193 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimdall]

I'm personally rather disinterested in continuing the story of the Geth. I felt they reached the logical conclusion of their story arc in ME3 and they don't need any more than that. Quarians too. Now, if we're talking about exiles with very different values from the Migrant fleet, that might be interesting to explore, especially if their values lead to the creation of new AI.

Oh, and Vazgen is right, the Geth and EDI were both highly anthrpomorphized in ME3. Rather disappointing really. Rather than explore AI as a new and different form of life, they got stuck with a Pinocchio complex.

[Vazgen]

I didn't get the "versus" part until ME3.

 

An exploration of the subject certainly, but no unresolvable eternal conflict or anything of the sort, until ME3.

 

Yes you were fighting the geth, but you were also fighting a lot of other groups and to me they all seemed to be on the same level.

I'd say it had more exposure than other conflicts. 

 

ME1 - Rogue AI on Presidium (that explicitly states that organics must destroy synthetics), Rogue VI on Luna, geth 

ME2 - Rogue VI (mech infection), geth, Overlord DLC

 

Problem here is that most of those are optional and players might miss those. If you look purely at the main story we get - geth, Collectors, Reapers/Cerberus.

[Heimdall]

I'd say it had more exposure than other conflicts. 
 
ME1 - Rogue AI on Presidium (that explicitly states that organics must destroy synthetics), Rogue VI on Luna, geth 
ME2 - Rogue VI (mech infection), geth, Overlord DLC
 
Problem here is that most of those are optional and players might miss those. If you look purely at the main story we get - geth, Collectors, Reapers/Cerberus.

The rift between organics and synthetics was definitely present throughout the trilogy, but like you say it usually got relegated to a side plot, usually folded into the Geth/Quarian conflict somehow. That's why the Rannoch storyline in ME3 felt like the conclusion of that conflict. The problem is that in the end the issue gets catapulted to the front to say "Nope, this conflict has been the driving force behind the trilogy this whole time." It was jarring.

[Vazgen]

The rift between organics and synthetics was definitely present throughout the trilogy, but like you say it usually got relegated to a side plot, usually folded into the Geth/Quarian conflict somehow. That's why the Rannoch storyline in ME3 felt like the conclusion of that conflict. The problem is that in the end the issue gets catapulted to the front to say "Nope, this conflict has been the driving force behind the trilogy this whole time." It was jarring.

Yes, it was a failure of execution on their part. You really had to be a completionist and pay constant close attention to the games for the end not to feel disconnected.

We knew we wanted to focus on some key themes and bring in certain key elements: organics vs synthetics; the Reapers; the Mass Relays. Beyond that, we didn’t go into detail because we knew it would change radically as the game continued to evolve.

Drew Karpyshyn

[Heimdall]

Yes, it was a failure of execution on their part. You really had to be a completionist and pay constant close attention to the games for the end not to feel disconnected.

We knew we wanted to focus on some key themes and bring in certain key elements: organics vs synthetics; the Reapers; the Mass Relays. Beyond that, we didn’t go into detail because we knew it would change radically as the game continued to evolve.

Drew Karpyshyn

I think the overall problem is that they really needed to nail down what the Reapers were actually trying to accomplish much sooner.  I don't mean they needed to reveal it to the player, but it seems clear that the developers didn't have the Reapers' motivation set in stone until ME3.  That's the root flaw of the trilogy in my book.  Deficient pre-planning.  That's why the series' themes feel so confused and probably why ME2 had such a tangential main plot.

[ZoliCs]

I felt they reached the logical conclusion of their story arc in ME3 and they don't need any more than that. Quarians too. 

So did the Krogan. You don't want them either?

[Heimdall]

So did the Krogan. You don't want them either?

The story of the Krogan and the genophage may or may not be resolved, that in and of itself makes me hesitant about their inclusion, but a Krogan character can still be interesting either way, as a character.  The Geth story as artificial life and their conflict with their creators has reached a definite conclusion either way.  And honestly, what made the Geth interesting was their unique perspective and non-individual nature.  Them now being individualized and thoroughly anthropomorphized, I've more or less lost my interest.

[ZoliCs]

The story of the Krogan and the genophage may or may not be resolved, that in and of itself makes me hesitant about their inclusion, but a Krogan character can still be interesting either way, as a character.  The Geth story as artificial life and their conflict with their creators has reached a definite conclusion either way.  And honestly, what made the Geth interesting was their unique perspective and non-individual nature.  Them now being individualized and thoroughly anthropomorphized, I've more or less lost my interest.

 

I just don't understand this. Why does it matter that the Geth lore (and the the Krogan, unless you want to cure the Genophage again) is over? Why could they make an interesting Krogan character in your opinion, and humans since we always have humans, but not a Geth?

[Quarian Master Race]

The story of the Krogan and the genophage may or may not be resolved, that in and of itself makes me hesitant about their inclusion, but a Krogan character can still be interesting either way, as a character.  The Geth story as artificial life and their conflict with their creators has reached a definite conclusion either way.  And honestly, what made the Geth interesting was their unique perspective and non-individual nature.  Them now being individualized and thoroughly anthropomorphized, I've more or less lost my interest.

I don't disagree. I see little potential for any more compelling individual characters from the geth simply due to their nature (its why we only got two in total anyway), but none of that applies to potential quarian characters any more than it would for krogan. Moreover, why does it matter that a previous conflict that the geth/quarians had was resolved. Should WW2 not have happened because of WW1? Why do they have to be defined by organic/synthetic crap at all instead of just being unique species in their own right just as the Council races are? 

I really don't get why anyone would wan't to delete species that  we have already spent so much time and exposition building up the lore for. Since everyone seems to be discussing the ark theory rumours as if they are fact, the quarians have more right to be involved than pretty much any other species in the setting. 

Frankly, even if they deleted the geth I'd be disappointed, because running away from the previous story is cowardly IMO. You made that narrative, now own it. Ark theory is just the most uninspired nonsense they could have come up with specifically for reasons such as this.

[Heimdall]

I don't disagree. I see little potential for any more compelling individual characters from the geth simply due to their nature (its why we only got two in total anyway), but none of that applies to potential quarian characters any more than it would for krogan. Moreover, why does it matter that a previous conflict that the geth/quarians had was resolved. Should WW2 not have happened because of WW1? Why do they have to be defined by organic/synthetic crap at all instead of just being unique species in their own right just as the Council races are? 

I really don't get why anyone would wan't to delete species that  we have already spent so much time and exposition building up the lore for. Since everyone seems to be discussing the ark theory rumours as if they are fact, the quarians have more right to be involved than pretty much any other species in the setting. 

Frankly, even if they deleted the geth I'd be disappointed, because running away from the previous story is cowardly IMO. You made that narrative, now own it. Ark theory is just the most uninspired nonsense they could have come up with specifically for reasons such as this.

There's no reasons Krogan or Quarians would have to be left behind in Ark Theory, so whatever.

[ZoliCs]

There's no reasons Krogan or Quarians would have to be left behind in Ark Theory, so whatever.

There's no reason to leave anything behind.

[CrutchCricket]

 

• Oh, I see. In this case, aren't lying, gratitude, anger, N7 armor peace, interest, the concept of soul, human characteristics? Because the geth showed all of these.

1. Third faction, geth traveling to Andromeda (why would they do that if they can simply hide in dark space?), geth being discovered (you won't discover the heretic station without Legion)
2. Quarian attack was a surprise. The geth did not expect it. Having a pocket of geth hiding to ensure survival undermines that. 
3. Requires that group to be on Cerberus/Shadow Broker level of information trade, requires contacting the geth which always resulted in hostilities. Geth are presented as the initiators of conversation, they specifically send only one platform to Council Space to minimize organic involvement. Nobody also knows where they hide, so contacting them is problematic. And even if they did, it would mean that the races of the galaxy will endanger their top secret project based on Shepard's conversations with one geth unit.
4. Why do they need the geth to get to the safe space? 
5. Same problem as 3. Even without it, you assume that those quarian exiles form an organized group, have enough funding to send a ship into a safe space, know about the Reaper threat to do so.
6. Only the quarians know how to build geth. And I doubt they'll do it. But yes, this is the least of ass pulls. Still, not really minor to me.

• It depends on player's perception. I got the synthetic vs organic theme, writers (Drew Karpyshyn, in particular) intended that theme to be central to the trilogy. It was not introduced in ME3 and not brought to front for the first time in that game.

 

I've already dealt with lying, or deception as it were. The emotional responses could've been emulated, not genuine. "There was a hole" (honestly this has already be decried as dumb even in ME2. But it could be intepreted as an attempt to keep organics from shooting first). Interest? Really? Come on, man. And "soul" is just a word signifying a belief in duality or perhaps a more simple belief that we are more than the sum of our parts- something that would appeal to the consensus I think.

1. I don't follow on the bit about the heretics. As to why they would travel to Andromeda, resources? Geth can't make something from nothing and there is nothing in dark space. As to why not return to the Milky Way, probably for the same reason they isolated themselves to begin with. They prefer not to be interfered with. Hiding from from the Reapers is a temporary solution not a parmanent one.
2. God forbid we undermine the quarians. But this isn't about them. A portion of the consensus could've come to the conclusion that victory against Reapers does not have an acceptable probability of occuring. Everyone else is whining about how it can't be done. Why not them?
3. Not really. Overlord was a simple cell it wasn't on Cerberus' level on the whole, and nowhere near the Shadow Broker's. Also unrelated, but Brooks and Cat6 were able to pull some **** without being on those levels and trapping Shepard on the Citadel is much more difficult. And if they are able to reproduce Overlord signal, even for a time, geth response is meaningless. They would be controlled for however long the system held. Finally, who says it's True Geth that get controlled? It could be leftover heretic platforms on some backwater planet somewhere.
4. Contingency plan?
5. Everyone and their mother seems to know about Shepard. The exiles could believe him about the Reapers. They would deduce Sovereign wasn't geth just like Tali did, and thus the alternative must be true.
6. Yes I mean quarians rebuild them. And I could see them doing it, particularly those like Zal'Koris who genuinely want peace. Even in cases where the geth get destroyed over Rannoch, some quarians may want to rebuild them to atone for wiping them out. Or if we go darker, maybe Xen wants her slaves back. She would try to prevent the geth from networking and regaining their intelligence of course, but maybe she fails (or is sabotaged by the above other group)

Intentions aside, it was not as prominent until the "art" came along.

[CrutchCricket]

I don't disagree. I see little potential for any more compelling individual characters from the geth simply due to their nature (its why we only got two in total anyway), but none of that applies to potential quarian characters any more than it would for krogan. Moreover, why does it matter that a previous conflict that the geth/quarians had was resolved. Should WW2 not have happened because of WW1? Why do they have to be defined by organic/synthetic crap at all instead of just being unique species in their own right just as the Council races are?

Why couldn't you get an interesting geth character or multiple ones for that matter. You have individual consciousnesses emerging from from a consensus rather suddenly. I definitely want to hear about what that's like. Furthermore remember how shocked Legion was at how different the heretics got? Well imagine that x ever single platform.

 

There's still plenty of potential.

[Heimdall]

I just don't understand this. Why does it matter that the Geth lore (and the the Krogan, unless you want to cure the Genophage again) is over? Why could they make an interesting Krogan character in your opinion, and humans since we always have humans, but not a Geth?

Because the Geth have always had a story arc.  They were made, they rebelled, they were destroyed/destroyed/reconciled with their creators.  That might not have done it, but then they decided to make Geth individual AI and further anthropomorphize them.  Not only is the primary conflict of Geth existence resolved, they've lost just about everything that made them interesting and different from organic species.  So the reason I don't think they could make an interesting Geth character is precisely because it would be little different than having another human character.  There's no point unless you want to follow them further down the Pinocchio route, which I don't.

 

Krogan however have always had strong individual characterization formed through their history of being used by other species and the aggressive competitive nature of their culture.  There's no reason you can't get more interesting and varied characters from that, genophage or not.

[Quarian Master Race]

Why couldn't you get an interesting geth character or multiple ones for that matter. You have individual consciousnesses emerging from from a consensus rather suddenly. I definitely want to hear about what that's like. Furthermore remember how shocked Legion was at how different the heretics got? Well imagine that x ever single platform.

 

There's still plenty of potential.

It's merely my opinion, due to the way beings within a collective consciousness work. I didn't even find Legion particularly compelling. As an avatar of the geth consensus and its perspectives, sure, it was interesting as an exposition device (ala how lots of people see ME1 Tali's conversations), but Legion itself didn't have much of an independent personality. It only differed from the Geth VI in perspectives it acquired through its personal experiences with Shepard and crew. I didn't find the character particularly interesting in and of itself, and I see little potential for anything much different within the confines of a geth character, but of course plenty of other people people did and do.

As for the potentialities post Reaper code, well I can't really begin to speculate. Frankly, I don't even know how it is supposed to work because it isn't elucidated at all. Did the 1,183 individual programs within Legion all become full individuals, or did all but one of them just cease to exist or subverted the others? How does the increase in processing power fundamentally change how the geth work as networked beings anyway, other than a proportional increase in efficiency and speed of operation? Will they even choose to use the post upgrade geth in a potential future apperance, etc?

[Heimdall]

As for the potentialities post Reaper code, well I can't really begin to speculate. Frankly, I don't even know how it is supposed to work because it isn't elucidated at all. Did the 1,183 individual programs within Legion all become full individuals, or did all but one of them just cease to exist or subverted the others? How does the increase in processing power fundamentally change how the geth work as networked beings anyway, other than a proportional increase in efficiency and speed of operation? Will they even choose to use the post upgrade geth in a potential future apperance, etc?

I doubt the writers thought that through to be honest.  I thought it was kinda stupid.

 

If they did a follow through, I expect they would just start treating the Geth like EDI,

[ZoliCs]

Because the Geth have always had a story arc.  They were made, they rebelled, they were destroyed/destroyed/reconciled with their creators.  That might not have done it, but then they decided to make Geth individual AI and further anthropomorphize them.  Not only is the primary conflict of Geth existence resolved, they've lost just about everything that made them interesting and different from organic species.  So the reason I don't think they could make an interesting Geth character is precisely because it would be little different than having another human character.  There's no point unless you want to follow them further down the Pinocchio route, which I don't.

 

Krogan however have always had strong individual characterization formed through their history of being used by other species and the aggressive competitive nature of their culture.  There's no reason you can't get more interesting and varied characters from that, genophage or not.

 

So nothing objective? Okay.

 

Most (or some at least) of the fans love the Geth whether or not you think they'd make an interesting character. And I strongly disagree with some of your points. Only because they are human like they can't be interesting or there's no point? I guess we shouldn't have any human companion from now on then.

[Golden_Persona]

Too be fair, Synthetics vs Organics, their differences and conflict, was a central point to ME1. Saren is basically the poster boy for everyone's most despised ending, yet we praise him for being a good villain (who much like Ganondorf spends most of his time in his "castle" while his goonies do all the work). It was a theme of the game, along with the rising of the underdogs, proving one's worth to a community, xenophobia etc. 2/3 games are heavily focused on organics vs synthetics so I fail to see how people think it doesn't fit it. Even ME2 indulges in on it with the Collector's. A once proud organics species dominated by a race of organic- machine hybrids, having most of their organic parts, their "soul", replaced by tech, which leads into Legion's questions of whether the Geth have souls.

 

The issue with ME2 is that, while being a masterpiece in my eyes, it focuses on so many issues that plague the galaxy all at once, basically one theme for each character you recruit. It seems like ME2 made the universe a little too rich for Bioware's own good. While Bioware clearly all along wanted to focus on a couple huge issues, ME2 focuses on a large amount of smaller issues in the grand scheme of things. That carries all the way until ME3's genophage arc, an arc that only occured out of neccesity to stop the Reapers, an enemy central to the organics vs synthetics theme.

 

It's always been there, so how people can say it doesn't exist is beyond me. My personal beef with it is why Bioware decided to go for a theme that has already been done to death. Dark Energy didn't make much sense during its conception phase, but at least it was unique.

[Vazgen]

I've already dealt with lying, or deception as it were. The emotional responses could've been emulated, not genuine. "There was a hole" (honestly this has already be decried as dumb even in ME2. But it could be intepreted as an attempt to keep organics from shooting first). Interest? Really? Come on, man. And "soul" is just a word signifying a belief in duality or perhaps a more simple belief that we are more than the sum of our parts- something that would appeal to the consensus I think.

1. I don't follow on the bit about the heretics. As to why they would travel to Andromeda, resources? Geth can't make something from nothing and there is nothing in dark space. As to why not return to the Milky Way, probably for the same reason they isolated themselves to begin with. They prefer not to be interfered with. Hiding from from the Reapers is a temporary solution not a parmanent one.
2. God forbid we undermine the quarians. But this isn't about them. A portion of the consensus could've come to the conclusion that victory against Reapers does not have an acceptable probability of occuring. Everyone else is whining about how it can't be done. Why not them?
3. Not really. Overlord was a simple cell it wasn't on Cerberus' level on the whole, and nowhere near the Shadow Broker's. Also unrelated, but Brooks and Cat6 were able to pull some **** without being on those levels and trapping Shepard on the Citadel is much more difficult. And if they are able to reproduce Overlord signal, even for a time, geth response is meaningless. They would be controlled for however long the system held. Finally, who says it's True Geth that get controlled? It could be leftover heretic platforms on some backwater planet somewhere.
4. Contingency plan?
5. Everyone and their mother seems to know about Shepard. The exiles could believe him about the Reapers. They would deduce Sovereign wasn't geth just like Tali did, and thus the alternative must be true.
6. Yes I mean quarians rebuild them. And I could see them doing it, particularly those like Zal'Koris who genuinely want peace. Even in cases where the geth get destroyed over Rannoch, some quarians may want to rebuild them to atone for wiping them out. Or if we go darker, maybe Xen wants her slaves back. She would try to prevent the geth from networking and regaining their intelligence of course, but maybe she fails (or is sabotaged by the above other group)

Intentions aside, it was not as prominent until the "art" came along.

Uhm, no, you did not. You showed that the geth were lying before ME3, cool. But you did not show how lying and deception are not human characteristics when applied to the geth. Emulated or genuine is irrelevant for this discussion. We are not arguing about the geth being anthropomorphic as they are, we are talking about their portrayal in the game. They are portrayed with human characteristics, even if those characteristics are formed differently from humans.

1. The point is, the geth won't be discovered unless they want to. The heretic station was removed from star charts for almost two centuries and could've stayed hidden for much longer. If their aim is to wait till the harvest is over, the only thing they need is fuel, which they could have plenty (considering that they had enough for a huge fleet). 
2. Weren't you talking about that split being a preparation for organic attack? If you refer to disconnecting a part of the consensus in an attempt to preserve it - this is not the geth we are talking about. They would never do that.
3. Brooks had access to Cerberus resources and had the clone to pass security checks. This is not about her though. This is about information of Shepard's dealings with Legion (which could not even occur - not activating it in ME2). That group has to know enough to conclude that the geth were not interested in hostilities and knew about the Reaper threat, which is not something known to the general public. Anderson perceives Legion as a battle trophy, Ash/Kaidan have no idea about Legion when they meet it on the dreadnought. These people should have more information than that group, no? Unless... Cerberus/Shadow Broker level.
4. What do you mean? I'm asking why would a rogue Cerberus cell need the geth to get to the safe space?
5. Just because something isn't true doesn't mean the other option is. Billion year old space Cthulhus are not a compelling tale, especially since there is no evidence to support that claim. And don't forget that the Reaper version is not known to general public. And to top it all off, that group still needs to come together and have enough resources to build those ships and contact the geth.
6. Zal'Koris wanted a peace with already created geth. Xen wanted to return them under the control of their rightful masters. Neither wanted to create more geth and both posthumously exile Tali's father for creating new geth. I just don't see a quarian creating new geth before Rannoch peace. After that, maybe, the usefulness of the geth would probably override caution for some quarians but we can't have it after the Rannoch peace because that peace might not happen at all.

Sure, we can agree on that. You seem to use the word "art" as a form of mockery or I'm just imagining things?

[CrutchCricket]

It's merely my opinion, due to the way beings within a collective consciousness work. I didn't even find Legion particularly compelling. As an avatar of the geth consensus and its perspectives, sure, it was interesting as an exposition device (ala how lots of people see ME1 Tali's conversations), but Legion itself didn't have much of an independent personality. It only differed from the Geth VI in perspectives it acquired through its personal experiences with Shepard and crew. I didn't find the character particularly interesting in and of itself, and I see little potential for anything much different within the confines of a geth character, but of course plenty of other people people did and do.

As for the potentialities post Reaper code, well I can't really begin to speculate. Frankly, I don't even know how it is supposed to work because it isn't elucidated at all. Did the 1,183 individual programs within Legion all become full individuals, or did all but one of them just cease to exist or subverted the others? How does the increase in processing power fundamentally change how the geth work as networked beings anyway, other than a proportional increase in efficiency and speed of operation? Will they even choose to use the post upgrade geth in a potential future apperance, etc?

I think that was the point, that Legion wouldn't have much of a personality with the geth being just the consensus and all. It would begin to form one based on its experiences. Perhaps they didn't fully develop that. And in ME3 they did that more with EDI of course. But she already had a personality so it's a bit of a waste.

 

Regardless the questions you asked are all valid and if I'm still here for the new game, I wouldn't mind seeing them answered.

 

Uhm, no, you did not. You showed that the geth were lying before ME3, cool. But you did not show how lying and deception are not human characteristics when applied to the geth. Emulated or genuine is irrelevant for this discussion. We are not arguing about the geth being anthropomorphic as they are, we are talking about their portrayal in the game. They are portrayed with human characteristics, even if those characteristics are formed differently from humans.

1. The point is, the geth won't be discovered unless they want to. The heretic station was removed from star charts for almost two centuries and could've stayed hidden for much longer. If their aim is to wait till the harvest is over, the only thing they need is fuel, which they could have plenty (considering that they had enough for a huge fleet). 
2. Weren't you talking about that split being a preparation for organic attack? If you refer to disconnecting a part of the consensus in an attempt to preserve it - this is not the geth we are talking about. They would never do that.
3. Brooks had access to Cerberus resources and had the clone to pass security checks. This is not about her though. This is about information of Shepard's dealings with Legion (which could not even occur - not activating it in ME2). That group has to know enough to conclude that the geth were not interested in hostilities and knew about the Reaper threat, which is not something known to the general public. Anderson perceives Legion as a battle trophy, Ash/Kaidan have no idea about Legion when they meet it on the dreadnought. These people should have more information than that group, no? Unless... Cerberus/Shadow Broker level.
4. What do you mean? I'm asking why would a rogue Cerberus cell need the geth to get to the safe space?
5. Just because something isn't true doesn't mean the other option is. Billion year old space Cthulhus are not a compelling tale, especially since there is no evidence to support that claim. And don't forget that the Reaper version is not known to general public. And to top it all off, that group still needs to come together and have enough resources to build those ships and contact the geth.
6. Zal'Koris wanted a peace with already created geth. Xen wanted to return them under the control of their rightful masters. Neither wanted to create more geth and both posthumously exile Tali's father for creating new geth. I just don't see a quarian creating new geth before Rannoch peace. After that, maybe, the usefulness of the geth would probably override caution for some quarians but we can't have it after the Rannoch peace because that peace might not happen at all.

Sure, we can agree on that. You seem to use the word "art" as a form of mockery or I'm just imagining things?

Deception is not a fundamental human characteristic any more than individualism is. I thought that was self-evident. And I don't know what you're arguing but I am arguing how the geth are, from a lore and logic perspective. Surely you didn't think I'd include the obvious emotional manipulation that went into their portrayal as relevant in-universe information, did you? Said forced emotional skewing was done to tug the player towards peace (or even geth backing) and it was a typical Bioware overcompensation after 2.5 games of geth being Acceptable Targets. And not entirely unjustifiable since a great deal of players will make decisions based on "the feels" rather than logic or reason.

 

1. Funny, they got "discovered" in ME3 easily enough.
2. I never specified organic attack. I did specify splitting precisely because it would be unexpected from geth. Also backing up is only logical.
3. Brooks was a "rogue cell". The hypothetical rogue cell I'm talking about is the same. Neither is as powerful or commands as many resources as the full Cerberus organization or the Shadow Broker.
4. Labor and defense? A rogue cell isn't likely to have a ton of manpower
5. Make one of the exiles a (former) friend of Tali. There's enough connection to get the full story and to have more details on how non-geth Sovereign really is. As for ships and such, steal them? We meet an exile or two in the books. They're not exactly saints.
6. The issue was creating new geth while they were still vulnerable (i.e. as the Migrant Fleet). This option would more likely happen after Ranoch. And it doesn't have to be only under peace. Koris and Xen's views don't change throughout the war. Both could be seen as regretting the geth's destruction though for different reasons. Both could also be seen undoing that destruction, again for different reasons. Or tie this into 5 and have exiles create more geth because they share Koris' view and believe new geth without the history of the Morning War may be able to bridge the gap between quarians and existing geth. I might like this better actually, though involving the aforementioned Admirals is appealing to me as well.

Certainly. Art in general still has value. Bioware's so called "art" does not. Mockery is an excellent word for it. I make the distinction for clarity and to not besmirch the former with the latter.

[Vazgen]

Deception is not a fundamental human characteristic any more than individualism is. I thought that was self-evident. And I don't know what you're arguing but I am arguing how the geth are, from a lore and logic perspective. Surely you didn't think I'd include the obvious emotional manipulation that went into their portrayal as relevant in-universe information, did you? Said forced emotional skewing was done to tug the player towards peace (or even geth backing) and it was a typical Bioware overcompensation after 2.5 games of geth being Acceptable Targets. And not entirely unjustifiable since a great deal of players will make decisions based on "the feels" rather than logic or reason.

1. Funny, they got "discovered" in ME3 easily enough.
2. I never specified organic attack. I did specify splitting precisely because it would be unexpected from geth. Also backing up is only logical.
3. Brooks was a "rogue cell". The hypothetical rogue cell I'm talking about is the same. Neither is as powerful or commands as many resources as the full Cerberus organization or the Shadow Broker.
4. Labor and defense? A rogue cell isn't likely to have a ton of manpower
5. Make one of the exiles a (former) friend of Tali. There's enough connection to get the full story and to have more details on how non-geth Sovereign really is. As for ships and such, steal them? We meet an exile or two in the books. They're not exactly saints.
6. The issue was creating new geth while they were still vulnerable (i.e. as the Migrant Fleet). This option would more likely happen after Ranoch. And it doesn't have to be only under peace. Koris and Xen's views don't change throughout the war. Both could be seen as regretting the geth's destruction though for different reasons. Both could also be seen undoing that destruction, again for different reasons. Or tie this into 5 and have exiles create more geth because they share Koris' view and believe new geth without the history of the Morning War may be able to bridge the gap between quarians and existing geth. I might like this better actually, though involving the aforementioned Admirals is appealing to me as well.

Certainly. Art in general still has value. Bioware's so called "art" does not. Mockery is an excellent word for it. I make the distinction for clarity and to not besmirch the former with the latter.

Whether you like it or not, that emotional manipulation is part of the lore now. You dismissing it won't change the way the geth were portrayed.

1. Yeah, because they made no effort to hide. 
2. It's not about expectations, it's about splitting consensus. It's like locking part of the parliament away and making decisions on the county's future without consulting them (even more pronounced in case of the geth who get more intelligent with more programs linked).
3. I never said she had their resources. I said that she had access to information on a similar level, at least on the subject of Shepard.
4. Mechs are cheaper and less dangerous.
5. Now we have an unknown friend of Tali? Nice... And we're talking about ships capable of intergalactic journey (or specifically constructed to wait until the Reapers leave). They are not lying around, you know.
6. Really? So the Quarians spend centuries as nomads, fight a devastating war and finally reclaim their homeworld only to create the enemy again? I certainly don't consider it a minor ass pull.

Mass Effect series have value for many people. Just that they do not for you doesn't give you the right to undermine the work Bioware put in the series and those people's experiences with mockery. On their forums I might add.

[CrutchCricket]

Whether you like it or not, that emotional manipulation is part of the lore now. You dismissing it won't change the way the geth were portrayed.

1. Yeah, because they made no effort to hide. 
2. It's not about expectations, it's about splitting consensus. It's like locking part of the parliament away and making decisions on the county's future without consulting them (even more pronounced in case of the geth who get more intelligent with more programs linked).
3. I never said she had their resources. I said that she had access to information on a similar level, at least on the subject of Shepard.
4. Mechs are cheaper and less dangerous.
5. Now we have an unknown friend of Tali? Nice... And we're talking about ships capable of intergalactic journey (or specifically constructed to wait until the Reapers leave). They are not lying around, you know.
6. Really? So the Quarians spend centuries as nomads, fight a devastating war and finally reclaim their homeworld only to create the enemy again? I certainly don't consider it a minor ass pull.

Mass Effect series have value for many people. Just that they do not for you doesn't give you the right to undermine the work Bioware put in the series and those people's experiences with mockery. On their forums I might add.

There is a level of segregation between presentation and in-universe fact. For example, Kai Leng is a serious threat in-universe, and is not just a twirling fairy.

 

1. So your argument is... they wanted to be attacked?
2. Who said they cut all contact? Going by the principles of backing up, you'd want the most up to date backup you can manage.
3. I don't really remember what this point is about.
4. Because Cerberus rogue cells always do the safe sensible thing.
5. Sure why not? Squeezing in an individual character is far easier than doing so for a whole faction. And no, we're only talking about ships to get to the geth. Intergalactic ships can be developed after contact is made.
6. To a number of them the geth were proven to not be enemies. To others they were runaway slaves.

Bioware undermined its own work with their "art". Not my fault, I'm just calling it like it is. And in case it was unclear "art" is only the last five min of ME3. I've said several times that it's a testament to the strength of the franchise that it still nets a good, maybe even great rating despite every single thing about it being ruined by the endings.

[Vazgen]

There is a level of segregation between presentation and in-universe fact. For example, Kai Leng is a serious threat in-universe, and is not just a twirling fairy.

1. So your argument is... they wanted to be attacked?
2. Who said they cut all contact? Going by the principles of backing up, you'd want the most up to date backup you can manage.
3. I don't really remember what this point is about.
4. Because Cerberus rogue cells always do the safe sensible thing.
5. Sure why not? Squeezing in an individual character is far easier than doing so for a whole faction. And no, we're only talking about ships to get to the geth. Intergalactic ships can be developed after contact is made.
6. To a number of them the geth were proven to not be enemies. To others they were runaway slaves.

Bioware undermined its own work with their "art". Not my fault, I'm just calling it like it is. And in case it was unclear "art" is only the last five min of ME3. I've said several times that it's a testament to the strength of the franchise that it still nets a good, maybe even great rating despite every single thing about it being ruined by the endings.

We are talking about writing here, not gameplay. Kai Leng is still presented as a threat even if gameplay-wise he is not a threat at all. Geth, on the other hand are written that way.

1. No, just that they didn't expect an attack. Something that is reinforced in the game.
2. Because of the very reason of making the backup. If there is a connection between that backup and general consensus, it is possible to trace the backup via that connection. 
3. About organics knowing of Shepard's interactions with the Legion and contacting the geth asking them to join the ark.
4. Basing geth implementation on Cerberus stupidity? OK...
5. So after Sovereign attacks the Ciadel with a geth army a group of quarian exiles deduces that Sovereign is not a geth creation, Tali's friend tells them a wild tale about the Reapers and they steal ships to contacts the geth to escape their doom? Is that correct? Because there is nothing to indicate that the geth won't kill them on sight and nothing to indicate that they have any idea on how to contact the geth.
6. To whom did they prove that they are anything but hostile? The geth are hostile to the rest of the galaxy up until Shepard yells on the admirals to stop firing. Before that the only known example of geth working with organics is Legion (which might not happen at all depending on player choices). Oh, of course, Geth VI is so trustworthy...

It is your fault. You don't like the endings, fine. There are plenty of people who do, myself included. Your claims that the last five minutes of ME3 "ruined" certain parts of the series (or even the series as whole, as some people say) are nothing more than your subjective opinion and your public mockery of the word "art" in relation to those five minutes is nothing more than an insult to both the developers and those people.

[Vortex13]

While I am by no means a fan of the Geth being 'humanized' in Mass Effect 3, I don't see why that reasoning would be why we don't see them in future titles. The players' choices concerning the Rannoch arc are understandable, but the Geth being too human doesn't really hold water for me, since all of the aliens in the setting, with the exception of the Rachni, the ME 2 Geth (and possibly the Hanar), are all humans in rubber suits anyway.

 

The Asari, the Krogan, the Quarians, the Salarians, etc. all had very human social structures to their societies, indeed their very civilizations were just a slight tweak on human cultures. Even your squadmates like Tali, Wrex, Garrus, Liara, Mordin, etc. could have quite easily been human companions with very little being changed concerning their respective back-stories; 'Daddy Issues' anyone?

 

That's not to say that I disliked their narratives; Garrus was my bro after all; but to disqualify the Geth based solely on their anthropomorphism doesn't make any sense, unless you were going to get rid of the other major species for the exact same reasons.

[Heimdall]

While I am by no means a fan of the Geth being 'humanized' in Mass Effect 3, I don't see why that reasoning would be why we don't see them in future titles. The players' choices concerning the Rannoch arc are understandable, but the Geth being too human doesn't really hold water for me, since all of the aliens in the setting, with the exception of the Rachni, the ME 2 Geth (and possibly the Hanar), are all humans in rubber suits anyway.
 
The Asari, the Krogan, the Quarians, the Salarians, etc. all had very human social structures to their societies, indeed their very civilizations were just a slight tweak on human cultures. Even your squadmates like Tali, Wrex, Garrus, Liara, Mordin, etc. could have quite easily been human companions with very little being changed concerning their respective back-stories; 'Daddy Issues' anyone?
 
That's not to say that I disliked their narratives; Garrus was my bro after all; but to disqualify the Geth based solely on their anthropomorphism doesn't make any sense, unless you were going to get rid of the other major species for the exact same reasons.

Its not just that, its that I can only see Bioware following the route of EDI and write yet another Pinocchio story about an AI trying to understand and be more like organics. I'm personally not interested in another story like that. I just don't see them being able to do much new and interesting with the individualized Geth.