands no fun and is out here to rip apart scifi universes. If I didn't like the MEU, I would hardly have played all three games and be posting on this forum right now.

 

Edit: Btw. thank you for this post. Finally got me a good sig.

Modificata da SuperJogi, 09 maggio 2015 - 07:38 .

[Heimerdinger]

Your wording slightly confuses me. When you're thinking about how something could work your automaticly also thinking about how it will not work.

I think you want to say that it's OK to do impossible things as long as the universe stays internally consistent. With that i agree. Otherwise scifi would be quite boring.

 

English is not my native language and some ideas may get screwed up in the translation. I will illustrate with an example instead.

 

Mass Relays

 

- I know they are not realistic, and something like this would probably not work. Not much to think about here.

 

- I could instead think: how does this work inside the ME universe? Do the relays send signals to each other containing their position? How much energy would they need to open the transit corridor? How big a eezo core? How do they detect and communicate with incoming ships, some AI/VI maybe? This part is actually fun for me.

 

 

 

So please don't think I'm some physics nazi who understands no fun and is out here to rip apart scifi universes.

 

I never thought you are. Just saying it's best to take the ME universe for what it is and enjoy it. Although, I know people who actually have fun ripping sci-fi universes apart. LOL.

[SuperJogi]

English is not my native language

 

Not mine either.

 

- I could instead think: how does this work inside the ME universe? Do the relays send signals to each other containing their position? How much energy would they need to open the transit corridor? How big a eezo core? How do they detect and communicate with incoming ships, some AI/VI maybe? This part is actually fun for me.

 

Yes, I would love to answer questions like that too. The problem is just that you very quickly run into the problem that ME is very sparce with technical details necessary to answer them. Like: How much eezo is needed to reduce mass x by a factor of x. ME has no underlying, in universe theory. Then you have to go back to real world physical theories and thats when it all starts to fall apart.

 

I never thought you are. Just saying it's best to take the ME universe for what it is and enjoy it.

 

I do enjoy it for what it is. Doesn't mean I can't rip it apart anyway. It's my final revenge to Bioware for the ME3 ending

 

Although, I know people who actually have fun ripping sci-fi universes apart.

 

Ripping apart is not my intent. It's just usually the result when trying to explain things using real world physics.

 

Reducing mass with dark energy (we don't really know what it is or what it can do)

 

Thats true. We don't know exactly what dark energy is. But I could probably write a quite lengthy forum post about what would actually happen if you start changing the mass of subatomic particles. Like: "What would happen to the Normandy if you reduced its mass by a factor of 100?" In fact I might just do that, would take some time, but my shoddy knowledge of quantum chromo dynamics needs some serious polishing anyway. If the results are entertaining (like Cmdr. Shepard irradiating into space) i'm gonna post it and take my rightful position as the ultimate physics nazi on the BSN.

[Laughing_Man]

Thats true. We don't know exactly what dark energy is. But I could probably write a quite lengthy forum post about what would actually happen if you start changing the mass of subatomic particles. Like: "What would happen to the Normandy if you reduced its mass by a factor of 100?" In fact I might just do that, would take some time, but my shoddy knowledge of quantum chromo dynamics needs some serious polishing anyway. If the results are entertaining (like Cmdr. Shepard irradiating into space) i'm gonna post it and take my rightful position as the ultimate physics nazi on the BSN.

 

Yeah, that sounds like fun.

[KrrKs]

Or my favorite: they even fail at basic electrics:

 

"Negative current" What the hell is that that supposed to mean in this context? An electrical current is free electrons travelling through matter. It's power is always positve. "Negative" and "positve" are only used to discribe the direction of a current in a cuircut. It's completly arbitrary and makes no difference quantum mechanicly. So is Bioware telling me that I can change the fabric of reality by switching a battery around? TOP KEK

The only way I found to bear with the 'negative current' statement, is to pretend/assume that molecular Eezo forms a very strange crystal structure. One in which the [100] (or x) -direction shows a different behaviour than the [100] (or -x) one, so that the positive/negative direction is dependant on the crystal's orientation.

(Such a crystal would likely need more than 3 miller indices, though)

 

Don't ask me how, or why, though. The only way that I see is a form of built in PN-junction. Which does make even less sense if one tries to come up with a mechanic how/why that would form up naturally in the first place.

 

If the results are entertaining (like Cmdr. Shepard irradiating into space) i'm gonna post it and take my rightful position as the ultimate physics nazi on the BSN.

We impatiently await your claim on the throne

[Heimerdinger]

If the results are entertaining (like Cmdr. Shepard irradiating into space) i'm gonna post it and take my rightful position as the ultimate physics nazi on the BSN.

 

 

Cmdr. Shepard irradiating into space

 

I dare the Lazarus Project to try and fix that one...

[GriffithBlight]

It's good to see you guys are having fun with biological markers, Reapers interest in Shepard and stuff! 

 

 

The only way I found to bear with the 'negative current' statement, is to pretend/assume that molecular Eezo forms a very strange crystal structure. One in which the [100] (or x) -direction shows a different behaviour than the [100] (or -x) one, so that the positive/negative direction is dependant on the crystal's orientation.

(Such a crystal would likely need more than 3 miller indices, though)

 

 

Maybe a positron current? (I don't even know if a positron current is possible, physics are not my area)

 

 

 

Not mine either.

 

 

 

English is not my native language too, anyone here knows portuguese? 

 

To be honest, as whacky as Mass Effect's physics often are, the ME universe is at it's worst when it tries to dabble in biology. The prothean ability to read memories from DNA is Animus-level stupid. The whole genetic destiny argument means that, instead of Shepard, we might as well have sent a chimp up the citadel beam.

It would really be nice if SciFi writers informed themselves a little more on the current status of fields like molecular biology and neuroscience. They all seem to be stuck in the 1950s (probably the same with physics though).

Even the idea behind biotics - while kinda cool on the surface - is fairly insane. But I'll grant them that gameplay had to trump lore here probably.

 

So yea, when it comes to physics, at least they have that little loop hole with eezo, which they can jump through to make things happen. But with biology, that doesn't really help them much and things get ridiculous very fast.

 

That's what's cool in SciFi, it goes beyond human science horizon, and it's looks like the more absurd the better.

 

Actually, about biological markers, it's known that physcological states can produce them, but there's no further conclusive investigations if lifestyle, general memory and personal experiences can modify DNA as shown in MEU. Even the relationships between human mind and brain physiology are not clearly defined.

Anyway, in MEU it works good, and that's cool.

[SuperJogi]

The only way I found to bear with the 'negative current' statement, is to pretend/assume that molecular Eezo forms a very strange crystal structure. One in which the [100] (or x) -direction shows a different behaviour than the [100] (or -x) one, so that the positive/negative direction is dependant on the crystal's orientation.

(Such a crystal would likely need more than 3 miller indices, though)

 

Don't ask me how, or why, though. The only way that I see is a form of built in PN-junction. Which does make even less sense if one tries to come up with a mechanic how/why that would form up naturally in the first place.

 

So you actually know something about electrics, crystalline structures and stuff? Good, because my knowledge there is basic at best.

 

Maybe a positron current? (I don't even know if a positron current is possible, physics are not my area)

 

Assuming that eezo is made of protons, neutrons and electrons like any other element, sending a positron current through an electron shell is not a good idea. Unless you want to annihilate it and create some nice gamma rays.

If eezo is not made of "normal" matter and does not annihilate with positrons, it still leaves the question on how you would send the positrons through that. Your entire cuircut would have to be made of antimatter aswell and then you would somehow have to suspend that entire construction in a vacuum so that it doesn't annihilate with your surroundings. Does not sound like a realistic solution to me.

 

English is not my native language too, anyone here knows portuguese? 

 

Sorry, can only offer german. (and some horribly butchered attempts at french)

[MrFob]

U don't mind the "negative" and "positive" current at all. It's a pretty common slang term for people who routinely measure and manipulate electrical or bio-electrical systems with electrodes. It may not be a 100% accurate terminology but its use is so wide spread (and even found in text books) that I am good with it.

[KrrKs]

The thing is that the negative/positive is only relative to an assumed direction.

A material _(usually) doesn't care in which direction a current flows through it, it just gets hot.

 

The only 'materials' I know that react differently based on the direction of an applied voltage/current, are the aforementioned p-n junctions. And these have to be deliberately created by doping a carrier material with certain other atoms. (So there are actually 2 materials with different properties in the end)

[MrFob]

I've got no idea how a drive core is exactly supposed to work but I did assume that one generates a difference in electrical potential between the core material and the surrounding material (basically like in a capacitor). You charge the core either positively in reference to the outside electrode or negatively. Depending on which way you do it, mass is either increased or decreased in the ME field.

 

Whether that is the case or not, in the end, it doesn't mater though because the material obviously consists of (or at least contains) something that is not found in other elements and goes beyond you standard subatmoic particles. How elese would the mass effect itself happen? That's why i don't have so much of an issue with the physics in general because it assumes from the very start of the argument some materiel that remains inherently unexplained (and it can never be explained because if it could be, we'd be able to have the effect in real life right now). I am ok with that because it is the premise of nay SciFi. I only have a problem when writers do not deliberately go beyond todays physics/biology or whatever and THEN get it wrong (which happens quite a bit, especially when ME tries to get into biology.

[SuperJogi]

In Mass Effect 2, Legion explained how obtaining a certain technology is as important as the way you obtain it. And i think that this is one of the reapers' tactical brilliance, That species find Eezo, They don't know how to develop it nor do they know much about it. They just find it and it's capable of marvelous things. So, That hinders scientific development. It's logical and realistic.

 

This is actually one of the things in ME that really bothers me, and I don't mean like the physics nitpicking I usually do. No, this is something that actually bothers me about the MEU. Humans are driven by their curiosity, we always want to know more, no matter if that knowledge is actually useful or not. You're trying to tell me that the entire galaxy is dependent on technology that nobody understands? That nobody is even trying to understand? The codex tells us that eezo is naturally created during supernovaes. That tells me that it forms during high energy particle collisions, which means it can be created in a powerful enough particle accelerator. Your telling me that nobody has ever done that? That nobody is trying to see at which energy levels, through which interaction it gets created? When it decays? Through what forces it interacts? Does it need a special gauge boson to have it's mass changing effects? The notion that everyone in the galaxy has been using a ressource, for thousands of years in some cases, that they have no idea about what it is or how it works, drives my inner hobby particle physicist insane. Of course I don't expect some poor BW intern to make a page one rewrite of quantum field theory. I don't care how eezo works, but the people in the MEU should and they're not even trying. The same of course applies to the mass relays and the citadel. You have been living on a station for thousands of years and never bothered to fully explore it? And then you suddenly act all surprised when an advanced alien species shows up, that you already knew existed, because you were using the evidence all the time, but never bothered to actually look at. Especially considering the Asari were chosen by the protheans and had a prothean beacon on their homeworld giving them acces to advanced technology for almost 3000 years. Humanity gets a pass for beeing the new guy, but Asari are truly the most retarded of the lot.

[Laughing_Man]

You see, And i mean no offense here, You just look at the MEU in a scientific point of view. Not a storytelling point of view...

...Point is, The mysteries were there for reason, Not because BioWare was lazy. At least i think so.

 

Well the storytelling point of view kinda sucks as well.

 

When you force the idiot's ball into the hands of the council collective, and make them naive enough not to wonder what the hell managed to wipe out the Protheans - more or less a type-2 civilization, and make them dumb enough to simply be comfortable with using the relay network without really investing enough resources to try and understand them or recreate them during a period of more than 2000 years!

 

I'm not even going to ask why the council didn't have a plan for the possibilty of an attack by an alien race too numerous or advanced to deal with in the usual methods. (didn't the Rachni give them enough trouble?)

 

I mean, *I* would think about the possibility if I was in their shoes. Because the existance of some kind of a space-bogeyman is practically a statistical certainty when the galaxy is full of sentient life. (there are always apex predators)

 

"The Reapers cannot be defeated by conventional methods" - Of course. Mostly because the writers sufficiently castrated the intelligence of all the "NPC races" in the ME universe.

[SuperJogi]

You see, And i mean no offense here, You just look at the MEU in a scientific point of view. Not a storytelling point of view.

 

My major problem is not with MEUs dodgy science. It's that the people in it look at things like the mass relays and the citadel and go: "Guess that was build by the protheans, whatever." And when you then present them solid evidence that they where not build by the protheans they go: "YOU'RE CRAZY!" It almost seems like the entire galaxy is so caught up in their preconcieved notions, that are based on no evidence whatsoever, that they forget all scientific reasoning. The council almost seems like some religious cult worshipping the protheans, and when you say anything against their belief, YOU'RE CRAZY, HOW DARE YOU!

 

Anyways, I think that Eezo, Dark Energy, Space-Time Dilation and many other concepts were originally intended to be parts of the trilogy's ending as Drew K have stated in an interview. It'd have been a grand finale to the trilogy that would explain a whole lot of things about Mass Effect. A gigantic mass effect 1-like twist that would leave you absolutely stunned. Point is, The mysteries were there for reason, Not because BioWare was lazy. At least i think so.

 

That would have been great, but instead BW pulled a Lost and went full magic, which ironicly they specificly said wouldn't do.