193 réponses à ce sujet

[SpacePirateRegis]

I am sure in a future sequel to the new Mass Effect game that we will go back to the Milky Way to help rebuild, and we will see most (if not all) of the previous races again!

[CrutchCricket]

We are talking about writing here, not gameplay. Kai Leng is still presented as a threat even if gameplay-wise he is not a threat at all. Geth, on the other hand are written that way.

1. No, just that they didn't expect an attack. Something that is reinforced in the game.
2. Because of the very reason of making the backup. If there is a connection between that backup and general consensus, it is possible to trace the backup via that connection. 
3. About organics knowing of Shepard's interactions with the Legion and contacting the geth asking them to join the ark.
4. Basing geth implementation on Cerberus stupidity? OK...
5. So after Sovereign attacks the Ciadel with a geth army a group of quarian exiles deduces that Sovereign is not a geth creation, Tali's friend tells them a wild tale about the Reapers and they steal ships to contacts the geth to escape their doom? Is that correct? Because there is nothing to indicate that the geth won't kill them on sight and nothing to indicate that they have any idea on how to contact the geth.
6. To whom did they prove that they are anything but hostile? The geth are hostile to the rest of the galaxy up until Shepard yells on the admirals to stop firing. Before that the only known example of geth working with organics is Legion (which might not happen at all depending on player choices). Oh, of course, Geth VI is so trustworthy...

It is your fault. You don't like the endings, fine. There are plenty of people who do, myself included. Your claims that the last five minutes of ME3 "ruined" certain parts of the series (or even the series as whole, as some people say) are nothing more than your subjective opinion and your public mockery of the word "art" in relation to those five minutes is nothing more than an insult to both the developers and those people.

Kai Leng twirls in a cutscene. Your argument is invalid. Also his presentation was first ruined in a book, which has nothing to do with gameplay.

1. Well then they won't expect to get found this time around either.
2. Uhm, no it isn't. Geth have been hacked but their communications have never been traced.
3. Someone could tell them? Hackett perhaps? Or maybe even TIM before he goes off the deep end. This isn't a fringe group, this would be an official (if top-secret) contingency.
4. Stranger things have happened. Most failed rogue cells do things For Science!/For the Evuls. Stupidity is pretty much Cerberus' MO outside Lazarus.
5. The sending out of Legion would seem to indicate a shift in geth policy regarding organics. Sure it was sent to find Shepard but it abandoned that task after he died. There is a gap between that and going to the derelict Reaper where other contact could've occurred.
6. Take Legion to Tali's trial and it'll flat out tell them. Yes that is player choice. But Zal'Koris was arguing for peace before Legion even entered the picture. So even if "proof" is perhaps too strong a word, sympathizers clearly still exist. And while Rael'Zorah's experiments didn't include creating geth outright they were secretly backed by xen and they might've come to that if they hadn't resulted in disaster.

It's my fault the endings are a huge waste of absolutely everything that was put into this series? I don't think so. The last five minutes are the insult, to fans, to the series, to video games and to the devs themselves, as well as to the very concept of art and artistic expression, hence my quoted short form. They are, quite simply, an entertainment atrocity and may very well be one of the biggest fictional tragedies of the 21^st century, behind Disney's trashing of the Star Wars EU but ahead of Duke Nukem Forever. I could say some harsher things but I think you get my meaning.

[ZoliCs]

Its not just that, its that I can only see Bioware following the route of EDI and write yet another Pinocchio story about an AI trying to understand and be more like organics. I'm personally not interested in another story like that. I just don't see them being able to do much new and interesting with the individualized Geth.

 

Yep, they totally can't write good robots.

 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Yep, they totally can't write good robots.

 

I'm not one for evil characters, but HK-47 is a rare exception. I love that guy. 

[Heimdall]

Yep, they totally can't write good robots.
 

Star Wars droids aren't hard science fiction, they're just quirky humans mostly and 99% of the time they're played for comedic value, hence HK.

Tell me, can you imagine Geth behaving like HK?

[ZoliCs]

Star Wars droids aren't hard science fiction, they're just quirky humans mostly and 99% of the time they're played for comedic value, hence HK.

Tell me, can you imagine Geth behaving like HK?

 

Yes. Since they are so human like ,as most of you like to keep saying, they can behave however they want.

[Heimdall]

Yes. Since they are so human like ,as most of you like to keep saying, they can behave however they want.

Wrong, a Geth that goes on all day about his love of killing meatbags would be destroyed quickly in this universe and unlike HK there are no limitations on its programming requiring it to follow orders. It wouldn't make sense.

More to the point, there wouldn't be anything about it that made it Geth aside from its shell. Might as well just make a new AI.

[ZoliCs]

Wrong, a Geth that goes on all day about his love of killing meatbags would be destroyed quickly in this universe and unlike HK there are no limitations on its programming requiring it to follow orders. It wouldn't make sense.

Yeah because you know exactly what the setting in Andromeda would be. It could work. Anyway they don't have to make a carbon copy of HK to make an interesting Geth.

 

More to the point, there wouldn't be anything about it that made it Geth aside from its shell. Might as well just make a new AI.

In as much as a Krogan is just a human in rubber suit 

[Heimdall]

Yeah because you know exactly what the setting in Andromeda would be. It could work. Anyway they don't have to make a carbon copy of HK to make an interesting Geth.

We're changing settings, not franchises. Then what then? What would make a Geth character interesting that would would make it stand apart as an AI?

In as much as a Krogan is just a human in rubber suit

Point, missing it. Krogan based on tweaked and exaggerated human cultures like most of the "alien" species in mass effect. The Geth are not, they were based on the idea of a digital Gestalt consciousness, at least until ME3 turned them into Pinocchio.

[Vazgen]

Kai Leng twirls in a cutscene. Your argument is invalid. Also his presentation was first ruined in a book, which has nothing to do with gameplay.

1. Well then they won't expect to get found this time around either.
2. Uhm, no it isn't. Geth have been hacked but their communications have never been traced.
3. Someone could tell them? Hackett perhaps? Or maybe even TIM before he goes off the deep end. This isn't a fringe group, this would be an official (if top-secret) contingency.
4. Stranger things have happened. Most failed rogue cells do things For Science!/For the Evuls. Stupidity is pretty much Cerberus' MO outside Lazarus.
5. The sending out of Legion would seem to indicate a shift in geth policy regarding organics. Sure it was sent to find Shepard but it abandoned that task after he died. There is a gap between that and going to the derelict Reaper where other contact could've occurred.
6. Take Legion to Tali's trial and it'll flat out tell them. Yes that is player choice. But Zal'Koris was arguing for peace before Legion even entered the picture. So even if "proof" is perhaps too strong a word, sympathizers clearly still exist. And while Rael'Zorah's experiments didn't include creating geth outright they were secretly backed by xen and they might've come to that if they hadn't resulted in disaster.

It's my fault the endings are a huge waste of absolutely everything that was put into this series? I don't think so. The last five minutes are the insult, to fans, to the series, to video games and to the devs themselves, as well as to the very concept of art and artistic expression, hence my quoted short form. They are, quite simply, an entertainment atrocity and may very well be one of the biggest fictional tragedies of the 21^st century, behind Disney's trashing of the Star Wars EU but ahead of Duke Nukem Forever. I could say some harsher things but I think you get my meaning.

He twirls in a cutscene. So? He is clearly presented as a threat, Anderson flat out tells you that "given what they were able to do with you and Grayson, it's a safe bet that he's even more dangerous now". And he is presented as a threat in the books. 

1. Sure. But this time they make an effort to hide.
2. We are not talking about organics here, we are talking about the Reapers. The ones who managed to take control of an entire geth fleet with a single Destroyer.
3. Yeah, except Legion might not be activated at all.
4. I'd say enough is enough. I would not want to see yet another failed Cerberus experiment in ME:Next. Making up a rogue Cerberus cell with tech from Overlord project and stupid enough to get the geth as protectors is not a minor retcon IMO.
5. Legion says to Shepard that he/she is "not bound by the hardware limitations of organics. You assisted us with the heretics. You do not fear us." I'd say that implies that Shepard is the first one to make contact with the geth that didn't result in hostilities.
6. Sympathizers for peace, you mean. Not creating the geth again. People like that existed during the Morning War. After centuries of wandering and fighting the geth, do you honestly believe there will be any quarians who will recreate the geth? I certainly don't.

It's your perception that makes you to perceive them that way and it's your fault for trying to present that interpretation as objective truth. And doing so in a form of mockery does not help your case either.

[ZoliCs]

We're changing settings, not franchises. 

Exactly. I doubt even in the Terminus system they would kill a single bloodthirsty AI, let alone in a new galaxy.

A single bloodthirsty AI =/= a murderous race of synthetics planning to wipe out organics. In case you didn't notice.

Then what then? What would make a Geth character interesting that would would make it stand apart as an AI?

Anything that would make any character interesting.

+1. If the Geth just gained their individualism that's a big ****** change. Bigger than the genophage. A fertile ground to write a character.

 

In the end hat sets an Asari or Quarian charcter apart from humans beside their biology? Their history. Geth have a history last time I looked.

[Heimdall]

Exactly. I doubt even in the Terminus system they would kill a single bloodthirsty AI, let alone in a new galaxy.
A single bloodthirsty AI =/= a murderous race of synthetics planning to wipe out organics. In case you didn't notice.

In case you didn't notice, every species in the galaxy has been phobic of AI for centuries, when one of them starts going on about how fun it is to kill Organics someone's going to get twitchy and shoot it before it shoots them.

Anything that would make any character interesting.
+1. If the Geth just gained their individualism that's a big ****** change. Bigger than the genophage. A fertile ground to write a character.
 
In the end hat sets an Asari or Quarian charcter apart from humans beside their biology? Their history. Geth have a history last time I looked.

They have a history, but no culture, no traditions, everything about how their society (If you can call it that) used to work and how they interacted with one another has been rendered obsolete by the Reaper upgrades. Unfortunately the only direction I see this going is continuing the tragectory from Rannoch and making them more human rather than exploring the implications of a fundamentally different form of life.

[ZoliCs]

They have a history, but no culture, no traditions, everything about how their society (If you can call it that) used to work and how they interacted with one another has been rendered obsolete by the Reaper upgrades.

And if you really think that wouldn't make a great character then it's pointless to continue arguing.

 

One last thing. You are not the only Mass Effect fan. If you don't find the Geth interesting, tough luck. I'm sure there are others who think the same about the council races.

[ZoliCs]

In case you didn't notice, every species in the galaxy has been phobic of AI for centuries, when one of them starts going on about how fun it is to kill Organics someone's going to get twitchy and shoot it before it shoots them.

You mean like half the Batarians, Krogan, and Vorcha?

[CrutchCricket]

He twirls in a cutscene. So? He is clearly presented as a threat, Anderson flat out tells you that "given what they were able to do with you and Grayson, it's a safe bet that he's even more dangerous now". And he is presented as a threat in the books. 

1. Sure. But this time they make an effort to hide.
2. We are not talking about organics here, we are talking about the Reapers. The ones who managed to take control of an entire geth fleet with a single Destroyer.
3. Yeah, except Legion might not be activated at all.
4. I'd say enough is enough. I would not want to see yet another failed Cerberus experiment in ME:Next. Making up a rogue Cerberus cell with tech from Overlord project and stupid enough to get the geth as protectors is not a minor retcon IMO.
5. Legion says to Shepard that he/she is "not bound by the hardware limitations of organics. You assisted us with the heretics. You do not fear us." I'd say that implies that Shepard is the first one to make contact with the geth that didn't result in hostilities.
6. Sympathizers for peace, you mean. Not creating the geth again. People like that existed during the Morning War. After centuries of wandering and fighting the geth, do you honestly believe there will be any quarians who will recreate the geth? I certainly don't.

It's your perception that makes you to perceive them that way and it's your fault for trying to present that interpretation as objective truth. And doing so in a form of mockery does not help your case either.

Deception. That is all

1. ?
2. Doesn't explain how they would trace geth communications which I believe are QEC based?
3. True, but I could see the next game just assuming he is without flat out stating it. Or doing a soft retcon like the Anderson/Udina thing.
4. I wouldn't want to see that either, but it can be done and there is precedent. So yeah, it wouldn't stick out much.
5. Implies yes, but not outright states. They could work around that.
6. Sympathizers for peace necessarily believe the geth have a right to live and a right to freedom. It's not much of a stretch to believe some might take it upon themselves to "restore" them. For some it might even be a God complex. The geth are valid life and we can create them. We can create life.

Plenty of serious presentations have been done already (for all the good that did). No one, least of all me has time for another one. So I mock the mockery whenever it comes up. One should never miss the chance to point out stupidity of this magnitude.

[Vazgen]

Deception. That is all

1. ?
2. Doesn't explain how they would trace geth communications which I believe are QEC based?
3. True, but I could see the next game just assuming he is without flat out stating it. Or doing a soft retcon like the Anderson/Udina thing.
4. I wouldn't want to see that either, but it can be done and there is precedent. So yeah, it wouldn't stick out much.
5. Implies yes, but not outright states. They could work around that.
6. Sympathizers for peace necessarily believe the geth have a right to live and a right to freedom. It's not much of a stretch to believe some might take it upon themselves to "restore" them. For some it might even be a God complex. The geth are valid life and we can create them. We can create life.

Plenty of serious presentations have been done already (for all the good that did). No one, least of all me has time for another one. So I mock the mockery whenever it comes up. One should never miss the chance to point out stupidity of this magnitude.

That novel that was acknowledged as erroneous by Bioware? Yeah, OK...

1. They made no effort to hide their megastructure.
2. In the same way how they broadcasted the signal via the same QEC from one Destroyer.
3. You are assuming soft retcons like Anderson/Udina are minor? OK.
4. Won't stick out much for you. Not for me.
5. Again, not a minor addition/change IMO.
6. It is quite a stretch. It is one thing to believe that already created geth have a right to live freely and it's a whole another thing to recreate them after they were destroyed, after centuries of wandering because of the geth.

If you can't make a serious presentation, don't mock. It does not strengthen your subjective PoV, it only weakens it by presenting yourself as someone incapable of constructive analysis (which is not true in your case). Stupidity of the endings is as debatable as who was right in the geth/quarian conflict. Your comments do not point it out, all they do is show your bias and dislike of the endings. 

[Heimdall]

And if you really think that wouldn't make a great character then it's pointless to continue arguing.

 

One last thing. You are not the only Mass Effect fan. If you don't find the Geth interesting, tough luck. I'm sure there are others who think the same about the council races.

A blank slate doesn't sound like a character to me, it'd just end up copying organics and we'd be rehashing EDI's storyline all over again.

 

Well fantastic so I'm not alone in the universe /sarcasm

 

I did find the Geth interesting, until they erased everything that made them unique in an ill defined individualization process in the name of making them more human.

[ZoliCs]

A blank slate doesn't sound like a character to me, it'd just end up copying organics and we'd be rehashing EDI's storyline all over again.

I'm sure professional writers have more imagination than you...

[CrutchCricket]

That novel that was acknowledged as erroneous by Bioware? Yeah, OK...

1. They made no effort to hide their megastructure.
2. In the same way how they broadcasted the signal via the same QEC from one Destroyer.
3. You are assuming soft retcons like Anderson/Udina are minor? OK.
4. Won't stick out much for you. Not for me.
5. Again, not a minor addition/change IMO.
6. It is quite a stretch. It is one thing to believe that already created geth have a right to live freely and it's a whole another thing to recreate them after they were destroyed, after centuries of wandering because of the geth.

If you can't make a serious presentation, don't mock. It does not strengthen your subjective PoV, it only weakens it by presenting yourself as someone incapable of constructive analysis (which is not true in your case). Stupidity of the endings is as debatable as who was right in the geth/quarian conflict. Your comments do not point it out, all they do is show your bias and dislike of the endings. 

I never said it was good.

1.  A very questionable and suspicious lack of judgement I think you'll agree.
2. Broadcasting is not the same as tracing
3. Yeah it was pretty minor. I didn't like it, but that was more because I don't like Udina than on principle. They acknowledge the change (and the choice) and move on. And the roles work better as they are, just as in ME2 Anderson was more advantageous.
4. Meh. Precedent means "not out of nowhere", therefore it's not really an asspull. If it sticks out to you that's your issue.
5. Same as above.
6. You underestimate the degree to which opinions can vary. And it's not just about believing in having the right to live freely. It's about believing you are in the wrong to try and snuff out that right in the first place.

I will mock anything that deserves it. And the "art" doesn't just deserve it, it requires it. This discussion isn't really about the endings so I don't particularly care about constructive analysis on the topic or convincing others about what is evident. Again, given that the previous scores of manifestos of constructive criticism on the endings haven't done **** to change anything I don't feel particularly inclined to add to them at the present time.

[Heimdall]

I'm sure professional writers have more imagination than you...

Maybe, maybe not.  Being a professional doesn't make one imaginative and Bioware writing has always oscillated between decent and mediocre, with rare moments of brilliance.  They aren't unapproachable.  I just write as a hobby, and I toss around character concepts and plot arcs in my head for fun when I'm bored.  And I think the Geth story has reached a good stopping point with no need to rehash them.

[wolfhowwl]

The Geth and Quarians both had their arcs finished one way or another in ME3. 

 

I think the writers would want to move on to other things so their inclusion probably wouldn't amount to much more than some token characters and I wouldn't be particularly broken up if we didn't see them again.

[ZoliCs]

Everyone's arc was finished.

[dreamgazer]

And I think the Geth story has reached a good stopping point with no need to rehash them.

Agreed.

[themikefest]

I only liked Xen and Reegar. If we have Quarians in the next game, I wouldn't mind if they were similiar to those two

 

The geth I'm not a big fan of and for them not to return wouldn't bother me. If by chance they're in the next game,  I would like to have a geth Prime for a squadmate.

[Vazgen]

I never said it was good.

1.  A very questionable and suspicious lack of judgement I think you'll agree.
2. Broadcasting is not the same as tracing
3. Yeah it was pretty minor. I didn't like it, but that was more because I don't like Udina than on principle. They acknowledge the change (and the choice) and move on. And the roles work better as they are, just as in ME2 Anderson was more advantageous.
4. Meh. Precedent means "not out of nowhere", therefore it's not really an asspull. If it sticks out to you that's your issue.
5. Same as above.
6. You underestimate the degree to which opinions can vary. And it's not just about believing in having the right to live freely. It's about believing you are in the wrong to try and snuff out that right in the first place.

I will mock anything that deserves it. And the "art" doesn't just deserve it, it requires it. This discussion isn't really about the endings so I don't particularly care about constructive analysis on the topic or convincing others about what is evident. Again, given that the previous scores of manifestos of constructive criticism on the endings haven't done **** to change anything I don't feel particularly inclined to add to them at the present time.

I talked about the geth writing in the games (infamous "emotional manipulation"). You talked about segregation between in-universe facts and presentation in the games and brought Kai Leng as an example. I said that 1) the geth were written that way, their emotional manipulation was not a result of animations or something else within gameplay mechanics and 2) that Leng is indeed written as a threat in the games. You then brought Deception as an example (which I haven't read, tbh) and claimed that he is not written as a threat in that book. I then mentioned that Bioware acknowledged that Deception is erroneous. You then said, that you never said it was good. What? 

1. I never said it wasn't. It happened though. We had the heretic station being hidden for more than a century and geth megastructure that was discovered in 6 months. 
2. We are talking about the Reapers here, the ones who were able to assume direct control of individual Collectors from dark space. Don't forget, their code has infected the consensus, if there is a connection between consensus and the backup programs those would be affected too.
3. Well, we have to agree to disagree on that.
4. It is. Distrust of organics is one of the defining characteristics of Legion IMO. You suggest taking it away and undermine its character arc by making it to cooperate with organics before meeting Shepard. This is serious.
5. Same here. This conversation is going nowhere, what you consider acceptable retcon I view as unacceptable ass pull.
6. Perhaps you underestimate the fact that the whole culture of the quarians for centuries was colored by their escape from the geth. Opinions may vary on how to deal with the geth, but creating new ones would require some brain damage.

Given that you acknowledge that this is not an ending debate I suggest us both stop discussing this issue. The endings are not stupid for me and they can certainly qualified as art, just like books or movies. You don't think so, fine, let's agree to disagree. After 3+ years neither of us can convince each other otherwise.