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[Phalaenopsis]

I've been amused the same way whenever donning a new armor on Cole. His original clothes he conjured on his own, but this... is it like a walking suit of armor , or is he capable of transfroming physical things into a spirit-like form?

Actually it is said that he didn't conjure his original clothes. You can hear it in a banter with Dorian:

• Dorian: Cole, are those real clothes, or-?
• Cole: They're real. What else would they be?
• Dorian: I thought maybe you'd conjured them, like your physical form.
• Cole: Do you conjure yours? Is that why they look like that?
• Dorian: Never mind, forget I said anything.

On the other hand I found it strange he didn't know Cullen's armor could come off during the Wicked Grace cutscene. Doesn't he take off his own clothes before putting on his fighting gear?? (or to take a bath once in a while... ><)

[VelvetV]

Plus, Bioware has this old issue of making PC/NPC bonds feel awfully one-sided because we do all the emotional work and support and showing of curiosity but basically get none of that in return. Which is ... really glaring when the NPC in question is a hyper-empathic, literal embodiment of compassion who fusses over everyone else's hurts but not ours. So if the bond feels lacking at times, I blame it more on lazy video game writing.

 

Good point. I haven't been paying attention to that before. It would surely be nice if some characters took interest in our main char, too, although our char is such a blank slate that it would be difficult, she would require being someone more defined for that. I wonder if that's the reason it isn't happening.

 

But yeah, judging by how my heart was touched when Cassandra said "What can I do for you, my friend?" as a greeting, it would be even more amazing if our char had her own "personal quest", too, and some characters could react at least to what happens in it and ask questions about our char's thoughts on it.

 

Yeah, I did a double-take at that, too, but his happiness and gratitude in one of the following lines and in the Val Royeaux scene dispelled that worry for me. He's kind of right, too -- questions can be shackles (that is what he actually says). Questions that try to pin him down and vivisect him, treating him more like a magical curiosity or a thing to be exploited than a sentient being with his own will. Questions that are more of an "I know you're a demon/monster/parasite" interrogation.

 

Oops, so I did that in the wrong order. I first went to Val Royeux, because I wondered "What would that new option do?!", and then I was met with "your questions are shackles" attitude. Bad, bad Cole...

 

Seriously, though, I suspect his writer read a book, envisioned a slightly changed character and pictured his future as a human path, that's why spirit path has such odd jarring moments. I don't think that someone who felt attached to this particular option would make him so distant, even for one moment, as that one line about shackles suggests. And I read spoilers about our char leaving him on the battlements, the scene that rubs everyone wrong. Well, the writer clearly didn't like him being a spirit, if he could imagine himself just turning his back on him silently and walking out! Too bad. But I really think that all these small things suggest a bias that prevented a writer to write equally well as on the human path, so they should be overlooked as such. It's a shame, though.

[VelvetV]

2 Phalaenopsis

Actually it is said that he didn't conjure his original clothes. You can hear it in a banter with Dorian:

• Dorian: Cole, are those real clothes, or-?
• Cole: They're real. What else would they be?
• Dorian: I thought maybe you'd conjured them, like your physical form.
• Cole: Do you conjure yours? Is that why they look like that?
• Dorian: Never mind, forget I said anything.

 

•  

From this banter I made a conclusion that we don't know if he conjured his clothes or not. He evaded the question! And this line, haha, it had me cracking: "Do you conjure yours? Is that why they look like that?" Like what, exactly... Poor Dorian, even a demon thinks that his clothes are weird.

 

On the other hand I found it strange he didn't know Cullen's armor could come off during the Wicked Grace cutscene. Doesn't he take off his own clothes before putting on his fighting gear?? (or to take a bath once in a while... ><)

 

 

Cole bathes? Seriously?

 

I don't know, I figured that if he doesn't eat or sleep, then his body doesn't function as a normal body and wouldn't produce odours. On another hand, it bleeds... But then again, there was banter about it with Dorian who asked if Cole bleeds just because he thinks he should, and again Cole evaded the question in a similar manner. Although I suppose evasion is just my interpretation, I can see that you interprete a similar case as a clear answer.

[Phalaenopsis]

 

From this banter I made a conclusion that we don't know if he conjured his clothes or not. He evaded the question! And this line, haha, it had me cracking: "Do you conjure yours? Is that why they look like that?" Like what, exactly... Poor Dorian, even a demon thinks that his clothes are weird.

 

 

Cole bathes? Seriously?

 

I don't know, I figured that if he doesn't eat or sleep, then his body doesn't function as a normal body and wouldn't produce odours. On another hand, it bleeds... But then again, there was banter about it with Dorian who asked if Cole bleeds just because he thinks he should, and again Cole evaded the question in a similar manner. Although I suppose evasion is just my interpretation, I can see that you interprete a similar case as a clear answer.

Hehe, I love his banter with Dorian. Like the other one where he thinks his clothes are as shiny as the Fade...

 

He does state his clothes are real here though. But I agree his answer can be interpreted differently. And he does evade the "bleeding" question indeed...

[VelvetV]

Hehe, I love his banter with Dorian. Like the other one where he thinks his clothes are as shiny as the Fade...

I love Cole's banter with Vivienne the most. It's so amusing! I can see why some people hate her, but I find her attitude extremely funny in banters. With others, too, it's a feat to manage someone like Iron Bull to address someone so respectfully.

 

Although Cole is really clueless... He can read thoughts, but can't read when Vivienne speaks about him in particular. There were at least two cases I heard when he mistook her words about him for words about Solas and even nugs. I guess mind-reading is overrated. Or very slow

 

But those were good jokes.

[Phalaenopsis]

 

Although Cole is really clueless... He can read thoughts, but can't read when Vivienne speaks about him in particular. There were at least two cases I heard when he mistook her words about him for words about Solas and even nugs. I guess mind-reading is overrated. Or very slow

 

But those were good jokes.

Yes! Those ones were excellent too! 

 

I wouldn't say he's clueless but my interpretation to his misunderstandings takes us back to your original question: I suppose reading minds for Cole is like reading a difficult text for us (I did literature studies that's why it rings a bell to me): you can't understand it properly if you lack the experience/knowledge to interpret it the way you should. That's why I always choose the "human" path. Apparently it's the best way for him to actually learn how to interpret people's thoughts more accurately.

[VelvetV]

I wouldn't say he's clueless but my interpretation to his misunderstandings takes us back to your original question: I suppose reading minds for Cole is like reading a difficult text for us (I did literature studies that's why it rings a bell to me): you can't understand it properly if you lack the experience/knowledge to interpret it the way you should. That's why I always choose the "human" path. Apparently it's the best way for him to actually learn how to interpret people's thoughts more accurately.

 

Your words make me doubt my choice again. Or rather regret that understanding is only possible for someone who is more like those he understands.

 

But really, upon trying to picture myself in the game and thinking what I'd do if it was real, I realized that I could never inflict physical suffering on someone who wasn't originally bound by it. Not if there was an alternative choice. I hate physical suffering. Diseases, slow decay and aging, and I'd be responsible? No way, guilt would be killing me.

 

Although I can only say that because I know it's about physicality\spirituality choice, while that moment with finding a templar didn't provide much clues about it. It was simply: let him do what he wants (killing) or try to dissuade. Even so, I'm sure that my first reaction would be to calm him down, just because I'd be shocked with sudden fury and would feel sad that such pure compassion was suddenly gone. I'd want it back. But I'm not sure I wouldn't allow him to kill the templar eventually, if he really insisted and the templar showed no remorse.

 

In another game I did just that, no spoilers as to which one that was, because it would be a huge spoiler, but I thought the guy was justified to take revenge, even if I personally disagreed with such approach. But it wasn't me who was wronged, it was him, and I decided to respect his own decision. It really wasn't my business to preach to him.

[midnight tea]

I love Cole's banter with Vivienne the most. It's so amusing! I can see why some people hate her, but I find her attitude extremely funny in banters. With others, too, it's a feat to manage someone like Iron Bull to address someone so respectfully.

 

Although Cole is really clueless... He can read thoughts, but can't read when Vivienne speaks about him in particular. There were at least two cases I heard when he mistook her words about him for words about Solas and even nugs. I guess mind-reading is overrated. Or very slow

 

That's the thing about spirits, it seems - they have a unique perspective, but that doesn't mean that that perspective isn't limited. In many ways this remind me of people with savant syndrome - they are exceedingly brilliant at one particular thing, but at expense of understanding complexity in other areas of life.

[Phalaenopsis]

Your words make me doubt my choice again. Or rather regret that understanding is only possible for someone who is more like those he understands.

 

But really, upon trying to picture myself in the game and thinking what I'd do if it was real, I realized that I could never inflict physical suffering on someone who wasn't originally bound by it. Not if there was an alternative choice. I hate physical suffering. Diseases, slow decay and aging, and I'd be responsible? No way, guilt would be killing me.

 

Although I can only say that because I know it's about physicality\spirituality choice, while that moment with finding a templar didn't provide much clues about it. It was simply: let him do what he wants (killing) or try to dissuade. Even so, I'm sure that my first reaction would be to calm him down, just because I'd be shocked with sudden fury and would feel sad that such pure compassion was suddenly gone. I'd want it back. But I'm not sure I wouldn't allow him to kill the templar eventually, if he really insisted and the templar showed no remorse.

 

In another game I did just that, no spoilers as to which one that was, because it would be a huge spoiler, but I thought the guy was justified to take revenge, even if I personally disagreed with such approach. But it wasn't me who was wronged, it was him, and I decided to respect his own decision. It really wasn't my business to preach to him.

I agree the choices we had for his personal quest seemed pretty limited. I didn't see how frogiveness should be for spirits only and a more deadly response more human. Humans are capable of forgiveness too and spirits/demons can be pretty harmful...

 

Anyways, I understand your reluctance to have him suffer human pains when it could be avoided but - and I may be repeating myself - as I see it, allowing him to be more human is like giving birth: you know your child will eventually suffer and die. That's the part of life we all have to live with...

Once again, any choice has its advantages and drawbacks. You only have to choose what drawbacks are redhibitory for you.

[VelvetV]

That's the thing about spirits, it seems - they have a unique perspective, but that doesn't mean that that perspective isn't limited. In many ways this remind me of people with savant syndrome - they are exceedingly brilliant at one particular thing, but at expense of understanding complexity in other areas of life.

 

Come to think of that, it's a bit similar.

 

I have a friend with a moderate autistic spectrum personality disorder, and he often manages to come off as rude and thoughtless to people.

 

Just to give an example, he once invited a middle-aged guy to lunch and offered to take two young girls they both knew along. That guy was married. Awkward. But when he saw the guy's reaction, he was really surprised and assumed that he was having dirty thoughts all along, otherwise how could he ever come up with a crazy idea of having an affair with them in the first place?

 

That happens all the time. He just can't correctly read people or predict what they think, because he doesn't think the way they do. Misinterpretations abound. Some people like him for unique perspective and find it oddly charming, but most assume that he is being rude and inconsiderate.

 

P.S. It's kind of similar to how Cole voices everyone's personal thoughts without understanding that they don't want them to be voiced. Pretty rude.

[Phalaenopsis]

 

 

 

P.S. It's kind of similar to how Cole voices everyone's personal thoughts without understanding that they don't want them to be voiced. Pretty rude.

 

It has been said somewhere that Cole might be the writers' way to put a character with ASPD in the game...

[midnight tea]

Yeah, he even says at one point if you ask him (when he's human) that now he understands that things he sometimes says around Cullen may make him unconformable.

[VelvetV]

It has been said somewhere that Cole might be the writers' way to put a character with ASPD in the game...

 

I hope not. It's really not all that similar. At least my friend has no problem understanding how the world of things works (he is considered to be somewhat of genius), he has problems only with understanding subtle communication cues. As if completely blind to them. The closest portrait to him is Sherlock in British "Sherlock" series. Cole, on another hand, doesn't even know that Cullen's clothes come off. And otherwise, it just feels not similar in many ways.

 

If BW really wanted to introduce someone with ASPD in their game, I wish they did it directly, without beautifying the concept by calling it a spirit who got lost in the human world. I think that's pretty insulting for people who actually have ASPD. Although I don't really know, it's possible my friend wouldn't care, but I feel insulted on his behalf

[Korva]

On the other hand I found it strange he didn't know Cullen's armor could come off during the Wicked Grace cutscene. Doesn't he take off his own clothes before putting on his fighting gear?? (or to take a bath once in a while... ><)

 

I wonder if he wasn't maybe referring to Cullen's mental/emotional armor. The guy's a workaholic with PTSD and severe withdrawal symptoms, he probably keeps himself bottled up something fierce most of the time. Here he jokes and tells stories and laughs and has a complete ball (until he gets a little too competetive with the wrong person ). It might be the first time in years that he's had some honest to goodness fun and stopped thinking about matters of rank and duty for a few hours.

 

Good point. I haven't been paying attention to that before. It would surely be nice if some characters took interest in our main char, too, although our char is such a blank slate that it would be difficult, she would require being someone more defined for that. I wonder if that's the reason it isn't happening.

 

It would be difficult, yes, but I think it would add a lot to these games if we had more RP options and to define and express our character's thoughts and emotions. The options we get are usually very shallow. And if we could roleplay a little better, we could actually have mutually curious/supportive conversations with the companions. So much happens to our characters, it's baffling that we can almost never actually react to any of it on a personal level.

 

Seriously, though, I suspect his writer read a book, envisioned a slightly changed character and pictured his future as a human path, that's why spirit path has such odd jarring moments.

 

If memory serves, Patrick Weekes added the spirit path after changing his mind about humanity as the sole "win condition". I'm very glad he did it, and overall I'm absolutely delighted with it, but there are a few moments where I wonder a little if the two options really are equal in the writers' minds. Like ending the spirit-path resolution with Varric being such a downer and us not even being able to challenge the attitude that Cole is somehow less than a person. (Solas, as much as I occasionally want to dress him down for his attitude problems, handles not getting his way in Cole's quest much better than Varric does.)

[VelvetV]

I wonder if he wasn't maybe referring to Cullen's mental/emotional armor. 

That would make sense. But I kind of find it hard to believe that Bioware's joke had something so deep behind it

 

Oh btw, not everything is so bad with companions showing concern! I was taking a party through the temple in Forbidden Oasis, and when my char opened the tombstone and some freaky lights entered into her, Cole suddenly asked "Did it hurt?" I was like: " , you actually care?!" And then I was: Wait a minute, for someone who can directly sense people's pain that was an awfully strange question..

 

It's amazing how in trying to do something right the game did something wrong! 

 

It would be difficult, yes, but I think it would add a lot to these games if we had more RP options and to define and express our character's thoughts and emotions. The options we get are usually very shallow. And if we could roleplay a little better, we could actually have mutually curious/supportive conversations with the companions. So much happens to our characters, it's baffling that we can almost never actually react to any of it on a personal level.

 

Definitely agreed. Maybe we'll get there one day, as there are I think many people who'd love more developed roleplaying with party. I know some who don't, but they typically don't play games like DA:I, thinking that such games are moving in the "Sims" direction. I see nothing wrong with that. As the gaming industry develops, it's only natural that characters become more developed in games that heavily rely on them to draw people in. And there are plenty RPGs with underdeveloped characters or without a party to satisfy those who dislike that.

 

I'm trying to remember if there are games with characters who show concern back at the main char. Ok, here's one example of a dialogue that creates connection between characters that I really like. The Japanese really know how to do that. Although the game has more dialogue where characters chatter about themselves, there are some shining moments like this:

Spoiler

https://youtu.be/ekGr7GIGAsI?t=529

Oh, what I wouldn't give for such a moment with Cassandra! Or Cole. They don't even show or tell what exactly your own char is saying, but that doesn't even matter. The feeling of being the focus of attention is there. They're already good friends at that point, and I remember being surprised about this scene, it felt so meaningful, if a little bit ominous.

.

If memory serves, Patrick Weekes added the spirit path after changing his mind about humanity as the sole "win condition".

 

 

I'd be delighted to hear his reasoning. Well, a girl can dream

 

Like ending the spirit-path resolution with Varric being such a downer and us not even being able to challenge the attitude that Cole is somehow less than a person.

 

Yep I remember wanting to smack Varric at that moment or pull his ears, that was just mean of him to say!  I don't really understand Varric's reasoning, he sort of believes that a spirit is less conscious or self-aware. But I really couldn't see much difference in Cole's behavior, just more "mind-reading power" and a little bit of euphoria about the change.

[VelvetV]

I think the Cullen armor thing is a running gag. Cole is surprised he can remove it, Josie wants to make him wear something instead of armor for once, etc... 

 

Oh, will anyone enlighten me why Sera was shown below the table after card game and what the hell did she see there?! 

 

I remember her always mentioning how she loves to steal trousers, too, but I suppose I'm just thinking dirty. 

[VelvetV]

I think I know what's bugging me about this choice most and how it could be fixed.

 

In DA:O I had no idea that I hardened Leliana and softened Alistaire. It was that smooth and unobtrusive. I only learnt about it much later when it turned out that in some people's games Alistaire wanted to be king. And I never regretted that I helped him retain his belief in family values, because I know that I did it naturally. The same for Leliana. No regrets. In DA:I Leliana choice was handled well, too, I had no idea I softened her until she suddenly changed personality. The change was too sudden, but that's another issue altogether. It's important that the scene at the chantry church was smooth enough for me not to notice that I was influencing anything at the moment it was going on.

 

Cole's fate seems to be the only character altering choice so far that throws itself rudely in our faces. It could be made better if explaining lines like "Cole will become more like a spirit. Amulet should work" were removed. I think it's possible I'd get stuck at this moment even if I did not see those lines, but certainly not for long, because I wouldn't know it was such a grand choice until after-the-fact. Choosing smoothly would feel better than knowing that this moment is so pivotal and the choice is final. What if it was just a step between choices and there were more to follow to complete the quest? We wouldn't know, and it would feel a lot more natural not to know how final the choice was. In my opinion.

 

Unless I fail to remember, all other character altering choices in DA:I and DA:O were smooth. Just imagine if at the chantry you were told "Kill sister - Leliana becomes a more effective, ruthless spymaster and the main candidate for the Divine" and "Spare sister - Leliana remembers her younger brighter self and leaves Inquisition immediately". I altered the choices to make them sound like both have big advantages and big disadvantages, a la Cole's choice. What would we do? We'd pause the game and start googling and agonizing over what to choose!

 

On a side note, in Cole's choice we aren't told nearly enough, only that it's possible for him to be more spirit or more human and that there should be no problem with binding in both cases. We even have to discuss whether it's possible for him to get physical enough to get diseases and aging on the forum, and in this thread people expressed different opinions on that, so there's no canon. Consequences weren't being fairly laid out to us in the game, not even after the choice. For such an intrusive choice it's presented in an uncomfortably blind manner.

[midnight tea]

Cole has had been confused and on the crossroads this entire time, so I'm not really sure it can be told that it throws itself at our faces. 

 

As for not being told nearly enough... well, that could be said of other choices as well. I kinda hope that at least some of our "uncertain" choices will have interesting consequences later. Iron Bull's choice in his personal quest is not as balanced as Cole's - it's kinda obvious which choice is better, yet I still wonder what will happen next. Same with stopping Solas from killing stupid mages after what they did to his friend... uh, what of those mages show up to do something stupid again >.>?

 

On a side note... I always have to laugh at one particular moment in Cole's quest, after finding the amulet for him - they approach Solas and I can't help but to always pick 2nd option from dialogue tree "You know it's not going to work, right? It never just works."

 

His response? "Have faith, Inquisitor"

Oh that's just rich, Solas - a declared fatalist with little faith in anything tells my Inquisitor to stop being such a pessimist xDDD Always makes me laugh.

[Patchwork]

Cole has had been confused and on the crossroads this entire time, so I'm not really sure it can be told that it throws itself at our faces. 

 

As for not being told nearly enough... well, that could be said of other choices as well. I kinda hope that at least some of our "uncertain" choices will have interesting consequences later. Iron Bull's choice in his personal quest is not as balanced as Cole's - it's kinda obvious which choice is better, yet I still wonder what will happen next. Same with stopping Solas from killing stupid mages after what they did to his friend... uh, what of those mages show up to do something stupid again >.>?

 

On a side note... I always have to laugh at one particular moment in Cole's quest, after finding the amulet for him - they approach Solas and I can't help but to always pick 2nd option from dialogue tree "You know it's not going to work, right? It never just works."

 

His response? "Have faith, Inquisitor"

Oh that's just rich, Solas - a declared fatalist with little faith in anything tells my Inquisitor to stop being such a pessimist xDDD Always makes me laugh.

 

It's obvious which choice the game wants you to make in Iron Bull's quest but I wouldn't say it's better. Killing the mages is very similar to Cole's human or spirit choice in that an argument can be made either way.

 

With Cole I choose Spirit because it's what he is and I've a growing distaste for Pinocchio stories. I never brought Varric's version of why Cole crossed over the Veil, to me a spirit of compassion was desperate to help a boy dying in the darkness it was never about being human. The spirit path can be clunky but Cole needed to let go of human!Cole's pain because being defined by one person's hurt is a cage and it was preventing him from truly being himself.  

[midnight tea]

It is better. Companions react to it better, Bull is better - even his writer, if you listen to interview on NerdAppropriate, isn't really hiding which one is better, for him, personally. Whether it's good for Inquisition to ditch the alliance is a somewhat different question, but I'd say that there are more than a few reasons to steer clear from the Qun and having an active Qunari spy in Inquisition.

 

As for mages... well no, it isn't like Cole's choice. It also doesn't really have any effect on Solas, other than he either approves or disapproves it. Question is whether this will have some sort of ramifications later.

 

As for Cole - considering that "spirits wish to join the living" (as Solas explains), I don't think it can be said that Cole was just a spirit of compassion desperate to help a dying boy. Compassion has been drawn to the human world, whether out of curiosity or empathy - he wants to help people of Thedas, and I don't really think it matters to him what he is, as long as he can help. He even says it at one point - helping is what he does. THAT's what making it "himself". Whether it's a spirit or more human form, appears to be irrelevant for him.

[midnight tea]

@midnight_tea I also laugh at when Cole says he wants to go somewhere else to use the Amulet because he likes the tavern (and doesn't want anything bad to happen there) and chooses Solas' room. 

 

Good point xD Though, to be fair, I think he picked Solas because not only he knows spirits, but also is powerful enough to defend himself or managed to control the situation in case bad stuff began to happen.