193 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Personally I find where the Geth can go in terms of story promising. We saw them as a consensus, but now we can see them dealing with the fact they are individuals, either with the help of the repurposed Reaper upgrades or achieving it themselves, having to do and think by themselves rather than always having others do it with them. It's a whole new universe for them. 

[Guanxii]

Personally I find where the Geth can go in terms of story promising. We saw them as a consensus, but now we can see them dealing with the fact they are individuals, either with the help of the repurposed Reaper upgrades or achieving it themselves, having to do and think by themselves rather than always having others do it with them. It's a whole new universe for them.

Interesting. Now that the Geth are individuals should they survive the Geth would no longer aspire to 'a singular future' and would not require others in huge numbers anymore for intelligence so watching the way their civilization fractures from now on would be fascinating to watch unfold now that the old mega-structure dream for the entire species is null & void.

 

Any 'Geth colonists' travelling to Andromeda would be in search of 'their own futures' just as much as any organic would. Some Geth colonists may be in search of a new homeworld for themselves, friends?, even family? and their wider species which reflects their newly found independent spirit and aspirations as people while others might just completely assimilate with the organic settlers into a meta form of consensus.

[Nitrocuban]

Geth not only on the search for a new home but also for a new identity. Like Borg off the collective.

Would be easy to write something like this and it's plausible for them to join the ark fleet.

[RatThing]

I don't agree on the first part, but on the bolded section I agree wholeheartedly. 

 

 

If the Geth and Quarians come back, I don't want to see them distrustful of one another, or for the Quarians to be the outcasts of society, or for the Geth to be striving to "be like us" etc. Let new plotlines develop, carry the narrative further to explore the character of each species more instead of retreading old ground. I don't want the same exact themes from the original trilogy to crop up in new titles.

 

I don't want to see the Krogan opining about the days before the Genophage, and being curmudgeons with the rest of galaxy because of their plight. I don't want to see humanity struggling to prove itself as the underdog, or to redo the whole "humans are special" shtick again, etc.

 

Having Geth and Quarians in the game without having conflict between them wouldn`t make sense given their history, unless you force the peace option for Rannoch on the player. The most defining trait of the Quarian race is them being vagrants and outcasts. Take that away and you just have another humanized race. What`s the point?

As for the Geth, ever since Asimov and Terminator the artificial intelligence stuff is the same in every damn sci fi story. Either they're Pinocchios striving to be real people or they're robotic killing mashines (and no, L'Etoiles stuff isn't any different). I don't see how any of them can bring anything new to the story. It would just please the fan groups.

[Vortex13]

Having Geth and Quarians in the game without having conflict between them wouldn`t make sence given their history, unless you force the peace option for Rannoch on the player. The most defining trait of the Quarian race is them being vagrants and outcasts. Take that away and you just have another humanized race. What`s the point?

As for the Geth, ever since Asimov and Terminator the artificial intelligence stuff is the same in every damn sci fi story. Either they're Pinocchios striving to be real people or they're robotic killing mashines (and no, L'Etoiles stuff isn't any different). I don't see how any of them can bring anything new to the story. It would just please the fan groups.

 

 

The Quarians and Geth might be distrustful of each other, but it wouldn't be nearly the same as how it was portrayed in the first three games. Being confined to a small group that has to work together to survive will quickly iron out any extremist viewpoints from either side. Look at the (new) Battlestar Galactica, the human survivors and the Cylon rebels had to work together to survive. They might not like or trust one another, but they aren't constantly trying to kill each other either.

 

 

Also it would make no sense for the Quarians to be societal outcasts among the Milky Way refugees, what possible reason would there be in shunning them? It's not like the Asari, or Turian refugees have a home planet that they can fall back to; everyone will literally be in the same boat (or several smaller boats). As for the Geth, I would disagree that they were the stereotypical troupe with L'Etolies version of them. They were different than us, (alien) and they were okay with that. The ME 2 Geth didn't despise organics, nor did they want to be like us. Legion's interactions were more about trying to understand the alien nature of organic society, than trying to pull a Commander Data on us; which was a nice change of pace, until ME 3 roll around. 

[CrutchCricket]

 

• Legion lies to the player (twice), expresses gratitude or anger (depending on the decisions after killing the Reaper), once again raises the concept of soul. Those are human characteristics, no? Of course, one might say that those characteristics are not limited to humans, especially in a universe with alien races. But in that case, the whole notion of anthropomorphism makes no sense in this context. 
• You might not, but others have. There are people who hate what ME3 did to the geth. There are people who love it. 
• Once again, I'm not arguing against viability. Bioware has set the bar quite low. Synthesis, Lazarus Project - they can pretty much do anything now and it won't be any less plausible than those. Doesn't mean they should.
• If you don't address the differences between synthetics and organics, you might as well put Vulcans in Mass Effect. Because that's what the geth will look like if their synthetic state is never brought up. You'll have to bring that up to keep geth... geth. It's not about simple differences of cultures, like Rachni and humanity, for example. It's about the geth being created life. 

 

• The heretics were spying on the True Geth in ME2. Proof of deception before the supposed anthropomorphization. It's debatable whether the emotional responses were genuine or emulated. And wasn't the soul thing asked in ME2?
• I think they're overblowing the issue, personally. But to each their own.
• Bringing the geth back is peanuts compared to those examples. Look at the pros and cons. Pros- recognizability, logic in being involved with Ark project, therefore improving feasibility. Cons: a bit of a contrivance. Not much to stand against it I think.
• It's been addressed enough. Again, not every appearance of AI, particularly if said AI already appeared in a major role needs to be about this theme.

[Vazgen]

• The heretics were spying on the True Geth in ME2. Proof of deception before the supposed anthropomorphization. It's debatable whether the emotional responses were genuine or emulated. And wasn't the soul thing asked in ME2?
• I think they're overblowing the issue, personally. But to each their own.
• Bringing the geth back is peanuts compared to those examples. Look at the pros and cons. Pros- recognizability, logic in being involved with Ark project, therefore improving feasibility. Cons: a bit of a contrivance. Not much to stand against it I think.
• It's been addressed enough. Again, not every appearance of AI, particularly if said AI already appeared in a major role needs to be about this theme.

• It was in ME3. "Do you remember the question that caused the creators to attack us, Tali'Zorah? Does this unit have a soul?" If you kill Legion "Tali'Zorah, does this unit have a soul?". Note that those were the heretics (Reaper worshipers) spying on the True Geth. Legion did not even comprehend the notion in ME2.
• Sure thing.
• "A bit of a contrivance" seems like quite an ass pull. It's minor for you, major for others.
• I'm not saying that the AI inclusion will necessarily revolve around synthetic vs organic conflict/theme. I'm saying that if there is an AI, that theme/conflict will come up at some point, even if only in a minor way. I prefer not to have it at all. To each his own.

[RatThing]

The Quarians and Geth might be distrustful of each other, but it wouldn't be nearly the same as how it was portrayed in the first three games. Being confined to a small group that has to work together to survive will quickly iron out any extremist viewpoints from either side. Look at the (new) Battlestar Galactica, the human survivors and the Cylon rebels had to work together to survive. They might not like or trust one another, but they aren't constantly trying to kill each other either.

 

 

Also it would make no sense for the Quarians to be societal outcasts among the Milky Way refugees, what possible reason would there be in shunning them? It's not like the Asari, or Turian refugees have a home planet that they can fall back to; everyone will literally be in the same boat (or several smaller boats). As for the Geth, I would disagree that they were the stereotypical troupe with L'Etolies version of them. They were different than us, (alien) and they were okay with that. The ME 2 Geth didn't despise organics, nor did they want to be like us. Legion's interactions were more about trying to understand the alien nature of organic society, than trying to pull a Commander Data on us; which was a nice change of pace, until ME 3 roll around. 

 

a) Why in the world should they work together? Especially because you`re in a small group fighting for your survival you wouldn't bring anyone with you who might cause you trouble. Plus who would invite the Geth in the first place? The Geth are always hostile to organics, except if you take the peace option on Rannoch, which I dind't. And I've chosen on two occasions to get rid of them, on Rannoch and during the ending. Having them with me again would practically nullify everything I did in the previous game.

 

b ) Yeah, it wouldn't make sence for the Quarians to be outcastds. So they would be just another humanized race like the Turians, Salarians, Batarians etc etc. Again, what's the point?

 

c ) L'etoiles "Geth wanting to be different" thing is just a gimmick. If anything, then it takes the Pinocchio trope even further. Now that countless sci fi stories established the robots as real boys it's time for robotic emancipation. Hence his ridiculously stupid comment about "synthetics wanting to be organics" and how it is as racist as a black man wanting to be white. In the end the whole theme is still only about establishing the Geth as real people and you to swallow it (or you're the bad guy). Seen it a thousand times in different versions, to hell with it already.

[CrutchCricket]

 

• It was in ME3. "Do you remember the question that caused the creators to attack us, Tali'Zorah? Does this unit have a soul?" If you kill Legion "Tali'Zorah, does this unit have a soul?". Note that those were the heretics (Reaper worshipers) spying on the True Geth. Legion did not even comprehend the notion in ME2.
• Sure thing.
• "A bit of a contrivance" seems like quite an ass pull. It's minor for you, major for others.
• I'm not saying that the AI inclusion will necessarily revolve around synthetic vs organic conflict/theme. I'm saying that if there is an AI, that theme/conflict will come up at some point, even if only in a minor way. I prefer not to have it at all. To each his own.

 

• The heretics were not fundamentally altered by the Reapers. They were still geth, but with a different conclusion. Thus geth are capable of deception, potentially. All that was different was a variable.
• It really isn't. Do you want me to list the ways it could work with minimal retcons?
• Depends what you label as minor. If minor can go as low as "a side conversation" I might be inclined to agree. Otherwise even if it's a whole sidequest like Luna Base in ME1 I wouldn't mind because prior to the holokid the series wasn't all in my face about it. I think even if you like the endings that's where the aversion might come from. They really shoved it down our throats.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 The Geth are always hostile to organics, except if you take the peace option on Rannoch, which I dind't.

 

Not true. Regardless of what happens on Rannoch, there are Geth who side with the galaxy and fight the Reapers. 

[RatThing]

Not true. Regardless of what happens on Rannoch, there are Geth who side with the galaxy and fight the Reapers. 

 

Where does this come from? How can they fight the Reapers if they're controlled by them before Rannoch and destroyed after? Anyways, even if that's true, this is not an example of cooperation. They fight for themselves and against their own termination.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Where does this come from? How can they fight the Reapers if they're controlled by them before Rannoch and destroyed after? Anyways, even if that's true, this is not an example of cooperation. They fight for themselves and against their own termination.

From the MP Bioware states is canon. 

 

Most likely Legion warned them before being captured so they disconnected themselves from the Geth Consensus. We see examples of them doing this in the games, like the Heretics in the trilogy and the Geth Primes in ME3. 

 

It is cooperation. The Geth could easily just hide somewhere the Reapers would never look. It's not like they need food, water, air, etc to live. But instead they risk termination by fighting the Reaper forces with the other races, including Quarians. So really the notion that the Quarians and Geth couldn't be allies unless the peace option on Rannoch was chosen is disproven since there are Geth and Quarians who have already done it. 

[RatThing]

MP supposed to be canon? Players are fighting Geth there, and even Collectors. If that's even remotely true then I understand now why people complain about MP. As far as I remember though, canon is only that MP is a simulator that prepares fighters for the war. So nothing is disproven.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

MP supposed to be canon? Players are fighting Geth there, and even Collectors. If that's even remotely true then I understand now why people complain about MP. As far as I remember though, canon is only that MP is a simulator that prepares fighters for the war. So nothing is disproven.

No, the entire MP is canon as in actual battles. There are even NPCs referring to events in the MP as being actual missions in the Citadel DLC. 

 

The Geth we fight in MP are the Heretics who remain loyal to the Reapers. The Collectors are explained to be ones that remained in Dark Space on Black Arks until the Reapers brought them in. 

[Malanek]

MP supposed to be canon? Players are fighting Geth there, and even Collectors. If that's even remotely true then I understand now why people complain about MP. As far as I remember though, canon is only that MP is a simulator that prepares fighters for the war. So nothing is disproven.

Very loosely yes, but it isn't a firm thing and I wouldn't read too much into it. There were never Geth heretics fighting on the London streets for example.

 

I believe the part where the Geth were fighting for you is supposed to happen after Rannoch with a peace outcome. 

[Quarian Master Race]

No, the entire MP is canon as in actual battles. There are even NPCs referring to events in the MP as being actual missions in the Citadel DLC. 

 

The Geth we fight in MP are the Heretics who remain loyal to the Reapers. The Collectors are explained to be ones that remained in Dark Space on Black Arks until the Reapers brought them in. 

Slight correction, the "geth" enemies in MP are merely platforms animated with Reaper code as described by the asari councilor immediately after the completion of Rannoch, so not really geth at all. More like any other type of husks

Really, the declaration of MP as canon more implies that peace also is. You'd need a lot of asspulls to explain both how the geth can suddenly speak and operate as individual platforms without Reaper code, and why they are allowed into the N7 Spec Ops with the organic species, especially in a playthrough where one never activated Legion (and thus no one even knows what the difference between a Heretic and a normal geth is).

Of course, the geth characters are all DLC and the multiplayer wasn't originally shipped with them in it, either, so it could just be an oversight.

[RatThing]

No, the entire MP is canon as in actual battles.

 

Then they've completely lost it and I won't discuss this nonsense any further. This sums up pretty much why.

 

You'd need a lot of asspulls to explain both how the geth can suddenly speak and operate as individual platforms without Reaper code, and why they are allowed into the N7 Spec Ops with the organic species, especially in a playthrough where one never activated Legion (and thus no one even knows what the difference between a Heretic and a normal geth is).

 

Edit:

 

 

I believe the part where the Geth were fighting for you is supposed to happen after Rannoch with a peace outcome.

 

That is the only way to make sense of it.

[saMoorai]

Legion can't be "rebuilt." Legion was a collective of programs that was taken apart and dispersed among the Geth or killed by Shepard before uploading "himself" to another platform.

Don't get me wrong, rebuilding Legion probably would be impossible, But I can see ways for Bioware to do it if they wanted. I personally find the idea of Legion being rebuilt to find his entire people destroyed because Shepard chose the Destroy ending to be very promising, for example.

 

Not that I expect that to ever happen in this series. It's mostly just a Headcanon thing.

[Vazgen]

• The heretics were not fundamentally altered by the Reapers. They were still geth, but with a different conclusion. Thus geth are capable of deception, potentially. All that was different was a variable.
• It really isn't. Do you want me to list the ways it could work with minimal retcons?
• Depends what you label as minor. If minor can go as low as "a side conversation" I might be inclined to agree. Otherwise even if it's a whole sidequest like Luna Base in ME1 I wouldn't mind because prior to the holokid the series wasn't all in my face about it. I think even if you like the endings that's where the aversion might come from. They really shoved it down our throats.

• OK, I think we need to reassess the subject of discussion. Are we discussing whether the geth became anthropomorphic before or after the Reaper code? Or whether they ever became anthropomorphic? Within the context, of course, otherwise I don't think such definition can be applied to individuals in a universe where there are multiple races with human characteristics.
• I'd be interested to hear this, yes.
• Side quest, or a conversation between NPCs, or relations between two colonies - organic and synthetic (revolving around different issues but colored with organic vs synthetic dissonance). These are the implementations I'd consider minor. And the reason why I don't want more of this is not related to the ending, more like the whole trilogy where that theme surfaced quite a lot (Reapers, for example, while not being purely synthetic, were a central pillar of the trilogy and attributed to this theme). I'd prefer Mass Effect to be more about the difficulties organics face and overcome, without intervention from synthetic life.

[CrutchCricket]

 

• OK, I think we need to reassess the subject of discussion. Are we discussing whether the geth became anthropomorphic before or after the Reaper code? Or whether they ever became anthropomorphic? Within the context, of course, otherwise I don't think such definition can be applied to individuals in a universe where there are multiple races with human characteristics.
• I'd be interested to hear this, yes.
• Side quest, or a conversation between NPCs, or relations between two colonies - organic and synthetic (revolving around different issues but colored with organic vs synthetic dissonance). These are the implementations I'd consider minor. And the reason why I don't want more of this is not related to the ending, more like the whole trilogy where that theme surfaced quite a lot (Reapers, for example, while not being purely synthetic, were a central pillar of the trilogy and attributed to this theme). I'd prefer Mass Effect to be more about the difficulties organics face and overcome, without intervention from synthetic life.

 

• The geth never became anthropomorphic. They became individualized after the Reaper code. "Anthropomorphic" in this context still refers to the possession of human characteristics and perspectives, which yes all races are hilariously lumped in that category, apart from the geth, the rachni, the keepers (maybe) the Thorian and the Reapers.
• Simplest way to do it? Second schism. After the heretics were destroyed or controlled a third faction within the geth began analyzing the Old Machines and concluded that the probability of defeat was too high. They came to a different conclusion, namely to hide and shield themselves from the Reapers and their tools (the relays) until the harvest is over. They were either discovered by the Ark creators or made their own way to Andromeda and we encounter them there.
• Possibility two: Same actions as above but instead of parting with the consensus, the geth specifically create a backup plan where enough programs are hidden and shielded to ensure survival. This division goes against typical geth thinking (as any division would) but in a learned behavior from organics they so anyway because it's not likely to be predicted by their enemies.
• Possibility two point five: If the Ark is created as a contingency before/ during the war the organics behind it could review/ be made aware of Shepard's interactions with Legion and reach out to the geth themselves, convincing them of the benefits of the backup plan.
• Possibility three: Rogue Ceberus cell (lol) uses Overlord data to hijack enough geth to again get to safe space. Control fails as they don't have David Archer or equivalent, they're out of the picture and the geth are on their own.
• Possibility four: Group of quarian exiles  again reach out to geth, get to safe space etc etc.  I could go on.
• Just because I can't resist: recreated geth. The individual programs are simple, likely quite easy to reproduce. Let'em network, they'll do the rest on their own. Could be interesting to see what they think of their predecessor consensus.
• Even though the Reapers were mechanical, it was never portrayed as synthetic vs organic until ME3. The Reapers had the Lovecraftian bend till then. Even the giant Terminator at the end of ME2 was tied to organic reproduction imagery, not machine. So I say that even though you could go back and apply the theme, it was never front and center until the "art" happened.

[dreamgazer]

Yeah, I'm not taking the nuances of MP to be canon, only the very broad strokes. There's a lot of funky bullshit to account for otherwise.

[KaiserShep]

No, the entire MP is canon as in actual battles. There are even NPCs referring to events in the MP as being actual missions in the Citadel DLC. 

 

The Geth we fight in MP are the Heretics who remain loyal to the Reapers. The Collectors are explained to be ones that remained in Dark Space on Black Arks until the Reapers brought them in. 

 

I don't mind MP being a broken free-for-all, since going solo gives me total control of who fights where, but the fact that it seeped into singleplayer through the Citadel DLC is always a tad irksome. At the very least, I can avoid those pesky NPC's that talk about it.

[Balkankerverkoper]

From a personal view I want them both, but for consistentency with Bioware refusing to canonize the trilogy, they are better left out.

[Vazgen]

• The geth never became anthropomorphic. They became individualized after the Reaper code. "Anthropomorphic" in this context still refers to the possession of human characteristics and perspectives, which yes all races are hilariously lumped in that category, apart from the geth, the rachni, the keepers (maybe) the Thorian and the Reapers.
• Simplest way to do it? Second schism. After the heretics were destroyed or controlled a third faction within the geth began analyzing the Old Machines and concluded that the probability of defeat was too high. They came to a different conclusion, namely to hide and shield themselves from the Reapers and their tools (the relays) until the harvest is over. They were either discovered by the Ark creators or made their own way to Andromeda and we encounter them there.
• Possibility two: Same actions as above but instead of parting with the consensus, the geth specifically create a backup plan where enough programs are hidden and shielded to ensure survival. This division goes against typical geth thinking (as any division would) but in a learned behavior from organics they so anyway because it's not likely to be predicted by their enemies.
• Possibility two point five: If the Ark is created as a contingency before/ during the war the organics behind it could review/ be made aware of Shepard's interactions with Legion and reach out to the geth themselves, convincing them of the benefits of the backup plan.
• Possibility three: Rogue Ceberus cell (lol) uses Overlord data to hijack enough geth to again get to safe space. Control fails as they don't have David Archer or equivalent, they're out of the picture and the geth are on their own.
• Possibility four: Group of quarian exiles  again reach out to geth, get to safe space etc etc.  I could go on.
• Just because I can't resist: recreated geth. The individual programs are simple, likely quite easy to reproduce. Let'em network, they'll do the rest on their own. Could be interesting to see what they think of their predecessor consensus.
• Even though the Reapers were mechanical, it was never portrayed as synthetic vs organic until ME3. The Reapers had the Lovecraftian bend till then. Even the giant Terminator at the end of ME2 was tied to organic reproduction imagery, not machine. So I say that even though you could go back and apply the theme, it was never front and center until the "art" happened.

 

• Oh, I see. In this case, aren't lying, gratitude, anger, N7 armor peace, interest, the concept of soul, human characteristics? Because the geth showed all of these.

1. Third faction, geth traveling to Andromeda (why would they do that if they can simply hide in dark space?), geth being discovered (you won't discover the heretic station without Legion)
2. Quarian attack was a surprise. The geth did not expect it. Having a pocket of geth hiding to ensure survival undermines that. 
3. Requires that group to be on Cerberus/Shadow Broker level of information trade, requires contacting the geth which always resulted in hostilities. Geth are presented as the initiators of conversation, they specifically send only one platform to Council Space to minimize organic involvement. Nobody also knows where they hide, so contacting them is problematic. And even if they did, it would mean that the races of the galaxy will endanger their top secret project based on Shepard's conversations with one geth unit.
4. Why do they need the geth to get to the safe space? 
5. Same problem as 3. Even without it, you assume that those quarian exiles form an organized group, have enough funding to send a ship into a safe space, know about the Reaper threat to do so.
6. Only the quarians know how to build geth. And I doubt they'll do it. But yes, this is the least of ass pulls. Still, not really minor to me.

• It depends on player's perception. I got the synthetic vs organic theme, writers (Drew Karpyshyn, in particular) intended that theme to be central to the trilogy. It was not introduced in ME3 and not brought to front for the first time in that game.

[Sion1138]

 

It depends on player's perception. I got the synthetic vs organic theme, writers (Drew Karpyshyn, in particular) intended that theme to be central to the trilogy. It was not introduced in ME3 and not brought to front for the first time in that game.

 

 

 

I didn't get the "versus" part until ME3.

 

An exploration of the subject certainly, but no unresolvable eternal conflict or anything of the sort, until ME3.

 

Yes you were fighting the geth, but you were also fighting a lot of other groups and to me they all seemed to be on the same level.