Guest_Mlady_*
Good point xD Though, to be fair, I think he picked Solas because not only he knows spirits, but also is powerful enough to defend himself or managed to control the situation in case bad stuff began to happen.
I agree but it's just funny how it cuts to Solas' room after he states he wants to use it elsewhere. Lol
Guest_Mlady_*
It is better. Companions react to it better, Bull is better - even his writer, if you listen to interview on NerdAppropriate, isn't really hiding which one is better, for him, personally. Whether it's good for Inquisition to ditch the alliance is a somewhat different question, but I'd say that there are more than a few reasons to steer clear from the Qun and having an active Qunari spy in Inquisition.
As for mages... well no, it isn't like Cole's choice. It also doesn't really have any effect on Solas, other than he either approves or disapproves it. Question is whether this will have some sort of ramifications later.
As for Cole - considering that "spirits wish to join the living" (as Solas explains), I don't think it can be said that Cole was just a spirit of compassion desperate to help a dying boy. Compassion has been drawn to the human world, whether out of curiosity or empathy - he wants to help people of Thedas, and I don't really think it matters to him what he is, as long as he can help. He even says it at one point - helping is what he does. THAT's what making it "himself". Whether it's a spirit or more human form, appears to be irrelevant for him.
Yeah good point. I think it's a bit of both. He became the Cole that the dying one wanted to be, but after forgetting all that, then rediscovering himself after nearly becoming a demon, he remembered what he was and wanted to remain to continue helping. And he tells Dorian what he looks like doesn't matter. He just wants to help.
He's safe no matter what choice, but they cut a third option that had him kill the Templar and become binded to Corypheus and betray you
Oh, so that was the third option? It makes sense, I wish they didn't cut it. I'd feel a lot more justified to make a choice then. It's just that my natural inclination, if the game wasn't forcing choice on, would be to do nothing 
Whenever I don't know what to do I prefer to let the person in question to decide on his own. And what a huge shock the result would be, haha.
And he said his body had always been human. He ate, drank and slept in Asunder.
Yet he can't eat at a cafe in Val Royeaux. I don't even know what to think of all this... But since in the end of Asunder he realized he was a demon, maybe that's why he stopped eating? 
It seems so arbitrary and super easy. Realizes self a demon, stops eating. Works out anger, starts eating. Ugh. So unrealistic that even magic can't explain it. I guess I still don't quite believe that a spirit from the Fade can take a human form, not only as hallucination, but physically enough to eat. I'd love to have at least some small explanation of where he conjures a physical body from!
With Cole I choose Spirit because it's what he is and I've a growing distaste for Pinocchio stories.
Are there many of those? I guess I've never encountered any before.
I feel sad about him being a spirit anyway, even if I chose it. Mostly because as the game presents it, noone can see him anymore. Before that, people could see him, they just forgot him. Then they come to Val Royeux and people don't see him by default. Companions aren't relevant, it can be called a necessity for the flow of the game that they can always see and remember him. In the book it was a huge problem for him that people couldn't.
Now, maybe a spirit wouldn't care, but what if would? It can be lonely like this. Although I suppose he can always leave to the Fade in this case and try his luck there. 
Yet he can't eat at a cafe in Val Royeaux. I don't even know what to think of all this... But since in the end of Asunder he realized he was a demon, maybe that's why he stopped eating?
It seems so arbitrary and super easy. Realizes self a demon, stops eating. Works out anger, starts eating. Ugh. So unrealistic that even magic can't explain it. I guess I still don't quite believe that a spirit from the Fade can take a human form, not only as hallucination, but physically enough to eat. I'd love to have at least some small explanation of where he conjures a physical body from!
Well, I think it has more to do with illustrating the power of mind and will in world of Thedas. That is, that self-imposed limitations or discarding of those can change people (uh, beings), even physically, to a point where it all becomes pretty much a matter of someone's state of mind - especially of someone as undecided about his identity or nature as Cole.
feel sad about him being a spirit anyway, even if I chose it. Mostly because as the game presents it, noone can see him anymore. Before that, people could see him, they just forgot him. Then they come to Val Royeux and people don't see him by default. Companions aren't relevant, it can be called a necessity for the flow of the game that they can always see and remember him. In the book it was a huge problem for him that people couldn't.
Now, maybe a spirit wouldn't care, but what if would? It can be lonely like this. Although I suppose he can always leave to the Fade in this case and try his luck there.
I have yet 2 other concerns about making Cole a spirit again.
A. If he eventually goes back to the Fade, he'd becomes likely to be bound again, just like Solas's friend we help. That bothers me a little knowing how much he's afraid of being bound. It doesn't seem a logical choice of his, to me.
But I understand that can be easily argued.
B. (And that's more of a "technical" matter) What happens if he removes the amulet? He may take it off once in a while for whatever reason, or it could get lost or stolen... I feel being dependent on a token is really a weakness that could be used against him by somebody malevolent.
I think the game implies pretty heavily that spirits are more fragile and susceptible to corrupting (or "corrupting") influences than humans - they're creatures from realm shaped by will and emotions and so they can be very easily twisted or adapt to human expectation (as explained, again, by Solas). They are also pretty simple/naive/childlike creatures who probably just don't have defense mechanisms against such influence.
[...]
It's different for humans and other races in Thedas - they live in a world were such simple existence is pretty much impossible. Hence they're beings who are more complex. That makes them less pure than spirits, but also less prone to total corruption or sudden shifts in one's personality. Oh sure, they're also more prone to evil or gray-area behavior, but at their core they're actually more resilient to external world as well as will of others.
That is the contrast, yeah. Different kinds of vulnerability. I agree with you, I just think it's worth pointing out that humans/mortals have weaknesses too. It's a bit of a knee-jerk thing for me, admittedly, because I've seen so much hostility for and thoughtless dismissal of the spirit-path. (Less of that on this forum, thankfully.) 
It makes finding discussions and fics about the little guy that I can enjoy really hard.
Though given things like demagogues, hero worship and mob mentality, I'd still sometimes rather take my chances with a demon than with people when it comes to being influenced by the will of others. There are moments in Inquisition that are, on one hand, supposed to feel awesome and mood-bolstering, but on the other hand made me think "Sh*t, what might happen if the Inquisitor wasn't a good person but someone who saw this adoration as their due and gleefully used it to whip these people into a murderous, mindless frenzy?"
Cole has had been confused and on the crossroads this entire time, so I'm not really sure it can be told that it throws itself at our faces.
Yes, it's quite obvious at times. When I first did his quest I was dismayed by both options because both felt they like diminished him in some way, and damn it, I love the little guy so why do I have to do that? Then I tried to kick my own ass for being selfish because I remembered that he's in pain, and not "only" that acute anger at the templar and fear of being bound, but he's been trying to find his place and figure himself out all along. All that needs healing, one way or the other, even if it means he's not quite the same as before.
Same with stopping Solas from killing stupid mages after what they did to his friend... uh, what of those mages show up to do something stupid again >.>?
Ugh, yes, that was the perfect example of a badly done binary choice. That trio is a menace and I'm sure the "what if" is more of a "how long until". I wish there was an option to take them into custody or something.
Oh that's just rich, Solas - a declared fatalist with little faith in anything tells my Inquisitor to stop being such a pessimist xDDD Always makes me laugh.
Aw, I should try that. 
Maybe he's trying to put on a brave face for Cole's sake? Cole does bring out the best in him in a really touching way, sometimes.
Guest_Mlady_*
Oh, so that was the third option? It makes sense, I wish they didn't cut it. I'd feel a lot more justified to make a choice then. It's just that my natural inclination, if the game wasn't forcing choice on, would be to do nothing
Yet he can't eat at a cafe in Val Royeaux. I don't even know what to think of all this... But since in the end of Asunder he realized he was a demon, maybe that's why he stopped eating?
It seems so arbitrary and super easy. Realizes self a demon, stops eating. Works out anger, starts eating. Ugh. So unrealistic that even magic can't explain it. I guess I still don't quite believe that a spirit from the Fade can take a human form, not only as hallucination, but physically enough to eat. I'd love to have at least some small explanation of where he conjures a physical body from!
I think when he found out he wasn't human, he stopped living as one. Basically all he thought he was in Asunder was a lie, so he stopped believing the lie and embraced what he really was, and spirits don't eat.
I have yet 2 other concerns about making Cole a spirit again.
A. If he eventually goes back to the Fade, he'd becomes likely to be bound again, just like Solas's friend we help. That bothers me a little knowing how much he's afraid of being bound. It doesn't seem a logical choice of his, to me.
But I understand that can be easily argued.
B. (And that's more of a "technical" matter) What happens if he removes the amulet? He may take it off once in a while for whatever reason, or it could get lost or stolen... I feel being dependent on a token is really a weakness that could be used against him by somebody malevolent.
That is a pretty good argument! If we try to do what Cole himself really wants, then the only desire he clearly voiced is not to be bound and made corrupt, no matter how.
My only issue with that is lack of clarity during the choice. Even the option stated "the amulet might not be necessary". What do they mean by "might"? Without prior knowledge it sounds unreliable.
But it's a really good argument, regardless. Why do you have to be so convincing even though I already made a choice?
Well, I think it has more to do with illustrating the power of mind and will in world of Thedas. That is, that self-imposed limitations or discarding of those can change people (uh, beings), even physically, to a point where it all becomes pretty much a matter of someone's state of mind - especially of someone as undecided about his identity or nature as Cole.
That makes sense! Maybe that's how it is for spirits (since we didn't see humans transforming into spirits yet) in Thedas.
I'd prefer if no physical transformation was involved, though, only psyche. Physical is still sort of unrealistic, at least I personally have it hard trying to accept that creation of matter out of thin air can be possible even in Thedas. Wait a second, is Cole... Maker? So that's what he is, haha! He just made himself forget! 
Now, that explains his abilities to create matter out of nothing! And why Golden City was created in the Fade, of all places: it housed a spirit dwelling in the Fade! Your true identity is out, Cole... 
Basically all he thought he was in Asunder was a lie, so he stopped believing the lie and embraced what he really was, and spirits don't eat.
I find it funny how we can accomplish a complete reversal of that realization of truth in the game.
Guest_Mlady_*
I find it funny how we can accomplish a complete reversal of that realization of truth in the game.
As Solas said, it's complex. Lol
We do indeed think alike.
Good to know we think alike on this. Cassandra's friendship scene in the war room ends like that, too, with the two of them leaning against that window and looking contently at each other and into the future. That is one of my favourite moments in the game.
That would make sense. But I kind of find it hard to believe that Bioware's joke had something so deep behind it
Fans reading more into something than the writers intended isn't unusual, at least. 
And Cole is a character who positively invites you to "go deep".
Oh btw, not everything is so bad with companions showing concern! I was taking a party through the temple in Forbidden Oasis, and when my char opened the tombstone and some freaky lights entered into her, Cole suddenly asked "Did it hurt?" I was like: "
, you actually care?!" And then I was: Wait a minute, for someone who can directly sense people's pain that was an awfully strange question..
It's amazing how in trying to do something right the game did something wrong!
Ha! Indeed, the fact that one random party member will react to that was a positive surprise, but Cole asking if it hurt was a bit odd. I did appreciate the concern, though, and his curiously content reply of me being shinier where not everyone can see actually made me chuckle.
Definitely agreed. Maybe we'll get there one day, as there are I think many people who'd love more developed roleplaying with party. I know some who don't, but they typically don't play games like DA:I, thinking that such games are moving in the "Sims" direction. I see nothing wrong with that. As the gaming industry develops, it's only natural that characters become more developed in games that heavily rely on them to draw people in. And there are plenty RPGs with underdeveloped characters or without a party to satisfy those who dislike that.
I'm trying to remember if there are games with characters who show concern back at the main char. Ok, here's one example of a dialogue that creates connection between characters that I really like.
Oh, what I wouldn't give for such a moment with Cassandra! Or Cole.
Yep I remember wanting to smack Varric at that moment or pull his ears, that was just mean of him to say!
My word. Yes, both solutions to Cole's quest are supposed to be bittersweet, but this felt like the wrong way to convey that and made Varric look like a tosser instead.
Though I must admit that this line and some of the human-path banters annoy me on a very personal level, so I'm not unbiased. Themes like "there's only one way to be a proper person (and you're not it)", making fun of someone else's discomfort with body issues, or the assumption of automatic and obligatory (hetero)sexuality and how it will "fix" you squick me out something fierce, and not being able to offer the slightest objection to any of it only adds to that. I get it, it's supposed to be light-hearted and harmless, but being on the receiving end of this sort of thing can be anything but that.
I feel sad about him being a spirit anyway, even if I chose it. Mostly because as the game presents it, noone can see him anymore. Before that, people could see him, they just forgot him. Then they come to Val Royeux and people don't see him by default. Companions aren't relevant, it can be called a necessity for the flow of the game that they can always see and remember him. In the book it was a huge problem for him that people couldn't.
As far as I understand, back then he had no control over it because of how messed up and confused he was, and it frightened him because he had no idea what he was? That isn't true anymore. People might still forget him of their own accord (the whole "they already want to forget me" deal), but he also has more options when it comes to how he helps and interacts -- and he's secure now in who and what he is, so he doesn't need others to reassure him that he won't just stop existing.
Guest_Mlady_*
Good to know we think alike on this.
Yes! I love that moment too. It's so warm and comforting, same with the final scene with her on the battlements. Her, Cole and Dorian are my besties in my playthroughs.
These two top my own list of companions I want more, and more mutual, quality time with, yes.
We have the same favorites. I admire their personalities: champions of kindness in the middle of a rotten world. 
Though I must admit that this line and some of the human-path banters annoy me on a very personal level, so I'm not unbiased. Themes like "there's only one way to be a proper person (and you're not it)", making fun of someone else's discomfort with body issues, or the assumption of automatic and obligatory (hetero)sexuality and how it will "fix" you squick me out something fierce, and not being able to offer the slightest objection to any of it only adds to that. I get it, it's supposed to be light-hearted and harmless, but being on the receiving end of this sort of thing can be anything but that.
I think that if they changed the word "person" to "human", it would be a lot better. When Varric talks about persons, it sounds like he rudely implies that Cole is a creature that lacks awareness, like someone with half a brain or permanently drunk and in a haze. I'm not sure that it's what the writers actually tried to convey! Cole surely has no less awareness than everyone else. Maybe the writers wanted to write "human" initially, then remembered that we have dwarves, qunari, elves, and changed it to "person"? Although I'm grasping a straw here, since why would a dwarf want a spirit to be "human"? But I guess it would be even more awkward for Varric to say "Could've been a dwarf", and so instead he says "person", and that sounds terribly wrong.
As far as I understand, back then he had no control over it because of how messed up and confused he was, and it frightened him because he had no idea what he was? That isn't true anymore. People might still forget him of their own accord (the whole "they already want to forget me" deal), but he also has more options when it comes to how he helps and interacts -- and he's secure now in who and what he is, so he doesn't need others to reassure him that he won't just stop existing.
You know I have been pondering this for a while.
Spirits and alike in the waking world have solid form, their bodies actually exist there beyond being a matter of belief or will.
So I've been wondering what the effects of certain substances on these physical forms would lead to.
Which substances?
Which substances?
Red lyrium to name one.
Probably no effect at all, since demons in DA2 gladly hang around the place where the red lyrium originated from and neither there nor anywhere in DAI do they show any form of red lyrium corruption? Imshael also deals with the stuff pretty frequently and is the only thing in his strongold that doesn't seem to be affected at all.
Probably no effect at all, since demons in DA2 gladly hang around the place where the red lyrium originated from and neither there nor anywhere in DAI do they show any form of red lyrium corruption? Imshael also deals with the stuff pretty frequently and is the only thing in his strongold that doesn't seem to be affected at all.
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