144 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

I understand your dilemma -- it took me a day or three to brood over this choice after trying both outcomes, too. I think both paths have some very touching moments, and both are a bit bittersweet because one side of his being is weakened to strengthen the other. In the end, I went with the spirit path, in no small part because I dislike the humanocentrism of Pinocchio stories, of holding up our own form of existence as superior to everything else and the greatest prize that "lesser" beings could hope to attain. Different does not mean inferior. And I came to truly enjoy the notion of meeting him halfway, in a sense, instead of expecting him to do all the changing and learning on his own. You have to try harder and broaden your mind more to understand a spirit, but I think it can be worth it. Cole certainly is worth it. And the quiet grace of his spirit-path resolution, the way he opened up, reached out and transformed from that wholly shocking rage and bloodlust back into compassion incarnate, honestly brought tears to my eyes. It's among my top moments in this game for certain.

 

Solas has a beautiful (IMO) and passionate plea targeted at preserving Cole as a spirit of compassion, because of how rare a being like Cole truly is in the DA setting. I think there's something to that idea. There's value in growth, in becoming something new. In a way, what bothers me about this scene so very much is that it's not really Cole who's choosing what to become. We've got what Varric wants and his politics, and we have what Solas wants and his politics, and we have the Inquisitor stuck in the middle... but the person whose autonomy is in issue - Cole - doesn't get to decide for himself (itself?). 

 

And I think there's something fundamentally depressing about that fact. Of course if we as the player didn't decide it would suck from a choice/consequence POV. However, it does bother me something fierce that Cole is being dragged. 

[Xilizhra]

Solas has a beautiful (IMO) and passionate plea targeted at preserving Cole as a spirit of compassion, because of how rare a being like Cole truly is in the DA setting. I think there's something to that idea. There's value in growth, in becoming something new. In a way, what bothers me about this scene so very much is that it's not really Cole who's choosing what to become. We've got what Varric wants and his politics, and we have what Solas wants and his politics, and we have the Inquisitor stuck in the middle... but the person whose autonomy is in issue - Cole - doesn't get to decide for himself (itself?). 

 

And I think there's something fundamentally depressing about that fact. Of course if we as the player didn't decide it would suck from a choice/consequence POV. However, it does bother me something fierce that Cole is being dragged. 

Well, from some artifact banter left in the game, if Cole does choose himself, he kills the ex-templar and becomes some kind of compassion/murder hybrid spirit. Which was presumably considered unwise enough that the option to do that was removed from the game.

[In Exile]

Well, from some artifact banter left in the game, if Cole does choose himself, he kills the ex-templar and becomes some kind of compassion/murder hybrid spirit. Which was presumably considered unwise enough that the option to do that was removed from the game.

That's a terrifying thought but sadly I think would have been a good illustration of the possible corrupting influence of human emotions on spirits.

It reminds me of how Justinia" suggested the Nightmare was once a spirit of compassion that wanted to help those suffering from the Blight.

[VelvetV]

Well, from some artifact banter left in the game, if Cole does choose himself, he kills the ex-templar and becomes some kind of compassion/murder hybrid spirit. Which was presumably considered unwise enough that the option to do that was removed from the game.

Just today I did a Qun quest in which Iron Bull chooses the side. Another guy, Gatt, asked Cole if he is a demon, and he said that sometimes he wants to kill people, but he doesn't. That's before the amulet, I'm still undecided, so no guilty templar was found yet, and he already admits that he wants to kill people from time to time. I'm surprised.

 

 

 

Does anybody know what kind of dialogue happens at the end when you don't take Cole to the final battle? I need the one in which he decides that forgetting isn't a solution, is it possible on a spirit path?

[Korva]

I wouldn't want to make someone mortal and susceptible to disease. Human condition is quite misearable, in my opinion, we can't avoid decay of our bodies and physical suffering.

 

Yes, I definitely agree. Not needing food and sleep would be a huge relief, nevermind the issues of aging and disease. Given how much stress the Inquisitor is under from the word go, I think mine frequently finds herself wishing she was more like Cole in that regard so she didn't have to "waste" 6-8 valuable hours a day on sleep when there is so much to be done.

 

 

Btw, I wonder what your opinion on him would be if you read the book... I found out that his character was written by two different writers in the book and the game, and it shows. There's no shred of compassion in him as a book. I prefer to think that he was just extremely corrupt, but I think that his game writer changed his concept deliberately. And that was a great decision.

 

He was extremely corrupt, yes, various banters pretty much state as much. That's the reason why he repeatedly states that you or Cassandra or Cullen must kill him if he ever becomes a demon "again". I think it's also another sign that he knows well enough that remembering pain can sometimes be useful. It fuels his resolve to remain himself.

 

I've never been a fan of game-franchise fiction for various reasons, but if I had to take a guess, I think I wouldn't like Cole nearly as much during Asunder as I do now. Even without having read the book, it's clear he's come a long way since then. How much is he even recognizable as the same person?

 

 

Oh yes, it was hard, I agree. Cole still wipes himself from main char's memory even if not threatened, though. In the video I watched the char was regretful and begged him to stay, but he looked at her angrily, in a "You're so awful!" way, and performed a memory wipe. Well, maybe he thought he'd be detained? Or pursued? That would make sense.

 

That is what I meant by "who knows what the Inquisitor would do", yes. I like the fact that this character who is so ... almost pliant at times when he is with people he likes and trust, and apparently has no ego at all, is still allowed to stand up for himself and leave if the Inquisitor manages to tick him off so much.

 

 

But that's another point you convinced me in (on? of? sorry, English isn't native for me, and I feel like I can't find a correct way to say it, probably it's "of").

 

Off, yes, and don't worry! I'm not a native speaker either, but I think we're both doing just fine. A lot of folks here aren't native speakers.

 

 

The reason why I can't agree with Cole and forgetting (especially in the templar case) is because I went through therapy myself and now I have some preconceptions about how it works. Not a lot can be worked out by forgetting, the perception of events needs to be changed. It definitely did happen in the templar case.

 

Yes, and that is the only time he uses the forgetting that way on another person. I don't think he could/would have done it otherwise, since it's the ex-templar's crushing guilt and sorrow that makes Cole react the way he does. If there was no remorse, no change, no pain pinging his empathy-radar ... I don't know how that confrontation would have gone.

 

If someone like Cole wipes both sets of ideas, the one that caused you trauma and the one that resolved it, what happens? I can only assume that you revert back to who you were before the event.

 

But again, he doesn't do that. The ex-templar still knows he that he left because he couldn't live with himself anymore. It sounds like the White Spire was one of the Circles where the system had truly failed and turned nasty in a big way, so even if that man can no longer recall the overwhelming horror of the original Cole's death, there's probably still plenty of "this is wrong, I can't support and uphold this any longer" left.

 

 

Unfortunately, I realize that me and Cole's writer disagree on that point, and there's not much to be done about it.

 

Ah, I do see your problem now. My opinion/experience is different, but that hardly invalidates yours. If the disagreement weighs heavily enough that trying to get into this character in this way, then it's probably true that nothing much can be done about it. I've had moments of "hold on, this really doesn't make sense to me" when playing games or reading/watching a non-interactive story, too. Sometimes I manage to suspend the reaction and accept that this is how it works in this case and setting, sometimes it really throws me out of the story too much.

 

 

Well, he didn't feel compassion, he wanted to kill him, and if left to his own devices, he would kill him. So I think we're imposing more in case we decide to advise him to forgive in that case.

 

It's a weakness of this quest -- which I do enjoy otherwise -- that we do impose either way, yes. I and many others have expressed unease about discussing and deciding Cole's fate with Solas and Varric as if he wasn't even there. It could have been handled better for sure. At any rate, Cole needs only a little gentle urging from Solas to open up again and revert from rage to full-on compassion, so the imposition in this case probably isn't too big.

 

 

Forgiving and killing are two extremes that a spirit would go to, since anger would corrupt him and turn him to killing, so I think the whole point of the human choice in that scene was to teach Cole alternative methods to cope with anger, methods that would allow him not to fall into a killing mode like a spirit would fall in to. An ability to feel anger and not be affected by it like a spirit. I'm still puzzled as to how easily that was possible in the game.

 

That doesn't really convince me, though, because it's not like humans don't go off-the-rails berserk or commit horrible sadistic crimes all the time. Nor is there a single universally applicable or predictable "default human" reaction. There's no "this is the correct way for a human to handle this" -- that would be bloody presumptuous. No survivor of abuse should be bullied into forgiving, but they shouldn't be told they're not allowed to, either, which it kind of feels like what Varric is doing. If anything, a spirit who is strongly and safely grounded in its nature is probably more stable and less likely to succumb to an emotion that conflicts with that nature. A spirit who isn't safely grounded that way due to some kind of trauma is in danger ... but a human whose mental stability was shot to hell is likewise fragile.

 

I do agree that is is weird that this is possible out of the blue like this, but maybe that's typical video game writing. Character development can be really rushed and really extreme at times, and when both go together you get WTF-potential like with Leliana.

 

On which path is that, human or spirit? If spirit, that would be lovely, that is the kind of progression I hoped for the game to offer for a spirit path.

 

Spirit, yes. Sorry for not being clear, I usually try to remember to make it obvious whether I'm talking about more-a-spirit or more-human Cole, but since the thread is mainly about your problems with the former, I forgot to do that.

[Korva]

Just mention that a lot of times when he says to "forget" he is not telling them to forget what was bothering them but to forget who it was who helped them come to terms with it.    So the person will think they came to that place on their own and thus be stronger for it, rather than knowing that some stranger walked up and started talking to them about their private thoughts, which would likely leave them very disturbed.

 

Very good point! I think it is an obvious one, but in case not everyone agrees, it's definitely worth pointint out.

 

 

Also when I had Solas in my party with Cole, he said how Cole was a rare spirit in the world (because of his compassion)  and how important it was for him to continue.

 

Yes, that was a beautiful banter. These two have many fantastic ones and are definitely my favourite banter duo. Cole brings out a side in Solas that nothing else can, which helps balance Solas' occasional... less pleasant tendencies and attitudes.

 

 

 

When he showed such an anger and need for vengeance against the Templar, I thought we were going to lose that compassion if I allowed him to continue.

 

That was absolutely shocking to me because it was so unexpected, so utterly unlike his normal self.. Combined with being certain that he'd make his own worst fear come true and break himself into a demon if we didn't stop him ... it made for a very disturbing and tense time.

 

At any rate, the writers stated that there was originally going to be an option to do nothing and let Cole kill the templar in a really, really gory and ugly way. With predictable results. Thankfully they axed that option because they felt it conflicted with the theme of the character too much. I'm always glad when devs don't put in an "evil" moment just for kicks and giggles.

 

And I think there's something fundamentally depressing about that fact. Of course if we as the player didn't decide it would suck from a choice/consequence POV. However, it does bother me something fierce that Cole is being dragged. 

 

Yes, I agree. It felt really weird and wrong to just stand there and debate while this beloved friend is in so much pain and immediate danger of losing himself. I tried to imagine how the scene could have been handled differently to make it less jarring, while still preserving a branching path. If the more spirit/more human outcome had depended on how we previously influenced Cole ... it could have been better, but it could have been a lore worse, too. Case in point: Leliana. Two arbitrarily chosen moments decide what she will do, nothing else matters at all, and if you don't hit the target in both of these moments, enter Stabby McMurderpope. As bad as it is to debate Cole's fate over his head while he just stands there, I'll still take that scene over Leliana's quest any day.

[VelvetV]

How much is he even recognizable as the same person?

Not much. The main difference is lack of compassion as motivation, of course, it isn't somewhere distorted and corrupt in the background, it doesn't show at all. He doesn't think of it, ever, except the hint of initially having come to this word for the real Cole. And I'd say that the personality itself is different. In the book Cole is lonely and clingy, to the point of feeling betrayed and punishing Rhys by childishly avoiding him after Rhys couldn't visit him as often as before. He gives off a fragile and vulnerable feel (not "adorably awkward" like in the game), hugs Rhys, cries at his shoulder, etc. He ends up commiting murders out of loneliness (when people die they can see him for some reason). And the last murder was pure revenge. On the contrary, DA:I-Cole is pretty confident and self-contained, I never noticed any misery streaks in him or complaints about loneliness. He doesn't jump into our char's arms like a lost puppy and doesn't obsess over how our char feels about him. In a way, Book-Cole is more of a friend, he's capable of feeling protective of a friend out of friendship, rather than out of wanting to help a good guy. That is a feature that I find positive, but Game-Cole lacks it, he's a lot more detached and bonds are something he doesn't appreciate all that terribly much.

 

In the game he says that Rhys couldn't accept him, but in the book I'm pretty sure Rhys had no problem, even though it's possible I misunderstood something. To me it looked like in the book Cole couldn't accept himself and thus punished himself by fleeing from Rhys. He wanted too much to be human and feared too much that he'd turn out to be unreal, so for him to discover his unreal nature was a tragedy in itself. Game-Cole, as we all know, doesn't care for his nature.

 

The ex-templar still knows he that he left because he couldn't live with himself anymore. It sounds like the White Spire was one of the Circles where the system had truly failed and turned nasty in a big way, so even if that man can no longer recall the overwhelming horror of the original Cole's death, there's probably still plenty of "this is wrong, I can't support and uphold this any longer" left.

 

 

 

I like this reasoning. It makes me feel that the situation is a little less bad for a templar. I would like it more if his specific memories considerably faded, though, rather than were wiped out.

 

It's a weakness of this quest -- which I do enjoy otherwise -- that we do impose either way, yes. I and many others have expressed unease about discussing and deciding Cole's fate with Solas and Varric as if he wasn't even there. It could have been handled better for sure. At any rate, Cole needs only a little gentle urging from Solas to open up again and revert from rage to full-on compassion, so the imposition in this case probably isn't too big.

 

Unfortunately, many quests are like that. Like choice in the Fade. Why on earth couldn't they choose on their own, did you really need to chirp in? I don't imagine they'd even listen...

 

I think in such cases choice isn't really supposed to feel like a choice made by a main char. It's more like making a narrative choice. Something just happens, or is caused by choice of a few characters other than main char, and you're allowed to make a narrative choice or a choice for other characters. My issue is not how narrative choices sticks out, but more about awkward wording and lack of information. Sometimes you look at your options and have only a subtle idea what each one means. Sometimes you click one and your char says something you wanted to avoid. And sometimes choices are underwhelming and senseless. Why do you need to choose in the Fade, just for drama?

 

I do agree that is is weird that this is possible out of the blue like this, but maybe that's typical video game writing. Character development can be really rushed and really extreme at times, and when both go together you get WTF-potential like with Leliana.

 

I wonder if you mean nice Leliana turning into a ruthless cutt-throat, or vice versa? I definitely was surprised after I accidentally "softened" her. Her sudden change seemed so out of character and it really looked like reasons for it were not nearly enough. Especially since after that I went to a war table and saw missions in which Leliana offered to slaughter people, like nothing happened. I even reloaded and will probably harden her instead! It was really a good idea to give her absolution, but it felt so random. I find it unrealistic that such a cold assassin would turn into a saint overnight only because her mother figure regretted making her kill.

 

 

Spirit, yes. Sorry for not being clear, I usually try to remember to make it obvious whether I'm talking about more-a-spirit or more-human Cole, but since the thread is mainly about your problems with the former, I forgot to do that.

Awesome! In that case I'm finally decided on the spirit path! I wonder if I miss out on anything if I don't take Cole into the final battle, though? Should I replay the battle later? With all his fears of being bound by Corypheus, I'd love to see if something actually happens. And if not, then it was a good red herring.

 

Btw, I saw what you wrote about the third option in Solas-Varric amulet dialogue, and I think it wouldn't be as bad if we had it. At least Cole going berserk and crazy would make our choice meaningful and would remove the awkward feeling that we force it on him. I mean, if you see that you absolutely have to force something on a person, in order to help prevent the more horrible thing, then it feels helpful rather than imposing. And we'd have at least one unexpected and tragic thing happen in the game

[SgtSteel91]

I like "more real" Cole. I believe if you want to help humans, it helps to think like them. And I agree with him when he says that having people remember that there is someone out there who cares about you helps. I also like the way Cole interacts with Varric and the Inquisitor in this path. And the final battle where Cole no-sells Corypheus trying to bind him.

[andy6915]

You know, him becoming human might not actually mean he'll truly become mortal. It's possible that him "dying" would simply send him to the fade as true spirit again.

[midnight tea]

I'm always conflicted about this choice - neither is better or worse than the other, all things considered. The spirit form retains its purity and innocence, while the human form grows and learn to possibly become human in the future and understand complexity of life.

And I'm not really that bothered about ultimately us being the ones to choose the option - like any other companion, Cole is unable to choose on his own and needs their friends to help and give him a little push, like in many other personal quests for companions (or, let's face it, real life).

 

How is that different from Cole helping other people forget about their pain, by helping them shake off hurts that stall them and then forget all about him?

 

And since I mention that... keep in mind that, in a sense, Inquisitor - the good, likable Inquisitor, at least - is kind of like Cole; he or she takes his/her time to help companions deal with their problems and grow. One does not need to be a spirit of compassion to be compassionate; and since they're fully developed humans (well... elves/dwarfs/mortals/whatever) and understand people better, they can help them in a way Cole can't.

[Phalaenopsis]

The choice for Cole's future is indeed difficult although it has been very clear to me I'd choose the "human" way, right from the start. 

 

I read Asunder (and loved it!) after playing DA:I just to learn more about Cole who's my favourite character. And it seemed to me, just as someone said, in the book he acted like a lost child. He didn't understand...almost anything, why he was here, who he was, why people couldn't see him unless he was just about to kill them, etc. His reactions towards Rhys are indeed very childish.

 

Game-Cole is very different, grown, he definitely knows what he wants: to help.

But there are two very important things (to me). 1: As he states himself if you choose the human path (and as someone said here too):now he understands how the human mind works better and his way of helping is more "appropriate".

And 2: in the very beginning, at the White Spire HE chose to become "human". He says in a banter with Varric that he thought that was the shape best fit to help. No spirit had done that before (or so it seems) and I think we should respect his primary choice. Making him more spirit-like would be like erasing any progress he's made in trying to understand better and improving himself in what he loves doing: helping (it's the teacher in me speaking here!!).

 

Also, I'm a mum, and I see his quest on the human path just as a quest for growing. I love thinking that in the future, human-Cole maybe able to learn, grow, improve, taste and enjoy food/drinks, and eventually, fall in love. As a parent you know that giving life is also giving death. That's how life is. And if Cole accepted that in the first place, at the White Spire, and made that choice, I would give him the chance to live it out.

 

P.S: I'm not a native English speaker either so sorry for my mistakes.

[Xilizhra]

I've never found this to be a terribly difficult choice: I'm behind the spirit path all the way. He's happier, overall truer to himself, and remains a more unique and less burdened being.

 

1: As he states himself if you choose the human path (and as someone said here too):now he understands how the human mind works better and his way of helping is more "appropriate".

His methods as a spirit still work fine.

 

And 2: in the very beginning, at the White Spire HE chose to become "human". He says in a banter with Varric that he thought that was the shape best fit to help. No spirit had done that before (or so it seems) and I think we should respect his primary choice. Making him more spirit-like would be like erasing any progress he's made in trying to understand better and improving himself in what he loves doing: helping (it's the teacher in me speaking here!!).

What Cole is is a spirit, not a human, and humanity is deeply overrated. Cole's shape remains fitting, after all, regardless of the path here.

 

Also, I'm a mum, and I see his quest on the human path just as a quest for growing. I love thinking that in the future, human-Cole maybe able to learn, grow, improve, taste and enjoy food/drinks, and eventually, fall in love. As a parent you know that giving life is also giving death. That's how life is. And if Cole accepted that in the first place, at the White Spire, and made that choice, I would give him the chance to live it out.

Spirits have life.

[Phalaenopsis]

See? That's what's wonderful with this game. You can see/interpret things completely differently depending on your personality or experience, etc...

 

I don't think there's a wrong or right choice here anyway. You just need to choose what you think is best for Cole according to your headcanon knowing there will be drawbacks and advantages in any case.

 

Sorry, I'm not being very helpful here... *Cole slightly disapproves* hehe ;-)

[midnight tea]

 

His methods as a spirit still work fine.

 

That's debatable. You just have to listen to banters like the one between Cassandra and Cole, where she says that him killing previous Lord Seeker only made mages look worse and aggravated the situation. Cole just doesn't understand that the world isn't as simple as he thinks it is and doesn't get that his behavior had serious repercussions. And if he remains spirit, he likely never will.

 

 

What Cole is is a spirit, not a human, and humanity is deeply overrated. Cole's shape remains fitting, after all, regardless of the path here.

 

Yet, according to Solas, Cole has a capacity to become fully human. What that means that spirits who develop enough personality (like Cole) don't have to be just spirits, but become something more complex. In fact, it may be how "evolution" of sentient beings may work in Thedas.

 

 

Spirits have life.

 

Nnnnnot really. Solas (again) explains that spirit 'life' is in actually "peaceful semi-existence". So they ARE sentient creatures with at least a potential to grow and change (although such spirits are a rarity), but they don't really live; they kinda exist. Life - and living a life - appears to be something restricted to Thedas.

[Xilizhra]

That's debatable. You just have to listen to banters like the one between Cassandra and Cole, where she says that him killing previous Lord Seeker only made mages look worse and aggravated the situation. Cole just doesn't understand that the world isn't as simple as he thinks it is and doesn't get that his behavior had serious repercussions. And if he remains spirit, he likely never will.

Killing the previous Lord Seeker seems to have blunted the templars' advance and probably helped the mages out greatly. In any case, that was in his corrupt state.

 

 

Yet, according to Solas, Cole has a capacity to become fully human. What that means that spirits who develop enough personality (like Cole) don't have to be just spirits, but become something more complex. In fact, it may be how "evolution" of sentient beings may work in Thedas.

It's possible, but I'm not going to experiment on one of my team without proof. In any case, complexity is hardly necessarily better.

 

 

Nnnnnot really. Solas (again) explains that spirit 'life' is in actually "peaceful semi-existence". So they ARE sentient creatures with at least a potential to grow and change (although such spirits are a rarity), but they don't really live; they kinda exist. Life - and living a life - appears to be something restricted to Thedas.

"Peaceful semi-existence" is their state when they're just hanging around in the Fade and haven't been defined very well yet. Cole is both quite defined and in the physical world.

[midnight tea]

Killing the previous Lord Seeker seems to have blunted the templars' advance and probably helped the mages out greatly. In any case, that was in his corrupt state.

 

Not according to Cassandra, and she has a really good grasp of the whole situation.

 

Also - corrupted or not, Cole still didn't understand that what he did had its consequences.

 

 

It's possible, but I'm not going to experiment on one of my team without proof. In any case, complexity is hardly necessarily better.

 

Either way he's being "experimented" on - as in, his fate isn't certain.

 

Complexity isn't necessarily better (nor I'm arguing that it is - I'm 50/50 on this choice), but so is simplicity. Should I even remind you how easily he forgot about Cole, when he identified it as hurt that he needs to heal? What stops him from forgetting all of his experience with Inquisition and then repeat history - only next time he might not be so lucky to find people who will have good influence on him and he'd end up being a demon. Or what if he goes back to the Fade and then he'd end up forcibly summoned, like spirit of wisdom (and she was described to be a remarkably powerful spirit in a codex)?

 

Either way, there's a trade-off.

 

 

"Peaceful semi-existence" is their state when they're just hanging around in the Fade and haven't been defined very well yet. Cole is both quite defined and in the physical world.

 

So you yourself admit that he's not a simple spirit then, but more akin to someone caught up in-between?? And that his experience and life is unique to himself?

[Xilizhra]

Not according to Cassandra, and she has a really good grasp of the whole situation.

 

Also - corrupted or not, Cole still didn't understand that what he did had its consequences.

He can still understand that as a spirit.

 

 

Either way he's being "experimented" on - as in, his fate isn't certain.

 

Complexity isn't necessarily better (nor I'm arguing that it is - I'm 50/50 on this choice), but so is simplicity. Should I even remind you how easily he forgot about Cole, when he identified it as hurt that he needs to heal? What stops him from forgetting all of his experience with Inquisition and then repeat history - only next time he might not be so lucky to find people who will have good influence on him and he'd end up being a demon. Or what if he goes back to the Fade and then he'd end up forcibly summoned, like spirit of wisdom (and she was described to be a remarkably powerful spirit in a codex)?

 

Either way, there's a trade-off.

Does he ever indicate that he'd leave the Inquisition?

 

 

So you yourself admit that he's not a simple spirit then, but more akin to someone caught up in-between?? And that his experience and life is unique to himself?

I admit neither. He's like any spirit that's been in the world for a significant length of time, aside from being addled by the experience of Cole's death, and that can be cured.

[midnight tea]

He can still understand that as a spirit.

 

Do we have proof of that? No. So far we only have evidence that he DOESN'T understand that. That's not to say that Cole can't learn things, he obviously can - but apparently not to learn things beyond certain level of complexity.

 

 

Does he ever indicate that he'd leave the Inquisition?

 

Yep, he does. During the banquet he says he's so light he can slip to the Fade easily - he indicates that he wants to stay for a while, but it likely won't be forever (and it can't - unlike Cole, Inquisition isn't eternal). We also don't know what fate awaits the Inquisition - what if it's destroyed? And what if Cole will have no choice on the matter? While wearing the Amulet of the Unbound no mage can't bind him, but that doesn't mean something else can't happen to him (after all, we learn that people like Solas CAN affect him and make him forget about things, and we have no idea who else possesses such abilities). Plus, with all the things that happen to the Veil (and likely will continue happening) we have no idea how further it's going to affect him in spirit form.

 

Either way, there are going to be risks. Spirit form doesn't keep him safer from harm, nor happier in the long term.

 

 

I admit neither. He's like any spirit that's been in the world for a significant length of time, aside from being addled by the experience of Cole's death, and that can be cured.

 

Then why does Solas - an expert on the Fade and spirits - says that Cole is unique? Obviously things that happen to Cole don't happen often to spirits, at least in modern Thedas.

[VelvetV]

Oh curses, I've decided what to do, but reading this thread makes me feel doubt.

 

You people are so convincing!

 

One thing that bothers me is that if I choose one option, party banter will probably change to accomodate it. I'd love to hear both sides of the story in banter, but I'm pretty sure I'll never replay this game, so there's only room for one.

[midnight tea]

You can read the party banter either on DA wiki (http://dragonage.wik...i/Cole/Dialogue - there may not be all, but most is there) or just search it on youtube (though that one is more scattered).

[Korva]

First off, I need to apologize -- I overlooked the fact that you apparently haven't finished the game yet, and some things I wrote before are ... very spoiler-ridden. I hope it didn't ruin anything.

 

Not much. (snip)

 

Yeah ... that meshes with what I've heard before, and I doubt I would have liked the character then. It sounds like he lacks pretty much everything I love about the person he is in this game. Still, it shows how much strength he has -- he "fell" so far and managed to recover from it bit by bit, and utterly on his own too before he meets us. I think people underestimate that strength at times, partly because he is still "wounded" and on that slow road of recovery, partly because quiet strength and gentleness often isn't appreciated as strength (as opposed to aggression and ruthlessness).

 

On the contrary, DA:I-Cole is pretty confident and self-contained, I never noticed any misery streaks in him or complaints about loneliness. He doesn't jump into our char's arms like a lost puppy and doesn't obsess over how our char feels about him. In a way, Book-Cole is more of a friend, he's capable of feeling protective of a friend out of friendship, rather than out of wanting to help a good guy. That is a feature that I find positive, but Game-Cole lacks it, he's a lot more detached and bonds are something he doesn't appreciate all that terribly much.

 

Hmm, I disagree. I think he is definitely capable of valuing people as friends and enjoying their company. He's glad to spend time with you when his approval is up -- his two high-approval greetings when talking to him at Skyhold are so warm and happy that they make me feel warm and happy every time, too. Still, especially as more of a spirit, he's definitely not someone you can just have for yourself. Have you seen the spirit-side dinner cutscene yet? (There's spoiler territory again, heh.) His kindness and caring and ever-active special empathy are universal, not merely limited to those close to him, and having him for a friend is probably a bit like living with a doctor who is always on call, 24/7 and 365 days a year. You never know when he will have to rush off to treat an emergency. I like that, actually. Someone who wants a "just the two of us against the world" type of relationship likely wouldn't.

 

I like this reasoning. It makes me feel that the situation is a little less bad for a templar. I would like it more if his specific memories considerably faded, though, rather than were wiped out.

 

I can see a use for total forgetting, but the thought "merely" blunting painful memories and emotions does feel better in a sense, yes. Again, the dinner cutscene has something that I think relates to him doing that, too.

 

Unfortunately, many quests are like that. Like choice in the Fade. Why on earth couldn't they choose on their own, did you really need to chirp in? I don't imagine they'd even listen...

 

Agreed. Both the Fade choice and the choice of Cole's fate also have the issue of breaking the pacing of the scene. It's like someone hit the pause button just so we can babble a bit while the Nightmare demon and Cole wait politely on the sidelines for no explicable reason.

 

I think in such cases choice isn't really supposed to feel like a choice made by a main char. It's more like making a narrative choice.

 

Sadlly, yes. I mean, sure, we need player input since (good) games are not passively consumed by an uninvolved person, but when done badly it tends to break immersion rather than encourage it.

 

My issue is not how narrative choices sticks out, but more about awkward wording and lack of information. Sometimes you look at your options and have only a subtle idea what each one means. Something just happens, or is caused by choice of a few characters other than main char, and you're allowed to make a narrative choice or a choice for other characters.  Sometimes you click one and your char says something you wanted to avoid.

 

Don't get me started on my loathing for the dialog wheel and its uninformative and frequently-misleading options!

 

And sometimes choices are underwhelming and senseless. Why do you need to choose in the Fade, just for drama?

 

Most likely. If memory serves, the writers have pretty much stated that some choices and developments are written for just that reason.

 

I wonder if you mean nice Leliana turning into a ruthless cutt-throat, or vice versa?

 

As you said, her "softening" is way too sudden and has no impact outside her personal quest and potentially the epilogue. Too many NPC developments happen in a vaccum like that. Plus, it hinges purely on two entirely arbitrary moments. And this is the second time we end up in control of her personality. It makes her look like an unstable powderkeg that shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a position of power over others, and whose "softening" I can't trust to be permanent or even longer-lasting because she has simply flip-flopped too much before.

 

Awesome! In that case I'm finally decided on the spirit path! I wonder if I miss out on anything if I don't take Cole into the final battle, though?

 

Not really. There is a very brief exchange between him and Corypheus, that's all. I know I will feel bad about not bringing him the next time since he never leaves my party otherwise, but when I comparing the two possible conversations at the victory party, I honestly have to say that the version you get when he wasn't in the group for the final battle is a lot better because it offers more insight into him. In my opinion, of course.

 

Btw, I saw what you wrote about the third option in Solas-Varric amulet dialogue, and I think it wouldn't be as bad if we had it. At least Cole going berserk and crazy would make our choice meaningful and would remove the awkward feeling that we force it on him.

 

Aside from cringing at the thought of such a scene, my second big objection to it is that it would not only destroy Cole, but also really "damage" Solas' and Varric's characters. They both care a lot for our spirit buddy, and know that letting him murder that templar in a fit of rage and bloodlust would be very bad for him. Solas in particular, due to his vast knowledge of spirits. Also, while both of these characters have their flaws, they're not willfully cruel, so I honestly can't imagine them standing by and twiddling their thumbs while Cole tortures that man to death in front of their eyes.

[Korva]

And 2: in the very beginning, at the White Spire HE chose to become "human". He says in a banter with Varric that he thought that was the shape best fit to help. No spirit had done that before (or so it seems) and I think we should respect his primary choice.

 

What he wanted was to save the original Cole, and when that failed, he (disastrously) tried to become him. That "primary choice" was not about being being human for its own sake, and it can't be respected because it's impossible. The first Cole is dead and gone, "our" Cole isn't him and can't live a broken shadow-life aping that boy.

 

Cole as we meet him in-game is not in denial about being a Fade-creature, nor does he express desire to be something else when his nature is questioned in banters. The closest he ever comes to saying what he wants is, "Or spirit. I want it to be spirit" when Blackwall more or less accuses him of being a demon in one of their earliest conversations.

 

Of course, what he wants above all else is to help and not to be a danger to innocent people, and either outcome of his quest can satisfy him in that regard.

 

Spirits have life.

 

The ones that gain a sense of self certainly do, yes. It really does bother me how it's never possible to counter the harmful notion that he's "not real" or something other than a "person", both with Cole himself and with Varric. Soles and a sympathetic, not thoughtlessly humanocentric Inquisitor could certainly do that. Just because Cole isn't exactly like us does not make his existence less valuable. He's sentient, self-aware, articulate, that's more than enough to be a person. And his sheer kindness makes him a better person than most.

 

Reserving the term exclusively for mortals "others" and degrades the self-aware spirits, and certainly Cole, in a really uncomfortable way. It's no surprise that most people, prejudiced and ignorant and fearful as they are, do that, but I'd like to be able to oppose it. Talking to Solas and interacting with Cole himself --  especially if he helped the Inquisitor against Envy -- definitely has the potential to educate the Inquisitor and encourage her to open her mind a bit. Or a lot.

[VelvetV]

You can read the party banter either on DA wiki (http://dragonage.wik...i/Cole/Dialogue - there may not be all, but most is there) or just search it on youtube (though that one is more scattered).

Thanks.

 

I have an issue, though, there's no party banter in my game anymore. They kept chattering like chatterboxes before that, but now suddenly everyone is silent. I heard that such a glitch happens to some people, but I never thought my game would glitch like that after everything was alright for so long

 

Well, I heard most of banter, judging by that page. And it's somewhat surprising that only Cassandra has a lot to say after the spirit\human choice. A few others only comment in case of a human choice. I guess I'm not missing much.

 

What about cutscenes? Are there any choice-related cutscenes in the game, apart from Val Royeux cafe and the final cutscene I saw on youtube (on the battlements)?

[VelvetV]

First off, I need to apologize -- I overlooked the fact that you apparently haven't finished the game yet, and some things I wrote before are ... very spoiler-ridden. I hope it didn't ruin anything.

 

Don't worry, it's fine!

 

I think he is definitely capable of valuing people as friends and enjoying their company. He's glad to spend time with you when his approval is up -- his two high-approval greetings when talking to him at Skyhold are so warm and happy that they make me feel warm and happy every time, too.

 

 

Yep, he does express that he's happy to see you, but I was comparing with a book. He's so incomparably more attached to Rhys there than to anyone in the game. He wanted to protect him all the time, he felt bad if Rhys didn't talk to him for a while. That was so very touching.

 

 

 

Still, especially as more of a spirit, he's definitely not someone you can just have for yourself. Have you seen the spirit-side dinner cutscene yet? (There's spoiler territory again, heh.) His kindness and caring and ever-active special empathy are universal, not merely limited to those close to him, and having him for a friend is probably a bit like living with a doctor who is always on call, 24/7 and 365 days a year. You never know when he will have to rush off to treat an emergency. I like that, actually. Someone who wants a "just the two of us against the world" type of relationship likely wouldn't.

 

 

I've seen both Val Royeux cutscenes. And I wouldn't want someone so helpful to only help me, of course. That would remove his most prominent personality feature, the very reason I like him

 

However, I remember that when you turn Cole into a full spirit and come to talk afterwards, he expresses an opinion that your questions are shackles, but still he will reply, because you've been so kind. That rubbed me wrong, almost like a send-off. That doesn't sound like something a friend would say. It sounds like someone largely detached would say, someone who doesn't want any kind of friendships or relationships at all.

 

Both the Fade choice and the choice of Cole's fate also have the issue of breaking the pacing of the scene. It's like someone hit the pause button just so we can babble a bit while the Nightmare demon and Cole wait politely on the sidelines for no explicable reason.

 

 

I wonder if the game would be better if they employed Telltale strategy and created a time limit for choosing? Although what would the default choice be, in case a player would fail to choose? How about random?

 

As you said, her "softening" is way too sudden and has no impact outside her personal quest and potentially the epilogue. Too many NPC developments happen in a vaccum like that. Plus, it hinges purely on two entirely arbitrary moments. And this is the second time we end up in control of her personality. It makes her look like an unstable powderkeg that shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a position of power over others, and whose "softening" I can't trust to be permanent or even longer-lasting because she has simply flip-flopped too much before.

 

I'm glad you think so! Now I know I'm not alone. I keep laying that quest aside, because I don't know what to do. Softening Leliana looks unrealistic, and yet my main char has always been very kind to everyone.  It would disrupt her consistency of character if she suddenly tells Leliana to kill that man. I can't even see a single reason to do so. So the sister is a spy, so what? It's not like she got anything or is important enough to kill her. Leliana is just being irrationally bloodthirsty.

 

I honestly have to say that the version you get when he wasn't in the group for the final battle is a lot better because it offers more insight into him. In my opinion, of course.

 

 

Is there any reason for such a difference? Does that brief exchange with Corypheus influence Cole somewhat, changing the final conversation later?

 

Also, while both of these characters have their flaws, they're not willfully cruel, so I honestly can't imagine them standing by and twiddling their thumbs while Cole tortures that man to death in front of their eyes.

 

 

Well.. Cole can be fast. Very fast. And invisible. He could leap to the man and put a dagger in his heart within a second. I can picture them being unable to stop him on time, especially if they took their time to argue how.

 

It wouldn't be a great option, but I'm still curious as to how the developers imagined it would play out. A compassion\murder spirit doesn't even sound possible. Would he be bipolar? And without turning into a crazy demon? Maybe it was removed because it didn't sound logical enough.

[Amne YA]

Human always  fear anything different of them or think in another way ... 
you impose him to leave like you wish , to be more like you 
while he always been a spirit , he should  remain what he is and not what you want him to be 
humans are so selfish