33 réponses à ce sujet

[andnico]

As a PC player that has only console-based friends and as someone who can onl play Bioware multiplayer modes when time affords the option, I am, as I assume many are, left to the tender mercies of the match finder and pick-up groups for my DAMP experience. The new update is, of course, an exciting addition to the game and I've sunk more hours into multi this week than I had colllectively prior to its release.

 

Why?

 

Dragons (a not uncommon answer I'd assume).

 

However, given the costs associated with summoning a dragon, obviously, a pick-up group is an extremely unlikely environment to actually get to fight a dragon. Given that I can assume I am not alone in wanting to experience this selling point of the new DLC, certainly it seems reasonable that Bioware might incorporate some strategy where PUG's might have a chance to fight a dragon without some member just rolling the dice and hoping the group could handle said fight, some beneificent player will burn their valuable cloth on the hope of a dragon kill.

 

As it stands, the current dragon summoning system seems to introduce a chilling effect on the idea of actually getting to fight a dragon and, as a PUG-only player, during this weekend event I have realized my odds of ever actually getting to fight a dragon are of an exceedlingy low probabliity.

 

Could there not be some option implemented where, occasionally, a dragon gong hammer falls randomly (perhaps 1/8 or maybe 1/4 the time) that would allow PUG plays to experience this content-which looks to be fantastic, however, of course, most PUG players will currently never get to experience it-so that those who do not have a dedicated group they are confident in might, at least, get a chance to have more interactions with dragons than to simply be blown up by then while they place an inquisition banner?

[TormDK]

The "fix" is easy - open your microphone and engage the players in your group on the topic.

[Broganisity]

If you think your group is competent, you or someone else may just pop a horn.

[Johnsen1972]

why not lower the costs for dragon call? If it just would cost metal or leather I would always make one.

 

Right now most pugs dont summon dragons- maybe one out of 5 groups. A bit more in perilous.

[andnico]

The "fix" is easy - open your microphone and engage the players in your group on the topic.

 

Thank you for your suggestion. I do, in fact, have a microphone, which I use when I feel I can offer suggestions that might help the group and I agree that in ideal circumstances that is the best option, for higher-tier players,  to go about making a decision about experiencing dragon content. I also acknowledge that the dragon fights should be a special and exciting thing. However, the expense involved in the dragon fight also means that a fun and interesting part of the multiplayer component of the game is, essentially, locked to only groups who think the investment might be worthwhile. I know, as a player just trying to acquire all the characters multiplayer has to offer, it is not really a sound gamble in terms of materials expenditure and I myself, even in the best of circumstances, would be wary of using up my crafting materials on even a routine dragon.

 

While, certainly, the dragon content encourages investment in the game in terms of time, it seems, also, that the dragon content could have been a winning strategy for drawing players previously uninterested in the multiplayer component into the game. However, the overhead makes it unlikely they will get to experience that content.

 

In short, it seems unfortunate that the DLC might not draw players in, because there is no real mechanism for allowing new players to experience that content in an intuitive, fun way since they do not have an established group.

[Nameless_Wanderer]

 

In short, it seems unfortunate that the DLC might not draw players in, because there is no real mechanism for allowing new players to experience that content in an intuitive, fun way since they do not have an established group.

Yeah, I'm afraid to say that the whole thing seems very badly thought out. I would say that in nearly all of my routine and threatening PUGs, no one bothers with summoning the dragon now. (Okay, the weekend event has seen an occasional call used.) Sadly, it isn't just the cost of mats - it is a number of factors:

 

1) The rewards are not worth it. Once you have experienced a dragon fight a few times for the novelty, there is no point doing it unless you are on Perilous (which in itself means sinking sometimes 30-40 mins on some runs for absolutely nothing). Six months wait for just a handful of weapons to be added to the game, which are then only really attainable by those who have the dragon on farm on Perilous. Great move.

2) I have seen a lot of people DCing in the final wave before the dragon. It has happened to me several times also. Particularly painful when someone has actually played a call and then the team loses half its members. I assume this has been reported in the bug thread.

3) That final wave before the dragon is way too intense for a lot of players. Unless you have a barrier-hero or a super competent team, most PUGs will eventually wipe. The factor here being the ridiculous ranged damage again, which Bioware don't seem that bothered about tweaking. Again, this means that dragon's calls are rarely used unless a PUG group have proved super competent at the rest of the run, and ideally there is a barrier wielder. The latter admittedly more relevant for Perilous runs.

4) Frame rate. If you have one or more Virtuosos then the final two zones become a slide show. I'm amazed this got through to release. Sometimes it is borderline unplayable, but you persevere because someone might have used their call and you're determined to fight the dragon. While the fighting isn't so hard, if a player falls, it is incredibly hard to resuscitate them when the game is jumping so much.

 

In short, dragon content is amazing. But the game needs more loot incentive for end-players at PUG level. and the mat cost for the dragon's call is plainly ridiculous. I think a lot of players are actually holding back because they are expecting some kind of change there. At least that is what I am hoping.

 

I like your idea of having it as a possible drop (maybe from a treasure chest).

 

Also think it would be good if there could be an icon on someone's banner when you are in the lobby to see that they have the call crafted. I actually did a perilous yesterday where we reached the gong, and no one had a call crafted (!). I didn't because I had already wasted two previously to the disconnect issue.

 

Think Bioware need to look again at the whole dragon call issue. And the way they have implemented loot. Personally, I don't understand why they can't have tiered it so that the purples drop on all levels, but at each difficulty the stats are improved. That at least gives something for everyone to realistically aim for.

 

Anyway, that's my gripey two cents after a frustrating 8+ hours playing yesterday!  

[kaileena_sands]

If you think your group is competent, you or someone else may just pop a horn.

 

That's what I do, too. I have lost only one dragon call this way for now, seems like I am getting the good pugs.

[BadgerladDK]

Can't help you with the cost issues, but in terms of determining if the gong should be hit: if the team can competently reach the gong, they can win the Dragon fight. No harder than a normal boss.

[EVILFLUFFMONSTER]

Any doubt, just play Zither. Unless your team mates are idiots, nobody can possibly die with a well made defensive Zither. This said, I have ran into a lot of idiots..

[Stinja]

I PUG perilous dragons, but i have a checklist:

 

- if in the same party, never use a key twice in a row (make PUGs take turns)

- otherwise have one dragon call built myself

- never use it on Routine or Threatening (not worth it)

- never use on a Shock Dragon (too much chance of PUG wipe)

- be worried if no Barrier kit in party (zone 4 wipes)

- be worried if there's any deaths before the gong

- be worried if there's any "weak" or mid level kits

- be worried if you've had major lag/framerate hitches

 

- judge the worries, then assuming everything ticks off, and hit that gong   

- Profit*!

 

 

Ignoring return on investment,  I do agree on the costs though:  way too high for Routine and Threatening, and they should of been scaled to difficulty.  i.e.:  Routine Dragon Call,  Threatening Dragon Call, Perilous Dragon Call, as separate keys to build, with different mats needed.

 

Presumably the intention is you farm normal maps multiple times to get the mats, then do a single Dragon run, then farm mats again.  Of course established player-parties with hundreds of mats between them just did key after key - breaking the intent.

[nibyl]

PUGs are so damn cheap when it comes to dragon calls. Not that I'm going to run out of materials any time soon but still, feels kinda stupid when I'm in a threatening match and there's thee other players spamming COME HERE in front of the gong. Really guys, really? None of you brought your own? "Fine, I'll do it"

 

I don't mean to come across as whiny, I get that most players probably don't have that much cloth so they need to save it and I don't mind helping pugs. It's just a bit annoying sometimes when it feels like people count on someone else to have the dragon call.

[Jebbadiah Jenkins]

Routine dragons should be free.

 

Threatening dragons should cost 2 cloth, 3 metal, 3 leather. (I still wouldn't use a call even at this cost, but someone with mid tier gear might)

 

(Possibly) All dragons should give increased chance at dragon loot for the person who rang the gong. (More incentive to use it)

 

(Possibly) The dragon castle map on perilous public lobbies, should be gear score dependent and level dependent (no entrance unless gear score =?, and must be at least level 12-14 ish) Private lobbies should have no restrictions.

[Jebbadiah Jenkins]

Any doubt, just play Zither. Unless your team mates are idiots, nobody can possibly die with a well made defensive Zither. This said, I have ran into a lot of idiots..

 Yeah it's amazing,.. I even get on my mic and tell people,.. "Hey guys lets just stick together and we'll be invincible",... "Hey (insert random pug name here), come stand by me and you won't die anymore",... but they run off and open doors, run off by themselves, don't use line of sight to avoid ranged attacks,...

 

I was so frustrated last night after two room 4 perilous wipes in a row,.. with two really, really, strong teams, that just smashed through the first 3 rooms. There is no reason why we should of wiped, but they wouldn't come to the room to hide, they had to run straight up the stairs and get flanked from every position.

[Kungsarme]

If a dragon run is taking 30 to 40 minutes you are doing it wrong. Has nothing to do with promotes. If your team is running into an area where you are getting attacked from all sides and ranged enemies are hitting you from everywhere you have made a mistake.

[ParthianShotX]

 

- be worried if there's any "weak" or mid level kits

 

how would you categorize a weak kit?  I ask because I got kicked from two threatening lobbies last night (a new experience for me); once as a level 12 keeper (I'm going for the banner) and once as a level 16 archer.  Both more than adequate to make the run with a team that is even only somewhat capable. I've done so. Interestingly, I landed in the second lobby just as they wiped. They had a virtuoso so I changed from keeper to archer -- I've racked up some of my highest killstreaks on that map with archer.  Sure, he doesn't have the barrier ability of the keeper but he kills things faster and they already had a virtuoso.  I was mystified and a little annoyed.  FWIW, I had the threatening banner and title -- not that folks would necessarily recognize that -- merely mentioned to say I wasn't kicked for being bannerless.  I think folks are being extremely selective even going into the match.

[Drasca]

how would you categorize a weak kit?  I ask because I got kicked from two threatening lobbies last night (a new experience for me); once as a level 12 keeper (I'm going for the banner) and once as a level 16 archer.

 

Those aren't weak kits. Those are weak pugs you don't want to play with. They're doing you a favor sending you to another lobby.

 

Personally I still recommend people go away from hunter and alchemist though. Also for them to respec their ele (or choose another class) if they don't go firewall + firestorm + firemine. If they're level 5, then FW.

 

Perilous Castle map has too many enemies particularly stalker / shadows to avoid those abilities. Barrier addresses stray arrows. FM + FS directly addresses the Dagger Rogue issue. FW addresses everything else.

 

If you're on PC, and want to play in a coordinated team, feel free to message me. I run Perilous games a lot. The caveat being coordinated, which means communication is required (even if it is yes/no using F4 and F2, and typing through Origin).

[andnico]

Can't help you with the cost issues, but in terms of determining if the gong should be hit: if the team can competently reach the gong, they can win the Dragon fight. No harder than a normal boss.

Thanks for posting this. It gives me a better idea of what dragon fights are like in terms of difficulty. Also now I can't help but consider a dragon call as a potential handy Demon commander preventer.

[andnico]

Those aren't weak kits. Those are weak pugs you don't want to play with. They're doing you a favor sending you to another lobby.

 

Personally I still recommend people go away from hunter and alchemist though. Also for them to respec their ele (or choose another class) if they don't go firewall + firestorm + firemine. If they're level 5, then FW.

 

Perilous Castle map has too many enemies particularly stalker / shadows to avoid those abilities. Barrier addresses stray arrows. FM + FS directly addresses the Dagger Rogue issue. FW addresses everything else.

 

If you're on PC, and want to play in a coordinated team, feel free to message me. I run Perilous games a lot. The caveat being coordinated, which means communication is required (even if it is yes/no using F4 and F2, and typing through Origin).

Drasca, I saw that you had posted in this thread and wanted to send my appreciation your way for you character build guides. Schleping my way into the game your guides have been invaluable in terms of figuring out not only a build but the general idea behind a character class (prince of pesia for Assassin, for instance, is spot on and something I wouldn't have immediately thought of). So my hats off to you.

[Drasca]

Drasca, I saw that you had posted in this thread and wanted to send my appreciation your way for you character build guides. Schleping my way into the game your guides have been invaluable in terms of figuring out not only a build but the general idea behind a character class (prince of pesia for Assassin, for instance, is spot on and something I wouldn't have immediately thought of). So my hats off to you.

 

 

Hey thanks, I'm glad you're able to benefit from it. Go have fun, and create more fun for yourself and others.

 

I do what I can, but I don't have the time and ability to make the full interactive guides I'd like. If I had the toolset (and ideally paid for my time), I'd make interactive mini-tutorials demonstrating abilities, and how to use them, alongside combos, enemy movement and animations.

 

Video capture and editing is too time consuming for my free time, so text is the quick and dirty bare bones basic all I can afford to do.

[Beerfish]

I haven't had too much of a problem in the regard and i play pugs almost exclusively.  I will hae to start some lobbies myself though becasue almost all of the dragons are frost dragons, i have fought one fire guy and never seen a lightning dragon.

[Beerfish]

If a dragon run is taking 30 to 40 minutes you are doing it wrong. Has nothing to do with promotes. If your team is running into an area where you are getting attacked from all sides and ranged enemies are hitting you from everywhere you have made a mistake.

I've had at least half hours games and it had nothing to do with the team getting attacked or how we played defense, it was just sheer volume of enemies.

[GreatBlueHeron]

how would you categorize a weak kit?  I ask because I got kicked from two threatening lobbies last night (a new experience for me); once as a level 12 keeper (I'm going for the banner) and once as a level 16 archer.  Both more than adequate to make the run with a team that is even only somewhat capable. I've done so. Interestingly, I landed in the second lobby just as they wiped. They had a virtuoso so I changed from keeper to archer -- I've racked up some of my highest killstreaks on that map with archer.  Sure, he doesn't have the barrier ability of the keeper but he kills things faster and they already had a virtuoso.  I was mystified and a little annoyed.  FWIW, I had the threatening banner and title -- not that folks would necessarily recognize that -- merely mentioned to say I wasn't kicked for being bannerless.  I think folks are being extremely selective even going into the match.

I've met some really douchy people on the new map (platform: ps3). Landed in a threatening group with people who obviously promoted enough that they should be playing perilous (could tell they had great gear and weapons....I don't yet have a HOK ring, so as archer I brought along bow of cruel redemption). One of the zones I hit the font at the beginning and a douch said "If you die, I won't revive you". Sorry to disappoint, I didn't die. Not sure why people are saving the fonts on threatening.

This is why I can't stand the vast majority of players with mics. They have no desire to coordinate--its all about the epeen. I don't even use a mic because of the douches. I've got a mouth on me and I'd do nothing but explode in a barrage of insults as soon as the first douchy comment was spoken. That would be annoying for everyone involved, so I'm considerate--my mic collects dust.

[EVILFLUFFMONSTER]

I got kicked on routine lol, or people left when I went to level up my new lvl 1 Virtuoso - ridiculous as I still had way more survivability than they did. Who kicks on routine, seriously?! 

 

Drasca's guides rock. Wish I had a PC just so I could play with the guy (though I am sure after the first few games he probably wouldn't want to lol)

[Kungsarme]

I never really played the dual wields until Isabela. Picked up a wicked grace and a purple dragon dagger last night, so I thought I'd give my crack alchemist a go after St. Luke made everything more interesting. Wow this 40 something player has been laughing so hard. I always do a solo routine first to get and idea of the class, then a group routine to hit 6 or 7 before going to a threatening. With this i went threatening at 4 because with my gear it was stupid easy. Random launch threatening at 4 and caught the castle, 2 people queued and the 20 left. Another joined and left. And again. Finally we launched. Completion, topped the board. I have 40 or so promotes, not a ton by any means, but RNG has pooped rainbows upon my bowl of cheerios and have most of the desired gear at about 450k in.

Travel the smart route in the castle and life is easy yet still a lot of fun.

[capn233]

However, given the costs associated with summoning a dragon, obviously, a pick-up group is an extremely unlikely environment to actually get to fight a dragon. Given that I can assume I am not alone in wanting to experience this selling point of the new DLC, certainly it seems reasonable that Bioware might incorporate some strategy where PUG's might have a chance to fight a dragon without some member just rolling the dice and hoping the group could handle said fight, some beneificent player will burn their valuable cloth on the hope of a dragon kill.

 

Yes, basically every pug (at least threatening) lobby I went into yesterday was preset Ferelden Castle, but nobody brought along a dragon call.  Which means playing the crappiest Wave 5 area against the standard factions, which is fairly irritating.  Would have much rather played more games on the standard maps.

 

Anyway it is a catch 22.  In these sort of games nobody wants to spend the mats on the call, or nobody has them to begin with.  I count myself as one of them since in a vacuum the threatening dragon doesn't really make a lot of sense to fight.  On the other hand, random pugs should probably actually have a higher probability of finishing the game against that dragon rather than against the standard bosses.  The easiest way to be cheap in this case is to just change the map.

 

I PUG perilous dragons, but i have a checklist:

 

- never use on a Shock Dragon (too much chance of PUG wipe)

 

Can the shock attacks be dispelled like against the lightning dragons in SP?  The only electric dragons I went up against so far the party didn't have anybody with Dispel or Spell Purge.  Did have Zither both times, which potentially could have had power cord w/ upgrade but they never seemed to use that ability so I have no idea if that works (they mainly ran around doing something, not sure what).

 

I've met some really douchy people on the new map (platform: ps3). Landed in a threatening group with people who obviously promoted enough that they should be playing perilous (could tell they had great gear and weapons....I don't yet have a HOK ring, so as archer I brought along bow of cruel redemption). One of the zones I hit the font at the beginning and a douch said "If you die, I won't revive you". Sorry to disappoint, I didn't die. Not sure why people are saving the fonts on threatening.

This is why I can't stand the vast majority of players with mics. They have no desire to coordinate--its all about the epeen. I don't even use a mic because of the douches. I've got a mouth on me and I'd do nothing but explode in a barrage of insults as soon as the first douchy comment was spoken. That would be annoying for everyone involved, so I'm considerate--my mic collects dust.

 

That can happen on any platform, even if there are probably a higher proportion of mutes on PC (I am usually one of them in a pug).  Yesterday was the first time I heard people bitching on PC though (only been playing since March so maybe that is why).  Of course there was plenty of mic always on crap like talking to roommates about beer or having the volume so high that I can hear an echo through their mic... meaning they got muted.  Muting half the team usually is a bad omen.