193 réponses à ce sujet

[CrutchCricket]

I talked about the geth writing in the games (infamous "emotional manipulation"). You talked about segregation between in-universe facts and presentation in the games and brought Kai Leng as an example. I said that 1) the geth were written that way, their emotional manipulation was not a result of animations or something else within gameplay mechanics and 2) that Leng is indeed written as a threat in the games. You then brought Deception as an example (which I haven't read, tbh) and claimed that he is not written as a threat in that book. I then mentioned that Bioware acknowledged that Deception is erroneous. You then said, that you never said it was good. What? 

1. I never said it wasn't. It happened though. We had the heretic station being hidden for more than a century and geth megastructure that was discovered in 6 months. 
2. We are talking about the Reapers here, the ones who were able to assume direct control of individual Collectors from dark space. Don't forget, their code has infected the consensus, if there is a connection between consensus and the backup programs those would be affected too.
3. Well, we have to agree to disagree on that.
4. It is. Distrust of organics is one of the defining characteristics of Legion IMO. You suggest taking it away and undermine its character arc by making it to cooperate with organics before meeting Shepard. This is serious.
5. Same here. This conversation is going nowhere, what you consider acceptable retcon I view as unacceptable ass pull.
6. Perhaps you underestimate the fact that the whole culture of the quarians for centuries was colored by their escape from the geth. Opinions may vary on how to deal with the geth, but creating new ones would require some brain damage.

Given that you acknowledge that this is not an ending debate I suggest us both stop discussing this issue. The endings are not stupid for me and they can certainly qualified as art, just like books or movies. You don't think so, fine, let's agree to disagree. After 3+ years neither of us can convince each other otherwise.

Deception being terrible doesn't change the fact that Leng's presentation in that book was a joke despite him being a threat in-universe. Another example: everybody whining over Thessia is also a presentation thing (Bioware really wants you to like asari) while in-universe it would be no more or less tragic than any other homeworld going down. Same with Earth. But we're getting off topic with these side examples. The heavy-handed heartstring pulls in things like the geth consensus mission were done for out benefit, not Shepard's. Same with the genophage. In-universe, the music doesn't swell dramatically during those moments. And since I was refreshing my memory on detail, here's some more anti-anthropomorphism: the infamous "does this unit have a soul" thing was not asked under Reaper code influence. It was the question that started the Morning War, back when the geth were dumb, non-human networked VIs.

1. Great so it can go both ways. That means it will go the right way if they decide to bring the geth back.
2. The Collectors were their direct creations. The geth are not. And the point of the backup is to sever connection when you are attacked- which happened before the Reapers enter the picture.
3. I don't agree to that.
4. How do you figure? Legion is specifically sent out to contact organics (ok, one organic in particular but still) and it distrusts them? I don't think so.
5. By definition, it is not.
6. No, it was colored by their lack of homeworld. Slight but significant difference. And by their loss of it to the geth, sure. Something they would obviously fret over and analyze over and over again- until it dawned on somebody that they were let go. The geth were ruthless in exterminating, what over 90% of the quarians? Yet they stop before they finish the job. Why? Are they paying by the laser? They only stopped because they wanted to stop. Now the question becomes why. And while that's clearly not the prevailing viewpoint in the Migrant fleet, it may be enough to drive a minority to search for the answer. And if they can't talk to existing geth, why not make more to see if they shed some light on the problem?

You asked, I just answered.

[Vazgen]

Deception being terrible doesn't change the fact that Leng's presentation in that book was a joke despite him being a threat in-universe. Another example: everybody whining over Thessia is also a presentation thing (Bioware really wants you to like asari) while in-universe it would be no more or less tragic than any other homeworld going down. Same with Earth. But we're getting off topic with these side examples. The heavy-handed heartstring pulls in things like the geth consensus mission were done for out benefit, not Shepard's. Same with the genophage. In-universe, the music doesn't swell dramatically during those moments. And since I was refreshing my memory on detail, here's some more anti-anthropomorphism: the infamous "does this unit have a soul" thing was not asked under Reaper code influence. It was the question that started the Morning War, back when the geth were dumb, non-human networked VIs.

1. Great so it can go both ways. That means it will go the right way if they decide to bring the geth back.
2. The Collectors were their direct creations. The geth are not. And the point of the backup is to sever connection when you are attacked- which happened before the Reapers enter the picture.
3. I don't agree to that.
4. How do you figure? Legion is specifically sent out to contact organics (ok, one organic in particular but still) and it distrusts them? I don't think so.
5. By definition, it is not.
6. No, it was colored by their lack of homeworld. Slight but significant difference. And by their loss of it to the geth, sure. Something they would obviously fret over and analyze over and over again- until it dawned on somebody that they were let go. The geth were ruthless in exterminating, what over 90% of the quarians? Yet they stop before they finish the job. Why? Are they paying by the laser? They only stopped because they wanted to stop. Now the question becomes why. And while that's clearly not the prevailing viewpoint in the Migrant fleet, it may be enough to drive a minority to search for the answer. And if they can't talk to existing geth, why not make more to see if they shed some light on the problem?

You asked, I just answered.

Haven't read that so I can't comment on that. But really, using evidence from a book Bioware themselves confirmed erroneous does not prove anything. Losing Asari homeworld is different from others. It's like if aliens attacked Earth and conquered both the US and, say, Canada. While the loss of life is tragic in both cases, the loss of US has more impact than the loss of Canada, simply due to US having larger and more advanced military. Same thing goes for Thessia, the homeworld of the most advanced race in the galaxy. I was not talking about music or animations, this was about writing. You are willing to dismiss the whole geth consensus mission equating it to in-game presentation while ignoring the writing in that mission. It's a different kind of emotional manipulation, one that has nothing to do with presentation. By that logic I can dismiss Legion and Wrex entirely as attempts to emotionally manipulate the player to support their factions. It doesn't work that way. This is not anti-anthropomorphism, it is anti-anthropomorphism in ME3 which was not the point of the discussion as you stated yourself. The only thing that proves is that the geth had human characteristics from the start (which would tie nicely with N7 armor piece).

1. You seem to forget the topic of discussion. You mentioned the geth knowing about the Reapers, hiding and being discovered by the Ark crew. Thing is if the geth want to hide, they won't be found. If they don't want to hide, the whole idea doesn't make sense.
2. It could work. Still, separating consensus strikes me as the last thing the geth would do. And no, I don't buy into "this is the last thing they'd expect us to do" argument. Mostly because locking away part of the consensus makes both the remaining and backup geth dumber. 
3. 
4. Exactly, one specific organic. And even when talking to this specific organic it does not trust it right away, it requires Shepard to finish the loyalty mission to make it trust him. Trust issues are true for all ME2 squadmates, except Legion's mistrust is evidenced when talking to Koris about peace, when scanning Tali's omni-tool in secret, when describing Shepard during their final conversations (You are different).
5. There is no precedent for Cerberus using Overlod tech successfully or achieving success without an autistic savant. There is also no precedent of Overlord tech losing control of the geth. By definition this is an ass pull.
6. Remember what Miranda said about activating Legion? That it should be for humanity's best interests not Shepard's curiosity. Now take Quarians, born in exile, raised and taught about the geth rebellion, witnessing geth attack on the Citadel. You really think that they would create more geth just to satisfy their curiosity about the exact nature of their exile? 

Fair enough. I ask you to refrain from such comments in our future conversations.

[CrutchCricket]

Haven't read that so I can't comment on that. But really, using evidence from a book Bioware themselves confirmed erroneous does not prove anything. Losing Asari homeworld is different from others. It's like if aliens attacked Earth and conquered both the US and, say, Canada. While the loss of life is tragic in both cases, the loss of US has more impact than the loss of Canada, simply due to US having larger and more advanced military. Same thing goes for Thessia, the homeworld of the most advanced race in the galaxy. I was not talking about music or animations, this was about writing. You are willing to dismiss the whole geth consensus mission equating it to in-game presentation while ignoring the writing in that mission. It's a different kind of emotional manipulation, one that has nothing to do with presentation. By that logic I can dismiss Legion and Wrex entirely as attempts to emotionally manipulate the player to support their factions. It doesn't work that way. This is not anti-anthropomorphism, it is anti-anthropomorphism in ME3 which was not the point of the discussion as you stated yourself. The only thing that proves is that the geth had human characteristics from the start (which would tie nicely with N7 armor piece).

1. You seem to forget the topic of discussion. You mentioned the geth knowing about the Reapers, hiding and being discovered by the Ark crew. Thing is if the geth want to hide, they won't be found. If they don't want to hide, the whole idea doesn't make sense.
2. It could work. Still, separating consensus strikes me as the last thing the geth would do. And no, I don't buy into "this is the last thing they'd expect us to do" argument. Mostly because locking away part of the consensus makes both the remaining and backup geth dumber. 
3. 
4. Exactly, one specific organic. And even when talking to this specific organic it does not trust it right away, it requires Shepard to finish the loyalty mission to make it trust him. Trust issues are true for all ME2 squadmates, except Legion's mistrust is evidenced when talking to Koris about peace, when scanning Tali's omni-tool in secret, when describing Shepard during their final conversations (You are different).
5. There is no precedent for Cerberus using Overlod tech successfully or achieving success without an autistic savant. There is also no precedent of Overlord tech losing control of the geth. By definition this is an ass pull.
6. Remember what Miranda said about activating Legion? That it should be for humanity's best interests not Shepard's curiosity. Now take Quarians, born in exile, raised and taught about the geth rebellion, witnessing geth attack on the Citadel. You really think that they would create more geth just to satisfy their curiosity about the exact nature of their exile? 

Fair enough. I ask you to refrain from such comments in our future conversations.

It proves a segregation between presentation and in-universe facts. Something which should be evident anyway. And greater military might is not why the game forces you to cry over Thessia (never mind "Have the asari ever won a war?") It's about the asari image of pure beauty and grace. It's the equivalent of showing you a deer dying and that's supposed to be more moving than another creature dying. Not to mention that greater advancement is useless if they refuse to help.

 

And I'm not dismissing the consensus mission entirely, but come on. Was "what has this unit done wrong?" really written as "delivered so pleadingly it almost sounds like crying"? I don't think it was. And even if it was it's still chalked up to presentation. The lore on what the geth are is clear. Geth do not plead. The pleading was tweaked in for our benefit, and should not be taken as a literal reproduction of what occured.

 

Or you know what, let's turn it around. Let's say it is taken as an exact reproduction. What does it prove? That like the soul thing, the geth were capable of this all along. Which still doesn't prove your point that the Reaper code anthropomorphized them since it doesn't change anything in this respect. I still disagree the belief or discourse on souls is necessarily a human trait but I am willing to concede that emotional reactions wether genuine or emulated were observed in the geth both before and after the Reaper code which does anthropomorpize them a little. Doesn't change the fact that they are still one of the best exisitng candidates for non-anthropomorphic representation (they can always be written closer to their ME2 incarnation since presumably they wouldn't be threatened with extinction).

 

And as a final note, the rachni may be no better if you consider the breeder a fair representative of their species.

1. Hiding from the Reapers is not the same as hiding from everyone else. And there were three possibilities here. Being discovered by the Ark creators, contacting them themselves, or making their own way to Andromeda. And pure luck of the two encountering each other but that would stick out. Personally I'd prefer one of the first two since it means geth assistance with the Ark.
2. "There are levels of survival we'd be willing to accept". And the loss should be temporary. I would expect both sides to churn out more geth programs to recuperate.
3. (previously 4). Legion's statement to Koris isn't mistrust, it's stated fact. Whenever the quarians could, they did lash out at the geth. At best it's doubt, and justified as Koris is clearly in the minority among his people. And Legion's justification for scanning Tali's omni-tool was just as clear. "Creators were perfoming weapons tests and were discussing plans to attack us". It's basic precaution, not preconceived mistrust.
4. Apart from Lazarus what is the precedent for Cerberus being successful?   But the data is there. And them failing is a direct logical consequence of not having an autistic savant, or perhaps of not having one of David's caliber.
5. Yeah, Miranda cautioned against it, specifically because Shepard was curious. What do you know, both perspectives are represented in that scene.

If I did that for you, I'd have to do it for everybody. And I don't see that happening.

[Vazgen]

It proves a segregation between presentation and in-universe facts. Something which should be evident anyway. And greater military might is not why the game forces you to cry over Thessia (never mind "Have the asari ever won a war?") It's about the asari image of pure beauty and grace. It's the equivalent of showing you a deer dying and that's supposed to be more moving than another creature dying. Not to mention that greater advancement is useless if they refuse to help.

 

And I'm not dismissing the consensus mission entirely, but come on. Was "what has this unit done wrong?" really written as "delivered so pleadingly it almost sounds like crying"? I don't think it was. And even if it was it's still chalked up to presentation. The lore on what the geth are is clear. Geth do not plead. The pleading was tweaked in for our benefit, and should not be taken as a literal reproduction of what occured.

 

Or you know what, let's turn it around. Let's say it is taken as an exact reproduction. What does it prove? That like the soul thing, the geth were capable of this all along. Which still doesn't prove your point that the Reaper code anthropomorphized them since it doesn't change anything in this respect. I still disagree the belief or discourse on souls is necessarily a human trait but I am willing to concede that emotional reactions wether genuine or emulated were observed in the geth both before and after the Reaper code which does anthropomorpize them a little. Doesn't change the fact that they are still one of the best exisitng candidates for non-anthropomorphic representation (they can always be written closer to their ME2 incarnation since presumably they wouldn't be threatened with extinction).

 

And as a final note, the rachni may be no better if you consider the breeder a fair representative of their species.

1. Hiding from the Reapers is not the same as hiding from everyone else. And there were three possibilities here. Being discovered by the Ark creators, contacting them themselves, or making their own way to Andromeda. And pure luck of the two encountering each other but that would stick out. Personally I'd prefer one of the first two since it means geth assistance with the Ark.
2. "There are levels of survival we'd be willing to accept". And the loss should be temporary. I would expect both sides to churn out more geth programs to recuperate.
3. (previously 4). Legion's statement to Koris isn't mistrust, it's stated fact. Whenever the quarians could, they did lash out at the geth. At best it's doubt, and justified as Koris is clearly in the minority among his people. And Legion's justification for scanning Tali's omni-tool was just as clear. "Creators were perfoming weapons tests and were discussing plans to attack us". It's basic precaution, not preconceived mistrust.
4. Apart from Lazarus what is the precedent for Cerberus being successful?   But the data is there. And them failing is a direct logical consequence of not having an autistic savant, or perhaps of not having one of David's caliber.
5. Yeah, Miranda cautioned against it, specifically because Shepard was curious. What do you know, both perspectives are represented in that scene.

If I did that for you, I'd have to do it for everybody. And I don't see that happening.

I am willing to concede that emotional reactions wether genuine or emulated were observed in the geth both before and after the Reaper code which does anthropomorpize them a little.

That's what I'm talking about all this time

 

Doesn't change the fact that they are still one of the best exisitng candidates for non-anthropomorphic representation (they can always be written closer to their ME2 incarnation since presumably they wouldn't be threatened with extinction).

True. Still, I'd prefer new species to fill that role, exactly because of traits of humanization already written for the geth.

1. Yes, they need to hide better First is sheer luck, second goes against the established views on the geth/organic relationships, third is unnecessary (they can just wait in dark space and return to Milky Way which has a ton of resources and uncharted territory)
2. Can the geth even create new programs? If so, why didn't they replace the lost heretic programs after ME2?
3. Isn't mistrust an antonym of trust? And won't trust imply, well, trusting each other with information? Koris's line shows Legion's mistrust in Quarians regarding the peace option. Scanning Tali's omni-tool is a continuation of this mistrust - it wants to warn the geth of the possible attack, meaning it does not trust the Quarians not to attack.
4. Data is there and the data states that the geth do not break control of the Overlord technology. David was the one controlling them. There was no precedent => ass pull.
5. Point was that there will be no Miranda for Quarians, years of education, upbringing and Quarian culture will take her place. Unless we are talking about some a**hole like Golo, I don't see that happening. But yes, this is the most minor of options. Still kinda stupid. This war is finally over... or not.

Don't do it when directly replying to me, that's all I ask. Otherwise we'll keep getting into the same discussion over and over again and I'd like to avoid that not by avoiding talking to you.

[CrutchCricket]

I am willing to concede that emotional reactions wether genuine or emulated were observed in the geth both before and after the Reaper code which does anthropomorpize them a little.
That's what I'm talking about all this time

Nope, you claimed the Reaper upgrade anthropomorphized them.
 

Doesn't change the fact that they are still one of the best exisitng candidates for non-anthropomorphic representation (they can always be written closer to their ME2 incarnation since presumably they wouldn't be threatened with extinction).
True. Still, I'd prefer new species to fill that role, exactly because of traits of humanization already written for the geth.

The traits are minor at best and can be entirely avoided. The consensus mission is optional I believe, and making peace or siding with the Geth doesn't ****** Legion off. This is easily the kind of thing we could never see again, if they did it right.
They could do it with new species, sure. But in a different galaxy where we're intruders at best. Chances are they'll be hostile.
 

• Yes, they need to hide better First is sheer luck, second goes against the established views on the geth/organic relationships, third is unnecessary (they can just wait in dark space and return to Milky Way which has a ton of resources and uncharted territory)
• Can the geth even create new programs? If so, why didn't they replace the lost heretic programs after ME2?
• Isn't mistrust an antonym of trust? And won't trust imply, well, trusting each other with information? Koris's line shows Legion's mistrust in Quarians regarding the peace option. Scanning Tali's omni-tool is a continuation of this mistrust - it wants to warn the geth of the possible attack, meaning it does not trust the Quarians not to attack.
• Data is there and the data states that the geth do not break control of the Overlord technology. David was the one controlling them. There was no precedent => ass pull.
• Point was that there will be no Miranda for Quarians, years of education, upbringing and Quarian culture will take her place. Unless we are talking about some a**hole like Golo, I don't see that happening. But yes, this is the most minor of options. Still kinda stupid. This war is finally over... or not.

Don't do it when directly replying to me, that's all I ask. Otherwise we'll keep getting into the same discussion over and over again and I'd like to avoid that not by avoiding talking to you.

 

1. The first option is not necessarily only sheer luck. Legion is precedent for two. Three is necessary because the geth would not want to be in the shadow of the Reapers. Waiting out the harvest is meaningless, because the Reapers will be back.
2. I don't see why they wouldn't. I don't think it's likely they'd be the threat they are today if they were only the programs from the Morning War. And the geth could've done many things other than what they were doing in order to be get taken out like chumps. Your guess is as good as mine for why they didn't. I'd just ascribe it to bad writing.
3. It's skepticism based on reasonable facts. "Mistrust" seems to imply a preconcieved default state. If I see someone preparing to attack me, saying I don't trust them seems like kind of a moot point.
4. It wasn't the technology that was unsurpassable it was David's mind. And if I remember correctly it didn't even start out as an "assuming direct control" thing. It was more like David could just communicate with them on their own level and eventually became the prime decision maker in that isolated consensus. Which incidentally would seem to support an isolated consensus. If all geth communicated with all other geth all the time wouldn't the overall consensus be able to tell David is still not a geth? And if it couldn't why weren't all geth under the Overlord? Unless they were heretics I guess. But even so, the heretic consensus would still be larger than the number of geth in Overlord. So maybe the question remains.
5. Sure the war is over. Nascent geth would not be immediately hostile. And quarians that built them wouldn't do so to attack them and would know what just trying to shut them down would lead to. Creating geth for any reason could almost be a proof of concept for peace.

I will not go out of my way to antagonize you but if it comes up, it comes up. I'll admit I had a bit of a chuckle at your taking offense the first couple of times but now I'm a little curious as well. Why do you care?

[Vazgen]

Nope, you claimed the Reaper upgrade anthropomorphized them.
 

The traits are minor at best and can be entirely avoided. The consensus mission is optional I believe, and making peace or siding with the Geth doesn't ****** Legion off. This is easily the kind of thing we could never see again, if they did it right.
They could do it with new species, sure. But in a different galaxy where we're intruders at best. Chances are they'll be hostile.
 

1. The first option is not necessarily only sheer luck. Legion is precedent for two. Three is necessary because the geth would not want to be in the shadow of the Reapers. Waiting out the harvest is meaningless, because the Reapers will be back.
2. I don't see why they wouldn't. I don't think it's likely they'd be the threat they are today if they were only the programs from the Morning War. And the geth could've done many things other than what they were doing in order to be get taken out like chumps. Your guess is as good as mine for why they didn't. I'd just ascribe it to bad writing.
3. It's skepticism based on reasonable facts. "Mistrust" seems to imply a preconcieved default state. If I see someone preparing to attack me, saying I don't trust them seems like kind of a moot point.
4. It wasn't the technology that was unsurpassable it was David's mind. And if I remember correctly it didn't even start out as an "assuming direct control" thing. It was more like David could just communicate with them on their own level and eventually became the prime decision maker in that isolated consensus. Which incidentally would seem to support an isolated consensus. If all geth communicated with all other geth all the time wouldn't the overall consensus be able to tell David is still not a geth? And if it couldn't why weren't all geth under the Overlord? Unless they were heretics I guess. But even so, the heretic consensus would still be larger than the number of geth in Overlord. So maybe the question remains.
5. Sure the war is over. Nascent geth would not be immediately hostile. And quarians that built them wouldn't do so to attack them and would know what just trying to shut them down would lead to. Creating geth for any reason could almost be a proof of concept for peace.

I will not go out of my way to antagonize you but if it comes up, it comes up. I'll admit I had a bit of a chuckle at your taking offense the first couple of times but now I'm a little curious as well. Why do you care?

I claimed it at first, but then the discussion changed to them being anthropomorphized at all. That reassessment comment I made a few pages ago. You chose to continue the discussion this way, not I.

 

A lot of things are avoidable, like talking to Legion, for example. Should we dismiss its information on the geth as well?

And I doubt all the new species will be hostile. Time will tell

1. Well, it is, since we already established that the geth won't be found if they want it so. Legion is the only platform operating outside of the geth space so this idea hinges on Legion's actions in two years of Shepard's resurrection. And when we meet him, there is nothing to indicate that he had contacted organics previously, in fact its dialogue kinda opposes that. Waiting out the harvest allows them to find a solution to the Reaper problem when they had left. Just what Protheans wanted to do with Javik. 
2. I think they can't. There were a lot of programs during the Morning War, quarians had colonies too. There were probably a lot of units, likely more than the quarians and each unit had a number of programs operating it.
3. I don't think mistrust implies a default state. If someone betrays me I won't trust him later on. Even if I trusted him back then. And the geth were "betrayed" by the quarians, Legion was shot by organics on Eden Prime. 
4. The final outcome of the Overlord project was that David was able to influence geth consensus and control the geth. There was no indication that the geth could break that control, there was even no indication that they realized being controlled. They perceived David as one of their own, so to speak.
5. It can be. But how do you portray it equally for all three options, particularly destruction? People who destroyed the geth suddenly find that the quarians created them again. Doesn't that undermine the whole geth/quarian arc of the trilogy and/or is basically a new version of that arc? 

Because I'm tired. Don't you get tired of people saying that Kasumi was a worthless addition to the series when it is obviously not the case? I feel that way about the endings. But in case of Kasumi, people don't insult your intelligence for liking her. In case of the endings they do (not directly, of course). Like when saying that the endings are undeniably stupid which kinda implies that people who liked the endings fail to recognize this stupidity and thus lack something in the brain department. It also doesn't help that most (if not all) arguments about the endings boil down not to the writing failures (which are no less stupid than other moments in the trilogy, which, however, do not get the same treatment) but to the personal enjoyment of the players. 

[CrutchCricket]

I claimed it at first, but then the discussion changed to them being anthropomorphized at all. That reassessment comment I made a few pages ago. You chose to continue the discussion this way, not I.

 

A lot of things are avoidable, like talking to Legion, for example. Should we dismiss its information on the geth as well?

And I doubt all the new species will be hostile. Time will tell

1. Well, it is, since we already established that the geth won't be found if they want it so. Legion is the only platform operating outside of the geth space so this idea hinges on Legion's actions in two years of Shepard's resurrection. And when we meet him, there is nothing to indicate that he had contacted organics previously, in fact its dialogue kinda opposes that. Waiting out the harvest allows them to find a solution to the Reaper problem when they had left. Just what Protheans wanted to do with Javik. 
2. I think they can't. There were a lot of programs during the Morning War, quarians had colonies too. There were probably a lot of units, likely more than the quarians and each unit had a number of programs operating it.
3. I don't think mistrust implies a default state. If someone betrays me I won't trust him later on. Even if I trusted him back then. And the geth were "betrayed" by the quarians, Legion was shot by organics on Eden Prime. 
4. The final outcome of the Overlord project was that David was able to influence geth consensus and control the geth. There was no indication that the geth could break that control, there was even no indication that they realized being controlled. They perceived David as one of their own, so to speak.
5. It can be. But how do you portray it equally for all three options, particularly destruction? People who destroyed the geth suddenly find that the quarians created them again. Doesn't that undermine the whole geth/quarian arc of the trilogy and/or is basically a new version of that arc? 

Because I'm tired. Don't you get tired of people saying that Kasumi was a worthless addition to the series when it is obviously not the case? I feel that way about the endings. But in case of Kasumi, people don't insult your intelligence for liking her. In case of the endings they do (not directly, of course). Like when saying that the endings are undeniably stupid which kinda implies that people who liked the endings fail to recognize this stupidity and thus lack something in the brain department. It also doesn't help that most (if not all) arguments about the endings boil down not to the writing failures (which are no less stupid than other moments in the trilogy, which, however, do not get the same treatment) but to the personal enjoyment of the players. 

The discussion didn't really change. My point had always been the geth hadn't become anthropmorphized by the Reaper code. All that's changed is I added "any more than they already were".

 

Which can be disregarded anyway when writing them in the future. That's what I meant by "easy to ignore".

1. I'm not willing to conclude it's impossible just yet. The heretic station had the added advantage of still being in geth space where no one ever went anyway. I don't think that applies anymore by the time the war's in full force. Is there any specific in-game dialogue that asserts Legion is the only platform sent out? Because if not, there is room for another. And why would the geth care about the Reaper problem?
2. The Morning War was a war. A war the quarians lost but a war nonetheless. They destroyed plenty of geth before fleeing. Not to mention the witch hunts they had before it became a full conflict. I don't think the geth would still be a force to be reckoned with if they couldn't replicate beyond that. Besides, why are the quarians (and others such as Miranda) so afraid of activating geth on a ship? Because the geth will not only hack their systems but replicate and spread through them as well. That's what happened to the Alarei.
3. I don't think the Morning War was technically a "betrayal" by the quarians, since they hadn't really "promised" anything to the geth. Regardless even if we just leave it at "the geth always expect the quarians to attack unless something changes", I don't think that applies to all organics necessarily. The geth can differentiate between their creators and other organics just as they can recognize that organics in general are not uniform like they are. So "this organic shot us, therefore all organics will" is not necessarily a valid conclusion.
4. That's what I said. But it's also strongly implied that David is the only one that could do it. Thus it seems reasonable that if you tried with anyone else it would fail eventually, if it worked at all. And it can work temporarily because you can get another savant autisistic that isn't on the same level as David. Or, if you do get someone that can do what David did but aren't willing to fully strap him in that torture-machine like interface, the less than perfect connection can also be a point of failure.
5. You mean destruction as in the ending. You know full well that never sat right with me. I assume it's pretty much a given the totality of that destruction will be retconned in some way, even for Reapers if they needed them. Either through a failure of the wave or shielding of some kind. Even space magic EMPs probably can't go through planets. As for destruction over Rannoch, again it's no different than Anderson/Udina or the rachni queen, or indeed activating Legion vs not. I don't think it undermines the arc at all. And it certainly doesn't reset it. Again geth appearing is not necessarily a retread of the previous theme.

Actually, not many people say that. Kasumi doesn't get a lot of hate, something I am thankful for. But you're taking it all wrong. I make no judgement about pro-enders (except the really deluded ones). I can't speak for others that do but I don't think it's wrong to like something dumb, or that doing so makes you less intelligent. Clearly you like other things that are intelligent.

 

I'll be real for a second. The core paths of the ending are not fundamentally flawed. Destroy is self evident. Control works too, though it needed more setup to make us believe it's viable. Synthesis is probably hardest to justify, has the worst explanation and implementation and is just straight-up too much to introduce in the last five minutes of what you say is the end of the trilogy. But it's not impossible to make work. The utter failure comes from the holokid, its claim of controlling the Reapers and its logic. Take that out and most of the problem goes away.

 

I could go into more detail but I don't think this should become an ending discussion one way or another.

[Vazgen]

The discussion didn't really change. My point had always been the geth hadn't become anthropmorphized by the Reaper code. All that's changed is I added "any more than they already were".

 

Which can be disregarded anyway when writing them in the future. That's what I meant by "easy to ignore".

1. I'm not willing to conclude it's impossible just yet. The heretic station had the added advantage of still being in geth space where no one ever went anyway. I don't think that applies anymore by the time the war's in full force. Is there any specific in-game dialogue that asserts Legion is the only platform sent out? Because if not, there is room for another. And why would the geth care about the Reaper problem?
2. The Morning War was a war. A war the quarians lost but a war nonetheless. They destroyed plenty of geth before fleeing. Not to mention the witch hunts they had before it became a full conflict. I don't think the geth would still be a force to be reckoned with if they couldn't replicate beyond that. Besides, why are the quarians (and others such as Miranda) so afraid of activating geth on a ship? Because the geth will not only hack their systems but replicate and spread through them as well. That's what happened to the Alarei.
3. I don't think the Morning War was technically a "betrayal" by the quarians, since they hadn't really "promised" anything to the geth. Regardless even if we just leave it at "the geth always expect the quarians to attack unless something changes", I don't think that applies to all organics necessarily. The geth can differentiate between their creators and other organics just as they can recognize that organics in general are not uniform like they are. So "this organic shot us, therefore all organics will" is not necessarily a valid conclusion.
4. That's what I said. But it's also strongly implied that David is the only one that could do it. Thus it seems reasonable that if you tried with anyone else it would fail eventually, if it worked at all. And it can work temporarily because you can get another savant autisistic that isn't on the same level as David. Or, if you do get someone that can do what David did but aren't willing to fully strap him in that torture-machine like interface, the less than perfect connection can also be a point of failure.
5. You mean destruction as in the ending. You know full well that never sat right with me. I assume it's pretty much a given the totality of that destruction will be retconned in some way, even for Reapers if they needed them. Either through a failure of the wave or shielding of some kind. Even space magic EMPs probably can't go through planets. As for destruction over Rannoch, again it's no different than Anderson/Udina or the rachni queen, or indeed activating Legion vs not. I don't think it undermines the arc at all. And it certainly doesn't reset it. Again geth appearing is not necessarily a retread of the previous theme.

Actually, not many people say that. Kasumi doesn't get a lot of hate, something I am thankful for. But you're taking it all wrong. I make no judgement about pro-enders (except the really deluded ones). I can't speak for others that do but I don't think it's wrong to like something dumb, or that doing so makes you less intelligent. Clearly you like other things that are intelligent.

 

I'll be real for a second. The core paths of the ending are not fundamentally flawed. Destroy is self evident. Control works too, though it needed more setup to make us believe it's viable. Synthesis is probably hardest to justify, has the worst explanation and implementation and is just straight-up too much to introduce in the last five minutes of what you say is the end of the trilogy. But it's not impossible to make work. The utter failure comes from the holokid, its claim of controlling the Reapers and its logic. Take that out and most of the problem goes away.

 

I could go into more detail but I don't think this should become an ending discussion one way or another.

Well, one might argue that Reapers upgraded the heretics in ME2. We just didn't know it. Legion says "How could we become so different? Why can we no longer understand each other?". In case of the geth it seems to be quite a major change. If that's true, lying is a feature added by the Reaper code But even without it, Legion finds the Reaper upgrades "beautiful", argues with Renegade Shepard and Raan and tries to appeal to their emotions (Link). It also expresses something like shame on a shuttle ride to Rannoch (Link). 

 

Well, I would not want to ignore information on any race.

1. If I were in charge of the ark ship, the last place I'd want to go is to the geth-controlled space, especially considering the geth attack on the Citadel. Legion says that it is the only mobile platform beyond the Veil (Link). Not to be "in the shadow of the Reapers", as you said?
2. I think the Morning War was not really a conventional one. My bet is that they sabotaged environmental systems, hacked technology etc. It would've went quickly and brutally. The actual combat would have been minor and conducted in the early stages of the conflict.
3. Yet the very fact that they use the word "organics" means they view them within one category.
4. If you leave David hooked up, it becomes "disconnected" (I believe that was the word) and the project gets shut down. So it fails anyway
5. I was referring to the fact of the quarians creating the geth. This is a repeat of their history. The difference will be the path taken - preventive strike or cooperation. It'll be like a reboot of the geth/quarian ark.

This shouldn't and I won't continue it. I would've suggested doing it via PM, but I think we're both tired of that discussion

[CrutchCricket]

Well, one might argue that Reapers upgraded the heretics in ME2. We just didn't know it. Legion says "How could we become so different? Why can we no longer understand each other?". In case of the geth it seems to be quite a major change. If that's true, lying is a feature added by the Reaper code But even without it, Legion finds the Reaper upgrades "beautiful", argues with Renegade Shepard and Raan and tries to appeal to their emotions (Link). It also expresses something like shame on a shuttle ride to Rannoch (Link). 

 

Well, I would not want to ignore information on any race.

1. If I were in charge of the ark ship, the last place I'd want to go is to the geth-controlled space, especially considering the geth attack on the Citadel. Legion says that it is the only mobile platform beyond the Veil (Link). Not to be "in the shadow of the Reapers", as you said?
2. I think the Morning War was not really a conventional one. My bet is that they sabotaged environmental systems, hacked technology etc. It would've went quickly and brutally. The actual combat would have been minor and conducted in the early stages of the conflict.
3. Yet the very fact that they use the word "organics" means they view them within one category.
4. If you leave David hooked up, it becomes "disconnected" (I believe that was the word) and the project gets shut down. So it fails anyway
5. I was referring to the fact of the quarians creating the geth. This is a repeat of their history. The difference will be the path taken - preventive strike or cooperation. It'll be like a reboot of the geth/quarian ark.

This shouldn't and I won't continue it. I would've suggested doing it via PM, but I think we're both tired of that discussion

There's no evidence the Reapers directly modified the heretics. If they had they wouldn't have allowed the worship they find disgusting. The heretics came to a different conclusion on their own. One variable change can cause a whole cascade of differences (in the real world, usually errors). The resulting difference is vast but it seems even more surprising to the geth because they never really experienced difference among themselves at all. "We are all geth".  And that doesn't account for the displays of emotion in the logs on the consensus mission. If we are taking those literally, that is.

1. Well you wouldn't take the ark there, certainly. You'd use a conventional ship.
2. Still started out as way more of a purge than would allow for the number of geth programs in modern times.
3. In which sentence?
4. Well there you go.
5. You could see it that way- if you view the two separately. But it's the same continuity. So it's more like not repeating the same mistakes of the past. And that concept is not represented by "don't create AI". That's enforcing the conflict. Actively working to come to peace with synthetics, even going so far as to recreate them is overcoming that conflict.

[Vazgen]

 

There's no evidence the Reapers directly modified the heretics. If they had they wouldn't have allowed the worship they find disgusting. The heretics came to a different conclusion on their own. One variable change can cause a whole cascade of differences (in the real world, usually errors). The resulting difference is vast but it seems even more surprising to the geth because they never really experienced difference among themselves at all. "We are all geth".  And that doesn't account for the displays of emotion in the logs on the consensus mission. If we are taking those literally, that is.

1. Well you wouldn't take the ark there, certainly. You'd use a conventional ship.
2. Still started out as way more of a purge than would allow for the number of geth programs in modern times.
3. In which sentence?
4. Well there you go.
5. You could see it that way- if you view the two separately. But it's the same continuity. So it's more like not repeating the same mistakes of the past. And that concept is not represented by "don't create AI". That's enforcing the conflict. Actively working to come to peace with synthetics, even going so far as to recreate them is overcoming that conflict.

But Legion is not puzzled by the differences in opinions. It says that "we accepted it". It is puzzled by the differences between the geth and the heretics. "How could we become so different? Why can we no longer understand each other?". I'm not sure that the geth would not have been able to understand the heretics even after supposed evolution. They are too similar for that. It's all theory of course, just thought it might be interesting  

1. We were talking about accidental discovery, no?
2. Well, we don't really know the numbers of the programs before the war, don't we? 
3. When talking about it being the only program beyond the Veil. "Organics fear us"
4. I think Cerberus has death with the outbreak. It's Gavin Archer who tells you about this after all
5. I think they will be viewed separately, especially if the setting is as disconnected from the trilogy as the leak seems to imply. And I'd prefer for the Catalyst's claims on the conflict not to be disproved (or even reinforced), but that's entirely subjective

[CrutchCricket]

But Legion is not puzzled by the differences in opinions. It says that "we accepted it". It is puzzled by the differences between the geth and the heretics. "How could we become so different? Why can we no longer understand each other?". I'm not sure that the geth would not have been able to understand the heretics even after supposed evolution. They are too similar for that. It's all theory of course, just thought it might be interesting

1. We were talking about accidental discovery, no?
2. Well, we don't really know the numbers of the programs before the war, don't we? 
3. When talking about it being the only program beyond the Veil. "Organics fear us"
4. I think Cerberus has death with the outbreak. It's Gavin Archer who tells you about this after all
5. I think they will be viewed separately, especially if the setting is as disconnected from the trilogy as the leak seems to imply. And I'd prefer for the Catalyst's claims on the conflict not to be disproved (or even reinforced), but that's entirely subjective

They accepted the "math error" and the heretics leaving. But that variable was a runtime level change that affected that and likely several other decision the geth hadn't made yet. Really it's no surprise that two groups developing in isolation of each other would develop differently. It's only a surprise to Legion because of what the geth are. And I don't believe the changes are that drastic. We know the geth both monitor organics without their knowledge and deceive them (remember the misinformation about that asari constellation that looked like a salarian god. Or maybe it was vice versa). The only real difference is geth are now doing that to other geth. It's minor to us. But huge to creatures who've never experienced such permanent division.

1. Yes, but this specific point was about geth space not being isolationist anymore. To that I suppose there would need to be an external reason to go. A too tempting cache of resources or the like.
2. No, but it seems very unlikely the quarians initially created enough programs to secure a space as large as the Veil, after suffering a purge and a war. If we try for a real life equivalent, copies of Windows in use may number in the billions but I don't think they could rule our solar system if we spent a good number of years trashing PCs and wiping harddrives before they had the power (and insight) to fight back. Plus I'm pretty sure the geth on the Alerei are specifically said to have reproduced, I just can't find the quote.
3. Ok. I was thinking more of direct attack. "When the creators thought they could win, they have attacked 100% of the time" (paraphrased). Someone attacking you every chance they get is different from someone (or multiple groups) fearing you. Funnily enough, no quarian other than Tali who sees Legion actually opens fire. Reegar's reaction is the best. "You have a geth right behind you!"
4. ?
5. The setting may change but continuity can be enforced in other ways. Otherwise... I'm making a special effort not to resort to mockery, I hope you appreciate it. The restrait is physically painful.

[Vazgen]

They accepted the "math error" and the heretics leaving. But that variable was a runtime level change that affected that and likely several other decision the geth hadn't made yet. Really it's no surprise that two groups developing in isolation of each other would develop differently. It's only a surprise to Legion because of what the geth are. And I don't believe the changes are that drastic. We know the geth both monitor organics without their knowledge and deceive them (remember the misinformation about that asari constellation that looked like a salarian god. Or maybe it was vice versa). The only real difference is geth are now doing that to other geth. It's minor to us. But huge to creatures who've never experienced such permanent division.

1. Yes, but this specific point was about geth space not being isolationist anymore. To that I suppose there would need to be an external reason to go. A too tempting cache of resources or the like.
2. No, but it seems very unlikely the quarians initially created enough programs to secure a space as large as the Veil, after suffering a purge and a war. If we try for a real life equivalent, copies of Windows in use may number in the billions but I don't think they could rule our solar system if we spent a good number of years trashing PCs and wiping harddrives before they had the power (and insight) to fight back. Plus I'm pretty sure the geth on the Alerei are specifically said to have reproduced, I just can't find the quote.
3. Ok. I was thinking more of direct attack. "When the creators thought they could win, they have attacked 100% of the time" (paraphrased). Someone attacking you every chance they get is different from someone (or multiple groups) fearing you. Funnily enough, no quarian other than Tali who sees Legion actually opens fire. Reegar's reaction is the best. "You have a geth right behind you!"
4. ?
5. The setting may change but continuity can be enforced in other ways. Otherwise... I'm making a special effort not to resort to mockery, I hope you appreciate it. The restrait is physically painful.

About that, there was this line from Legion about this issue that I don't quite understand. Shepard says:

"When individuals are separated, they develop in different ways. When they get back together, they don't always get along."

To which Legion responds: "If this is the individuality you value, we question your judgment."

Link

What does that line mean?

1. We do know that the geth did not venture beyond the Veil, except Legion. At least until ME3. And we know what happens in ME3 Of course, Legion could've lied about being the only mobile platform outside the Veil.
2. Solar system, no, but Earth? I can see that happening. There is a movie, Eagle Eye, that deals with one AI getting control over all kinds of systems. Imagine now if all Windows on Earth became such AIs... The geth did not expand their territory, they stayed within the boundaries of former Quarian space. As for Alarei, wasn't it Rael'Zorah who assembled new geth from those parts Tali sent him?
3. Yes, I'm not saying that they don't differentiate between organics and creators. But I think they view the Quarians as a unique sub-group of organics and don't make the same differentiation for other races. 
4. "has dealt" instead of "has death" This information comes from Gavin Archer when you talk to him in ME3. This is an excerpt from the wiki: If Shepard allowed David to stay at Project Overlord, Gavin reveals that the data on controlling the geth from Project Overlord was in fact useful, and David eventually calmed down his emotions somewhat but one day just stopped responding to any stimuli at all. Gavin then had to pull the life support plug on David as a mercy killing.
5. I'm not saying it can't be enforced, it certainly can. I'm just saying that this will look like a repeat or a rewrite of the history. It is not really unheard of but does come a little unimaginative. 

[CrutchCricket]

About that, there was this line from Legion about this issue that I don't quite understand. Shepard says:

"When individuals are separated, they develop in different ways. When they get back together, they don't always get along."

To which Legion responds: "If this is the individuality you value, we question your judgment."

Link

What does that line mean?

1. We do know that the geth did not venture beyond the Veil, except Legion. At least until ME3. And we know what happens in ME3 Of course, Legion could've lied about being the only mobile platform outside the Veil.
2. Solar system, no, but Earth? I can see that happening. There is a movie, Eagle Eye, that deals with one AI getting control over all kinds of systems. Imagine now if all Windows on Earth became such AIs... The geth did not expand their territory, they stayed within the boundaries of former Quarian space. As for Alarei, wasn't it Rael'Zorah who assembled new geth from those parts Tali sent him?
3. Yes, I'm not saying that they don't differentiate between organics and creators. But I think they view the Quarians as a unique sub-group of organics and don't make the same differentiation for other races. 
4. "has dealt" instead of "has death" This information comes from Gavin Archer when you talk to him in ME3. This is an excerpt from the wiki: If Shepard allowed David to stay at Project Overlord, Gavin reveals that the data on controlling the geth from Project Overlord was in fact useful, and David eventually calmed down his emotions somewhat but one day just stopped responding to any stimuli at all. Gavin then had to pull the life support plug on David as a mercy killing.
5. I'm not saying it can't be enforced, it certainly can. I'm just saying that this will look like a repeat or a rewrite of the history. It is not really unheard of but does come a little unimaginative. 

Legion's not a fan of this development. The geth consensus is perfectly efficient and in harmony. By comparison organics are chaotic and full of conflict. The idea that the geth may become the same is disturbing to say the least.

1. It's possible, though I think a lie of omission is more likely than an actual lie.
2. I like that movie even though it's almost universally panned. But it actually highlights my point. One of the reasons it was considered ridiculous was becaue of all the improbable things the AI was hacking. Traffic lights, maybe. But cranes? Passing billboards? So many things that would not intuitively be connected to the internet at all. That's why I think the geth weren't completely ubiquitous in quarian society. Yes they were agricultural and houseshold menial and some combat models. But I don't think they were everywhere. And Rael did assemble some parts but I remember a specific quote that as soon as they activated they built x more of themselves. I'll try to find it later.
3. They can differentiate between species. But not dealing with them until now means they've never done so...?
4. Ok, well then they did have death after all   Still I guess there's your precedent for Overlord control failing.
5. Depends what they do with it going forward. Not that I expect quarians and geth to be at the forefront of anything anytime soon. This all started from discussing plausible ways to bring them back. Personally I expect anything from cameo to minor sidequest roles. Certainly not a huge subarc again though

[Vazgen]

Legion's not a fan of this development. The geth consensus is perfectly efficient and in harmony. By comparison organics are chaotic and full of conflict. The idea that the geth may become the same is disturbing to say the least.

1. It's possible, though I think a lie of omission is more likely than an actual lie.
2. I like that movie even though it's almost universally panned. But it actually highlights my point. One of the reasons it was considered ridiculous was becaue of all the improbable things the AI was hacking. Traffic lights, maybe. But cranes? Passing billboards? So many things that would not intuitively be connected to the internet at all. That's why I think the geth weren't completely ubiquitous in quarian society. Yes they were agricultural and houseshold menial and some combat models. But I don't think they were everywhere. And Rael did assemble some parts but I remember a specific quote that as soon as they activated they built x more of themselves. I'll try to find it later.
3. They can differentiate between species. But not dealing with them until now means they've never done so...?
4. Ok, well then they did have death after all   Still I guess there's your precedent for Overlord control failing.
5. Depends what they do with it going forward. Not that I expect quarians and geth to be at the forefront of anything anytime soon. This all started from discussing plausible ways to bring them back. Personally I expect anything from cameo to minor sidequest roles. Certainly not a huge subarc again though

But why does it say that line for this situation specifically? Shepard's line comes right after "What did we do wrong?" and there were other instances of discussing individuality when it does not express the same disturbance. I think there may be more to this. That revelation shows it that the geth are closer to organics than it thought. This thought is what creates the disturbance, not the very thought of organics valuing individuality.

1. Yeah. It might even be that there are no mobile platforms but the geth are still there.
2. You mentioned it yourself. Units worked in agricultural, military, household areas, they'd have access to technology in those sectors. Communicating with the speed of light can result in a simultaneous disastrous strike on quarian infrastructure, throwing them into disarray. We are talking about such highly technological society where cybernetic implantation is considered normal. 
3. What I meant is that the Quarians have unique circumstances. Something like "All organics are the same, but the Quarians are those who created us". The definitions for organics as a whole still apply to the Quarians but they also get unique variables as creators.
4. Yes, it failed, and the geth still didn't break control. That's what I meant, Overlord tech controls the geth, there are no examples of it failing in that department. Operator becoming crazy, sure, but the geth will still be under control.
5. I think so too, though I would love a Quarian squadmate

[FlyingSquirrel]

Does the leak specify when this "ark" mission was launched? If it starts fairly early during the events of ME3, then you could probably at least find a way to include the quarians. The one problem I would see is that it seems like the other races have mostly lost contact with the quarians until Shepard goes to find them, but maybe a few pilgrims find out about the ark mission and are told to ignore the "recall" order and join that mission instead?

[Vortex13]

Does the leak specify when this "ark" mission was launched? If it starts fairly early during the events of ME3, then you could probably at least find a way to include the quarians. The one problem I would see is that it seems like the other races have mostly lost contact with the quarians until Shepard goes to find them, but maybe a few pilgrims find out about the ark mission and are told to ignore the "recall" order and join that mission instead?

 

 

IMO if the ark theory is correct, it should be launched after the Thessia mission, as it not only lines up with what the Asari councilor says, but it also allows for all of the species in the setting to have a chance of making the trip. 

[FlyingSquirrel]

IMO if the ark theory is correct, it should be launched after the Thessia mission, as it not only lines up with what the Asari councilor says, but it also allows for all of the species in the setting to have a chance of making the trip. 

 

That makes some sense, but then you potentially have to tie in whatever Shepard decided to do about the genophage and the geth/quarian war. I tend to think that Bioware wants to make a complete break from the Shepard trilogy, save imports, etc., or they wouldn't be doing an ark storyline in the first place. 

[Vespervin]

I would really like to see the geth and the quarians return. They're the only species besides humanity that I'm fascinated with. I don't mind the other species but I'm not as interested in them as I am with the geth and the quarians.

[dead_goon]

There is no reason why either one, or both for that matter can't return, after all the Rachni returned even after ide consigned the last ever queen to the acid tanks so bring em on I say!.

[SwobyJ]

This is a lot of thread to go over, so I mostly skimmed.

 

Personally, I think its very possible for both to be in the next game. Don't take that as me saying anything further than that basic idea.

 

They don't need to feature. Ever again. (Feature = a story arc or few missions per game just about them)

 

Geth don't need to be an enemy faction. Quarians don't need to be squadmates. We don't need to visit Rannoch (though I'd actually love to). Both can be in the next game under various contexts, have missions they may be involved with, and be species to select in MP. All of the Rannoch outcomes can still happen.

 

I'm especially thinking that if anything of Ark/Andromeda rumor is right, we'd be dealing with a smaller demographic anyway. Rannoch can be whatever - we have our own group now, that may include both Geth and Quarians. A cop out? Yes, but Bioware IMO is often (not always... definitely not always) good with making their cop outs still involve themselves in an interesting story and have us forgive what happened.

 

On a smaller example, Krogan are all but completely confirmed, and we did have the option in ME3 to seemingly set them down a gradual extinction. Rannoch situation and Destroy are rather more complicated, but Quarian fleet destruction doesn't mean all Quarian ships are gone (just that they may have lost replacement numbers and therefore need a solution for that if the species is to survive), and Geth destruction doesn't mean Geth will never happen again (on the contrary, it just means they're open to being rebuilt and rebooted as a synthetic race).

 

Shepard sets up the board for the future - even at the Crucible, he doesn't necessarily have absolute control over all of this, and he isn't necessarily completely wiping out krogan/geth/quarians. 

If the next game does involve a colonization of another region of space, a lot may be set back down to a default anyway. We'll see. In any case, I won't write out either species until Bioware says they're not in.

[BraveVesperia]

I think it would be interesting to have a mutually exclusive squadmate - quarian if Shep supported them, vice versa for geth. Not sure who it would be for peace, but I'd prefer quarian.

 

I know it wouldn't happen, but it would be an interesting bit of replay opportunity, different perspectives and personalities, but a similar role in the story/combat (tech). Plus it would be a way to include them and reflect Shep's choice, even if the rest of the race doesn't have a big role.

[Helios969]

Tali and Legion were two of my personal favorites, but I'd be completely fine moving on without either race.  There is little more either can contribute to a larger story.  Both were integral to the larger Reaper plot (disproving the Catalyst's assertion that organics and synthetics cannot coexist if you went that route.)  And having a Tali/Legion 2.0 doesn't seem like it could contribute much on a more intimate level.  Now something like HK-47 could be hellafun.  "Meat-bags."

[ZoliCs]

Tali and Legion were two of my personal favorites, but I'd be completely fine moving on without either race.  There is little more either can contribute to a larger story.  Both were integral to the larger Reaper plot (disproving the Catalyst's assertion that organics and synthetics cannot coexist if you went that route.)  And having a Tali/Legion 2.0 doesn't seem like it could contribute much on a more intimate level.  Now something like HK-47 could be hellafun.  "Meat-bags."

 

I heared these arguments a lot, but they don't hold any water.

 

1. "There is little more either can contribute to a larger story."

 

Every race's story was ended in Mass Effect 3. Does that mean Asari and Salarians can't contribute to a larger story? Should we leave every race behind (humans included)? Did human history end with World War 2?

 

The answer to all those questions are no. It doesn't matter what happened to the Quarians and the Geth, Bioware can write new story for them.

 

2. "And having a Tali/Legion 2.0 doesn't seem like it could contribute much on a more intimate level."

 

Was Grunt a Wrex 2.0? No. So why would be a new Quarian/Geth companion be Tali/Legion 2.0? I guess you don't want a Turian/Salarian/Asari/Drell companion either because Garrus/Mordin/Liara/Thane 2.0?

 

------------------------------------

I feel like this forum has literally 0 faith in Bioware to make good writing...

[Helios969]

Just my take friend...no need to get upset. Honestly I have a lot of faith in their ability to write good companions. If those races are brought back it should be because they have a good story and not simply for fan service.

[Vortex13]

Just my take friend...no need to get upset. Honestly I have a lot of faith in their ability to write good companions. If those races are brought back it should be because they have a good story and not simply for fan service.

 

 

I agree with this, BioWare is very good at character interaction, it has always been one of their strong suits. World creation is also a strong selling point for their titles, they can make very compelling settings for the player to run around in. I will say that their tendency to 'humanize' everything is an area of discrepancy that they do need to work on though.

 

 

Dragon Age removing or dumbing down its fantasy creatures, Mass Effect removing, killing off, making fun of, or 'fixing' it's alien elements, etc. I want to believe that we will see Andromeda aliens of the same caliber of the Rachni, or (ME 2) Geth, but the established track record of their games favors ditching the weird, non-human things in favor of stuff that we can immediately recognize (i.e. every companion having 'Daddy Issues').